(this is NOT a "hurr durr who would win" thread)
I've been watching some different documentaries about military units in both UK and US and one thing that really strikes me is both the quality of the recruits and the way they train is so different. Maybe i'm just a stupid civilian but I really feel the US way is weird.
US:
>some recruits look like a typical chud with the chin and rectangular glasses
>no one is actually telling them why and how to do something, just "MOVE THIS 30 KG BARREL NOW!!!"
>saying sir and sergant all the time
>recruits can't even swim, why are they even allowed into marine training then lol?
>officers look like a Hollywood stereotype who never could get a "real" job
>some schools are like 12 weeks at most
UK:
>royal marines starts with a literal wienertail evening in suits
>officers look like elegant noble chaps with a moustache and an education
>showing what to do, making time for recruiters to ask why and how
>not screaming much unless it's a timed march to push them a bit
>joke around calling people chaps and jolly good fellows asking like "well that certainly wouldn't be such a good idea to attack that way I would say"
>takes years to get a speciality like machine gunner or radio operator
Maybe it's just the editing or something, but that's what I wanted to discuss
I watched for example royal marines, marine corps, and ranger school or irish guards training
here is an example , at timestamp https://youtu.be/Pl0cKJiXut0?t=565
>(this is NOT a "hurr durr who would win" thread)
Still a moronic thread my guy.
could be, i don't claim I'm an expert at all. usually hang out at PrepHole
Well there’s yer problem, son!
Agreed. a Ukraine thread died for this hot garbage. It's a disgrace
The point isn't to educate the man, it's to make him obedient
The Prussian model just like our public schools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5h0aO8ZaE
because us marines and uk marines are not comparable, the former is a larp corp thats persisted due to it's relationship with the executive branch while the latter is more comparable to a pseudo special forces group
This. While not a perfect fit, the Royal Marines would be more like the Army >Rags
The entire corps of royal marines is classed as special operations capable
Wait. US Marines aren't classed under Special Operations? Wtf?
The roughly 180k personnel branch should be considered Special Operations? lol
No they are like the 4th military branch, they are like under the navy but also like the presidents personal army somehow. they have their own air force and recon units and stuff
US Marines are a second, smaller, and more moronic version of the Army.
They're classed under special education
They're an entire fricking branch why the frick would they all be specops?
USMC is comparable in size to the largest European armies, bruh.
US Marines do fall under the classification of "Special" Operations.
>The entire corps of royal marines is classed as special operations capable
According to what?
According to your mom's fat ass
Britain invented commandos and is the progenitor of all commando units, during WW2 it drew up commando units from the army, navy and air force, the marine commandos formed a significant proportion of them. After WW2 almost all of the commando units were all disbanded except for some of the marines, who were fully moved from a regular force to a commando force, which involved disbanding many of the marines, including former commando units, because of post-war Britain's collapse. Formerly the marines were a regular force formed of the RMLI (light infantry) and RMA (artillery), now theyre exclusively a commando force (light infantry) and the RMA were disbanded. They take on similar operations to the SAS and SBS, who also originate from WW2 commando units, really the SBS is a more elite sub-unit of the marine commandos.
The UK. It recently re structured it's forces. RM are not part of UKSF but now called 'special Operations capable'. They are also heavily changing the intended use of RM with a larger focus on small unit raids.
This is the most moronic post I've seen in a while
British agressiveness in training concentrates on the killing part:
and to be clear, I totally get you need to get the psychological pressure and have a killer mindset etc
But I just don't get this part of "DO X NOW DON'T ASK QUESTIONS MOOVE"
Isn''t it better to first practice a bit, ask how for example the best way to march with a weapon and a tent is instead of just going out
They’re training obedience first. The why can come later. The main point is that when an officer or sergeant gives an order you follow it almost on instinct, delays and questions can get people killed. The u.s has a much larger military and doesn’t have time to coddle every troop individually. After basic they start doing advanced training and the hows and whys come into effect more.
US/Canadian training absolutely has its calm, respectful parts. When they're sitting your ass down actually teaching and explaining how things are done, it's a more relaxed atmosphere. When it's time to put things into practice, that's when they ride your ass hard to make you apply the knowledge under pressure.
t. Ex-mil leaf
>DO X NOW DON'T ASK QUESTIONS
What? The drill instructor is literally asking "any questions" right after his demonstration.
sure, but I didn't see anyone actually ask and discuss.
Like "oh so you say we gonna move in from this hill here. According to the map, this hill has a better angle and since it's from east we will have sunlight in our backs making us harder to spot"
or something
>sure, but I didn't see anyone actually ask and discuss.
Well the video cut right there and showed tea time. I presume they indeed asked and discussed the finer points of a bayonet charge.
Probably because they had no questions. Asking questions for the sake of asking questions is just annoying, if you don't feel you'd gain any meaningful insight then why ask questions?
Plus how many of those trainees do you think actually have the operational knowledge to think that up on the spot and propose it? That's something people find out when they actually get eyes on it unless they know the area well enough already. When I did my field training exercises in basic to put our basic skills to the test we were given a lot of operational freedom as a unit, with the drill sergeants intervening when necessary. We had one platoon just set up their camp on the side of a road and got fricked up in the middle of the night. My platoon leaders (recruits, not sergeants) chose a local depression surrounded by hills and coordinated with us to pick specific tactical spots to pull security. Was neat.
Us Army isnt 100% yelling and screaming. Theres plenty of class time where you recieve instructions amd get to ask questions.
Yes but after that there is the yelling and screaming.
Yeah, because they're making sure you can perform under stress.
When you're in the field you need to do tasks promptly, hesitation is how you get killed. There is a time and place for everything. A good trainer knows those times. What you're looking at is what they want you to see because that's the sensational bit, what they're not showing an excess of is actual instruction.
Basic combat training is 12 weeks, your actual operational job is often longer. You do basic combat training as well as training for your job. My BCT was ~12 weeks, my job training was ~16 weeks, adding to a total of 28 weeks before I actually got to my unit.
For sure. I am not talking about when they are actually doing something, but more like 2 hours before they gonna do it. I totally get on the field you need to follow your commander
Black person do you think the drill sergeants are yelling at you constantly for 22 weeks? They calm down with that shit within the first few weeks. They're not screaming in your ear to learn how to maintain vehicles and shit
Let me try explaining anon,
You are now in charge of a group of say...50 people. You know most of the 50 people are normal. However, you know mixed in there there are...people who lied about medical stuff who will break if you push them too hard, at least one person who sucks their thumb and can barely tie their own shows, a couple people who lived in shacks in the woods for their entire lives who have never seen the amount of crazy technology they are witnessing in a shitty barracks setting, and a few literal morons. The Marines and Army both allow literal morons in. The Army being worse about it.
So knowing all of that, are you going to treat everyone like they are "just as good" as everyone else? Or are you going to treat everyone like the lowest common denominator? Probably the latter, in the hopes the idiots and people who shouldn't be there fail or quit.
ironically enough I'd reckon you're more likely to make the non-morons quit, because... they're not moronic.
>trips of evil
Not today, Satan.
But that is, to my basic level of understanding, part of weeding people out. Nobody is made to do anything complicated. If you have people who can't do simple tasks under pressure, they're kinda fricked.
And ALL of U.S. military training isn't all yelling and screaming and running around like a crazy person. Generally things calm down the further into it you get.
Or you joined the Navy or Airforce and you're basically in college where you have to go on a jog occasionally.
Yjk all of them went to NI and got the clap from a good for nothing black protestant hoor.
>a few Argentinians died on the bayonet in the falklands
based
>That third scream where it cracks slightly
Goddamn that man goes fricking hard
Brits are all tea parties, fancy dress parties and charm on the outside and sick frickin mass murdering maniacs on the inside when it comes to bladed weapons.
You sound like an obese person who lives with his mom and piggybacks off the achievements of actual men because they're British just like you.
UK has manpower shortages precisely because they don't enlist the kind of sub-80 iq morons that need to be abused into behaving.
Does the US not also have a manpower shortage at the moment?
Yeah that's why they're advertising to illegals and migrants to give them citizenship.
White Americans don't want to fight for the US anymore, that's why you're seeing a pull back on anti-White and pro-degeneracy rhetoric in politics.
>White Americans don't want to fight for the US anymore, that's why you're seeing a pull back on anti-White and pro-degeneracy rhetoric in politics.
What's that? The generation who grew watching the US squander money and lives in two separate twenty year long wars of choice in a blistering sandbox full of religious fanatics don't want to go into the military... must be "hot button boomer issue" that is making these zoomers so adverse to the service.
I'm a zoomer and the only Whites I see going into the military have no other options or do so out of a false sense of patriotism and probably won't be extending their contract.
Aside from that, peacetime militaries have always had terrible morale.
I mean, yeah, that's how they get you. Free college and health care that you increasingly can't get on you own if you're not already middle class. Economy is good right now and labor has more power than usual; less people are without choice and desperate, ready to trade being shot at for the state for middle class access.
Also, you know, 20 years of seeing the military used to dick around for oil and veterans kicked the curb as soon as they become expensive.
Da fellow Generation Z, I too am a member of generational spread of the late 1990s and early 2010s. I hate decadent ZOGmerica israelites and love the white race. Slava Rossiya, they are fighting for western values and white race. I would never fight for tyrannical anti-white dictatorship like ZOGmerica. Slava Rossiya. Slava Generation Z!
>hating your countries wholesale embrace of identity politics at the expense of the identity you belong to is the same as clapping for aids infected slavic chimps in a rape crusade
okay
It was like this after 9/11 too but more people bought into the patriotism. That goodwill dried up.
They're only extending that offer to legal permanent residents. I'd come down south to join your military tomorrow if they were offering citizenship for service to just anybody
I hadn’t thought of this, I figured we had the same kinda drill instructors or whatever they’re called back in the 1940s or whenever the country was ~90% European descent or whatever.
Yeah, the UK Army has fitness requirements for entry into any part of the army.. I've copied and pasted the current test below:
>The Multi Stage Fitness Test (beep test)
>You need to run between two lines, 20m apart, in time with a beep. The beeps get steadily faster. Your score is based on the point where you can no longer keep up.
>Why test your running? The run measures your aerobic capacity. Aerobic fitness is essential for all military tasks and important for injury prevention.
>Medicine Ball Throw
>Sitting with your back against a wall, you'll throw a 4kg medicine ball as far as you can. Your best throw of three will count. You must throw at least 2.7m to meet the lowest soldier entry standard. Some trades will need you to throw the ball 3.1m.
>Why test your seated throw? The seated ball throw measures your upper-limb explosive strength. This is an important part of fitness and is essential of being able to perform many military tasks well.
>Mid thigh pull
>Standing in front of a bar set to mid-thigh height you'll be asked to pull the bar upwards for 5 seconds then rest and repeat. Your best score of the two attempts will count. You must pull 50kg or more to meet the lowest soldier entry standard, although some trades will need a higher score. Your score will be taken from the best of your two attempts.
>Why test your mid-thigh pull? This test measures your lower-body strength. In the Army you need lower body strength for many every day military tasks.
>joke around calling people chaps and jolly good fellows asking like "well that certainly wouldn't be such a good idea to attack that way I would say"
This is not true at all. British instructors don't scream and swear like yank ones maybe but they won't hesitate to call someone a spastic, mong, fat c**t, useless moron, etc. If anything it's worse because they'll be more sarcastic or demeaning about it
Yes this I agree on. depends from which time the movie is I guess. But you are on point they are very sarcastic and rhetorical
an american would be like
>SOOO NEVER EVER FORGET YOUR WEAPON AGAIN PRIVATE SO STUPID IDEA
the british:
>Oh seems like quite a peculiar mistake happened today squad. A low IQ individual , or as one could say - a useless moron - made the brilliant decision of forgetting his firearm in the field. I would suggest he steps forward now to avoid such mistakes in the future
>British instructors don't scream and swear like yank ones maybe
I mean, this is just on brand with the Scots. I assume when most people, especially yanks, say "the British", they usually mean the English specifically.
>battle screams
>any questions?
my sides
>If anything it's worse because they'll be more sarcastic or demeaning about it
Oh God yeah, they have a way of getting inside your head or under your skin to make you feel like a total loser. It's devious!
It's a calculated method of breaking down and humiliating before rebuilding recruits into soldiers.
The reasoning behind this is that a large portion - possibly even the majority - of american men are anti social losers who have issues following orders and working in a team.
Vmsnhn
Could be, that's a bit the feeling I get actually. That the UK ones has a long family history of military service and see it as their duty or goal
In US feels like half of the recruits I see is hispanics and didn't have something better to do. You don't hear many talk about their fathers or relatives when they have the close up camera interviews, they mostly say "oh I wanna be with the TOUGHEST GUYS!"
Anal rape
It seems to be a USA vs Europe thing. I noticed the same thing on Picrel, an Amazon documentary about the trials to become a GEO in Spain (Police Special Forces), and since then I looked at documentaries about the Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and Polish armed forces and while the level of poshness is variable, all of them have this degree of politeness and generally try to be formal and accomodating. Then you look at USA and half of them seem to be normal but the other half its like every recruiter is trying and failing to emulate those old movies.
Still the one that stuck in my brain the most was decidedly Picrel. Not only because it was the first but also because it gets kind of creepy. I mean for context. This is a competition, there's a limited amount of hirings so about 90% of applicants will be rejected and the tests are designed to cull that 90% in brutal fashion. They test almost everything they can from hypothermia to simulations to physical exercizes many would consider torture.
And yet, begining to end. Despite being open about the fact that most people WILL fail and no one can change that fact, the officers don't drop the friendly and polite act for a single second. Even when they're practically goading the recruits to give up, its never in your face, they don't raise their voice they just go "You know its ok to give up. Most of you will fail anyway, might as well spare yourself the pain. If you're not done for this that's ok just go home and be a regular cop. The fact you were preselected is already an achievement no need to go through this hell just to get to the same result." And my god, that feels so much worse to hear. At least as a viewer. It feels so wrong to see someone with a smile, in a polite tone, telling people to go frick themselves that calmly.
thanks anon, I didn't know there was police training documentaries but I will check it out
It's Spains equivalent of GSG9 and GIGN, so it's basically the primary counter-terrorist outfit of Spain. The only away around this brutal selection course is to come straight from GOE or UOE - Spanish Army and Navy special forces
Seems like a difference between teaching people to endure pressure vs. teaching them to exert it (against themselves)
I read the same about SAS traning actually
they don't scream or push anyone. they are more like "well lads, it's time to visit that mountain top over there. do it in 2 hours and report back. good luck, we have a car back here if you feel tired. See you later cheers"
From what I understand there is an assumption among SAS-types that by even reaching the SAS selection process you've proven that you're past the point of needing to have the Sergeant screaming in your face in order to get shit done.
Yeah, if your trying to get in special forces you already have to prove your a good solider to even go for selection, and you are self motivated and keen to get to that point. If you don't make the grade you will just get RTU'd, no need for screaming and shouting.
If you can't meet the standards without external motivation you don't deserve to pass. The staff do shout and encourage but not all the time. I feel like US training is like daycare sometimes and i assume its because they have a huge army they need to man so they drag people kicking and screaming through it.
That's just what you get when the recruits and trainers are intelligent.
This does not apply to jarheads.
>"You know its ok to give up. Most of you will fail anyway, might as well spare yourself the pain. If you're not done for this that's ok just go home and be a regular cop. The fact you were preselected is already an achievement no need to go through this hell just to get to the same result."
The SAS invented this
Read more
They're a lot more strict than that
This is military prison not basic training, moron
>The British system is designed to be ALOT more picky
Very much this
I forget the ratio but it was found not too long ago that the British Army was turning away something like 99 applicants for every 1 accepted into basic. At a time when the nation is scrambling for warm bodies, this demanded a parliamentary investigation IIRC.
Also the British have a longer enlistment period I think.
>parliamentary investigation
What did it discover?
Were there too many white applicants or something.
burgers memed themselves into thinking it creates better soldiers
>thinking the first 4 weeks are what all of training is like
>thinking there's something wrong with respectfully addressing superiors
what the frick is wrong with you? why are you this this misinformed but still make shit threads?
I watched nightstalkers training for example. Not like that that's for anyone new and its 24 weeks I think
There's a pretty huge difference between basic and advanced training
When Americans are angry, they are REALLY fricking angry. Mostly we just wave flags and live comfy and sort of ignore the world. But when you kick mud on our shoes you get a new government and lots less military aged males. And we have the means to find you with a drone, read your social media, pick a pocket and put a fricking huge missile in it.
Full Metal Jacket did untold damage to US military training. Too many US trainers feel obliged to play up to the stereotype of the ranting, shouting, ineffectual tyrant - if they don't, the recruits think they're pushovers. Even R Lee Emery himself said that he wouldn't have been so forceful when he was actually serving.
Ermy was obviously putting on a show. When instructors are yelling at you in the real world, it's much less performative and a lot more aggressive and to the point. If I had an instructor do an R Lee Ermey impression, I would have had to struggle not to laugh. It's not the same thing
We got in at 2 AM and woke up later that morning to James Brown and bizarre terror for the next week. Then that guy went on leave and the next one was just as you describe but with much less competence. Instead of having us do various training weirdly we say by our bunks reading training materiel.
I read one guy's account where he mentioned that the scariest instructor he had wasn't one of those screaming mongs. It was a soft-spoken lady of unimpressive stature.
Turned out that she had a degree in psychology, and could look at a recruit for a few seconds, sus out their history and profile, and promptly tear them apart with nothing but words. She left more than one guy a sobbing wreck without even raising her voice.
Sounds like gay neverserved bullshit lol
>le mean lady totally made guys cry hannibal lecter style
Actually maybe it’s true, I met some of the biggest pussies in my life at sand hill lol
I can guarantee that there is screaming and yelling in British Officer training. They probably just didn't show it.
alright, I trust you about that. But still, it feels like even if they scream, they have a certain dignity to their behaviour somehow and same for the recruits
You're just a moron for comparing an officer training school to enlisted Boot camp. I've been through both, and their screaming and yelling at different times.
In OCS they yell in the early phases to apply pressure and eventually it moves to more mentoring and calm talks, but they'll flip out if they need to or you aren't progressing. Enlisted BCT is about instilling discpline and obedience, but there is still time for teaching and calm instruction.
The main difference between OCS and BCT is that in BCT you get smoked because some kid stole peanut butter from the DFAC or keeps talking in formation. In OCS you get smoked because you delivered a shitty OPORD brief or didn't properly plan PT for your platoon.
And the British just have sticks up their asses. We don't put on airs like that.
as I said, I didn't watch basic boot camp but like ranger school, nightstalkers or 101s airborne
A lot of times schools try to weed people out by smoking the dogshit out of you first. Most people in the army only ever deal with Corrective Training early on in their careers at IET and as junior enlisted. If you've been in for a while and have some rank getting smoked again like that can be a huge gut check. They're often just trying to weed people out.
Historically Ranger school had bordered somewhere in between outright masochistic and hard but doable, but coping with prolonged sleep deprivation: the school.
160th SOAR - Nightstalkers have a six week course that re-familarizes them with basic light infantry work to include weapons senpai, advanced SERE, and land navigation.
They are already Aviators, aerial gunners/aircrew and crew chiefs. They have to have over 500 flight hours to even apply
Ranger School also generally goes out of its way to weed out the myriad of Officers who get a slot.
If you spend any appreciable amount of time in the 75th as an enlisted you'll be chomping at the bit to go to Ranger school - which is why fail rate from greatest to least is Officers>Enlisted w/o RASP>Enlisted w/ RASP> Enlisted from the 75th
>In OCS they yell in the early phases to apply pressure and eventually it moves to more mentoring and calm talks
Lies
The majority of bong officer training is conducted by SNCOs. Cadets most definitely do get screamed at. Particularly in the bayonet & riot control parts of it (infantry operations is used as the method of teaching leadership & management, so all cadets do this even if they are destined for a career far from the battlefield).
Rather than singling out an individual for making a mistake group punishments are preferred.
Kek. That NCO isn't shouting at the recruits at any moment though. His tone throughout is enthusiastic, professional and supportive throughout.
Have you seen the caliber of people that join the United States military? They have to be hard asses to knock humility and discipline into these fricking idiots.
>t. soldier
There are 5968 royal marines not counting reserves.
There are 177,200 USMC not counting reserves.
If you want large scale production you have to use the factory model. Small craft levels of production can have a different approach.
It's bc the whole Gunny Sergeant thing is a theatrical performance role for the sake of tradition and esprit de corps. Like being an auctioneer that talks fast, a baseball umpire, or a boxing announcer. You are specifically trained to uphold a niche historical tradition just as much as doing the job.
>id never join because id punch the dude who yelled at me
>id never join because the zog wont get me
>id never join because im too smart
>15 years pass
>i almost joined but....
>ok schlomos itt
I mean you are not wrong, as I wrote in my post. I am just a civilian who observed the differences
no need to be rude or smug about it
I didnt quote anyone man, but if the shoe fits...
I didn’t join because my life got amazingly better at 18 compared to 14-17 with a hot gf, too many friends, decent paying job, and by then I’d been watching like almost a decade of some weird boring desert shit with no cool sexy end goal. “We’re just blowing this money and fighting a flaccid stalemate so uh…the girls can go to school over here and they can vote for our pre-approved candidates!”
Not worth getting my face and penis blown off for.
I talked to the muhreenz recruiter, took the asvab, scored the kind of score a recruiter who needs bodies for humvees dreams of. I was perfect IED bait, I was 17 but about to be 18, so he wasn’t worried about my parents signing off. He came to pick me up three weeks later and my shit head ass had partied so frickin much I forgot I had talked to them. He was banging on the front door and I thought it was the cops, he must’ve seen my shadow in the peephole because he starts shouting “get out here you coward you made a vow” and “you’re coming with me even if I have to come in there, get out here you coward!”. By then I was laying behind the couch but I heard the back gate and the motherfricker was in the backyard yelling saying I couldn’t hide from him and this shit, he was doing this for like 3 hours til he figured my parents would get home or something. I legit frickin forgot all about that guy. Me and my bro are the first generation not to join. Closest I came to the Marines I had broken up with my gf and been hooked up with this fine pawg by my friend, and she came over and blew me, she was wearing her bf or ex-bfs t-shirt with his marine squad pic in the back and when I banged her I felt like I had to do my best or I was letting the whole squad down.
Biden 2024 btw not sure if that matters.
I hope that this post is 100% unironic.
you don't have any quirky coming of age stories to share?
None as fake as the first 5 sentences of shit you spewed.
I wouldn’t lie to y’all on the internet cmon.
It was 2005, they were horning for me, I had like a pristine 36 on the asvab. Maybe I forgot I had signed some gay ass papers that led the dude on further than I thought but being 17 is crazy, a couple joints and some tiddies and I forgot about the short dumpy Mexican and black recruiters off San Jacinto from a few weeks ago.
I’ll always feel like I let the team down, we probably could’ve turned the tide on terror if I had joined. Wouldn’t even need any training just drop me in the shit.
Lmao someone thats never talked to a Marine recruiter.
Army i might of believed, but you tried too hard. Ive never seen a Marine recruiter ever give more than two fricks if someone dropped out it was "frickin fatshit ghosted, go to the mall and find his replacement."
The caliber of people who join the US military is so awful that you need to shout and scream and abuse 90% of them to get them to do anything.
t. Former 11b
Why do they join if they don't want it? that is as you say the main difference between brits and them. the seem really motivated
It's not that they don't want it, it's that American child-rearing has collapsed to such an extent that you essentially need to shove an entire "how to be a man" crash course into your 14 weeks alongside all the infantry shit.
t. also former 11B
This doesn't make any sense though, as Brits are way less manly than Americ**ts.
>t. another former 11b1p
The brits solve the issue with length of training, they still have the equivalent of a "hell week".
Brit training is also deceptive, it goes from casual sunday suit gentlemanly tier with some introductory courses on basic military shit like DNC, hygiene and uniform maintenance and within 3 weeks recruits are bear crawling through mud soup with a bergen on - the instructors aren't at full intensity yet but they've intensified and are encouraging dropouts.
The brits get very, very fricking serious once live ammunition training comes into play
In US basic training it's crawl, walk, run - except in the crawl phase you are getting the worst of it upfront.
Yeah it really is sad, when I was a kid I was infatuated with the military now that I'm in my early 20s I just can't bring myself to join the military because of how bad its gotten.
You should have normal men that want to join the military not dregs who have no other options.
The US military has always been dregs without other options
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/ex-signals-now-national-guard-plumber.309180/
US needs millions of troops. They need to quickly train them and they need to make compromises in their training to quickly get them out.
Britain has a much smaller military but some of the finest training for regular soldiers.
Honestly it comes down to cultures of initiative. The British always have to phone home and consult with civilians for what the US would consider pretty basic warfighting shit. Except for large ops or when intentionally crippled by politicians like during Vietnam, the US military just does the thing. That means you need a soldier or marine accustomed to offensively moving fluidly in the chaos of a changing situation. Because of their moronic military/civilian command structure, a Brit equivalent almost always has time to adjust before daddy and mommy at the MoD come to an agreement on what to do next. That's why Brits are great at defense - the plan is in place, their gear is good, no one has to make sure it's alright with some civvy Oxford boy in London. They're great at executing offensives if given the time to plan, like the Falklands and D-Day. But they're bad, sometimes very bad, at exploiting changing situations, switching from defense to offense, taking advantage of some new variable, like Montgomery in WWII or the Brits in Basra and Helmand Province. There's no reason to train them to be able to operate under the same high speed stress and pressure like Americans because institutionally they're incapable of utilizing that capability. It's basically "train like you fight" on a national level.
Every UK politician and military officer should read this book.
High Command: British Military Leadership in the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars
It identifies and describes those problems painfully well.
Bin Laden escaped at Tora Bora because Americans demanded to wait for air support before going in while the Brits under their command pleaded for an immediate attack
The point of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't to get Bin Laden or even kill al Qaeda. The point was to draw every radical muslim in the world into a wide open killzone where we could shoot and bomb and doorkick without bothering any western civilians. It was a giant trap, and we rid the world of hundreds of thousands of them over the years in their own back yard. Come attack our hardpoints in your country bristling with all our latest weapony and not our buildings back home. And the literally fell for it. ISIS was just the continuation of the stream into the rat trap. The Brits never understood that. If you take Bin Laden at the beginning who's going to tell them to come protect him? Who is going to prevent the organization from dispersing instead of coalescing in a land that holds nothing of value to the rest of the world except some rocks. The Brits were still mentally on the civvy plan, the one that called for getting one guy as is one guy committed 9/11. Because the civvy's in the MoD would never agree to extending a war just to kill off the bulk of the world's radical islamists no matter how effective or brilliant it was.
Don't worry, from police to military the US is starting to look similar. Officers aren't being selected for initiative and aggression as much. Same thing with the FBI, it's being run more or less directly from DC now, when back in the day it was all about the field offices.
The NCO corps in the army still prizes the same things because it'll take a century or more to change it, but the officer corps has become pretty hollow past the 0-3 level.
>no one is actually telling them why and how to do something
Are you that moronic?
>royal marines
>US marines
Totally different. Royal marines are a lot more specialised, having to go to commando school etc. They're more akin to special forces than anything else. That being said the training is absolutely brutal.
>takes years to get a speciality like machine gunner or radio operator
can you show me?
That's true though. The Brits do not have 'MOS' type designations. The only way to be in the infantry is to sign up as 'infantry'. After finishing training and joining battalion you need to spend at least a year as a rifleman before moving on to MG, morters, recce, sniping, pioneer, Jav etc etc. Basically everyone is an 11b before they get a chance to do anything else.
You need to understand that Bongs communicate differently than Americans. They are less direct in their choice of words to the point where it caused serious communication issues in the Korean war.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard
This is highly accurate, I can crack up my American wife (who's been re-trained in civilised discourse) by shit-talking any establishment we're in right to the manager's face and he's just smiling and nodding along.
>who's been re-trained in civilised discourse
You guys just talk like pussies because you know people will beat your ass.
>Okay but why do they have to be so rude?!
The British approach evidently works, given that their infantry are amongst the best in the world. I always figured that a sense of mutual respect would get you a lot further than the American approach, which was born from having to try and force conscripts in the Vietnam era who REALLY didn't want to be there to become something resembling soldiers. It's absolutely not a good approach in the modern, volunteer-driven era.
As people have pointed out, the only reason why the British system works is because of the quality of the recruits they deal with. In the British military, the process of enlistment is like applying for a professional big boy job and the recruiters screen out the people who won't be able to hack it. In the US military, the process of enlistment is like applying for a job at Wal-Mart or McDonalds; they'll take the first warm body that walks through the door who's got at minimum a certificate of education, can pass the ASVAB, and no criminal record. The US military compensates for the lack of quality servicemen by being heavily reliant on equipment and gear.
By design, one system would take almost everyone, then shape them into soldiers, while discharging people unable to make the cut along the way. Advantage is that you end up with a lot more people this way, but the cost of training is significantly higher, since you have to literally reshape previously unfit people into soldiers.
While the other just take people who appeared to be sort of a decent fit for military life already, then simply refine their skillset along the way. Less money is required in training programs, but you end up with a lot smaller pool of people to draw from.
>while discharging people unable to make the cut along the way
This part isn't true. The US military will do everything it can to retain even the biggest shitbags, at least through their first contract. You have to be a total screw up to get kicked out of the military. Like I said it's because the US is heavily reliant on gear and equipment to compensate for the subpar talent.
>Advantage is that you end up with a lot more people this way,
Which is why the US recruitment system is the way it is as America has a much larger scope of operation compared to most militaries. The US, as it stands, is the global policeman and in order to accomplish that it needs bodies to man ships, operate equipment, and garrison military bases, even if they're not a fit for the organization or the job.
Dont the mutts also have enough quality recruits to put good ones through further training programmes to join overall higher quality units .e.g. rangers? Is the training method the same there?
Why not just heavily educate the soldiers on the fly to bring them up to level? There's no reason to keep them stupid.
you seriously underestimate the stupidity of some recruits. for many, the constant screaming and berating to get them to hold to a standard IS an education.
>There's no reason to keep them stupid.
You can't fix stupid, but you can make it work for you
True, although bong army=small expeditionary army.
Mutt army=gigantic continental mass warfare army. Then again i think the mutts train even their elite units (rangers etc) with the same manner as they do newly enlisted mexicans, maybe some anon who has firsthand experience can say if so or not.
US military training was revamped heavily post WW2 through to Vietnam before any major downsizing took place (basically it didnt outside of the Navy)
The British immediately demobilized and massively shrunk its military post WW2, and then started instituting institutional and doctrinal changes in regards to training in the 50's and 60's.
As a result the British professionalized almost too much.
The US is the way it is because it was meant for a conscripted force. It wasn't even originally as "harsh" until post vietnam - because going crazy on conscripts = AWOL
The British system is designed to be ALOT more picky. Those they feel not up to it won't even get a chance to show up in their sunday jackets to have tea with the sergeant, they'll just get a NO letter like they got denied to Oxford or something.
TLDR the US stayed a conscript force through to the 1970's.
The British ended conscription before they adopted major institutional changes to training
They should have put some of that uniform budget to keeping your fleet from rusting and sinking
It’s nothing more than a glorified larp from a country with zero ability to project power in 2023.
France is a much more useful and capable ally so let’s see what their foreign legions up to
>he's still reposting this debunked meme article
Warriortard you're embarrassing yourself.
Who is this warriortard and why are the limeys on this board eternally seething about him
you can fill an average soccer stadium with the entire british military, its that small
>Ukraine has lose more personnel then all of England's military personnel!
>UK:
>royal marines starts with a literal wienertail evening in suits
>officers look like elegant noble chaps with a moustache and an education
>showing what to do, making time for recruiters to ask why and how
>not screaming much unless it's a timed march to push them a bit
>joke around calling people chaps and jolly good fellows asking like "well that certainly wouldn't be such a good idea to attack that way I would say"
>takes years to get a speciality like machine gunner or radio operator
Looks like an awful load of bullshit.
You should take a step back of "documentaries", they show you what they want to show you
In the french military for example, you will NEVER, ever, encounter a journalist roaming around without a communication officer behind his back. Whenever this lil homie is going off-script and it's done. That dude is gonna take a shit with somebody just in front of the door, so yeah, I don't watch documentaries for anything else than seeing nice pictures of various equipment
sure, but you get the general feel regardless. not saying they are showing everything
I've seen it referred to as "Burgoyne's revenge" but I've not been able to find the source of that reference.
I am sympathetic to the argument that in a multiracial shithole like the states you need to force men to build cameraderie, whereas when the men share most of their origins and the difference can be measured in the town you came from as in britain this isn't so difficult
But probably the british documentaries just don't show much of the beasting for cultural reasons
I mean somehow I doubt that a friday 8pm channel 4 documentary on royal marine training paints a totally accurate picture of it
For some reason I remember watching a doc from the afghan war which followed some british army sappers
Their officer (I can't remember if commissioned or non-) gives one of them a massive bollocking for not following proper procedures with the mine detector
I mean absolutely reaming him out, think he grabbed him by the collars and yanked him around screaming in his face even
But it was because if he gets lazy and stops following procedures he's that much more likely to miss a mine and blow himself up, which is obviously not what an officer wants his men to do
Because war tends to be aggressive and disrespectful. Idk why people expect the military to be some sort of regular 9-5 where your employer has to basically wipe your ass if he wants to keep you. The military shouldn't be calm or relaxed and if you can't handle a drill sergeant yelling at you then why do you think you'd be able to withstand the pressure of actual combat?
Men operate best when they act in a calm and measured manner and can communicate and act properly even under great pressure or adversity. A habit/culture of hysterical screaming isnt condusive outside of bayonet drills.
The point is to remain calm while everything is blowing up around you.
>Be taught to remain calm in a chaotic environment
vs
>Be taught to be calm in a calm environment
What do you think will be more effective when shit goes down?
In drill the instructor (authority) is screaming at you, the chaos is internal, they arent being taught to be calm in a chaotic environment theyre being taught screaming in a training environment. I'm not saying they should never shout, but the non stop screaming and hysteria will just encourage them to do the same instead of communicate properly and not panic.
I think that's bullshit. that hurr durr do as you're told NOW NOW NOW crap seems like a bad habbit and we you enter that mode you end up rushing empty airfields yelling shit like FOLLOW MY TRACERS because your lizard brain is in charge.
I get what you're trying to say but I'd say confidence in your abilities and knowing your limits (or how far you can push those) seems preferable. Like dude quiet guy who thinks instead of just being in a constant artificial hurry. With dudes who are in the boot camp state of mind you'll end up with someone getting shot due to friendly fire.
Ist not exactly a fair comparison but used to kickbox and felt super comfortable in the ring, or at least with most people I knew. You know where you're somewhat safe, where you're in danger, what the rules are, and so on. Never had anybody yell at me to do pushups or something, because why?
The stress the yelling is supposed to prepare you for imo mainly due to you being out of your depth and being overwelmed because you don't know what the frick you're doing or why or what is happening. But if you don't know what you're doing no amount of stress training will fix that.
saying usually newcomers aren't thrown to the wolves on their first day, like if you can't handle a sparring session how you're going to take a real fight. because that's dumb
it might work but it's not sustainable. at best it seems like a compromise because you're short of time or so
also for reference, I sparred with cops and soldiers who all did stress training stuff at one point and guess what? shit is fricking useless in the ring if you don't know how to fight. imagine someone who unironically think because they're hot shit in one area they're hot shit in another. or someone thinking he's guts from berserk and getting real mad is super impressive on its own
one last thing: if I was dealing with those dudes on the battlefield I'd be scared shitless and totally out of my element, but in context of a ring sport not so much.
I mean that the instructions and practice should be calm. Then you execute it in chaos
In all kinds of US training I see, they jump right into stuff and you need to like "learn as you go" instead of first practicing and be told how to climb a rope for example
but sure, maybe they always omit that part
See
. That is exactly how it works.
Lack of a class system and a Prussian starting our boot camp. It's mostly the Prussian though. He wasn't originally a competent English speaker but he was fluent in French, so they found an American to translate his insults and yelling in French into English.
Wir sind neu Preußen.
The bittersweet reality is, the US does have a similar manner of instruction, just not for basic recruits. The US military is concerned for more quantity when it comes to basic troops. When you get into more higher end/selective jobs. The instructors are far less dog headed screamers, and more "succeed or fail, IDGAF" mentality
>t. Former Muhreen and Marsoc fail
>Why is US training so aggressive and disrespectful compared to UK?
Yeah?
Ah...yeah
>>Why is US training so aggressive and disrespectful compared to UK?
kek so kind and living and gentle
don't need stress training to ride a rollercoaster because I know it's probably safe and even if it wasn't I'd either wouldn't get on in the first place or figure panic doesn't help
Finland has a conscript based army (6 - 13 months of training + reserve execises), and these guys have beat professional US, British and other NATO guys numerous times in various joint excercise war games and repeatedly shown that they are not to be underestimated.
Finnish signals reservists apparently defeated a U.S. Marine Corps helicopter assault. They were too well camouflaged and US reconnaissance did not spot them.
In another exercise in Norway, a Norwegian professional company failed to understand that forests + Finnish jaegers are a DANGEROUS combination.
A jaeger company infiltrated on foot and wiped out a mechanized company before they even realized what was happening.
Just wondering why?
Im getting tired of seeing this shit from Fingol's.
A monocultural, monoethnic conscripted force (that has had regular conscription for 18+ since before WW2) beats mutted multiethnic professional militaries because the monoethnic force's familiar home terrain is one of the most inhospitable winterey forested shithole on the planet.
If I put the FDF on training against the Georgia Army National Guard in the georgia swamps in Summer they are going to get fricking wrecked, right in the same manner as if I put the Costal Jaegers against a regular US army infantry unit at the NTC in Fort Irwin in the summertime.
Environment is everything, Finland has sharpened the FDF around its immediate environ - and you should expect nothing less from a "Defence Force"
>Paras
you cant compare them with us infantry
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One factor is probably size. Around 0.63% of the US population are in some form of military service, while it's only around 0.33% for the UK. You can be a lot more selective when you have a smaller force per capita, so you get the kind of people who really want to be there (and not just for free college or other benefits).
>and not just for free college or other benefits
This is actually a really important factor. Other than perhaps the pension there are no benefits that military personnel get that regular civilians already have.
This means the people walking into recruitment offices are doing so becouse they want to be soldiers. Not becouse they see it as the only way to get affordable education or healthcare.
compared to other entry level jobs in the uk its very appealing considering rent and food while not totally free is certainly much cheaper than you'll get elsewhere. For int the difference in training for analysts and civilian government analysts is like 2 weeks compared to 16
Anon, where the frick do you think the yanks learned it from?