If SHTF, you would have to make your own black powder which is easier said than done. You would have to convert your AR-15 into a single shot muzzleloader. Potassium nitrate requires you to piss on some maneur pinestraw and shit for about a year because saltpeter doesn't occur naturally, and you would also need sulfur, but unless you live next to a volcano you can't get it naturally. Charcoal is the only easy ingredient in this. Smokeless? Don't even think about it.
I would prefer something that can both kill from a distance, has a high capacity and doesn't require any powder propellants (be it propellants or primers). My best guess would be picrel (centrifugal machine gun, basically a glorified slingshot) but even then, it's prettt fucking inaccurate. I watched Joerg Sprave a lot and he was talking about using a motor bike motor for it. What are your thoughts on this? Practical or what?
I'd use compressed wood gas or ethanol, not everything has to be powder anon
>If SHTF, you would have to make your own black powder
OR, consider this, just conserve the ammo I already have. If I'm not getting into gunfights daily and I'm not shooting when it's not strictly necessary because buying ammo is no longer possible, I have enough ammo to last the rest of my life. If I am getting into gunfights daily, my life expectancy is probably short enough I still have enough ammo for the rest of my life.
Moreover if you do get into gunfights regularly, and you survive, you’ll also find more ammo, so you still have enough ammunition left.
And if you survive long enough for normalcy to be re-established, then you can buy ammo again. Since the vast majority of potential SHTF scenarios are only temporary, you’re really only likely to need to ration bullets for maybe several years at most before the situation changes.
Talking about “muh black powder, hehehe your normie AR is useless” and all that shit is mostly autistic gayry from fallout: escape from mad max hobo fantasists.
Even if it went on for the rest of my natural life somehow, the only possible situations are "I'm shooting little enough I can conserve my ammo for longer than I'll be alive", "I'm losing a gunfight and will be too dead to need more ammo", or "I'm winning a gunfight and will get more ammo from the loser". The only way I'd run out of ammo, even with a relatively modest starting supply, is if I was shooting for fun as if ammo was still readily available.
>get into a gunfight, easily win because the other guy only shot his gun once
>loot his corpse
>shitty homemade black powder and a $110 BP muzzleloader
what now, mr. smart guy? black powder wins again
Then you got shitty black powder without having to make it. And can use it after you run out of real ammo. Which, with any responsible rationing of a modest supply should be never.
I'm assuming mad max wasteland shit where just killing everyone you encounter somehow becomes the norm because its the most ammo intensive situation. In any actually sane collapse situation that doesn't change the basic behavioral models of people overnight there's even less ammunition needed to get by.
>I'm assuming retarded fantasy land shit that has no reason to happen outside of fiction because it's the antithesis to human survival
Children like you are the reason discussion here is shit.
I'm assuming that because it's the absolute worst case scenario for burning through ammunition. Just to hammer home how little ammunition is needed even for retard tier impossible shtf scenarios. For anything based in reality a "stockpile" of 200 rounds of .308 is a lifetime supply.
>For anything based in reality a "stockpile" of 200 rounds of .308 is a lifetime supply.
Just don't practice at all.
Yes. Don't do anything to fuck up your zero and use the absolute minimum to correct your zero if you do somehow fuck it up. Plenty of hunters do fine firing a couple shots a year.
Situations where practice matters fall back into insane mad max bullshit.
>Situations where practice matters fall back into insane mad max bullshit.
This was either posted by someone who doesn't own guns, or the kind of person who thinks buying accessories for guns is an alternative to practicing and shills red dot sights for pistols.
Many successful hunters barely practice. For anything short of mad max bullshit, that's what you need ammo for post collapse. Food. A deer isn't going to outdraw you and shoot first.
>Many successful hunters barely practice.
Hunters that barely practice are why we see shit like this:
>The Sandhill studies documented 3.1 to 7.4 shots per deer bagged.
https://www.themeateater.com/wired-to-hunt/whitetail-management/how-many-shots-are-fired-for-each-deer-tagged
Which translates to bagging 27-64.5 deer bagged with those 200 rounds, assuming 100% are spent hunting with zero spent on practice or sighting in.
So easily a lifetime supply of deer starting as an adult with lifespan adjusted for medicine not being a thing anymore.
>27 deer
>a lifetime supply
Pick one.
A lifetime supply for something starting at 35 who isn't going to make it past 45 because of the whole "the things that keep people alive older are gone now" thing, absolutely. And that's at the worst case 27, the middle number of 54 is downright comfortable.
>who isn't going to make it past 45
Anon, life expectancy is the average, and is depressed by high infant mortality rates and younger people taking more risks without medical care to fix them. If you're starting at 35, then you've already passed a lot of what depresses the average life expectancy.
>the middle number of 54
>I'm not going to practice at all or even check my zero, but I'll somehow manage to land in the middle of that range
Good luck.
Even older life expectancy numbers figured some kind of access to "medicine" even if it's horrifically outdated by our standards. If there's enough of humanity left there's a village healer to visit, it's only a temporary collapse. A situation with a truly permanent collapse is a situation where you're well and truly alone.
>If there's enough of humanity left there's a village healer to visit, it's only a temporary collapse.
That's how any non fictional SHTF scenario will play out you fucking retard. Humans are social animals. The long term every man for himself bullshit that you're talking about has no reason to ever happen outside of fiction. Long term shortages or complete unavailability of shit that would be really helpful to have however is something that can happen.
Some disease with extreme contagiousness and a one in a hundred million survival rate you happen to be in the "one" side of, maybe. Something where there's no more than a few hundred people left in the world and you just chill waiting for total human extinction. But anything else, either more ammo is coming before a modest stockpile is used up, or death is coming before a modest stockpile is used up. There's just no situation where you have a need for 50k rounds saved up.
Not to discourage it, would let you have fun shooting even if there's a shortage going on and it's never going to drop in value. But if you just want to stock up for the most you could plausibly need before getting more or never needing anything again... it's not that much.
>either more ammo is coming before a modest stockpile is used up
More ammo coming doesn't mean it will be coming at a remotely reasonable price.
>There's just no situation where you have a need for 50k rounds saved up.
>there is no middle ground between just having a couple hundred rounds, and having a massive 50k round stockpile that most gun owners won't shoot in their lifetime
An outrageous price isn't really a big deal for practical use quantities of ammo. It is a big deal for anyone who enjoys shooting so it's a good if a to have a lot if you just want to shoot recreationally indefinitely.
And of course there's middle ground. My point is just that any collapse situation, from realistic ones to straight up contrived ones, isn't all that heavy on ammo. Maybe keep a couple thousand in the "only touch as a last resort" pile and everything else in the "in case I feel like shooting it later" pile.
>An outrageous price isn't really a big deal for practical use quantities of ammo.
Do you not remember what ammo was hitting in late 2020/early 2021? Ammo costing literally 10x what it used to isn't out of the question.
>lol, just walk over and loot whoever you get in a gunfight with
>no one believes anon shot in self defense afterwards
>anon gets hanged after the first gunfight because everyone thinks he's a psycho who just killed a random person for the fuck of it
>people come to hang you
>shoot them
>get even MORE ammo
>more people come to hang you
>repeat
>my life expectancy is probably short enough I still have enough ammo for the rest of my life.
*Shoots self in head*
Ever seen Lars Anderson archery videos?
But really, if you're getting into daily gun fighters you aren't going to last long. 500 rounds of hollow point pistol ammo is probably going to be a multi generational supply.
For hunting, snares. For defense, not getting into fights, running and hiding as a first option and then good aim if it it comes to shooting.
Black powder revolver and shotgun wouldn't be a bad combo to me. Again, not shooting a lot, or the difficulties in making BP isn't as insurmountable as one thinks.
>500 rounds of hollow point pistol ammo is probably going to be a multi generational supply.
Not when you include ammo to practice with.
That's what the 3k 9mm FMJ pile is for, you fucking poorfag
>3k rounds of 9mm
>enough for multiple generations of practice
Lol, even if you're putting in half the amount of yearly practice that most cops do, that's only 30 years. Do you even own guns?
If resources are as constrained as the OP's scenario, I'd wager there's no practice outside of dry fire and handful of the full metal jacket bullets people actually practice with.
Oh, and as an addendum to my previous post
The need to defend becomes easier with community. So make friends. Get them into guns if the aren't already. Get them to have more than a box on hand. Get them outside, fit and learn to track and read a map and compass. Get them to learn how to use a radio and off the grid power generation. Fortify your homes, plant gardens.
SHTF, someone gets attacked, and calls for help, everyone tracks down the threat and kills them like they're hunting via sniper ambush. Not a lot of ammo consumption there.
>Ever seen Lars Anderson archery videos
That guy who does dumb trickshots with children's bows and has never hunted anything?
>That guy who does dumb trickshots with children's bows and has never hunted anything?
Even if true, you gonna stand down range from someone even a 10th as fast slinging broad heads?
And he claims to base his info off people who did kill man and beast with bow and arrow. So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.
You're giving the benefit of the doubt to a known charlatan that everyone in the archery community thinks is a fake.
Obviously you can kill with a fucking bow and arrow but he's literally using a toy and calling himself Superman.
You fool, you'd just make a bunch of traps in a shtf situation. Don't forget where you put them, use rattraps n pipe and home made paper shot shells. There.
Not getting in a fight. Its a lose lose situations, even if you "win" you would have wasted resources than you couldn't probably replace.
Also for smokeless, don't you just need cellulose and acid?
>you would have to make your own black powder
What happened to the thousands and thousands and thousands of bullets I already own?
It's not that hard to make nitric acid if you already have Chem lab gear, anon
>If SHTF, you would have to make your own black powder which is easier said than done.
this idea is so prevalent and so retarded.
If you're worried about SHTF, go buy 1,000 rounds of ammunition for any gun. Under serious conditions, that is easily a lifetime supply. The idea that people will be making their own gunpowder is so, so stupid.
I’m a medical professional. I would simply offer my expertise and knowledge to whatever institution remained or warlord’s burgeoning empire in exchange for my life and then work to the best of my ability to make the lives of the common man endurable.
My SLR, I'm not getting into low explosives and I can easily source .308 from fudds who might want to trade something. The FAL is also so loose tolerance-wise it can sling basically any .308 loading
To survive you really need a group of people in a defensible location, and what weapon you personally have is not that relevant.
But for being alone or small group on the move my ideal setup would be: (sponsored by Ruger)
-10/22 takedown backpacker with a 3x prism and backup irons, ~5000 rounds of 22, a good amount of 10 round mags and a suppressor. This is going to be your go to for most shooting tasks. You aren’t trying to get in overt firefights for reasons discussed at length here.
-357/9mm blackhawk convertible 6.5”. It’s indestructible, doesn’t rely on magazine or moon clips, and eats 3 common types of ammo. This is your belt gun for some basic offense/defense actions and even intimidation if needed. Start with a limited amount of ammo and scrounge for more as it turns up.
-lcp 2 .22 deep concealed. This is your last ditch zap carry when everything else gets taken. Bonus that it shares ammo with your 10/22. Keep it oiled if you are swampy down there.
Very long term i’d want a flintlock bp shotgun, but don’t carry that shit around for years waiting to need it.
*unsheathes katana*
and PrepHole mocked me for doing kendo
>Joerg Sprave was talking about using a motor bike motor for it.
Ok. Let's see him build it.
If you’re not gonna just GFTO, just stockpile enough ammo for the next few decades. If your new post-SHTF government can’t make your own weapons and ammo by then, kys
Regarding making your own ammo, smokeless powder in one form or another should be doable, but pretty complex if you want to make it “from scratch”. The hard part would be making your own nitric and sulfuric acid.
I'd use a common ammo type like 9mm because rounds would become scarce. But if you mean "go to shit" as in total societal collapse you need knives and potentially bows/crossbows
i would make a bunch of traps and save ammo for food acquiring