Why don't you give some specifics? Are you just saying the multilug rotating bolt with a cam pin that rides in a track in the bolt carrier makes it based on the AR18?
>While the AR-18 was never adopted as the standard service rifle of any nation, its production license was sold to companies in Japan and the United Kingdom, and it is said to have influenced many later weapons such as the British SA80,[1][2][3] the Singaporean SAR-80 and SR-88,[3] the American Adaptive Combat Rifle, the Belgian FN F2000,[4] the Japanese Howa Type 89[5] and the German Heckler and Koch G36.[6][7][8] >But the true legacy of the AR-18 is all the 'modern' firearms that have adopted the bolt carrier group and operating system such as the H&K XM8 & G36, Bushmaster/Remington ACR, FN SCAR 16/17, South Korea Daewoo K1/k2, British L85A1/SA80 as well as the Singaporean SAR-80/SAR-88." >While the rifle was never extremely popular, it became incredibly influential in modern small-arms design. Rifles like the FS2000, the SCAR, the G36, the L85, and Singaporean SR-88 all have design influences from the AR-18. >H&K G36: Germany Adopts the 5.56mm Cartridge, The rifle is fundamentally an AR-18 derivative, with a multi-lug rotating bolt and a short stroke gas system of the G43 and SVT type.
11 months ago
Anonymous
You really just copypasted from Wikipedia, nice. >The rifle is fundamentally an AR-18 derivative, with a multi-lug rotating bolt and a short stroke gas system of the G43 and SVT type.
So, yeah. All you have is that it's a multilug rotating bolt. All trilug rotating bolt rifles are AK derivatives then, huh?
11 months ago
Anonymous
The ar18 was the first rifle to combine a tokarev style short stroke gas piston and a johnson style multilug bolt.
Golly anon, what do all of these rifles have in common with the ar18????
11 months ago
Anonymous
No, I quoted from 3 different sources, not just wiki
>short stroke
Arbitrary term for a strike piston >98% of the world's military
They would rather fold their stocks than chop barrels down to 14.5" or shorter
Shorter than the distance the bolt carrier moves, dumbass.
A piston that is being acted on by pressurized gas for a shorter length than the cartridge it is firing.
Then this must be a short stroke
11 months ago
Anonymous
Nah it's clearly a long stroke piston since it's integral to the bolt carrier.
11 months ago
Anonymous
I suppose it could be described that way anon.
Do you think this is some sort of gotcha?
I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions
11 months ago
Anonymous
Ok?
Gonna cry tranime homosexual?
11 months ago
Anonymous
I suppose it could be described that way anon.
Do you think this is some sort of gotcha?
11 months ago
Anonymous
It's DI with extra steps. Plug the gas key, making it blatantly DI, and the gun still cycles.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Its DI in the same way that gas is impinging directly on the bolt carrier, stoners design is more sophisticated than something like a Hakim.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Plug the gas key >the gun still cycles
No it won't, there's no piston rings on the outlet– it only works for the MAS 49/56 because of the tremendous radius and dwell time
11 months ago
Anonymous
Piston rings are not necessary with sufficient gas pressure.
Saiga shotguns don't have piston rings at all, for example and have much heavier bolt carriers with less gas pressure.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Saiga shotguns >less gas pressure
That's the tremendous piston radius and dwell time (.70" wide seal traveling less than 2000 FPS) I stipulated
>They would rather fold their stocks
No, most of the countries that matter are going for HK416s which don't fold. Because folding stocks are utterly useless in any and all scenarios. No, armies don't care about stuffing full size service rifles into backpacks because of truck gun memes.
Yup, if you take out the buffer tube you have to make the BCG 3-5oz like SIG or FM to get it running with two lil teeny tiny stuff as frick springs
Makes the gun shoot smoother than traditional op rod designed short strokes but who would've guessed that since stoner also designed that as well
Lower weight for your reciprocating mass isnt an inherent benefit dick weed, two smaller springs have their own set of drawbacks compared to a single larger one as well.
Militaries are conservative institutions, even those of European social democracies, they'd rather use tried and true concepts to innovate or do things different, even with novel concepts that have already been consolidated in the past, such as Stoner's gas impingement.
DI was good for it's time until it got exposed during times of war. US military never bothered to mend it's weakness and opted out for short strokers because they have small dicks.
This. Happened to the M16 and we still hear about how AR's are unreliable even the majority of the issues with it were fixed within a decade, over 40 years ago.
Only fudds perpetuate the "ARs are accurate but unreliable, AKs are inaccurate but reliable" myth.
It is barrel length agnostic. Because the gas is being tapped and transmitted to the carrier indirectly, you can more easily adjust the system for different gas pressures and different dwell times.
It is easier on maintenance than Stoner DI and doesn't have issues with having a fixed carrier mass that needs to be maintained like with long stroke mechanisms.
Unironically, I am curious to see if things start heading that direction. A small minority of people love to see that modern tappet pistons (SCAR, Spear) essentially function like long stroke pistons, even if they are still technically short strokes. Now the FN IWS uses a long stroke piston, and I'm wondering why exactly they decided on that.
They dont function at all like a long stroke piston, long stroke has the gas acting on the mechanism for much longer than the SCARs gas tappet.
Just because the bolt carrier groups of an ak and a scar are very vaguely similar doesnt make their function the same.
A fixed op rod =/= long stroke
I was more so referring to the recoil impulse and comparatively heavier bolt carrier group. Yes, internally they work differently, but shooting them in person there are more similarities than differences
My main thought about long stroke pistons coming into vogue like the FN IWS is that heavier BCG = more energy. Assuming the system is properly gassed.. >A heavier BCG should be affected by variances in cartridge pressures less than a light one during the backstroke. >A heavier BCG should be affected by carbon buildup in the chamber and variances in magazine spring weight on the forward stroke.
Compared to a lighter BCG with the same cyclic rate, of course.
11 months ago
Anonymous
There is definitely a benefit to the right amount of weight in any system, AR15s for instance really benefit from a few more ounces provided by an h2 buffer for that same reason.
Momentum is maybe a better word for it, you could get the same energy with a higher bolt speed but then you encounter other problems like outrunning the magazine spring like you mentioned. The SCAR and AK do have that mass than can help in adverse enviroments.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Momentum, yeah, probably the better way of putting it.
The tappet system is going to stick around for any gun that is expected to regularly swap between suppressed and unsuppressed.
For funs that are meant to be only used suppressed, forever and at all times, I think long stroke might make a comeback.
boomers who don't understand stoner's design.
The short stroke system everyone is using is Stoner's, dipshit.
>Short stroke is an AR-18 invention
Lel. Midwit talking point. Most out there are G36 or M1 carbine derived.
g36 is derived from ar18
Why don't you give some specifics? Are you just saying the multilug rotating bolt with a cam pin that rides in a track in the bolt carrier makes it based on the AR18?
>While the AR-18 was never adopted as the standard service rifle of any nation, its production license was sold to companies in Japan and the United Kingdom, and it is said to have influenced many later weapons such as the British SA80,[1][2][3] the Singaporean SAR-80 and SR-88,[3] the American Adaptive Combat Rifle, the Belgian FN F2000,[4] the Japanese Howa Type 89[5] and the German Heckler and Koch G36.[6][7][8]
>But the true legacy of the AR-18 is all the 'modern' firearms that have adopted the bolt carrier group and operating system such as the H&K XM8 & G36, Bushmaster/Remington ACR, FN SCAR 16/17, South Korea Daewoo K1/k2, British L85A1/SA80 as well as the Singaporean SAR-80/SAR-88."
>While the rifle was never extremely popular, it became incredibly influential in modern small-arms design. Rifles like the FS2000, the SCAR, the G36, the L85, and Singaporean SR-88 all have design influences from the AR-18.
>H&K G36: Germany Adopts the 5.56mm Cartridge, The rifle is fundamentally an AR-18 derivative, with a multi-lug rotating bolt and a short stroke gas system of the G43 and SVT type.
You really just copypasted from Wikipedia, nice.
>The rifle is fundamentally an AR-18 derivative, with a multi-lug rotating bolt and a short stroke gas system of the G43 and SVT type.
So, yeah. All you have is that it's a multilug rotating bolt. All trilug rotating bolt rifles are AK derivatives then, huh?
The ar18 was the first rifle to combine a tokarev style short stroke gas piston and a johnson style multilug bolt.
Golly anon, what do all of these rifles have in common with the ar18????
No, I quoted from 3 different sources, not just wiki
>short stroke
Arbitrary term for a strike piston
>98% of the world's military
They would rather fold their stocks than chop barrels down to 14.5" or shorter
>strike piston
Arbitrary term for a short stroke
Tell us, dip wad, how long a short stroke piston is
Yep, animation that History Channel of the '00s could afford
Being short stroke has less to do with the length of the piston, and more how it functions.
QED
"Short stroke" is just another automotive term Boomers started applying to firearms
i think you have autism m8
Wow, who knew language changes? Unfortunately autistics will rage into a panic over this inconsistency.
ESL detected. "short" doesn't modify piston, it modifies "stroke".
Tell us how long a short stroke is, dip wardo
inb4 wank jokes
shorter than a long stroke
Then this must be a short stroke
Nah it's clearly a long stroke piston since it's integral to the bolt carrier.
I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions
Ok?
Gonna cry tranime homosexual?
I suppose it could be described that way anon.
Do you think this is some sort of gotcha?
It's DI with extra steps. Plug the gas key, making it blatantly DI, and the gun still cycles.
Its DI in the same way that gas is impinging directly on the bolt carrier, stoners design is more sophisticated than something like a Hakim.
>Plug the gas key
>the gun still cycles
No it won't, there's no piston rings on the outlet– it only works for the MAS 49/56 because of the tremendous radius and dwell time
Piston rings are not necessary with sufficient gas pressure.
Saiga shotguns don't have piston rings at all, for example and have much heavier bolt carriers with less gas pressure.
>Saiga shotguns
>less gas pressure
That's the tremendous piston radius and dwell time (.70" wide seal traveling less than 2000 FPS) I stipulated
Shorter than the distance the bolt carrier moves, dumbass.
A piston that is being acted on by pressurized gas for a shorter length than the cartridge it is firing.
Wow, what an awful animation.
I mean it's pretty looking, but oh, so wrong.
>They would rather fold their stocks
No, most of the countries that matter are going for HK416s which don't fold. Because folding stocks are utterly useless in any and all scenarios. No, armies don't care about stuffing full size service rifles into backpacks because of truck gun memes.
Yup, if you take out the buffer tube you have to make the BCG 3-5oz like SIG or FM to get it running with two lil teeny tiny stuff as frick springs
Makes the gun shoot smoother than traditional op rod designed short strokes but who would've guessed that since stoner also designed that as well
Lower weight for your reciprocating mass isnt an inherent benefit dick weed, two smaller springs have their own set of drawbacks compared to a single larger one as well.
A smaller BCG is not a good thing.
>flexes your barrel
Nothing personnel, kiddo.
Need to have a long shaft to be able to do long strokes.
>Why is 98% of the world's military going short stroke?
nobody uses this shit, everyone uses ARs
Yes, AR-18 clones with the short stroke gas system from adapted from the SVT-40.
It seems like a good compromise. DI doesn't work with shitty propellant while long stroke gives you this huge mass shaking the gun.
>Why are people with practically unlimited money going for the best option?
Militaries are conservative institutions, even those of European social democracies, they'd rather use tried and true concepts to innovate or do things different, even with novel concepts that have already been consolidated in the past, such as Stoner's gas impingement.
DI was good for it's time until it got exposed during times of war. US military never bothered to mend it's weakness and opted out for short strokers because they have small dicks.
If the M4 were prone to failure in service, we'd be awash in horror stories. We aren't.
This. Happened to the M16 and we still hear about how AR's are unreliable even the majority of the issues with it were fixed within a decade, over 40 years ago.
Only fudds perpetuate the "ARs are accurate but unreliable, AKs are inaccurate but reliable" myth.
Your hand doesn't have to cover the whole length to feel good. Next question.
It is barrel length agnostic. Because the gas is being tapped and transmitted to the carrier indirectly, you can more easily adjust the system for different gas pressures and different dwell times.
It is easier on maintenance than Stoner DI and doesn't have issues with having a fixed carrier mass that needs to be maintained like with long stroke mechanisms.
spec ops dudes use di
That is the question.
Long stoke > short stroke piston.
Unironically, I am curious to see if things start heading that direction. A small minority of people love to see that modern tappet pistons (SCAR, Spear) essentially function like long stroke pistons, even if they are still technically short strokes. Now the FN IWS uses a long stroke piston, and I'm wondering why exactly they decided on that.
They dont function at all like a long stroke piston, long stroke has the gas acting on the mechanism for much longer than the SCARs gas tappet.
Just because the bolt carrier groups of an ak and a scar are very vaguely similar doesnt make their function the same.
A fixed op rod =/= long stroke
I was more so referring to the recoil impulse and comparatively heavier bolt carrier group. Yes, internally they work differently, but shooting them in person there are more similarities than differences
I can agree with that, at least with the scar anyway, there is a boatload of reciprocating mass there which is very AK like.
My main thought about long stroke pistons coming into vogue like the FN IWS is that heavier BCG = more energy. Assuming the system is properly gassed..
>A heavier BCG should be affected by variances in cartridge pressures less than a light one during the backstroke.
>A heavier BCG should be affected by carbon buildup in the chamber and variances in magazine spring weight on the forward stroke.
Compared to a lighter BCG with the same cyclic rate, of course.
There is definitely a benefit to the right amount of weight in any system, AR15s for instance really benefit from a few more ounces provided by an h2 buffer for that same reason.
Momentum is maybe a better word for it, you could get the same energy with a higher bolt speed but then you encounter other problems like outrunning the magazine spring like you mentioned. The SCAR and AK do have that mass than can help in adverse enviroments.
Momentum, yeah, probably the better way of putting it.
The tappet system is going to stick around for any gun that is expected to regularly swap between suppressed and unsuppressed.
For funs that are meant to be only used suppressed, forever and at all times, I think long stroke might make a comeback.
Cuz they got short pp
suppressors
When you really get down to it, all guns are piston gun, it's just a matter of what you consider to be the piston.