How the fuck do you let 6 carriers and 500 planes sneak up on you?
Is this the most embarrassing moment in US military history?
How the fuck do you let 6 carriers and 500 planes sneak up on you?
How the fuck do you let 6 carriers and 500 planes sneak up on you?
Is this the most embarrassing moment in US military history?
IIRC several people noticed, including a Radar Tech named Kermit Tyler.. but when reporting it up the chain was told "lol, don't worry about it"
Radar was brand new at the time, so the old fuck he reported it to said something along the lines of "it's probably broken".
The radar operators reported in the initial Japanese contacts to their control center, but there was an exercise that past week and the radar site was in the process of being shut down for the weekend.
Kermit Tyler, the LT who dismissed the radar signatures wasn't actually a Signals troop but a random Air Corps officer that was just working staff duty at the installation at the time. Contrary to popular lore, nobody at the radar station knew of the B-17s from California as their mission was classified. Tyler claimed he was only going to wait until shift changeover which happened a few minutes before the attack started.
The enlisted technician at the control installation who first took the call from Opana Point actually knew the radar operators from tech school and tried to contact senior officers Hickam, but it was too late
>the radar site was in the process of being shut down for the weekend.
Attack when the radar is off work, good to know.
So what did Russia lose today?
strangely enough you can tell how russia is doing in the war by how low effort the bait posting gets.
>Every time the Ukraine war isn't on screen, the other characters should be asking, "Where's the Ukraine war?"
>LALALALALALAAAA! i can't hear you! stop noticing things
You are actually brainwashed and it's horrifying
You were a promising child, once
That bad huh?
>its horrifying
could be worse. could be topping myself in a ukraine trench. speaking of such, i came here to see the daily russian suicide, where is it?
You came into a Pearl Harbor thread for that? You must be very stupid. Don't you feel stupid?
could be worse. could be topping myself in a ukraine trench. speaking of such, i came here to see the daily russian suicide, where is it?
armatard sucks donkey dicks
Look, there's something people really seem to not understand about naval warfare: ships do not have infinite range, especially back in that era. It's not just the carriers, it's the destroyers that escort them, which have even harsher fuel restriction.
THAT'S what makes Pearl Harbor so impressive, and what made it such a surprise: that in the middle of blatantly planning and executing a massive offensive all across the Western Pacific, they somehow also managed to scrape together enough fuel and tankers to haul almost 50 ships on a round trip of almost half the world. The sheer balls-to-the-wall insanity of it is nearly unrivaled in the history of warfare, and I have no problem declaring that it was the best single move anyone ever pulled over on the US military.
This. It was absolutely unthinkable at the time that the Japs or anyone could pull off such a daring attack that stretched their logistics to such limits. Shame the US carriers weren't there.
Read up on the early bombing raid by the English against the airport runway on the Falklands for a slightly more modern equivalent. IIRC it took something like 14 fuel planes refueling each other in flight to get a single bomber to the island to drop like, 2 bombs and return to base, denying the Argies the ability to launch fighters from the island. There's a great mini documentary about it on YouTube somewhere.
Addendum, the Doolittle raids were also up there. You can get a whole lot of magical shit done when you throw out the silly notion of your planes returning to your carriers, or even landing at an airstrip at all.
Doolittle Raid was like 6 bombers, not 500 bombers and fighters.
The Doolittle raid wasn't logistically crazy, just slightly suicidal.
I'm pretty sure that was the only combat sortie ever flown by a Vulcan
>The sheer balls-to-the-wall insanity of it is nearly unrivaled in the history of warfare
>Hans, was ist dat strange ticking noise?
>You Britischers must be mad, ramming a flimsy destroyer into a dock gate and thinking it will take it out of operatio-
>Shame the US carriers weren't there.
Fuck off moron
you're probably talking about this documentary
Good point. I'm an Army guy, so I've never even thought of about the logistics of Naval warfare.
It was unthinkable because it was retarded. Brilliant tactical victory; suicidal strategic blunder. Even if the japs had sunk the carriers and invaded HI, the entire plan was predicated on the wrong-headed idea that the US would capitulate. The japanese did not, and would not ever have had, the industrial base, natural resources, and manpower to compete with the US.
Not capitulate but sue for peace
whatever. "do anything but fight to the bitter end."
I mean the japs had the 1905 War when the Tsarists sued for peace after Tsushima, they thought after a decisive battle the Americans would do the same but Uncle Sam said 'lol no lemme get the industry up and running real quick brah'
Honestly this is probably the most stupid thinking from the Japanese for the whole war, I still can't grap my mind that they would think that the Americans were in the same situation that Russia was in 1905. I get that armies normally learn from their own experience to future conflicts, but did they really forget that from Trafalgar to Napoleon's defeat was more than just a few months?
if they did demolish the navy and then you had half a dozen carriers bombing the west coast, what would have happened?
Japanese logistics completely collapses and they lose even harder.
They got lucky and had a plan ballsy enough that they caught their enemy unawares. Shit happens in war.
If you look at Overlord through op's lense, then Germany should have just thrown in the towel for getting caught off guard
>that they caught their enemy unawares
if that's what you want to believe
>if that's what you want to believe
That's what the evidence indicates.
""""""evidence""""""
Look, it's not my fault that garbage value systems produce garbage militaries.
evidence indicates USA knew about the attack
they knew some attack was possible but they did not know were it would be especially since the nips ordered radio silence on the pearl harbor operation, US command thought that the attack would be against closer targets such as guam or the philippines, as the other guy pointed out the whoel pearl harbor move was such a ballsy move from a logistical standpoint that nobody would have seriously considered it to be a target until it was to late
Correct. Japs did not maintain radio silence. US listening stations in the Pacific and West Coast picked them up decoded and triangulated locations days prior to the attack.
US let it happen.
Swallow medicine. NOW!
Its also retarded to think that the US knew about the attack but chose to let the Pacific fleet get crippled. You realize the attack doesn't have to be successful for it to be a good enough reason to go to war. Even if the attack on Pearl Harbor fails, the Japanese stick attacked Hawaii. Additionally, on the same day Japan invades Hong Kong, Guam, Malaya, The Phillipines AND declares war on the United States. The idea the US just let the Japanese destroy half a dozen capital ships to start a war is an idea that only exists in the minds of half-wits and those completely devoid of common sense.
Thank you for being sensible
>Additionally, on the same day Japan invades Hong Kong, Guam, Malaya, The Phillipines AND declares war on the United States
Here is the thing you don't know that prior.
>The idea the US just let the Japanese destroy half a dozen capital ships
These losses mean nothing in the gand scheme of things. But American public opinion would de set to fight till the end of Japan.
if 'THEY KNEW" well before hand, there's the opportunity to forewarn Hawaii with enough time to get birds in the air to slaughter the japs at the outset of their COWARDLY SNEAK ATTACK ON PEARL HARBOR. The end result would be the same if the attack were successful or if it was thwarted. The Americans would still have gone to war with them regardless.
technically speaking, a lot of people knew they were coming
obviously it was a big false flag op to wrangle themselves into the war
they let it happen on purpose to get the public on the war
they knew about the attack in advance
>the JFK assassin shot the WTC and it fell on Pearl Harbor using roswell reactionless drive technology
Why is America like this.
>Is this the most embarrassing moment in US military history?
No. That would be the burning of Washington D.C, the POTUS fleeing and the White House being burned down.
Indeed, the day of the rake will come and American will have its vengeance.
Use a rake on the british? Wut?
There were 0 Canadians, or British troops who had been stationed in Canada, present in the force that attacked DC and was BTFO near Baltimore. They were troops sent from the Peninsula War to fight in the US and staged out of Bermuda.
Yeah, that was legit pretty fucked day. I kind of think its why the US is so fucked and militarized today. I think the Leafs know it too which is why they are such pushovers; trying to make amends to the world.
As a canadian I'll forego our usual chiding about burning the white house to mention it was mostly British Soldiers who were responsible for the burning of washington, and that god himself intervened and torrential rain from a passing hurricane arrived and literally saved the city from being burned down completely.
it would have worked better if they actually caught the american carriers
or if they destroyed the massive fuel depots that supplied the entire pacific
I can't imagine the sinking feeling Yammamoto had when he heard the carriers weren't there.
>I can't imagine the sinking feeling Yammamoto had when he heard the carriers weren't there.
If anything, it would be a floating feeling, right?
Yamamoto knew the whole idea wasn't good anyway.
Japanese intel knew the day before that the carriers weren't in port.
Would have been a massive pain in the ass to significantly damage, and could be replaced in relatively short order.
>Would have been a massive pain in the ass to significantly damage, and could be replaced in relatively short order.
lmao no
lmao yes
ok retard
By all means elaborate
The fuel tanks, which even today sometimes catch fire just from lightening strikes, would not have been "a massive pain in the ass to significantly damage" and the amount of oil stored in them would've completely stopped the entire pacific fleet in its tracks for weeks - months depending on how Japan followed up.
It was arguably the biggest mistake of the raid, worse even than missing the carriers (because carrier warfare was still in its infancy and only became the centerpiece of naval combat that it is today BECAUSE of people like Nimitz being forced to completely rewrite the book in light of the new paradigm)
The problem with so much of this thinking is that it follows the Japanese mindset throughout the war: that everything will play out according to plan and the US won't respond and adapt.
Firstly, the expectation that Japan could just knock out an entire base worth of oil with a singular carrier strike is unrealistic. Conditions at Pearl Harbor, from the weather to the smoke accumulation to the AAA meant that bombing would be inaccurate and likely sustain heavy losses. Oil depots suffered attacks from warships and heavy bombers without immediately going up in flames, there is little reason to presume that an attack by light bombers would result in that.
Even if a good portion of Pearl's oil was rendered unusable, the US had the largest tanker fleet in the world. Throughout the early months of the war the bottleneck in fuel was in fleet oilers, forward storage and moving it there, not rear area storage. If the US has to tell the civilian population to carpool so they can divert a few tankers for a few weeks to shore up the Pearl Harbor reserves that's not a breaking point. Adding to this is that the Pearl reserves were for a full US fleet, but which now had no thirsty battleships to supply.
And finally, even if we agree the US fleet would be unable to act for weeks, every major action the Allies fought in those days was a crushing defeat. What changes?
>Throughout the early months of the war the bottleneck in fuel was in fleet oilers, forward storage and moving it there
And with no fuel for the forward deployed assets, the Jap fleet could pester those oil tankers at will. If the oil stores at Pearl had been destroyed, the Japanese would've had total control of everything west of 130 for at least several months.
I'm not saying the plan was foolproof, America would certainly have come back in 42/43 and started kicking ass again, but the entire course of the war would be so radically different that it becomes a matter of speculation.
>And finally, even if we agree the US fleet would be unable to act for weeks, every major action the Allies fought in those days was a crushing defeat. What changes?
The timetables. We would've suffered those defeats in 44/45 instead of 42/43. Japan could well have isolated Australia in that time and robbed us of an in-theater ally. Perhaps the Wolf Packs would've become a more pressing concern and US attention shifted to the Atlantic. Maybe the Coral Sea and Midway play out differently.
Like I said: speculation.
>Like I said: speculation
And that's why I can't really consider it a "massive mistake", you have to keep going down the line and presuming things happen as close to reality to avoid going full althistory. At the same time I could propose another possibility: Japanese aviators suffer heavier casualties during the follow-up attack and that loss of pilots degrades Japanese carriers effectiveness, leading to the early loss of Shokaku at Coral Sea and the survival of Lexington. Midway then becomes a 4v4. Or maybe Yamamoto knows his carriers aren't as good anymore and sends 4 of them to Coral Sea, thus leading to a total US defeat.
Point being, once you get past immediate impact things become very uncertain, very quickly.
And the immediate impact of an oil drought in the pacific plays exclusively to the Japanese. There's no way to spin "the US completely loses force projection in an entire hemisphere, even just for a few days" as anything but bad.
I guess you can't necessarily qualify it as a "massive" mistake, but it's easy to see the kind of impact the loss of the oil depot *could* have had.
The Japanese were already having logistical issues maintaining what they captured historically. Even if Japan manages to draw the war out longer as soon as the issues with the mk14 are fixed they’ll begin to collapse and starve by late 1945, and that’s if they don’t go full retard and push even farther beyond their means.
>hurr burning some oil would destroy the USN
>US is the world's #1 oil producer
It would've taken like a week to build ersatz oil storage and pump some oil for the PacFleet. Stop being retarded.
Also oil doesn't explode if someone looks at it funny like in the movies. You can just put out the fire and save most of the remaining oil.
>hurr hurr, just build another fuel storage yard and magically pump 250 million gallons of oil the 2,600 miles from the mainland, all while being pestered by aircraft and submarines
You are drastically underestimating the difficulty of what you've just suggested.
>A real measure of the impact of the destruction of the tanks and fuel would be how long it would have taken to restore the damage.
>Oil tanks are simple constructs—a steel shell, a floating top, and a roof. The shell was essentially shaped sheet metal, something easily handled by the shipyard. It would have taken about 5,000 tons of steel to reconstruct the damaged or destroyed tanks. That amount of metal could have been provided by one cargo shipment from the West Coast. The consequences might have been on the order of imposing a two-month delay in the construction of two destroyers.
>Replacing the fuel stockpile would require allocating sufficient tankers to provide the cargo lift needed. The table shows the number of tankers that would have to be assigned to the West Coast–Pearl Harbor run to replace the lost stockpile in the stated time.
>At the end of 1941 there were about 120 tankers under US registry, with another 80 in Allied service under Panamanian registry and other flags of convenience. Ships were there—it was a matter of which tasks had the highest priority.
>On December 8th, 1941, tankers could have been diverted to the Pacific without disrupting the war effort. Over the following January, February, and March, 43 tankers were sunk along the American eastern seaboard, the Caribbean, and in the Gulf of Mexico by U-boats. Many of these ships were engaged in the US domestic trade delivering oil to cities in the northeast. Even with the loss of these ships to the Germans’ Operation Drumbeat, and dozens more in the following months, the American European war effort in 1942 was not hampered by fuel shortages. This indicates that some fraction of these 43 lost tankers could have been diverted to the Pacific in December 1941 without affecting the course of the war.
Also:
>while being pestered by aircraft and submarines
Jap subs were useless in hunting merchants, the only aircraft near Pearl Harbor were flying boats ill-suited to attack
also
>Also oil doesn't explode if someone looks at it funny like in the movies. You can just put out the fire and save most of the remaining oil.
It's weird that they don't do that now when oil tanks catch fire and explode. You should go tell the DC teams and fire fighters how stupid they are for not just putting out the fire and saving all the oil!
forgot my link
https://www.kristv.com/news/local-news/lightning-strike-causes-durango-resources-to-lose-oil-tanks-to-explosion
I hate the photo colorizing trend.
It sucks. Adds information that wasn't there before.
Pretty sure Pearl Harbor was colorized in 1941.
What, just because some zoomers made some spongebomb memes about it? Fuck off, it's incredible to see these things closer to reality.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Retarded 4chanmoron. Other anons already shut you down but it isn't wrong that the US knew AN attack was imminent...somewhere. Most knew the Philippines would come under attack (which it did), but few even imagined or conceived the idea that the IJN would sail so far as to attack the Pacific Fleet at anchor. Pearl Harbor was truly a surprise attack, but the beginning of the war as a whole with Imperial Japan wasn't.
Multiple failures along the chain of command and in the administration.
SIGINT knew in advance but could not get to the people making decisions in time.
Several people noticed in advance as well, but were ignored.
The whole thing should have ended with far more people losing their careers.
>sneak up on you
They didnt
American public opion about the war was to keep being NEUTRAL
So they needed a "false flag" to change it. They let the nips to do it. They even ignored several reports about the fleet going around.
Literally the same as USS Maine
Literally the same as 9/11 and pentagon attack
>was keep being neutral
except for the fact public opinion would support start a war with japan if they took over additional euro colonies in the pacific, and this still doesn't answer the question of why would they need to let their fleet get destroyed when the mere fact Japan was attacking Hawaii would be enough to convince the public for war, especially when Japan also attacked several other US bases in the Pacific
This.
Sleepy American needs to be reminded, he has wars to fight for his overlords.
>Is this the most embarrassing moment in US military history?
i wish. pearl harbor was one of those battles where it looks worse on paper than it was in reality. most of the capital ships sunk in harbor were salvaged and fought in the war anyway, and the aircraft carriers weren't scratched because they weren't even there at the time of the attack.
ball's bluff is my vote for most embarassing moment, but im not really sure that counts considering it's american v american
Literally battles were lost by the Japanese due to poor Naval reconnaissance and other intelligence failures. They didn't have satellites back then and way less bases around the world.
?t=357
The CSS Virginia getting any further than three meters out of port is the greatest embarrassment
Yeah but that was a casemate ironclad so it wasn't like anything was going to stop it at three meters out.
With how she was built, the fucking water could've taken her down.
But, in more seriousness, the USS Monitor was late for the job of taking it down in port, leading to the Confederate Shitbox Barnroofmobile inflicting the worst loss in US Naval history until WW2
This piece of shit had a turning circle of a mile, misapplied armour, and a God damn ram, and they had like 6 MONTHS WARNING.
>a God damn ram,
That's not really a fault against her. Plenty of rammings happened during the civil war and rams were common on European ships of the era.
>Is this the most embarrassing moment in US military history?
No this is.
Presented without comment
It is not mainline (but not mainstream) history that everyone at the top knew that the attack was going to happen but they let it happen because Americans were only semi-retarded at the time and did not wanted to enter the war.
Stop being retarded.
Roosevelt was a Trumpian president back then, a bona fide retard
This point is incredibly retarded and people have already pointed out the flaws in the logic in this thread. To make this kind of point you need a total lack of understanding of history and to have an iq lower than the average Congolese
There are a bunch of retards claiming it's all a big conspiracy to get the US into the war. Which is beyond stupid
People noticed anon.
But it was allowed to happen by higher ups.
One you notice who let's things happen you start to see a pattern between the culprits, politicians and the military industrial complex.
People die so others can make money.
Look up the uss Liberty for another example
>bomb Liberty
>???
>profit
Meds.
The pacific is fucking huge, no matter how big you think it is, it's bigger than that. That's how.
Flat Earthers BTFO!!!