If only there was a lightweight rifle with reasonable range, power, and accuracy for officers and rear echelon troops... Just modernize this concept with a round like 5.7.
>whatever ammo they want
But not 9x19 AP because civilians aren't allowed to buy it and the military isn't interested in buying it so no one feels the need to create it.
None of the people they plan to shoot with those 9mm firearms are wearing armor. Most are just wrapped in bedsheets, which any 9mm FMJ can easily penetrate.
>the gubmint made it illegal for civilians, so there's no development there and the military just doesn't give a frick about pistol calibers
handguns in the us military are fashion accessories, outside of spec ops who buy whatever ammo they want
>handguns in the us military are fashion accessories, outside of spec ops who buy whatever ammo they want
This. To some extent arguably that's the case even for service rifles under current doctrine, just look how NGSW was run. Sure service rifle matters on some level but really what the military cared about was the LMG.
But smgs let alone sidearms are now hyper niche at best (and shrinking further as time goes by).
>Sure service rifle matters on some level but really what the military cared about was the LMG.
Then why did the program rules specify something along these lines? >"this is mainly about the rifle and the automatic variant is secondary, also it doesn't have to be belt fed so it can just straight up not be an actual machine gun"
It was a way to shovel more tax money into Sig's pockets.
>Then why did the program rules specify something along these lines? >>"this is mainly about the rifle and the automatic variant is secondary, also it doesn't have to be belt fed so it can just straight up not be an actual machine gun"
Welcome to the bullshit of major military procurement. >It was a way to shovel more tax money into Sig's pockets.
Yes. Or at least, kinda, there is also the issue of brass who are totally disconnected from any considerations on the ground and tied to old doctrine and ideas from decades ago.
pretty much this. inner city cops and feds started getting scared of Black folk with “cop killer” bullets, so they brought the ban hammer down on them. fricking no fun allowed homosexuals.
This logic baffles me >super duper AP exploding expanding vaporizing bullets are le dangerous!
No shit they're bullets >but they kill faster!
Yes? But it's only applicable to their intended use (hunting, combat, self-defense) where the few seconds faster incapacitation is the difference between getting killed or losing your game. Doesn't really matter when someone's shot in the chest and left without aid for 10 minutes
>the gubmint made it illegal for civilians, so there's no development there and the military just doesn't give a frick about pistol calibers
[...] >handguns in the us military are fashion accessories, outside of spec ops who buy whatever ammo they want
This. To some extent arguably that's the case even for service rifles under current doctrine, just look how NGSW was run. Sure service rifle matters on some level but really what the military cared about was the LMG.
But smgs let alone sidearms are now hyper niche at best (and shrinking further as time goes by).
NATO standardization in general has hurt cartridge caliber development, especially in handguns. Companies produce what's in demand which is 9x19mm and a few legacy calibers that have some following, which means everything else besides 9x19 is expensive and in turn pistol manufacturers naturally cater to what's most in demand.
Is it time for NATO or someone else to dump 9x19mm? What cartridges do y'all think would be a better replacement?? Could .30 Super Carry be a contender? It's roughly the same as 9mm in power and recoil but since it's slimmer and taller, it provides more numerous round capacity. For people who genuinely want more power and don't care about the capacity, there's already 10mm and.45 ACP. For people who want a shorter round, there's .40 S&W.
If we can break the hegemony of 9x19 and fracture that segment, I believe it would increase demand for everything else, albeit marginally, and thereby decrease the insane price disparity with other ammo across the board. Currently, economies of scale are far too in favor of 9x19mm.
No you fricking sperg. What would be the point? What handgun development do you imagine happening that actually is useful? NATO standardization hasn't hurt rifle cartridge experiments in the slightest, there are a billion options there since there is a massive envelope. But handguns are finished with any conventional design. The use case for handguns is physically tight. Change just for the sake of change is moronic.
9mm is just plain good as a handgun round. Not perfect for sure, but it happens to strike a very solid combination of attributes. It became very popular long, long before any sort of standardization. The problem with people who want to "improve" is that they generally focus on just one or two attributes. But the super majority of handguns are for concealment and use by people with low training in them. So small is good. Reasonably low recoil is good. Reasonable flash is good. <4" barrel isn't much to work with. Armor is basically never encountered in a situation where a handgun is the only response vs just using a rifle, etc. Stats show that needing >8 rounds happens like, never.
Basically handguns by their nature embody compromises and strict limits imposed by human biology, culture and so on. If we ever do some major shift for other reasons, like electronically fired guns with PCT cartridges or something, maybe then it'll make sense to also play with caliber and pressure ANYWAY. It's possible to imagine some complex bullet types that could combine better performance with the same recoil and lifespan envelope and all that. But it's a much much higher bar then people tend to consider at first glance.
basically tl;dr: you have causality reversed. 9mm isn't popular because it's a standard, it was standardized on because it's popular, and it's popular because it strikes a good balance.
If anything there should be more focus on 9x19 instead of meme calibers like 5.7 and 4.7. If pistols are an afterthought then they should stick to low cost calibers with proven designs instead of new incremental meme stuff. I think 5.7 is a fine cartridge but I also think it doesn't make sense cost-wise for a gun nobody's going to need to use but will have to shoot plenty for qualification and training. PDWs in meme calibers should probably stick to +p steel core 9mm or short barrel ARs.
Military doesn't care about pistols, as mentioned they are basically accessories and obligatory defensive weapons for MPs, duty officers, medics and staff officers in the field. They are literally never used, definitely not offensively against heavily armored threats, so there's no point. Even armor piercing 7.62x51 and .50BMG is rarely used, almost nobody has seen that stuff. Even for our military it's too expensive, multiple times more than FMJ. If you get a belt of 7.62 with a tracer every fifth round you're lucky
Mostly because hardened steel alloys are not able to defeat ceramic plates, and the list of remaining "suitable" materials for proper pistol caliber AP come down to tungsten carbide and depleted uranium. These will never be used (wasted) in mass-issued handgun calibers. They may continue to see limited use (for tungsten, DU is off limits bc of the DoE) in improved variamts of M993/M995 for spec ops units (and the DoE).
That being said, there are some interesting AP handgun rounds out there proffered for the likes of secret service, which is really where a short-range lvl3 defeating pistol round might be deemed necessary. Take the "Stilleto" design, which appears to employ a full case length steel body as something akin to a gyro-jet body, with a tungsten carbide tip. In an executive protection role, where the protection element can't necessarily roll with short barreled rifles, having extremely hot AP rounds that have a chance of defeating hard plate armor and being much less subject to deflection by intermediate barriers might be worth the extreme cost.
And similarly, a private citizen might want something approximating AP handgun rounds, if they believe they would be reliant on primarily handguns for defense, due to their concealability and portability. >picrel, german MD91, a tungsten carbide cored 9x19 projectile launching an 80gn projectile around 1500fps muzzle velocity.
>which appears to employ a full case length steel body as something akin to a gyro-jet body,
It appears to be written by a schizophrenic. Ram-jets have an air intake and would be shit at close range, you know, where you use pistols.
Perhaps the idea is that the full length body accomplishes a few things. 1, it entirely eliminates the risk of bullet setback. 2, it means that you have a forward heavy, fairly long-in-relation-to-caliber projectiles that can tumble and yaw causing additional soft tissue damage. 3, for the loss in case capacity vs traditional 9x19 cartridges, you have the ability to reduce the effect of barrel length from the velocity/energy side of your concern (or at least minimize its effects). Bbll length becomes a concern simply for stabilization. An AP projectile that is both meeting your minimum muzzle velocity number, and still capable of accelerating within the typical 7yd handgun engagement distance, is one that will be more effective than one that meets a higher initial velocity, but slows dramatically due to poor BC and low mass. If it still uses a normal nitrocellulose powder, it doesn't need an air intake for the additional fraction of a seconds efficient combustion time it could experience in flight, powders already have enough oxygen to burn in space and underwater.
https://i.imgur.com/uIfbfux.jpg
>Mostly because hardened steel alloys are not able to defeat ceramic plates
Even without plates penetration pistol AP is userfull because of the kevlar frag armor in the military context. Area covered by plates is 2-3 times less than area covered by helmet and kevlar only that can penetrated by pistol steel core AP.
Also considering military doesn't run hollow points you dint really lose anything when you introduce AP rounds instead of FMJ.
This is a fair point, and oxide on yt has some test of the 7H21-1 round, which is the heavy, lead sleeved version of the steel cored AP 9x19 the russian developed. He didnt fire them through a chrono, and he fired them out of an AK based PCC woth something like a 12-13" barrel, but both rounds penetrated the new kevlar/uhmwpe helmet the US Army has begun to issue, with the lead sleeve and gilding metal jacket having enough mass to cause significant backface deformation. >military doesn't use hollowpoints.
The US abides by the Geneva conventions, to some extent, but we are not a signatory, and are not bound by it. As
>military doesn't run hollow points
US military adopted the M1153 which is a hollow point after adopting the M17. There's plenty of people MPs and SOF might have shoot that don't wear body armour.
points out, we actually do have an adopted JHP round for 9x19. There's also nothing against using something like picrel which is a monolithic hollowpoint that uses a steel or tungsten ballistic tip insert to enhance barrier blindness/penetration.
It could be using that word colloquially, as most in procurement would have heard of ramjet in the context of "fast rockets and planes," so it makes it an easier sell than "hey, we here at 'XYZ Corp' want to help you shoot 60% more bullet, with each bullet." Don't be pedantic. Yes, it's clearly not a ramjet. However its a projectile that contains the combustion chamber for its powder charge. While tying itself to ye olden tiem gyrojet might not go well, saying ramjet can help them get the concept of "we use a powder charge that is capable of pushing the projectile to the minimum velocity threshold for this design from extremely short barreled, compsct and sub-compsct pistols that your personnel might carry, directly at the end of the muzzle, and our projectile continues to accelerate to its maximum acheivable velocity within the typical handgun engagement range, meaning we extract more energy from 'n' charge weight, without the need to produce out of standard spec chamber pressures, and without significant recoil changes" across. This companies page is also apparently down, who knows if the design even went anywhere, however, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round, so I posted it due to its relevance to the topic.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round,
You should borrow someone's brain before posting. Go pull a patent for anti-gravity technology, you'll add as much to the discussion.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Go pull a patent for anti-gravity technology, you'll add as much to the discussion.
there are clearly tremendous tactical implications for an antigravity propelled 9mm round with a neutronium penetrator! >Velocity: 33760fps >Penetrator core weight: 33.4 million metric tons
this could definitely defeat existing body armor, even level IV plates.
nta but was kind of wondering if all those perforations combined with the dynamics of the round in flight caused it to suck in air and burn a bit longer. Your guess that it's just bullshit may be more accurate. But I've long sort of wondered if we might not see a hybrid-gyrojet return at some point for rifles. Something with a conventional first stage blast but then a rocket second stage, which would negate the gyrojet's major short coming (slow exit/poor muzzle velocity) but then offer higher speeds then what is achievable out even a very long barreled rifle, and could do it from a short barrel, all with much less recoil on top. The manufacturing consistency challenges the gyrojet rounds had would have been completely negated by the 90s let alone with modern CNC and robotic assembly. A rifle round with ~2.6-3k fps muzzle velocity but then could hit 5-6k fps after 20yd would be interesting.
Of course that's still not a (sc)ramjet that'd be a rocket.
11 months ago
Anonymous
I don't thonk those are perforations, I believe they are meant to represent the powder charge.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Oh, in that case yes that's just moronic bullshit language then. I thought we might be looking at something more interesting.
It could be using that word colloquially, as most in procurement would have heard of ramjet in the context of "fast rockets and planes," so it makes it an easier sell than "hey, we here at 'XYZ Corp' want to help you shoot 60% more bullet, with each bullet." Don't be pedantic. Yes, it's clearly not a ramjet. However its a projectile that contains the combustion chamber for its powder charge. While tying itself to ye olden tiem gyrojet might not go well, saying ramjet can help them get the concept of "we use a powder charge that is capable of pushing the projectile to the minimum velocity threshold for this design from extremely short barreled, compsct and sub-compsct pistols that your personnel might carry, directly at the end of the muzzle, and our projectile continues to accelerate to its maximum acheivable velocity within the typical handgun engagement range, meaning we extract more energy from 'n' charge weight, without the need to produce out of standard spec chamber pressures, and without significant recoil changes" across. This companies page is also apparently down, who knows if the design even went anywhere, however, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round, so I posted it due to its relevance to the topic.
>Don't be pedantic
There is nothing wrong with wanting precise language in weapons design don't be a homosexual. "Ramjet" has specific and important unique meaning, it's not about "feeling fast".
Particularly because given the kinds of crazy R&D efforts the military has pursued, it wouldn't at all be inconceivable if someone really did try to do a ramjet or scramjet bullet. Weird and probably wouldn't work or be worth it, sure, but if someone showed DARPA or whomever funded "scramjet bullet" research for a decade before canning it I wouldn't consider that particularly shocking.
10 months ago
Anonymous
This all stems from a screenshot, of the partial wayback machine archive screenshot, of a relatively unknown AP handgun rounds public-facing sales pitch page. I think making a concession for imprecise language -from the manufacturers trying to gin up sales from various police and military services- is perfectly acceptable. What information have you found for the stilleto round, to include precise testing and evaluation data? Would you even be aware of such a rounds potential existence if I hadn't post a screengrab of a now defunct page from years and years ago? No? Frick off then. Especially because you brought nothing of any value to the thread topic.
>, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round,
You should borrow someone's brain before posting. Go pull a patent for anti-gravity technology, you'll add as much to the discussion.
The least racist dipshit on the web. I would have been less insulted to have been called a Black person.
See the top paragraph.
This logic baffles me >super duper AP exploding expanding vaporizing bullets are le dangerous!
No shit they're bullets >but they kill faster!
Yes? But it's only applicable to their intended use (hunting, combat, self-defense) where the few seconds faster incapacitation is the difference between getting killed or losing your game. Doesn't really matter when someone's shot in the chest and left without aid for 10 minutes
It's about taking yet another slice at the capability for the common man to come together with his neighbor and have some sort of parity with a gov't force they wish to oppose, whether it's simply local or state police, a small group of federal agents acting outside their constitutional framework, or otherwise. This is also why the DoD was so happy to sell armored vehicles and MRAPs to every dipshit backwater podunk local law enforcement that stuck a thumb out. By dispersing armored vehicles that are capable of withstanding high velocity rifle fire, it emboldens local LE to further act as an enforcer of policies/regulations/law that are wildly unpopular with the populace.
>Mostly because hardened steel alloys are not able to defeat ceramic plates
Even without plates penetration pistol AP is userfull because of the kevlar frag armor in the military context. Area covered by plates is 2-3 times less than area covered by helmet and kevlar only that can penetrated by pistol steel core AP.
Also considering military doesn't run hollow points you dint really lose anything when you introduce AP rounds instead of FMJ.
US military adopted the M1153 which is a hollow point after adopting the M17. There's plenty of people MPs and SOF might have shoot that don't wear body armour.
We use rifles for going through armor.
the gubmint made it illegal for civilians, so there's no development there and the military just doesn't give a frick about pistol calibers
They still issue 9mm handguns and have recently purchased some 9mm SMGs. Why not have more capable ammo for these as an option?
handguns in the us military are fashion accessories, outside of spec ops who buy whatever ammo they want
If only there was a lightweight rifle with reasonable range, power, and accuracy for officers and rear echelon troops... Just modernize this concept with a round like 5.7.
>M1 carbine in 5.7mm
Stop, I can only get so hard.
They explored this concept in the 60s with the .22 Spitfire, which appears to push the same weight bullet a few hundred FPS faster.
Luv me Bean. Even the lightest and most bare bones M4 will never be as handy as it for non combat personell.
Like an AR-15 type thing?
A loaded M1 Carbine with a polymer stock would weigh less than 5 lbs.
Wa-la
m1 carbine is about 4.7lbs loaded
unrelated but dont ever rest your can on a surface. it will WILDLY shift your point of impact
>whatever ammo they want
But not 9x19 AP because civilians aren't allowed to buy it and the military isn't interested in buying it so no one feels the need to create it.
None of the people they plan to shoot with those 9mm firearms are wearing armor. Most are just wrapped in bedsheets, which any 9mm FMJ can easily penetrate.
>the gubmint made it illegal for civilians, so there's no development there and the military just doesn't give a frick about pistol calibers
>handguns in the us military are fashion accessories, outside of spec ops who buy whatever ammo they want
This. To some extent arguably that's the case even for service rifles under current doctrine, just look how NGSW was run. Sure service rifle matters on some level but really what the military cared about was the LMG.
But smgs let alone sidearms are now hyper niche at best (and shrinking further as time goes by).
>Sure service rifle matters on some level but really what the military cared about was the LMG.
Then why did the program rules specify something along these lines?
>"this is mainly about the rifle and the automatic variant is secondary, also it doesn't have to be belt fed so it can just straight up not be an actual machine gun"
It was a way to shovel more tax money into Sig's pockets.
>Then why did the program rules specify something along these lines?
>>"this is mainly about the rifle and the automatic variant is secondary, also it doesn't have to be belt fed so it can just straight up not be an actual machine gun"
Welcome to the bullshit of major military procurement.
>It was a way to shovel more tax money into Sig's pockets.
Yes. Or at least, kinda, there is also the issue of brass who are totally disconnected from any considerations on the ground and tied to old doctrine and ideas from decades ago.
pretty much this. inner city cops and feds started getting scared of Black folk with “cop killer” bullets, so they brought the ban hammer down on them. fricking no fun allowed homosexuals.
This logic baffles me
>super duper AP exploding expanding vaporizing bullets are le dangerous!
No shit they're bullets
>but they kill faster!
Yes? But it's only applicable to their intended use (hunting, combat, self-defense) where the few seconds faster incapacitation is the difference between getting killed or losing your game. Doesn't really matter when someone's shot in the chest and left without aid for 10 minutes
NATO standardization in general has hurt cartridge caliber development, especially in handguns. Companies produce what's in demand which is 9x19mm and a few legacy calibers that have some following, which means everything else besides 9x19 is expensive and in turn pistol manufacturers naturally cater to what's most in demand.
Is it time for NATO or someone else to dump 9x19mm? What cartridges do y'all think would be a better replacement?? Could .30 Super Carry be a contender? It's roughly the same as 9mm in power and recoil but since it's slimmer and taller, it provides more numerous round capacity. For people who genuinely want more power and don't care about the capacity, there's already 10mm and.45 ACP. For people who want a shorter round, there's .40 S&W.
If we can break the hegemony of 9x19 and fracture that segment, I believe it would increase demand for everything else, albeit marginally, and thereby decrease the insane price disparity with other ammo across the board. Currently, economies of scale are far too in favor of 9x19mm.
No you fricking sperg. What would be the point? What handgun development do you imagine happening that actually is useful? NATO standardization hasn't hurt rifle cartridge experiments in the slightest, there are a billion options there since there is a massive envelope. But handguns are finished with any conventional design. The use case for handguns is physically tight. Change just for the sake of change is moronic.
9mm is just plain good as a handgun round. Not perfect for sure, but it happens to strike a very solid combination of attributes. It became very popular long, long before any sort of standardization. The problem with people who want to "improve" is that they generally focus on just one or two attributes. But the super majority of handguns are for concealment and use by people with low training in them. So small is good. Reasonably low recoil is good. Reasonable flash is good. <4" barrel isn't much to work with. Armor is basically never encountered in a situation where a handgun is the only response vs just using a rifle, etc. Stats show that needing >8 rounds happens like, never.
Basically handguns by their nature embody compromises and strict limits imposed by human biology, culture and so on. If we ever do some major shift for other reasons, like electronically fired guns with PCT cartridges or something, maybe then it'll make sense to also play with caliber and pressure ANYWAY. It's possible to imagine some complex bullet types that could combine better performance with the same recoil and lifespan envelope and all that. But it's a much much higher bar then people tend to consider at first glance.
basically tl;dr: you have causality reversed. 9mm isn't popular because it's a standard, it was standardized on because it's popular, and it's popular because it strikes a good balance.
If anything there should be more focus on 9x19 instead of meme calibers like 5.7 and 4.7. If pistols are an afterthought then they should stick to low cost calibers with proven designs instead of new incremental meme stuff. I think 5.7 is a fine cartridge but I also think it doesn't make sense cost-wise for a gun nobody's going to need to use but will have to shoot plenty for qualification and training. PDWs in meme calibers should probably stick to +p steel core 9mm or short barrel ARs.
because no one cares about penetrating soft armor anymore and you are simply not getting the velocity you need to penetrate hard armor with 9mm
Military doesn't care about pistols, as mentioned they are basically accessories and obligatory defensive weapons for MPs, duty officers, medics and staff officers in the field. They are literally never used, definitely not offensively against heavily armored threats, so there's no point. Even armor piercing 7.62x51 and .50BMG is rarely used, almost nobody has seen that stuff. Even for our military it's too expensive, multiple times more than FMJ. If you get a belt of 7.62 with a tracer every fifth round you're lucky
Mostly because hardened steel alloys are not able to defeat ceramic plates, and the list of remaining "suitable" materials for proper pistol caliber AP come down to tungsten carbide and depleted uranium. These will never be used (wasted) in mass-issued handgun calibers. They may continue to see limited use (for tungsten, DU is off limits bc of the DoE) in improved variamts of M993/M995 for spec ops units (and the DoE).
That being said, there are some interesting AP handgun rounds out there proffered for the likes of secret service, which is really where a short-range lvl3 defeating pistol round might be deemed necessary. Take the "Stilleto" design, which appears to employ a full case length steel body as something akin to a gyro-jet body, with a tungsten carbide tip. In an executive protection role, where the protection element can't necessarily roll with short barreled rifles, having extremely hot AP rounds that have a chance of defeating hard plate armor and being much less subject to deflection by intermediate barriers might be worth the extreme cost.
And similarly, a private citizen might want something approximating AP handgun rounds, if they believe they would be reliant on primarily handguns for defense, due to their concealability and portability.
>picrel, german MD91, a tungsten carbide cored 9x19 projectile launching an 80gn projectile around 1500fps muzzle velocity.
>which appears to employ a full case length steel body as something akin to a gyro-jet body,
It appears to be written by a schizophrenic. Ram-jets have an air intake and would be shit at close range, you know, where you use pistols.
Perhaps the idea is that the full length body accomplishes a few things. 1, it entirely eliminates the risk of bullet setback. 2, it means that you have a forward heavy, fairly long-in-relation-to-caliber projectiles that can tumble and yaw causing additional soft tissue damage. 3, for the loss in case capacity vs traditional 9x19 cartridges, you have the ability to reduce the effect of barrel length from the velocity/energy side of your concern (or at least minimize its effects). Bbll length becomes a concern simply for stabilization. An AP projectile that is both meeting your minimum muzzle velocity number, and still capable of accelerating within the typical 7yd handgun engagement distance, is one that will be more effective than one that meets a higher initial velocity, but slows dramatically due to poor BC and low mass. If it still uses a normal nitrocellulose powder, it doesn't need an air intake for the additional fraction of a seconds efficient combustion time it could experience in flight, powders already have enough oxygen to burn in space and underwater.
This is a fair point, and oxide on yt has some test of the 7H21-1 round, which is the heavy, lead sleeved version of the steel cored AP 9x19 the russian developed. He didnt fire them through a chrono, and he fired them out of an AK based PCC woth something like a 12-13" barrel, but both rounds penetrated the new kevlar/uhmwpe helmet the US Army has begun to issue, with the lead sleeve and gilding metal jacket having enough mass to cause significant backface deformation.
>military doesn't use hollowpoints.
The US abides by the Geneva conventions, to some extent, but we are not a signatory, and are not bound by it. As
points out, we actually do have an adopted JHP round for 9x19. There's also nothing against using something like picrel which is a monolithic hollowpoint that uses a steel or tungsten ballistic tip insert to enhance barrier blindness/penetration.
>Perhaps
But thats not what what it says. It says ramjet chamber, which it clearly is not.
It could be using that word colloquially, as most in procurement would have heard of ramjet in the context of "fast rockets and planes," so it makes it an easier sell than "hey, we here at 'XYZ Corp' want to help you shoot 60% more bullet, with each bullet." Don't be pedantic. Yes, it's clearly not a ramjet. However its a projectile that contains the combustion chamber for its powder charge. While tying itself to ye olden tiem gyrojet might not go well, saying ramjet can help them get the concept of "we use a powder charge that is capable of pushing the projectile to the minimum velocity threshold for this design from extremely short barreled, compsct and sub-compsct pistols that your personnel might carry, directly at the end of the muzzle, and our projectile continues to accelerate to its maximum acheivable velocity within the typical handgun engagement range, meaning we extract more energy from 'n' charge weight, without the need to produce out of standard spec chamber pressures, and without significant recoil changes" across. This companies page is also apparently down, who knows if the design even went anywhere, however, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round, so I posted it due to its relevance to the topic.
>, it was at least a design for a handgun AP round,
You should borrow someone's brain before posting. Go pull a patent for anti-gravity technology, you'll add as much to the discussion.
>Go pull a patent for anti-gravity technology, you'll add as much to the discussion.
there are clearly tremendous tactical implications for an antigravity propelled 9mm round with a neutronium penetrator!
>Velocity: 33760fps
>Penetrator core weight: 33.4 million metric tons
this could definitely defeat existing body armor, even level IV plates.
nta but was kind of wondering if all those perforations combined with the dynamics of the round in flight caused it to suck in air and burn a bit longer. Your guess that it's just bullshit may be more accurate. But I've long sort of wondered if we might not see a hybrid-gyrojet return at some point for rifles. Something with a conventional first stage blast but then a rocket second stage, which would negate the gyrojet's major short coming (slow exit/poor muzzle velocity) but then offer higher speeds then what is achievable out even a very long barreled rifle, and could do it from a short barrel, all with much less recoil on top. The manufacturing consistency challenges the gyrojet rounds had would have been completely negated by the 90s let alone with modern CNC and robotic assembly. A rifle round with ~2.6-3k fps muzzle velocity but then could hit 5-6k fps after 20yd would be interesting.
Of course that's still not a (sc)ramjet that'd be a rocket.
I don't thonk those are perforations, I believe they are meant to represent the powder charge.
Oh, in that case yes that's just moronic bullshit language then. I thought we might be looking at something more interesting.
>Don't be pedantic
There is nothing wrong with wanting precise language in weapons design don't be a homosexual. "Ramjet" has specific and important unique meaning, it's not about "feeling fast".
Particularly because given the kinds of crazy R&D efforts the military has pursued, it wouldn't at all be inconceivable if someone really did try to do a ramjet or scramjet bullet. Weird and probably wouldn't work or be worth it, sure, but if someone showed DARPA or whomever funded "scramjet bullet" research for a decade before canning it I wouldn't consider that particularly shocking.
This all stems from a screenshot, of the partial wayback machine archive screenshot, of a relatively unknown AP handgun rounds public-facing sales pitch page. I think making a concession for imprecise language -from the manufacturers trying to gin up sales from various police and military services- is perfectly acceptable. What information have you found for the stilleto round, to include precise testing and evaluation data? Would you even be aware of such a rounds potential existence if I hadn't post a screengrab of a now defunct page from years and years ago? No? Frick off then. Especially because you brought nothing of any value to the thread topic.
The least racist dipshit on the web. I would have been less insulted to have been called a Black person.
See the top paragraph.
It's about taking yet another slice at the capability for the common man to come together with his neighbor and have some sort of parity with a gov't force they wish to oppose, whether it's simply local or state police, a small group of federal agents acting outside their constitutional framework, or otherwise. This is also why the DoD was so happy to sell armored vehicles and MRAPs to every dipshit backwater podunk local law enforcement that stuck a thumb out. By dispersing armored vehicles that are capable of withstanding high velocity rifle fire, it emboldens local LE to further act as an enforcer of policies/regulations/law that are wildly unpopular with the populace.
>Mostly because hardened steel alloys are not able to defeat ceramic plates
Even without plates penetration pistol AP is userfull because of the kevlar frag armor in the military context. Area covered by plates is 2-3 times less than area covered by helmet and kevlar only that can penetrated by pistol steel core AP.
Also considering military doesn't run hollow points you dint really lose anything when you introduce AP rounds instead of FMJ.
>military doesn't run hollow points
US military adopted the M1153 which is a hollow point after adopting the M17. There's plenty of people MPs and SOF might have shoot that don't wear body armour.
5.7x28 exist if you want an AP pistol round
Not logistic friendly.
Fricking belgians, bro.
>5.7x28 exist if you want an AP pistol round
Spotted the noguns memer.