The Columbine Question. On April 20th 1999, two perps started firing at their school.

The Columbine Question
On April 20th 1999, two perps started firing at their school. We all know the story, however within about 5 minutes there was already a police officer responding, it was Neil Gardner. By the time Neil arrived several were shot but only 2 with fatal wounds.
Neil had a shootout with one of the perpetrators at 11:24AM, the gunmen started the attack at 11:19AM.
During this shootout, he exchanged shots with gunman Eric Harris who was in the West Entrance using the doors as cover. Neil was in the parking lot behind a Blazer.
Picrel is the line of sight of the shootout, Neil is actually the one in yellow that you can see at the cars. (This photo is after the perps were dead, but it shows where it happened)
Eric Harris was 18, and was using a 9mm Hi-Point Carbine
Neil Gardner was 44 and a Jefferson County Sheriff's Deputy using a .45 Sig
The distance between them in reports is stated between 60-70 yards and that is also what Google Earth measuring comes up with.
Both traded shots and no one hit each other, but Neil reported rounds hitting the car he was using as cover, and he also hit the glass surrounding Eric.
So I ask you /k/, should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer? Or, could you have hit the shooter in this same situation? The question is important because at this time, the Library massacre had not yet begun where 10 people would be killed. Neil could potentially have saved lives.
Here is an interview with him just days after: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47AQ-rzqYsY
Ignore them calling the Hi-Point an "Assault Rifle"

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer?
    Handguns aren't supposed to be used over 10 yards in a firefight.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Handguns aren't supposed to be used over 10 yards in a firefight.
      Oh?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Dicken missed 5 out of 15 shots at 40 yards, and he was closing that distance while firing. Of the 10 that hit, iirc most were not center mass hits. 60-70yards is also significantly further than that.

        I routinely train to put rounds on a standard IPSC torso from concealment on the clock with my carry gun out to 50 yards, but I have an optic on my carry gun. I'm guessing odds are pretty fricking good Gardner didn't have an optic on his sidearm in 1999 lol.
        I'm pretty consistently a >95th percentile shooter at my local matches and haven't had any of the local cops who compete beat me in years.

        I would consider what Dicken pulled off to be a pretty extreme statistical edge case, I would consider what Gardner tried to do borderline foolhardy, essentially lobbing bullets at a building full of children. Shooting back under fire, especially accurate-enough fire to suppress you from a weapon with superior range, is brave, and he's definitely braver than every fricking cop that sat outside Uvalde jacking off while children were being slaughtered, but imagine if he'd had a squad car nearby with quick access to a patrol rifle. That's a much more compelling "what if" scenario here IMO.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >wall of cope text about how a random guy with his Glock waxing a homosexual at similar ranges doesn't count when it clearly did count because the homosexual died
          We will always remind you of how shit you are compared to him.
          he's 1:0

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            What? Are you moronic?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              yeah

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >firefight
        >shooting at a gunman who doesn't know you're there from a stable position

        props to the guy but it was an incredibly favorable situation for him.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >hasnt been to the location
          That entire food court is open as frick and the place where the gunman was is essentially the equivalent of being in a corner where you can see the entire food court and beyond it. There is no way he did not know where he was being shot from.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Handguns aren't supposed to be used over 10 yards in a firefight.
      Really now

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You absolutely nonguns jackass. Don't ever post again

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Or, could you have hit the shooter in this same situation?
    No, I would listen to what they have to say, and that's what no one did.
    75 yards is point blank even with 230 grain bowling balls. If you can reliably hit a paper plate at 25 yards it wouldn't be too much harder to hit a torso at that range but I can't say my groups won't open up on a two way range. And even getting hits wouldn't guarantee you'd incapacitate him. Even someone who's an excellent shot under pressure would have trouble reliably putting someone down with less than 30 rounds from a handgun at that range

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The Columbine guys weren't bullied you know.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        yes they were. I pull out the list of examples of bullying whenever necessary. It's well documented.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's why the anti bullying shit came out after this. What will never be addressed is the home situation, which is the real cause of the problem.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They absolutely were, if you're thinking of the narrative Dave Cullen spread in his book, its false.
        He says that E + D were "players" who were covered in girls and they were actually bullies. It's wrong, Eric and Dylan were absolutely bullied and outcasts. The thing is though, it's not the definitive reason they massacred the school.
        There is so much factors that went into why they did it, and some are still left unanswered.
        But they were bullied and to act like they weren't is wrong, but you can't really say they did what they did only because they were bullied.
        Eric moved around a lot as a kid, his dad was Air Force. That fricked him up.
        They both seem to have held some sort of nihilistic view on life and that it was ultimately trivial.
        They both spoke in their journals about how they wanted to leave an impression and legacy, instead of just killing themselves and being forgotten.
        Would we know Eric and Dylan if they just killed themselves at home?
        I personally think they both wanted to die but wanted to make a statement.
        There is so much to it though I can't type it justice.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Neither of them were bullied. They also weren't bullies. Both were mentally ill.

          Eric Harris documented his thoughts extensively in his diary and on his publicly accsessible website. He suffered from extreme narcissism and megalomania, referring to himself several times as a god. He was also ethnically israeli, which puts him as highly likely to have possessed any of a number of 200 distinct genetic neurological disorders that would have fed into his NPD.

          Dylan meanwhile, suffered from severe depression and imposter syndrome, believing himself to be fundamentally worthless and that nobody loved him or cared about him, despite coming from a privileged middle-class background and making decent grades. He also attempted and failed to commit suicide following being dumped by a girlfriend.

          The most likely scenario is that Harris plotted the entire scheme to demonstrate his "power and superiority" and strong-armed Klebold into helping him, probably with the promise of fame and finally getting to die.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Klebold never had a real steady girlfriend. He went on 1 date with a girl but it never went beyond that.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Also something I think stands out
          Eric wore USGI / Marines surplus on the day, he had a BAR belt, ALICE LC-2 Suspenders, all his pouches for ammo were military surplus used in the Marines. He was rejected from the Marines a week before Columbine because he was on antidepressants. (They were planning it for a year but that still stands out)
          Dylan was very minimal, wore standard black suspenders, little pouches for ammo, and had a shotgun shell belt around his torso.

          Eric was dressed like a soldier, because thats what he wanted to be and how he viewed the killing.
          Dylan was dressed like a serial killer / criminal (especially Mickey from Natural Born Killers), he wanted to look stylish

          Neither of them were bullied. They also weren't bullies. Both were mentally ill.

          Eric Harris documented his thoughts extensively in his diary and on his publicly accsessible website. He suffered from extreme narcissism and megalomania, referring to himself several times as a god. He was also ethnically israeli, which puts him as highly likely to have possessed any of a number of 200 distinct genetic neurological disorders that would have fed into his NPD.

          Dylan meanwhile, suffered from severe depression and imposter syndrome, believing himself to be fundamentally worthless and that nobody loved him or cared about him, despite coming from a privileged middle-class background and making decent grades. He also attempted and failed to commit suicide following being dumped by a girlfriend.

          The most likely scenario is that Harris plotted the entire scheme to demonstrate his "power and superiority" and strong-armed Klebold into helping him, probably with the promise of fame and finally getting to die.

          The "Eric mastermind" is FBI bullshit, both were just as invested in planning as the other, AND Dylan was the one who wrote about it first all the way back in 1997, its most likely he brought the idea to Eric first which is when is started to become real. Dylan was not coerced into it, he was even the more giddy and excited one while killing people.

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I mean my accuracy isn't the best already and I doubt it'd be improved with adrenaline so I'll swallow my pride and say no, I couldn't take him out if I were in his boots. Frankly I don't expect anyone to be a good shot with pistols beyond 30 yards, that's a reasonable range to practice and train at. But then again what good is training if you don't practice for extreme scenarios? Maybe we should enforce a minimum of 50 yards or even 100 yards for cops to reliably hit a man sized target with their sidearm

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Maybe we should enforce a minimum of 50 yards or even 100 yards for cops to reliably hit a man sized target with their sidearm
      95% of cops can't do that

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah they can barely do 25, maybe we should enforce some goddamn standards instead of letting any Tom, Dick, and Jerry in with just a smile and a wave

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        i would reckon that 95% of all gun owners can't do that, if not more, even on a flat range.

        Yeah they can barely do 25, maybe we should enforce some goddamn standards instead of letting any Tom, Dick, and Jerry in with just a smile and a wave

        spoiler: cops do the vast majority of their jobs without their guns ever leaving the holster. for normal patrol cops, if their gun is leaving the holster, chances are shit has gone wrong or has the high potential to go wrong.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I one-handed a water turkey at 50 yards with a .45, I will admit it was kind of a lucky shot.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            The hell is a water turkey anon? A gallon jug???

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              If tuna is chicken of the sea maybe water turkey is salmon?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Probably a goose

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    OP has clearly never tried to maintain good accuracy while being shot at

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    .45 will swirl at that range so you would never get an accurate shot.
    >45 ACP excel in the 0- to 25-yard range with a rough effective range of 50-yards or so.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I've hit roughly man sized targets at 70-80 yards with .45 ACP just fine, it's not even hard. Adrenaline from being on a two way range and not being accustomed to shooting that far had more to do with him missing than the bullets vanishing after traveling a certain distance like a video game.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    FBI Pistol qualification is 50 rounds onto a "Q" target (That's the small one on the right). Passing score is 90, each hit in the target is 2 points.
    During the course of fire, only 8 rounds are fired from 25 yards, the remainder of the qualification is at 15 and closer.
    This shootout involves a distance more than double that, and a target that's actively shooting back at you.
    Once the adrenaline dump happens, fine motor control disappears, and once you're taking fire, good stance are secondary to taking cover. I don't think any armchair warrior here would have done better.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I would have. I shoot tennis balls at the range, challenging riflemen to hit the ball after the first bounce. If you are not lifting and shooting regularly, you will not have the calm and controlled grip and squeeze and follow through. Then the 9mm runs out of gas at 60 yards so when you hear it, just focus and get it done with your .45

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Has the tennis ball ever shot back at you with a carbine?

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not with a pistol

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >So I ask you /k/, should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer?
    No.
    >Or, could you have hit the shooter in this same situation?
    Yes, same as the officer himself *could* have, but there's no guarantee to be had when you're in an active firefight against someone in concealment and cover.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Your chart just proves he could have ducked behind his car and used plunging fire to save the kids

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Man .45 is so shit lmao.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        People don't really tend to understand how much common pistol calibers drop.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >how much common pistol calibers drop.
          >common pistol calibers
          Very nice. Let's see 5.7's card.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            let’s see you shoot a 5.7 at 75 yards

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          This is why we need picrel.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            .22tcm chads rise up

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          What handgun has the irons zeroed for 50 yards?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >> Black person could have used indirect fire to engage the scumbag

      .45 ACP really is the best

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The problem was he just sat outside after that

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yep thats it. Alright he didn't hit any of the shooters in the gunfight but after that he (and the entire police response) just sat outside listenting to kids being killed.
      Never forget that Dave Sanders, the teacher who died that day was alive for 4 hours after being shot but was left to bleed out because of SWATs slow response.
      A lot of people say SWAT killed Dave Sanders that day.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I can't fault him when the doctrine at the time was different. It's the same way that before 9-11 the policy and assumption was 'be polite and quiet and don't make a fuss' with hijackers whereas now everyone actually does behave like marky mark and jump the hijacker like they're a vietnamese fricking shit.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    shit thread OP, nobody would hit him at 70 yards up hill behind cover and shooting back under the pressure of a school being massacred. dude shouldn't have wasted ammo taking those shots, could've easily used the cars to advance behind cover and run to the corner of the building that's more like 10-15 yards from the entrance. maybe even use a different entrance that isn't being defended.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I agree with this assessment of he marksmanship challenge involved and also witness the tactical decision to engage at such a range against an opponent win a shoulder fired weapon.

      The surprise is that Eric Harris didn’t hit the deputy as he clearly had the advantage of cover and a more suitable weapon for this gun fight.

      Had the deputy advanced to the side of te building where the two men can be seen standing and then pop around the corner, his odds of hitting Harris would have improved and he’d have had decent cover.

      Now it’s likely that Harris might have abandoned his position at the doors and retreated deeper into the school, but that’s conjecture.

      The sad fact of most of the cases like this is that these defectoids are there to effect a Kill Orgy, not to get in a gunfight with police, which is why so many of them suicide once armed resistance is encountered.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous
    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      > maybe even use a different entrance that isn't being defended.
      How would he know? For all he could have known, he was trading shots with a singular perpetrator. If he tries to andante with the opponents who is already covered and concealed, he’s only going to lose sight or get himself shot.
      >different entrance
      Why go to a different entrance when the bad guy is right there? This isn’t some wartime scenario, it’s an active shooting progress. The bad guy needs to be dropped ASAP. Too bad law enforcement officers are rather idiots at time who would prefer to sit behind cover with all the gear in the world while children are being shot to mincemeat.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >why go through another entrance when the guy is right there
        have you ever heard of flanking? the guy has a massive tactical disadvantage with positioning and firepower. I said he should've taken a few shots from the corner next to the entrance but he'd still be at a major disadvantage with visibility, cover, off hand shooting etc. are you saying it would be better for him to rush B through the entrance and get mowed down? Going through a window or side door to flank/catch him off guard retreating because he doesn't know where you are would be a much better plan.

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    No shot you're winning that fight. Harris was an inexperienced dumbfrick teenager, but the carbine made him a bigger threat than the massive majority of competitive pistol shooters. The .45 certainly wasn't doing him any favors against a moving target at that range. We're talking probably 0.4 second travel time with significant wind drift. ( I don't know the weather at the time, but a slight breeze would throw off a .45 by a significant margin at that range)

    If you're in a fight like this, you can only hope to God that you brought something flat shooting with a stock. All a pistol is going to do is suppress them (poorly) unless you get very lucky. You probably have 60 seconds of distraction before you're useless because you ran out of ammo, assuming you don't get hit by the gun that's an order of magnitude better at getting hits at range.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    So did was it the lmao weed number or hitlers birthday that made them choose that date?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It was meant to be April 19th to pay homage to OKC Bombing but they delayed 1 day to get more ammo.
      Might seem weird to pay homage to that but it was actually an attempted school bombing before shooting, they planted 20lb propane bombs in the Cafeteria that failed to go off so they just started shooting and charging through the school.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >beliving the official story about columbine
    try to find the FOIA on it. I found it in a book, but have never been able to find a copy online, the book had a link to the original FOIA, but the site was gone. Basically there was multiple witnesses who can confirm 5+ attackers, at least one of which was described as a mid 30s male.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hysterical women see all kinds of shit

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        glowing. trench coat mafia fbi set up for gun control. operation gladio tier

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It wasn’t just women there’s also cops who witnessed them and even excerpts of stuff they said to each other.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Eyewitnesses in general see all kinds of shit. If an eyewitness to a major event like Columbine told me the sky was blue, I’d have to double and triple check

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          The worst thing about "eyewitness accounts" is reports rarely say how long after the event account was recorded.
          I witnessed a bad accident years ago and on the night I could have given a half decent description of events, if you asked today over 20 years later it would still be an "eyewitness account" but I don't remember shit.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It doesn’t even take years. Hours or even minutes can cause major changes to what you remember. The brain has a weird tendency to remember things how it thinks it should have been remembered, not how it actually happened. And that”s even before getting into the fact that some people could just be straight up lying.

            I remember several years ago, the university in the town I was living in had a mass shooting. Every school in the county was locked down, and you had people on the news swearing up and down that they saw the guy shooting randomly at cars and pedestrians with dozens of bodies lying around.
            Not only was there NOT dozens of bodies, there wasn’t even one. Because there wasn’t a shooter. The rifle was actually just an umbrella sticking out of some guy’s backpack.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That's a really good point. I stopped two meth heads from breaking into my shed a few years ago, got a good look at both of their faces before they fricked off, but even a month later it was difficult to pick them out in a photo lineup because every worthless meth head in that town looked the same. I can't imagine how much harder it would be with the adrenaline dump of being shot at/needing to shoot back, but I came close to drawing.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It wasn’t just women there’s also cops who witnessed them and even excerpts of stuff they said to each other.

      5 attackers did a shit job then
      Why do all of the surviving witnesses have a different story?
      Also of the feds were to orchestrate a fake attack, why not also fix or censor the internal documents so FOIA wouldn’t give away the whole 5 guys (burger and fries) conspiracy?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        > Why do all of the surviving witnesses have a different story?
        The different attackers were in different parts of the building witnessed by different people and yes all were witnessed by multiple people. The 3rd was a student who was friends with the two identified shooters, the middle aged guy was also seen and described by multiple people. The 4th was only seen at a distance and was described as wearing a white t-shirt and jeans and the last was someone on a roof only one or two people saw, so may not have been an attacker
        >why allow the report out?
        Well you and no one else has heard this stuff before. And the dancing Israelis FBI report is easily found on the internet and it doesn’t mean dick.
        They really don’t have to try hard at all to hide stuff. If they simply don’t broadcast it on cable tv only an insignificant portion of the population will ever know.

        Just look at Epstein and that WAS on cable news and it meant frick all for the political system. Unironically 99.9% of the population are lemmings who don’t care.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          The reason the 4 shooter theory is a thing is because eye witness testimony is unreliable AND the shooters changed appearance.
          At the start they both wore trench coats, but Eric took his off after the very first shots were fired, and Dylan took his off about 5-10 minutes into the shooting.
          So witnesses saw 2 gunmen in trench coats, then 2 without trench coats.
          There is the source of your 4 shooter theory.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            And dyed their hair and changed their haircut?
            And the guy in the white t and jeans never entered the school, hence why no one saw him up close.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Idiots like this are stuck in their ways. Every shooting, attack, and disaster is somehow a false flag or something and nutjobs are incapable of violence (unless such incidents align with their personal views). So many shootings have accounts of multiple shooters because your average joe doesn’t shoot guns. people are more focused on GTFO rather than sticking around to get a good look of the face of the guy who’s about to shoot them. The screaming, gunshots, echos, and hysteria all amplify the excitement and confusion.

            And dyed their hair and changed their haircut?
            And the guy in the white t and jeans never entered the school, hence why no one saw him up close.

            > And the guy in the white t and jeans never entered the school
            White t-shirt and jeans. What an odd clothing combination. Surely nobody in an entire high school would wear such a thing (except phantom glowie shooters).

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >school shooters have to wear unique clothing!
              just be honest, you don’t believe anything unless MSNBC tells you to

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Dude sometimes Occam's razor is the way, I understand not trusting official narratives and there is most definitely stuff involving Columbine being covered up, but I don't think it is about more than 2 shooters.
                The cops 1000 rounds blindly into the school? That was covered up mostly. They even had a report in 2002 to determine if one of the victims was actually hit by police, that tells you they're aware of it at least.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >The cops 1000 rounds
                The cops fired 1000 rounds*

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Idiots like this are stuck in their ways. Every shooting, attack, and disaster is somehow a false flag or something and nutjobs are incapable of violence (unless such incidents align with their personal views). So many shootings have accounts of multiple shooters because your average joe doesn’t shoot guns. people are more focused on GTFO rather than sticking around to get a good look of the face of the guy who’s about to shoot them. The screaming, gunshots, echos, and hysteria all amplify the excitement and confusion.
                [...]
                > And the guy in the white t and jeans never entered the school
                White t-shirt and jeans. What an odd clothing combination. Surely nobody in an entire high school would wear such a thing (except phantom glowie shooters).

                Yeah, there's nothing that can be done about it unfortunately. One thing that cemented in my mind that moronic narratives that start with "ermagawd the eyewitnesses said..." should be treated with intense skepticism was when I was listening to the manhunt for the Boston Bombers live on the police scanner many years ago. At one point an officer yelled into his radio that they were engaging the terrorists and that they had automatic weapons.
                A conspiracy minded individual would take this as PROOF that there were CIA assassins shooting people. In reality it turned out it was the moment when one group of police officers ran into another one and a cop was hosed down with friendly fire.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >officers ran into another one and a cop was hosed down with friendly fire
                >IT'S FRICKING ISIS, RUN!

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                One of the things that sticks out to me is how many gun guys clown on screencaps from twitter where folks are crying and shitting and pissing because they can't tell fireworks or gunfire apart, but then believe all the reports of people hearing explosives going off inside the Twin Towers.
                How many people have heard actual high explosives going off in real life?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          If it’s out there, then it should be easy to find. Give me a link friend

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      5 attackers did a shit job then
      Why do all of the surviving witnesses have a different story?
      Also of the feds were to orchestrate a fake attack, why not also fix or censor the internal documents so FOIA wouldn’t give away the whole 5 guys (burger and fries) conspiracy?

      > Why do all of the surviving witnesses have a different story?
      The different attackers were in different parts of the building witnessed by different people and yes all were witnessed by multiple people. The 3rd was a student who was friends with the two identified shooters, the middle aged guy was also seen and described by multiple people. The 4th was only seen at a distance and was described as wearing a white t-shirt and jeans and the last was someone on a roof only one or two people saw, so may not have been an attacker
      >why allow the report out?
      Well you and no one else has heard this stuff before. And the dancing Israelis FBI report is easily found on the internet and it doesn’t mean dick.
      They really don’t have to try hard at all to hide stuff. If they simply don’t broadcast it on cable tv only an insignificant portion of the population will ever know.

      Just look at Epstein and that WAS on cable news and it meant frick all for the political system. Unironically 99.9% of the population are lemmings who don’t care.

      But why would you even NEED five teams of heavily armed glowies just to kill a few unarmed high schoolers in a library? It’s not exactly the Kennedy assassination.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        AWB

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      There's a reason eyewitness testimony isn't really considered all that reliable anymore. People misremember, or hallucinate, or misinterpret, and this only gets worse with time + communication with other eyewitnesses.

      Not saying there definitely weren't more attackers, but it's highly unlikely all things considered.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >.45 ACP at 70 yards
    So we're talking about something like 10 inches of drop at that range. Hell, he couldn't even see the target when firing if he was going for center-mass because the gun would obscure the target. I'm wondering if he even knew what kind of drop he was dealing with since it's not really anything I've ever seen mentioned as part of police training.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's possible, but it's like asking someone to cut a 2x4 in half with a screwdriver. A pistol is simply the wrong tool for the job.

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    can't remember bullet drop for 9mm. would you rather get in a gunfight with a 3.3 inch barrel with 9mm or 45 at those ranges? I'd choose 300 memeout supersonic all day. no bullet drop at all comparable even really at 100-200 yards.

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >could you have hit the shooter in this same situation?
    If I did it would be 10% skill/training and 90% luck.
    Jerry Miculek could probably headshot him lol

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Pistol behind his head and a mirror - Git Sum!

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I've been shooting handguns for 15 years, and 50 yards is about as far away as I can confidently fire and hit an 8 inch plate in ideal conditions. At 60-70 yards in conditions that are much less than ideal, especially when you might not even be able to see the gunman inside due to the light contrast, I would not expect anyone to be able to hit that shot.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    it is impossible to know how people will perform in combat before combat actually happens.

    the military has spent centuries and a lot of money trying to find a way to figure out which men will hack it and which ones will break in combat and we still have no fricking idea.

    well, it's not true that we have NO idea, but it's more art than science at this point.

    all you can do is prepare people the best that you can and judge them based on their effort and intent. neil tried. you can't ask for more than that.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why are you faulting Gardner for not making the shot when he wasn't the one who massacred the school?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      He and the rest of the police response may as well have massacred the school, they sat in the parking lot while the Library massacre went on.

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer
    Nah, pistol shots that long take a lot of training and if we are giving cops a lot of training I would rather it be on constitutional law, first aid and de-escalation.
    The better option would be always have 2 cops to a car then while Gardner drew fire his partner could grab the shotgun . rifle and make hits at that range.

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why are you not naming the primary attacker? It's why I root for HAMAS.

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Eric and Dylan's guns were hoodlum crap

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Well they were going for aesthetics and what looked cool to their teenage minds, they originally wanted Calicos.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Dylan's Tec-9 was constantly jamming. Also Eric tried firing his shotgun with one hand or something beneath a table, ended up breaking his nose.

        Harris' suicide is quite brutal. He must have really hated himself.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah Eric's suicide is messy, if you look at the suicide photos the top half of his head is missing and his face is sliding off because it has no bone structure left.
          I don't think he felt much before it was over.
          What's interesting though is Dylan seems to have been alive for a few minutes after Eric died.
          In the photos, you can see Dylan's hat as well as a bloody mess on Eric's leg from where he fell and bled on him, meaning Eric had to have been there to begin with.
          I really wonder what Dylan was thinking in those 1-3 minutes on his own, seeing his closest friends head explode.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't think there were any eyewitnesses to the suicides (most survivors had cleared out and escaped by then). No security footage of the library massacre either (they didn't have cameras there). So we just have snippets of audio from the 911 call.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Yeah but I'm saying from the photos it appears that Eric was dead before Dylan, and also there was a molotov lit with Eric's brain matter underneath the burnt film.
              Basically the theory is Eric kills himself, Dylan lights a molotov and kills himself a minute or two later, then the molotov explodes/melts and Eric's brain matter was beneath the burnt glass.
              Does that make sense? Basically Eric had to have died before that molotov was lit by Dylan.

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    concealed carry guns aren’t going to be very accurate at 70 yards, and even full sized service pistols (semi auto) are likely 3-5 inch groups at that distance in a best case scenario. I mean yeah he should have got one or two hits, but cops should have a rifle or a shotgun in the trunk for these situations. you could easily land a slug at 70 yards

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm not sure if Columbine cops are trained at the same level as RCMP but I regularly watch Mounties re-certify with pistols and virtually all of them miss the person shaped target at 20 yards and quick shots at 7 yards. I heard they were bad but jeez... So when I see your attached pic with 60-70 yards I'm not surprised he missed. Most cops don't have the knack for understanding ballistics and gravitational constants. Caveat: I say "most", i'm sure some do.

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    There have been many instances of people using handguns effectively at that range. That being said, I was a police officer and my dad was a police firearms instructor. I grew up shooting guns and every weekend I went to the range with my dad to help him train officers. I've probably seen thousands of officers on the range. Out of every 25 officer class, one or two would be "gun guys". Most officers nevertheless their guns out of their holster except to qualify once a year. And when they do shoot it usually takes several tries for them to pass the test.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Phoneposters are not welcome here. This is a desktop board.

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >could you have hit the shooter in this same situation?
    >two way range with a pistol
    no way
    >two way range with a rifle
    plausible but i wouldnt put any money on it despite being a decent shooter

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Columbine was pretty much the only school shooting to not be staged or rigged in some fashion. The last truly organic instance of such happening.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Idk. Virginia Tech might have been real. Who knows with that one. Virginia has strict laws about not releasing crime scene pics I think, let alone graphic ones.

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Officer Neil, please stay behind me.
    Leave Eric and Dylan to me

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I've got your six, move in

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Neil Gardner was 44 and a Jefferson County Sheriff's Deputy using a .45 Sig
    >The distance between them in reports is stated between 60-70 yards and that is also what Google Earth measuring comes up wit
    very tough shot with a semi handgun on a moving target at that ranfe and I had a thing for shooting hundred yard with cap and ball and can ring 12 inch square steel plate all day at 100 with an 1851. Semi automatic handguns are generally no where near as accurate at range as old guns by the way and mostly tap out at 50 yards practically and their main sweet distance is 25. I'm a decent shot but would probably have missed at that range with that gun under fire. The shoulder stock on the carbine makes a massive difference

  31. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The distance between them in reports is stated between 60-70 yards and that is also what Google Earth measuring comes up with.
    >Both traded shots and no one hit each other, but Neil reported rounds hitting the car he was using as cover, and he also hit the glass surrounding Eric.
    >So I ask you /k/, should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer?
    That's a hard fricking question anon. Let's say he had some shitty rest at best as he was very unlikely to have time to lean over the hood, maybe leaning against the door/pillar at best. That doesn't help. A .45 SIG I have no clue how accurate it is or what the trigger is like so I can't comment there. Does he actually shoot or does he only put in what's required? Does he actually shoot handguns past 20yds? Had he ever been shot at before or even shot under stress/adrenaline? Go hunt and see what adrenaline does to an otherwise decent shooter. It's a fricking tossup without knowing any of that.

  32. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >should he have been able to hit the shooter as a trained police officer?

    not with a pistol at >50 yards, that's too far to expect to hit a target that is using a door as cover. If Gardner had a red dot, then maybe we could expect him to make the shot, but he was a filthy Sigger shooting 45 AARP, so he really had no chance.

    That said, the kid with the carbine rifle should have been able to get a hit, but likely didn't because Gardner was trained to avoid being hit in this exact scenario.

    Basically, the cop would have needed to get into a prone position, use two hands on his pistol, and make good use of his iron sights to get a headshot. By the time he tried all of that, the kid would either be gone or have shot the cop.

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