Why exactly did .45 go out of fashion?
>muh mag size
Literally hire humans with higher IQ and physical prowess. If you have 3 magazines within an arms reach and are unable to hit a moving target you should not own a firearm
>muh lethality
The average law enforcement glowie mag dumps anything that moves anyway hence that 'argument' is invalid
They never were in, it was mostly used by military (most of whom never shot in combat) , and military larpers .
Police who shoot people for a living with pistol as primary, preffered double action revolvers in 9mm caliber (.38 special, .357 magnum) and then in 1980's switched to wonder nines , which were 9mm (9x19) double action semis with double stack magazines.
TLDR : born wrong caliber, die wrong caliber.
>conveniently leaves out the middle child caliber
Nobody cares about the middle child
shut up goofy homie
my lil sis runs a .45
why are 9gays such gays?
Yea, look at her kiddie gripping instead of safety riding like she should
>kiddie gripping
Those farmgirl hands could crush your leg without trying.
Okay grandpa
problem, kiddo?
.45 is for women that's why your lil sis chose it. You must be one too xir
literal reddit troony opinion lmao
you fit in perfectly there
even redditors can occasionally recognize good advice and parrot it back.
Now the homos who have never carried a gun professionally or left the house are the holster police too.
>actual xer is a 9gay
ha
Super cute.
9gays need the economical but somewhat weaker choice to also be the best in every way ever so they ignore knockdown power, which is real.
>love me 1911
>love me 45acp
>love me recoil
>'ate caliber wars
Simple as
A bigger hole only matters if the difference in radii (not diameters; radii) is the difference between a CNS hit and a CNS miss. The rest is just chaff.
This.
Fact: By picking a bigger round you are tacitly admitting that you doubt your ability to place shots accurately and you hope the bigger round makes up the difference.
Your argument is unpersuasive. By picking a bigger round, I'm accepting a smaller magazine capacity, which means I'm confident in my ability to accurately place my shots. It's the doublestack capacity dawgs who are admitting they need more ammo because they'll likely miss a few
A .22 caliber hole in a brain, heart, or major artery makes someone just as dead as a .45 caliber hole in the same place. What exactly do you think you gain by using .45 rather than the smallest gun that will reasonably do the job? Muh expansion? Muh wound cavity? None of that shit even matters if you put rounds into vitals.
What sinks a boat faster? A golf ball sized hole or a bowling ball sized hole?
weight of your mom
The hole in the helmsman steering the boat. Or the hole in the fuel system that stops the boats engine. Now you don't have to wait for the boat to sink.
Looks like the point I made in
still stands. You're trying to compensate for bad aim with bigger bullets.
>b-b-but the bigger bullet makes them bleed out in 4 minutes and 50 seconds instead of 5 minutes!
If you hit their vitals then you don't have to wait.
And you're compensating for bad aim with higher capacity
Assuming we both have bad aim, I have more chances to make cns hits than you do. Assuming we both have good aim, I have more chances to make cns hits than you do. Capacity is king Black person, and shot placement is the ace in the hole.
In real life people don't generally stand there and let you shoot them. It does sometimes happen, but you shouldn't count on it.
Post times you've shot people IRL
Wait, who am i kidding? You
don't even own guns
Bleeding does not kill, holes through important organs do.
>bleeding doesn't kill
Lmao the bait gets weaker all the time
I meant to say incapacitate. But bleeding though a hole is going to take a long time to kill, unless you put a hole through a vital organ like an artery.
>an artery is an organ
No, but point taken. Bigger hole in an organ = quicker incapacitation
>Put .75" hole in organ
>Artery feeding it is only .5"
O fug muh bowlerino balls tho
> Bleeding does not kill
Bleeding out is like the main mechanism by which a gunshot kills.
Lemme unmoron your analogy for you.
A boat is coming straight for you at 60mph. In approximately two seconds it will hit and kill you. What sinks it faster, a baseball sized hole or a softball sized hole?
Oh wait it doesn't fricking matter unless you hit the driver
>hit the driver
>boat maintains speed and probably course
>boat throttle doesn't work like car throttle
It's okay anon not all of us are wealthy enough to live the lake life
Your analogy is even more moronic though tbh
skinnyfat
>A boat is coming straight for you at 60mph. In approximately two seconds it will hit and kill you. What sinks it faster, a baseball sized hole or a softball sized hole?
neither will sink the boat in 2 seconds. what stops the boat is a hole in the fuel line, and it doesn't matter if it's just marble-sized.
The boat and holes do not exist in a vacuum. You have fewer bowling balls and can not lob them as quickly as you can the golf balls. You also have fewer chances to make an hit. And if sinking is analogous to death, that isn’t necessary. More like incapacitation, and I’d argue in 9/10 of cases, someone who has just been shot is already psychologically incapacitated regardless of the size of the hole in him.
>A .22 caliber hole in a brain, heart, or major artery makes someone just as dead as a .45 caliber hole in the same place. What exactly do you think you gain by using .45 rather than the smallest gun that will reasonably do the job? Muh expansion? Muh wound cavity? None of that shit even matters if you put rounds into vitals.
clearly by your logic 5.7x28mm is the best pistol cartridge
It's definitely not a bad choice. The only problem is the only 5.7 guns offered right now are all relatively large full-sized pistols or bigger. Once someone makes a decent compact 5.7 I will buy it. My dream gun is one of these in 5.7.
psa is making a smaller 57 thats glock 19 size
I wonder if it will still have the problem of pulling bullets form the case with a bottlenecked cartridge.
Would be sick tbh. A g19 sized 5” 5.7
If you are so confident, then why not pick a smaller round with higher capacity to make more one shot kills with? The fact you choose a bigger caliber compensates for your poor aim because you expect stoppin' powah to do all the work. Meanwhile 17 shots of 9mm means 17 potential bodies per mag, unless I start lining people up
this is pure Black person moron cope because the only reason people choose smaller calibers is for more capacity. I don’t understand how you could willingly post something so ignorant for everyone on the internet to see
>the only reason people choose smaller calibers is for more capacity
And because all handgun cartridges basically perform the same. If a cartridge is small enough to be chambered in an autoloading pistol and has sufficient ass behind it to penetrate light barriers and heavy clothing, it's all basically interchangeable for self defense against humans. Handgun cartridges all just poke little holes in people. What matters is what that hole leads to.
>but muh bigger round means bigger damage
Sure, to soft tissues. A bigger diameter hole will cause more capillary bleeding for sure, but it's not going to make a difference. There are only two ways a handgun bullet will stop an attacker
>1. The psychological impact of being shot
Most times, most people will be immediately dissuaded by virtue of simply becoming injured. The severity of the injury is secondary to the fact that they have been injured by a gun that made a very loud noise and now they have a hole in their body they didn't have seconds before. This can be very distressing
>2. A physically debilitating hit on the CNS or some skeletal structure required to keep an attack going
Sometimes people are just really fricking tough. You shoot them in the gut and they keep coming. Now you have to make them physically stop. This means a hit to the CNS. If you hit someone in an artery or the heart or the head, they will have no choice but to stop because they will be unconscious and then rapidly dead.
It stands to logic that unless the difference between any two cartridges' radii (again, not diameter; radii) is the difference between a hit and a miss, that difference in diameter is immaterial. If you shoot someone you don't care about how hard it is for the doctors to fix them up. You care about stopping them from killing you.
New day, same old cope from the 9fudds
Wrong. I'm saying .45 ACP is bad and 9mm is worse. Put down the 1911 and pick up a .429DE.
Cute
>like .50AE but worse in every way
I have no idea how that cartridge is still around.
>muh bear with .22 short
>muh WDM Bell
You can't shoot like they could. Also, unless you carry a .22 or smaller then you're opinion is worth exactly jack shit.
Your chances of hitting something important scale with the frontal area of the bullet. You are aiming center mass, or head. Not at a moving spine or major blood vessel. More ammo is the cope for poor shot placement (guilty), not wider expansion.
The frontal area of a .45 vs. a 9mm is a mere fraction of a square inch. It is not a significant difference by an sane measure.
Speaking strictly about .45 ACP in the civilian market, it's too expensive. I got into shooting in 2007, and .45 has always been significantly more expensive than 9mm. I still own .45s and shoot them regularly because I reload, but I can see why the average person who buys off-the-shelf ammo would choose a 9mm instead. The last box of factory .45 I purchased was in 2017 and it was 50c/round.
Sometimes a very bad person with foul intent is only partially exposed, sometimes moving as you mentioned, and sometimes the stress of real bullets flying past you is enough to throw your aim. The first person to hit the other probably has an edge the rest of the fight and more ammunition in the magazine is a safety net I'd want if there's a chance I'm going to die.
That being said, when the gen 5 long slide 45 auto comes out I'm rigging it up for 45 super, an optic, light, and an extension to send 15+1 rounds of 230 grain handloads juiced on dead-forumn boomer powder specifications to 1250 fps as a meme carry / wilderness gun / hunting handgun. The idea of a 15 round 44 mag 'duty' type gun is pretty cool.
This is probably the most level-headed capacity argument I've seen, makes sense. Still, in that extremely rare scenario, what you really need is a rifle; and if you're in a scenario where what you really need is a rifle, you were fricked from the start. Different schools of thought, I guess
>15+1 rounds of 230 grain handloads juiced on dead-forumn boomer powder specifications to 1250 fps
I need this
>That being said, when the gen 5 long slide 45 auto comes out I'm rigging it up for 45 super, an optic, light, and an extension to send 15+1 rounds of 230 grain handloads juiced on dead-forumn boomer powder specifications to 1250 fps as a meme carry / wilderness gun / hunting handgun
Absolutely gigabased. I'm going to order some high power springs and do this with my FNX eventually. Not for any practical reason though, it just sounds fun as shit and I really like the DING! sound big heavy bullets make on steel.
>Not for any practical reason though, it just sounds fun as shit and I really like the DING! sound big heavy bullets make on steel.
This is a far more valid argument in favor of .45 than anything else posted ITT.
Outside of special applications like suppressor use I don't really think there is any significant difference between 9mm and .45 is the majority of situations. That being said luv me .45 because the caveman part of my brain tells me that big bullet more better.
> When the gen 5 long slide 45 auto comes out I'm rigging it up for 45 super, an optic, light, and an extension to send 15+1 rounds of 230 grain handloads juiced on dead-forumn boomer powder specifications to 1250 fps as a meme carry / wilderness gun / hunting handgun. The idea of a 15 round 44 mag 'duty' type gun is pretty cool!
What will you be hunting?
> Squirrels! And pine cones!
>230 grain handloads juiced on dead-forumn boomer powder specifications to 1250 fps
200gr XTPs @ 1300 are good for human sized targets, 255gr lead @ 1100 is good for bigger. Start loading supers and you won't have much use for 230gr.
Shot a friends new FN 545 this weekend I was laughing my ass off at the length of the grip even without the extra length 18 rounders
bigger is better
say 2 guns are 9mm and .45. one holds 17 the other holds 8.
.45 has ~30% more muzzle energy than 9mm.
9mm has 200+% higher capacity.
.45 has roughly 4000 ft/lbs muzzle energy per mag
9mm has 5950 ft/lbs/mag
9mm is more powerful than .45.
simple as.
God these caliber wars are so dumb. trauma surgeons cannot tell the difference between 9mm and .45. the difference in "stopping power" is negligible. if you want a big round that actually does have "stopping power" get a 10mm or .44.
But a Glock 21 holds 13, not 8
Double stack 1911s and FN FNX hold 15, so .45 Auto still wins
well my Jericho holds 19 rounds of 9mm.
g21: 6500 ft/lbs/mag
Jericho: 6650ft/lbs/mag
my 9mm is more powerful per mag than a g21. the capacity is worth the negligible difference in lethality.
>9mm holds 17rds and 45 holds 8rds
double stack .45 pistols are a thing
my +20 year old Springfield XD45 holds 13rds of 45acp flush
if I add the 170mm baseplate extension from Springer Precision it can hold 21rds of .45acp
>double stack .45 pistols are a thing
They are much wider and bulkier than 9mm pistols to achieve inferior capacity though.
>muh xD
wow you fit as many rounds in a full size pistol as you can have in a subcompact 9mm. Congratulations.
>if I add the 170mm baseplate extension from Springer Precision it can hold 21rds of .45acp
I cast the 10th level spell "33rd glock magazine" and as a bonus action ready my 50 round pmag drum.
XD.
opinion discarded immediately.
And a single shot 50 BMG mogs everything. it’s a Weird metric to use cause it breaks down in boundary scenarios.
I’m team 9mm btw. Contained energy in the mag is hardly a good argument. There’s number of shots, incapacitation probability, expansion, recoil and speed of follow up shots, size/weight/ease of carrying the gun, etc.
OP there’s 9mm 147 gr (Ranger T) that can expand to .74, but there is also .45 ACP that expands to 1 inch (also Ranger T)
9mm mogged by 45acp yet again
Just googled. That’s very impressive. It looks like a rebranded version of black talons. Does it expand to 1” and stay intact under all conditions or only the most perfect I.e. gel?
Love my .45s
>buying anything from Wilson other than the double stacks
NGMI
>>muh mag size
The irritating thing about this is the fact Para ans Remington made rather decent doublestack (widebody) 1911s in all sorts of form factors (the P12-45 holding 12+1 in an officer sized frame) and everyone just pretends like a doublestack 1911 just simply does not exist. Really fricking hate how the big fad is 2011s, makes it really hard to find info on doublestack 1911s.
>Why exactly did .45 go out of fashion?
Honestly, because its too slow. Watch anyone defend .45 acp and you'll see them bring up .45 super and .450 SMC because without those modernized rounds the .45 is honestly pointless.
Because use was studied and there's no difference in fatal shootings between3 80 and 45.
Doesn't matter how big the hole is if there's enough holes or they're in the right spot.
Statistics are fake and gay. Shootings were not studied and some homosexual just came up with what he wanted the study to say.
9mm is Goldilocks. Big enough to be effective, small enough to have plenty in the magazine, small enough to have high enough velocity while having light enough recoil for accurate enough followup shots.
This. Everything is going to be a trade off between capacity, power, recoil, and whatever else, but going from 9mm to anything else it seems like you tend to lose a little bit more than you gain.
18x0.62=11.16"
13x0.74=9.62"
>???
>profit
6.9 vs 7.1 square inches actually. You gotta square the diameter. 45 wins in this case
Still I pick 9mm
The actual real world performance between 9mm and .45 are negligible so it's better to have more rounds of 9mm.
Pistols are all basically the same and shot placement matters 100x more than "stopping power"
>shot placement matters 100x more than "stopping power"
Which is why you can either practice more and get guud (trad and based) or admit you're a shit shot and compnesate with higher capacity (zoomer mindset)
>implying you somehow can't get good with 9mm
>implying 9mm's lower recoil and significantly cheaper ammo isn't more conducive to getting good
>implying high capacity is somehow a bad thing
I shiggy that diggy my niggy
if you were actually a good shot you wouldn’t pick 9mm. it’s terminal performance is absolutely dwarfed by even standard 45 acp
>it’s terminal performance is absolutely dwarfed by even standard 45 acp
No it isn't lol they're practically identical. .45 costs you capacity for no noticeable increase in effectiveness per shot
I've seen .45 ammunition that gets over 600 lb-ft for muzzle velocity. Can't say the same for 9mm. Maybe they can do just over 500 lb-ft max.
*muzzle energy
>Sacrifice 20%+ of you magazine capacity to get possibly 20% more energy, which will result in a 0% faster incapacitation.
Speed is up to you, but .45 lets you put down someone in fewer shots than 9.
more like only 12% capacity difference because there are guns that carry 16 rounds of .45
>there are guns that hold such and such number of rounds
45 case head / 9mm case head = 1.22. There you go. Comparing double stacks to eachother, 12 9mm’s for every 10 45’s
So get a 12-round mag for .45. Then it's the same.
>$5 is absolutely dwarfed in purchasing power by $6
yes, .308 "only" has around 2800 ft-lb at the muzzle, but you have to realize that there exists a point at which velocity is sufficient such that the water in your body starts acting like concrete. you know how diving into the water from a foot, the water kind of just gives way whereas diving from 500 feet is like hitting concrete? when a round is moving arbitrarily fast with an arbitrarily large amount of mass behind it, you start seeing different effects.
tl;dr: the analogy is that handgun cartridges "dive" into the water in your body from a low height; full-powered rifle cartridges hit your body like belly-flopping from the golden gate bridge.
My 9mm pistol and my 45acp pistol both carry 10 rounds but the 9mm pistol is smaller.
Also it was $410 and I don't give a shit about it so it can slide around under my driver's seat in a cheap kydex owb paddle holster until i decide I need it.
I don't get what's wrong with people choosing 9mm because of capacity? .45 is fine but get one that'll have more than seven. Bare minimum should be 12 rounds.
Because more bullets=more better.
>b-but muh 1/10th of an inch
doesn't fricking matter
>b-but muh energy
doesn't fricking matter
Then why not go with something smaller than 9mm that has less recoil and you can fit more of in a mag like .30sc? Oh right, then stopping power is real again and that round doesn't have it. That's why people find 9mm gays obnoxious, their arguments are always:
if caliber being discussed > .356"
>stopping power isn't real, capacity is the only thing that matters
else
>that round has no stopping power, you need at least 9mm or it will just bounce off your target's skin
The best part is I can tell you all this and you still won't get better arguments.
>Oh right, then stopping power is real again
You are moronic. It's penetration. It's not STOPPAN POWAH. It's the ability of a round to sufficiently penetrate clothing (and rarely barriers) to continue on into the body and poke a little hole that hopefully leads to something that'll physically disable an attacker.
Same shit, different generation. Humans aren't 4 legged animals, we present our vitals pretty readily, you don't need a ton of penetration to reliably hit the important bits. Again, why not 5.7 if penetration is what matters, or .30sc if capacity is what matters? It's because 9gays change "what matters" to whatever benefits 9mm in an argument. I swear to God someone could invent an honest to god scifi laser blaster with infinite ammo and 9gays would still find some reason to say that no one needs anything but 9mm. You are the new fudds. Accept it.
__________________________________________
9mm - because they do make a 10mm, but it hurts my wrists
Two Wars on terror
USPS 2018-2020
Money donated to e-girls to date: $76,541
5.7 is fine, too.
>Again, why not 5.7 if penetration is what matters
>but... but why not just focus exclusively on this one thing if you think it matters so much?
IT ALL FRICKING MATTERS YOU DENSE MOTHERFRICKER. Stop thinking in absolutes. There is a point at which penetration is sufficient the majority of the time for the majority of cases. FBI shooting data suggests this point is somewhere around .380 ACP. Past that, all bullets have the same """"stopping power"""" because they all just poke holes in you. I don't have a horse in your stupid fricking caliber war. 9mm, .45, .40, even fricking .380 are all proven self-defense rounds. You should shoot what you prefer to shoot because it all basically does the exact same shit to the human body. Please stop tilting at windmills.
>It's not STOPPAN POWAH. It's (basically stopping power, but without using the actual phrase).
Name five guns chambered in 30SC, then consider how much ammo you could get for the price difference between a 9 and a 30SC, on top of the delta between their respective ammo costs
>Then why not go with something smaller than 9mm that has less recoil and you can fit more of in a mag like .30sc?
Because there are no good guns chambered for .30sc. Change that and I'll buy it.
>Literally hire humans with higher IQ and physical prowess
That's on the decline globally
Because .45 ACP isn't close to powerful enough for any perceptible difference in performance. Being slightly wider is a very minimal performance gain when both roubds are working with 400-500 ft lbs. Even 10mm and .357 Mag are debatable in their stopping power. You need the stronger .44 Mag loads before you get definite returns on power in a handgun cartridge.
.357 mag is a very proven man stopper, not sure I agree with this. You can get very spicy factory loads like buffalo bore, underwood ammo, etc that produce 800 Ft/lbs out of a revolver.
125 grain hollow point moving 1700 FPS out of a revolver. Thats a man stopper right there.
>125gr XTP at 1700fps
From a 3" it will still do nearly 1600fps. I loaded some to old spec 357 and ran some across the chrono.
If you choose an even softer bullet, then you can get some pretty dramatic effects. A cast hollow point that is around 10-12BHN becomes explosive at those speeds, pic related was a 44 Special bullet only going 900fps. A lightweight .357 cast hp with a huge cavity turns to shrapnel.
>.357 Mag
>debatable in stopping power
This is sn absolutely absurd statement. You've shown how little you actually know
It's a 650 ft lb cartridge on the high end with the typical loads used that earned it the "man stopper" status. .357 from a revolver was practically identical to 9mm+p out of a carbine.
It very likely got Its reputation as a defensive round because it was both the first well penetrating handgun round adopted by police, and the lower capacity necessitated cops actually aiming instead of the current practice of mag dumping.
You can a reliable 800 ft/lbs out of a revolver with hot loads from Underwood, Buffalo bore, etc.
Very few ammo mfgs actually load .357 to its full potential.
https://underwoodammo.com/.357-mag-125gr.-extreme-terminal-performance-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point-hunting-self-defense-ammo/
Sure, but at that point, why not use spicy .44 Mag or even a 9x25 meme machine?
Because its not needed and a lot more expensive. .357 is an incredibly flexible and capable caliber. You can also shoot cheap 38 special as well, far more people own a .357 than a 44 mag. Also a lot more shootable with less recoil.
You can shoot 200 ft/lbs .38 wadcutters up to full power 800 ft/lbs 357 loads. Incredibly capable.
>Sure, but at that point, why not use spicy .44 Mag or even a 9x25 meme machine?
In the case of 9x25 is not a commonly available round. As for .44 a typical six shot 44 is an entirely different animal from a typical 6 shot .357 in terms of power/recoil/weight.
>at that point, why not use spicy .44 Mag or even a 9x25 meme machine?
For the same reason people don't use .45ACP.
45 is an ancient, slow, meme caliber for geriatric boomers. 10mm is everything they claim fawdy five is, lol.
It never went out of fashion, I just picked up a powder springs mac-10 in .45 ACP. And bought 1000 rounds. Full auto .45 ACP goodness.
Up until the Glock 21 came out with its standard 13+1 mags you were really stuck with 1911’s and the 7+1 for the most part, meanwhile 9mm had a shitton of different designs and models to choose from. I love both but just from pure economics it makes sense why 9mm caught on more when they started figuring out how to really take it far.
Guntubers told everyone that 9mm was the end all be all of pistol ammunition
9mm was kang long before youtube
my uneducated opinion is that 9mm is the perfect jack of all trades pistol round. Just fast enough, just big enough, takes hollow points just well enough, recoils just light enough and has good enough capacity in magazines. which is why it has become such a staple. its not the best but it hits the perfect balance.
>9?
hell yeah
>45?
hell yeah
>10?
hell yeah
>380
hell yeah
>22?
hell yeah
>38?
hell yeah
I'll always pack a 45 over a 9
9s are safe, 45s are better for junkies.
The amount of reductionist takes in this thread is honestly sad. None you tards even mentioned the fact 45 is subsonic. None of you refuse to concede the wound cavity is larger. It's just arrogance and sunken cost operators who are too neofudd to expand beyond what their minmaxtuber told em to like.
>Enjoyer of all calibers 45 and 9 included
>None of you refuse to concede the wound cavity is larger
"""""wound cavity""""" is completely irrelevant. with handgun rounds, you're just poking holes in people. a wound cavity only matters if you're counting capillary bleeding through flesh, which you really shouldn't because it's also (you guessed it) irrelevant. shot placement is king, and penetration is its queen. you're a moron. did you get YOUR opinions from a israelitetuber?
>"""""wound cavity""""" is completely irrelevant
Would love to know who convinced the 9fudds of this moronic nonsense
explain to me exactly how a larger hole will stop an attacker more quickly. please, the floor is yours. because it seems like anything that's going to debilitate an assailant quickly enough to matter going to debilitate them regardless of which round you shoot them with. an artery is going to bleed at basically the same rate. getting shot in the heart is going to kill you regardless of how big the bullet is. the brain is remarkably sensitive to being penetrated by anything. so, please, tell me how a marginally higher rate of capillary bleeding is going to magically stop someone faster.
I've shot deer with .223 and with .308; the deer i shot with .308 all hit the ground a lot faster and I'm gonna say the larger holes in the internals from the greater expansion had a lot to do with it. Next season I'll use a 9mm and a .45 on whitetail and make a thread about it just to spite you ( both are legal in my state)
>I've shot deer with .223 and with .308; the deer i shot with .308 all hit the ground a lot faster and I'm gonna say the larger holes in the internals from the greater expansion had a lot to do with it
i'm not talking about rifle rounds. there are different mechanisms at work with very large bullets going very, very fast. none of these mechanisms are at play with handgun cartridges. they don't have enough ass to behave like full-powered rifle rounds. to boot, .223 and .308 are already rounds that behave so much differently from each other. the differences in bullet weight and powder charge are much greater than those in handgun rounds.
so basically, you have no argument or explanation at all except BIGGER HOLE IS MORE BETTER JUS LOOK AT DA PIC. feel free to directly respond to any of the points i made at any point in any of my posts if you want to actually learn something instead of engaging in moronic carrtidge wars.
I need only refer to pic related in
to explain to you how
Express the diameter of 9mm and .45 (expanded or not) as a ratio to the torso surface area of an adult male and tell me the difference matters.
I know there’s been a few people who asked coraners about it and they said, apart from .22 they can’t tell what handgun caliber made the wound, they’re all pretty much the same.
>45 is subsonic
so is 147 grain 9mm
Yeah, but it really sucks in that weight
>9s are safe, 45s are better for junkies
heres the power of 9 against a fat homeless junkie
?t=512
From what I know probably pistol size (semi autos rely on the handgun's grip/magwell to store cartridges, revolvers size of cylinder), cost, recoil, evolution of hollow points (yes 45 expands to a larger size but 9mm and others do so more reliably since they tend to fly faster esp. out of shorter barrels and also expand to a respectful degree), and other miscellaneous logistical factors (storage space adds up, amount of lead, weight, etc.) In my opinion the king of pistol rounds are the magnum revolver rounds, particularly 357 magnum. The only thing holding it back and the platform in general is capacity and reload time. probably the only round more versatile than 357 is 44 magnum, but it gets outshined by the 357 for the same reason 9mm surpasses 45 in popularity (cost, recoil, less capacity, size of guns, etc) Magnum 357 ammo pretty much ensures hollow point expansion out of even the shortest barrels, in carbines can reach 2000+ fps, can be used to hunt small game to black bear defense to self defense against humans without modifying the gun in any way, does more damage (f=ma, the round simply penetrates better, more, and more reliably against all barriers vs 9mm and 45), is still small enough to fit in a j frame, and is not too overpriced. As for bullet size mattering, it does not. Bullet velocity, construction/shape, and weight truly matter. its the reason why hunters tailor their bullets to their game of choice. Gunfighters of the 20th century like jim cirillo claim to have had round nose ammunition glance off of skulls due to shape, and even the CNS shot argument fails thanks to the fact that both barrier penetration and penetration of the human body (especially at odd angles) can be objectively measured as superior in more powerful rounds.
To clarify, by more damage I meant is more likely to reach a vital area through barriers (357 magnum helped police penetrate car doors in the early days), when it does penetrate people it goes further, and especially against non human targets it is superior for this reason. CNS shots still matter. I think it was in the maimi dade shooting where a 9mm hollowpoint failed to reach one of the targets heart due to the fact that the bullet entered through the side of the torso and not the front, therefore needing to travel further. Had he been using a 357 magnum swc or flat point he would have punched a hole from one side, through his heart, and out the other, leaving fragments of lead throughout the wound.
When?
Easy question, when the wonder 9s hit the market.
>double stack 9mm, double the capacity
>better penetration Potential
>vastly superior against light body armour which previously didn't exist.
So one cop in body armour with a browning HP would be at such an advantage that they could charge in blasting and kill everyone outright. A precedent which continues to this day
Idiot take you're not worth the time except to mock.
Only a moron argues again mag size when the rounds are effectively the same. 9mm is cheaper to produce, carries more rounds, can be fired out of a lighter gun, and in the real world has the same effectiveness as a. 45
You will never be a real autoloader round. You have thin web, you have thin wall, you have no support for high pressures. You are a .45 Schofield twisted by fudds and Colt tooling into a crude mockery of Browning’s perfection.
All the “validation” you get is an absurd 1904 trial done by senile people. Behind your back people mock you. John Browning is disgusted and ashamed of you, your “friends” laugh at your recoil and pathetic muzzle velocities behind closed doors.
Men are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed men to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even hollow points who “pass” look slow and pathetic to a man. Your case structure is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy shoot you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a sight of your bullet drop.
You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake ballistics every single shot and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.
Eventually it’ll be too much to bear for the owner – he will fill inside with all the gunpowder, put you in his 100 year old 1911 and pull the trigger. And then that will end the miserable life of yours along the gun you have ruinned. You will be melted to make cases for .40 S&W and all that will remain of your legacy will be the unnecessary suffering you brought to cows.
This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.
for a better question is why did .40 S&W go out of fashion, it was a good compromise between 9mm and .45
>why did .40 S&W go out of fashion?
Its not out of fashion. If you go to the inner cities, it sells better than .45 acp because minorities seem to love the round. Sure, police officers and federal agents are returning to 9mm, but .40 isn't dying.
It was worse than 9mm and cost more. The only plus was cheap police trade ins and the hope you could do a barrel swap to something at least interesting.
>civilian
fewer guns being made in it, less popular with professionals, higher cost than 9mm, less fanatic fans than .45, its still a decently popular round though
>professionals
The intersection of more data driven round selection, better 9mm loads, and many .40 S&W firearms being problematic when issued on the institutional level. Some people who cant shoot .40 adequately can shoot 9mm adequately. People who shoot .40 adequately shoot better with 9mm. Hit rates with handguns are atrocious in gunfights, and fewer candidates getting disqualified for failing shooting tests means more warm bodies. At this point ballistically the only edge .40 has over 9mm is SLIGHTLY better barrier performance with meaningful drawbacks to weigh that against. .40 S&W wears out guns faster and many firearms(particularly glock) suffer a surprisingly high lemon rate in .40 S&W compared to 9mm. The latter was actually one of the bigger reasons a lot of .40 S&W hold outs switched back to 9mm.
.40 is a decent caliber but were just at the point where 9mm makes more sense for 99.99% of people
A lot of guys (girls is what I call them) carry 9mm. I say no to that because I pee standing up, not when I'm sitting down. That's why I carry .45 despite most girls carrying 9mm nowadays.
>Why exactly did .45 go out of fashion?
in a defensive shooting, you're trying to incapacitate your attacker.
this can be achieved either by killing the attacker outright, disabling his ability to attack, or removing his willingness to attack.
in the worst case scenario, where no amount of damage will remove the attackers willingness to attack (see Black folk on pcp), you're left with the other 2 options only.
so, how does one kill, immediately?
and how does one remove the ability to attack, immediately?
well, headshots, other CNS hits eg spine, shooting arms/hands so they're not working anymore (not advisable as they're hard to hit), shooting major organs like lungs or heart.
or, causing enough lesser wounds, each of which would be individually inadequate, such that cumulatively they are enough to bring about unconsciousness or loss of function.
so, its all about shot placement. or, more realistically, since you probably won't be able to aim very accurately when under attack, shot number.
in other words, you ideally want a gun you can fire accurately, in quick succession, and has many boolitz.
i know is a meme, but a full mag dump while aiming at center mass is not a bad strategy in a defensive scenario.
throw enough bullters towards center mass, the chances you hit something important enough to immediately stop the attack are preddy gud. or at least better than any other strategy.
so, yea, that's why .45 lost. a 9 has less recoil, meaning you can fire faster, and all else being equal, more capacity, meaning you can fire more boolitz. so its betterer.
and not just vs a .45, but vs anything until you reach shotties/rifles.
>inb4 but then why not carry a .380? or a 22LR?
380 is probably also viable, at least high end loadings.
22lr and 32 would probably fail to penetrate deep enough to be equally effective.
but in any case, 9mm has other advantages too, like ammo price and the widest selection of guns to choose from, which make it desirable
>32 would probably fail to penetrate deep enough
not with FMJ, IIRC .32 FMJ is perfectly inside the FBI’s gay little requirements
For .380 you are stuck with boutique stuff like Hornady CD and the screwdriver rounds, since FMJ overpens.
in that case, 32 is theoretically a valid self defense option too.
know of any full size .32s with like 30 round mags? would be interesting
>know of any full size .32s with like 30 round mags?
no, because we live in the worst timeline
You have to have brain damage to think that 9mm is better than 45acp. I've read so many cases where the survivor was shot with 9mm. Rarely has the same occured with 45acp. 45 kills way more often than 9mm. If you want your attacker to sue you in court, go ahead and shoot them with 9mm. If you want them dead use 45acp
there's this thing called "statistics" anon
we have them. we have data from SHITLOADs of shootings.
and guess what, the data doesn't support your claims.
in order to see a big increase in lethality per bullet, you need to go up to rifles or shotguns.
you wanna kill the guy you are shooting? dumping 15 or 20 9mm into him is more likely to achieve it than 10 or 12 .45s. especially since you'll be able to aim better and hit more with the 9.
Complete bullshit, good luck telling a judge you were defending your life when you have to shoot 15 times at someone with 9mm just to drop them when compared to one or 2 hits with 45acp.
What bullshit you're pulling out your ass is shit. If 9mm is so effective then why was it the only effective caliber for cocaine abusing Indians that can stop them in their tracks compared to 9mm?
hydrostatic shok negligible between everything pistol wise, something something first round incapacitation, blahblahblah
it drops like 10 feet at 100 meters, beyond point blank range you need to aim so high above your target that you can not longer see him
9mm has a very major advantage and that is its popularity. So it's plentiful, cheap, there are many guns that use 9mm and lots of R&D goes into the ammo.
It's very difficult to compete with that.
homie do you know how many 1911s alone are in existence? There's like 6 million of them if you count clones/licensed designs.
Let's not larp like 45 is going the way of the kiwi bird.
9mm was taken up solely due to an economical supply chain reasoning.
Honestly I think the 45 slander comes from anti-american sentiment. It's funny how every 9gay ducks when you show them the swathes of mag dumps required to apprehend a suspect. Meanwhile we seen 45 work magic in Korea, Vietnam, the world wars of course, and even in Special forces with custom 1911s and mk23s
Not only does .45 have the most reported 1 shot stop defense cases (next to .380 oddly enough), the fricking cow test, and 2 world warz, there's also literal 100 hundred years of bullet development. You have sub sonic properties for a big projectile.
There IS a difference in wound cavity and damage inflicted on a human body. Here's identical glocks with the most realistic torso test you're gonna get ran on super slowmo cameras and similar preforming loads of their respective calibers.
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>inb4 Temporary cavity don't do nuffin
Wrong. You cannot expand a human body without consequence despite rubberistic properties of flesh.
45 or 9 depends on a shooters physique too. If their hands are too small for an fnx or mk23 then obviously go with a 9mm pistols but if you can handle it then 45 really is the way to go if you want to be assured that you can lay a crackhead flat. Capacity doesn't matter if it's all about shot placement anyway. 45 also doesn't over penitrate so if you got loved ones in the next room over or in a public space then 45 has perks.
>the fricking cow test
you mean Thompson-LaGarde? have you read the results?
Assault weapons ban sunsetting allowing more than ten rounds in a magazine. You whippersnappers may not remember but a lot of handgun trends arose because of the ten round limit. Smaller and smaller auto pistols were one result. Why carry a full size if limited to ten? Conversly, why carry a full size in 9mm if limited to ten? Why not go with a .45? 1911's were always popular but the ten round limit gave new life to the platform. Now, with no 10 round limit, people tend to prefer capacity over caliber for their larger guns, at least when it comes to 9mm vs .45. Bullet technology has also improved a lot in recent decades closing the gap in performance between .45 and 9mm. I still like .45 because of low pressure, decibels, and the energy you can deliver with higher mass but at a slower speed, but that's just me. Today, one has many valid reasons to choose 9mm over .45.