Specifically, why are there so many small varmint calibers, .17 hornet .17 fireball .204 Ruger .22 Magnum .22 Hornet .220 swift .221 Remington .222 .223 .224 Valkyrie .225 .22-250 .25-06 .25-08 and a frickton of Wildcats
Fudd uncles swear by some of these (especially .22 Hornet) and every couple years there's a new one....
WHAT GIVES?
All I've ever shot, and care for, are .22lr 9mm .223 and 12ga. There's absolutely no need to get anything else, ever.
.22lr is literally all you need unless you're planning on shooting things a mile away. You aren't Chris Kyle, you aren't Dakota Meyer. Stop larping.
Bella Twin wasn't even using .22LR: it was .22 Long
As (if I'm not mistaken) Jack O'Connor said, if all rifle ammo designing work would be ceased after WWI, nothing would be missed.
>All I've ever shot, and care for, are .22lr 9mm .223 and 12ga. There's absolutely no need to get anything else, ever.
Why wouldn't you get a some kind of .30 or some large game hitter?
I want one or up to three cute holes in my trophy bear skin, and I'm not taking any chances. 12 ga heavy slug is my realistic bet.
Interesting, didn't know it was 22 long.
>why things different
>i only try things same
>same things not different
>different is danger
>mmmm paste tasty
Because varmint caliber are a comfy reminder of days gone by before 5.56 replaced everything. Comfychads will always enjoy a nice varmint caliber. 218 Bee is superior
>218 Bee is superior
Brother.
They're not optimizing for cost efficiency. Some people think it's fun to have variety in cartridges. Varmint cartridges don't tend to cost as much and are more pleasant to shoot than larger cartridges. You should look at the hobby like it's a hobby.
Thousands of different people who grew up shooting their father's father's caliber and taking offense at anyone saying there are better alternatives. Hence why every thread on hunting has like 20 dudes arguing that .1234 Wimbledon is superior to 8.775309 Greeble
>arguing that .1234 Wimbledon is superior to 8.775309 Greeble
This is horseshit when everyone knows that 3.14159 Pie is best.
You literally came from reddit and you need to go back and stay there.
If you ever, EVER even THINK for one second that 8.775309 Greeble belongs in the same sentence as .1234 Wimbledon, then I will find out where you live and BUTT FRICK your mom IN THE ASS until the ENTIRE fricking house stinks. Do I make myself clear?
Some people love to dope their rifles to the bullet drop yard by yard. They actually prefer 10 - 50 yards less drop at 1000 yards.
Some are safe queens who think they have every gun for ammo available.
Boomer min-maxing
A lot of small calibre shooters shoot more for score than for game. even if they're fudds exclusively shooting at varmints, they tend to be nerds at heart and want to optimize their shooting. so the competition shooters and bench engineers come up with all this ridiculous bullshit to push a few more fps/ feet of range, and moa of accuracy out of guns not normally able to fire so accurately or so far.
basically and
I prefer "The Modern Rifle" by Jim Carmichel. it's from the 70s and is a very light read that covers what are now the boomer reasons for shooting what they do. not a ton of technical data but lots of fun boomer lore
>no need
It's not about need, it's about a better mousetrap. You'll get it someday or you won't. Also, .257 Roberts and .257 Weatherby, if you are stopping at the quarterbores.
>Specifically, why are there so many small varmint calibers, .17 hornet .17 fireball .204 Ruger .22 Magnum .22 Hornet .220 swift .221 Remington .222 .223 .224 Valkyrie .225 .22-250 .25-06 .25-08 and a frickton of Wildcats
bench rest competition
.17 hornet and .22 hornet are essentially the same cartridge, it's an old boomer cartridge no one uses anymore like .45-70.
.17 fireball, .221 fireball are the same, both are .223 cut in half. .222 is Remington's initial frickup before they fixed it with .223, it's deprecated at this point and basically only exists for markets where military cartridges are banned. .204 Ruger is .223 necked down.
.224 Valkyrie is basically the largest diameter case you can fit in an AR, with the proper length to fit the longest .224 bullets that are made in an AR magazine.
.220 swift, .225 winchester, .22-250, .25-06, .25-08 are all pretty much the same, they're various full power cartridges necked down to .224 or 6mm and have roughly comparable performance.
Mostly it's all just necking existing cartridges up or down to try to optimize between velocity and barrel life. High speed is good for varminters because they're mostly shooting at ranges they're not precisely sure of and high speed reduces drop and time to target. On the other hand, try to go too fast and you'll need a new barrel every 1000 rounds.
>bench rest competition
you fricking idiots know nothing about it I literally told you and you keep on fricking posting bullshit
None of those are bench rest cartridges, except for .224 Valkyrie (which everyone in the bench rest scene was hyped for at the time but now hates). You might see some grandpa there shooting .220 Swift, but not anyone competitive and you'll never see anyone shooting .17 Hornet.
Why the frick can't people like you who know frick all shut the frick up? What the frick is wrong with you?
Hostile mob detected
Why don't you go to a bench rest competition and count the number of people you see shooting .22 Hornet, .17 Fireball, .22 WMR, and .204 Ruger?
NTA but post rifles and groupings right now.
>All I've ever shot
lol, are you a noguns or something?
Not a no guns, I have a .22WMR cylinder and .40 & .357 sig conversion barrels but I haven't even shot them yet.
.220 Swift is a medium game cartridge, boomers have just tricked themselves into thinking that all .22s MUST be varmint cartridges.
.25-06 is too, but you're the only person who calls it one.
>.220 Swift is a medium game cartridge, boomers have just tricked themselves into thinking that all .22s MUST be varmint cartridges.
>.25-06 is too, but you're the only person who calls it one.
rest competition
>you fricking idiots know nothing about it I literally told you and you keep on fricking posting bullshit
All of theseoriginate on the bench rest scene last century 22-250, 222 220 bee swift etc all of em all the small fasts none of you know frick all.
I know about them, my uncles don't even take out their random number fireball wildcat hornet dumb stupid caliber chambered rifles out. They just say they're better than 5.56. And then they only shoot .22lr and 5.56/ .223.
And I say damn I love how .223 is still cheaper than your meme cartridges and they huff and puff and I laugh and do cartwheels
6mm skub or 7mm anti-skub
oh great
now you'll have woken up the 6.5mm is great again crowd
220 Swift and 17 Remington are kind of fun just to see tiny little lead pills heading out close to 5000f/ps and they did have their uses in that if you were hunting for pelts it tended to just drill a nice neat hole in their head which didn't decrease its value later on. That aspect of shooting for skins is slipping away into being an anachronism now due to the 'fur bad' crowd of screaming idiots for the last 30 years.
Accuracy is also very good as the projectile isn't dipping into the subsonic speeds for longer which destabilises it and will give a bit more variation on the hit location.
They did have a point, that and centrefire target shooting was popular, tended to come in good quality rifles and the backing of some larger manufacturers so there was ammo available.
rest competition
>>you fricking idiots know nothing about it I literally told you and you keep on fricking posting bullshit
I didn't say competition
People used to go to their range or shooting paddock and do centrefire target shooting
I mean, if you want to place bets or win a prize that's great, but the 'competition' through most of the 20th century for accurate, good quality guns and cartridges was between manufacturers. If there was a Remington round going up against a Winchester round and someone turned up with a Weatherby round people wanted in on some of those sales.
Wtf are you talking
Y'all don't KNOW FRICK ALL about FRICK SHIT LET NE TELL YOU WOT BOY. NOW YOU LISTEN AND YOU LISTEN GOOD YA HEAR?
Yet you keep going. Bench shooting was huge in the USA last century ALL of this small CF calibers originate as benchrest wildcats. Why the frick do you people keep on posting. Read a fricking book
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Books-Rifles-Shotguns-OConnor/dp/B000WWRUC2
I'm not a fricking American, what people in the US do with their stuff is their business. Don't tell me mine
You're a fricking moron and probably some British gimp surrounded by people who know frick all and nothing. Your business? Given how little you know sounds like you need to find a new one.
I still have all my teeth, guess again
Its competition between manufacturers, competition improves the breed and theoretically something better falls out the other end of it. Plus there's the Wildcat market of just dudes necking down cartridges and sticking what they think should work with some maths, guesstimates and experiments- if what they make ends up something that can be manufactured and sold, then they licence it off to a manufacturer.
I mean its a much-a-much as to a.556 and 224 making a bunny dead at 200 yards, but the ballistics matter to some folks into that stuff. It doesn't matter to me, but that's their business to enjoy how they see fit
>t. bullshit artist huffing his own text farts
actual reason
>Bench shooting was huge in the USA last century ALL of this small CF calibers originate as benchrest wildcats
No one in their right minds uses 556 or 224 to hunt rabbit. You don't hunt.
If you can't hit a rabbit at 200 yards with a 556 that sounds more like a skill issue than a justification
LMAO someone hasn't been out with Uncle Joe. You're wrong too
If you want to destroy a rabbit as edible shoot it with a 204 or 556. Let's face it though aside from the bench rest guy this thread is so full of shit it is basically pointless.
>https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Books-Rifles-Shotguns-OConnor/dp/B000WWRUC2
read the fricking book morons. Try and improve yourselves from bullshit
>Boomerslop authored by an alcoholic gun rag blowhard
no thanks
Hang on you won;t read a book writtenm b y THE Jack O'Connor on guns because
authored by an alcoholic gun rag blowhard
Well, don't ever blame anyone else for the fact you are a worthless bullshitting knowledgeless waste of space. So you think everyone else on earth is just wandering around bullshitting like you. Huh. Must be a hell of a way to be. Actually completely worthless.
I made $114,000 last year because of my knowledgeability, problem solving and out of the box thinking. Honest to GOD. That's what makes this so satisfying and fulfilling.
authored by an alcoholic gun rag blowhard
>no thanks
>Betrays own ignorance
Typical. Just. Matter of time.
I’d sell my soul for more .2666 hellfire
>Yet you keep going. Bench shooting was huge in the USA last century ALL of this small CF calibers originate as benchrest wildcats. Why the frick do you people keep on posting. Read a fricking book
>https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Books-Rifles-Shotguns-OConnor/dp/B000WWRUC2
Loom at you and all the ways you know nothing about anything but still like to talk.
I don't even know what the arguing is about, and I REALLY don't understand why there are a dozen different calibers that do the same exact thing within +/- a few % difference and not one single person here has convinced anyone of anything
I can outshoot you all and any range, any distance with any rifle or firearm and at any shooting position.
Don't @ me
Like follow subscribe and hit the bell for more notifications. I upload every Monday, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
>I don't even know what the arguing is about, and I REALLY don't understand why there are a dozen different calibers that do the same exact thing within +/- a few % difference and not one single person here has convinced anyone of anything
>
rest competition
>Yet you keep going. Bench shooting was huge in the USA last century ALL of this small CF calibers originate as benchrest wildcats
>Read a fricking book
>https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Books-Rifles-Shotguns-OConnor/dp/B000WWRUC2
Good question. There are a lot of stupid meme calibers,.and no one ever has a good answer as to _why_
Ah you can't read books. I see, it's all making sense now. Do they make your head hurt or something and you need to scream for your carer? Fricking idiot.
>>Read a fricking book
://www.amazon.com/Complete-Books-Rifles-Shotguns-OConnor/dp/B000WWRUC2
A) changing ballistic performance
B) bring similar ballistic performance across rim/rimless/different mag
C) make a name for yourself, push a standard and receive followers
The truth is that a cartridge is very influential in ballistic performance, yet they are not modular like gun becuase they are 1 piece of brass requires mechanical accuracy and strength so they function in mechanical guts. That means most cartridge are not compatible outside of straight walled.
Business use this to compete with history and each other, creates an illusion of premium from the artificial scarcity of propretary arounds, rich and middle class guy buys into that, poor gay seethe and make it out of common brass and dies, architect wants cross every platform and autist wants to optimize some extreme or check every feature list for himself. One fails and another takes it place, some concept repeats a lot faster than the other, and regurgitated myth of some super duper far old cartridge is just the same story telling setting for the one of a kind unique experience you can't possibly have when I'm telling you. Thousands of wants and needs, scheme and realities takes up another page in SAAMI document which sometimes conflict with european ones. Just sit back and lmao.
Straightwall sabots could have solve the rigidity issue by introducing modularity but so far none are successful.
Are these bots or are they just spamming ChatGPT answers? Its because they were made for benchrest shooting.
No they weren't.
They are obviously made for hunting, OP intentionally didn't mention what the fudds around him are swearing by, that they hunted a big rat 600 yrd away every week, blowing a deer's shouder out or there is a notebook of charts and album of targets showing tiny groupings. OP has the type of brain damange that compulse him to use "Benchrest" to refer to "moronic long range shooting I don't approve." as well as repeating "i stick to my the only thing I know and no one else need absolutely nothing else than mine". Do I need to say more, Boomer?
Actually there aren't enough varmint cartridges. There are still holes in what's readily available;
>a 5mm companion to .22mag and .17hmr
5mm rem mag doesn't count because the rim isn't the same size.
>a SAAMI spec for 20vartarg
>rimless variants of the "hornet" class
Some others but those are the most current in my mind.
>WHAT GIVES?
Progress in all things, Mr Stussy.
Some of the older ones are based on moldy old Edwardian fuddlore that even large animals would drop dead from shock if you hit them anywhere with a bullet going faster than 3000 fps. There were a lot of companies and gunsmiths trying to get a piece of that pie.
Ya just gotta shake it off man. The haters gonna hate.
It’s FUN you fricking moron
I wish I had more up to date data (I suspect 5.7x28mm has crawled onto the chart and the Russian stuff has fallen off) but these numbers from two different sources; 2015 and 2016; really show that of the thousands of cartridge chamberings in existence, barely ten of them have any relevance whatsoever
and here's a fun one - the five most popular calibers in all 50 states in 2015
Really interesting that Rhode Island is the only one that has 22lr as its number 1.
>Really interesting that Rhode Island
phrases not previously uttered in human history
Hey I'm a Rhode Islander
NJ? DE? Next time read the chart before you tell us what it says.
delaware as well
2015 was kind of a wacky year, this data could reflect the fact a bunch of people were expecting Hill-Dawg to be crowned president and redo an AWB so they were buying lifetime supplies for what they already had. 2017-18 data would be cool to compare it to as I figure that would be more what people were getting into more than doubling down on what they already have.
Where did you get this data from? What it is based on? I want to see other years.
Lmao
>45 and 12ga beating out 9mm in WV
bunch of hillbilly boomers
>30-06 makes the list
Thank you Maryland, very cool!
>so many .45 boomers still alive
.45 is awesome. Get bent over a rail. Frick all knowing posters can't be cured.
Lucky gunner said in a video in late 2023 or 2024 that 10mm is now third or fourth depending on month after 45 and before or after 380
What's even chambered in 10mm? Glock 20 and some boutique 1911s?
Every major manufacturer sells a 10mm
Okay but it is what Chris baker said on video so take it up with him
>Every major manufacturer sells a 10mm
Post Beretta centimeter.
>tfw no Beretta centimeter 92/px4/apx/pmx/cx4
feelsbadman.jpg
CX4 and PX4 are both available in .45; rebarreling either to 10mm should actually be in reach of a good machinist.
I realized that as I typed it. I have some other dumb projects I am going to start up/send to a gun smith once i get the time. I guess I'll put that on the list.
I would consider most Euro manufacturers an exception
>Walther Beretta, HK
it's a ahame really
I mean, I'd argue they are still major handgun producers. 10mm is not a common caliber.
>Every major manufacturer sells a 10mm
Walther? I can't think of one.
Glock
SIG P220 / P320
FN 510
a dozen flavors of Tanfoglio Witness
Springfield XDm
S&W M&P
S&W 610
Grand Power P40L
Taurus TH10
Hi-Point JXP 10 🙂
that's nonsense.
>Conflating rimfires with shit like .25-06
>Lists rare exotics that few people own
>Lists obsolete calibers that no one currently builds rifles in
>.22-250 is common as frick and readily available everywhere
Yelling at clouds
boomers couldn't buy flashlights, tactical buttplugs, lasers, and suppressors for their durr rifles. So their way of unleashing autism was to develop more and more niche cartridges that matched the exact performance envelop they wanted.
It's really no different from tacticool larpers today, it's not that they really truly felt this was necessary, they just needed something to do.
There used to be a time without supercomputers in your pocket, most people lived in rural America, and they actual used varmint rifles on varmints.
The turbo scam of wild animal rescues hadn't been invented yet either.
>7.62x51/.308
>.303
>.357
>9x19
>.300 WM
>7.62x39
>.30 carbine
>7.62x63
>7.62x25?
>.380?
All are 30 cal btw
Small Caliber Autism
People want to achieve more with less. Dropping a deer on the spot with a .218 bee neck shot will always make you feel more accomplished than a 30-06 heart/lung shot followed by a 70yd run. Killing a hog with a 25gr .17 piece of lead will always be more satisfying than whatever 200gr flinging cartridge.
Also shooting small calibers is cheap, so more people can shoot a lot of them, therefore they end up making more of them.
>WHAT GIVES?
boomers and their ways
>it'll make yer head spin
have you ever seen a boomer do the head spin? it's fricking real, they're actually moronic
220 swift is more than a varmit cart. It’s an absolutely b***hing mule deer and goat round out to a quarter mile