It is inferior to other intermediate cartridges in any objective measurements.
Why haven't some arabic and african shitholes switch to 5.45 or 5.56 in last 50 years? Why are Russians still making and using 7.62x39 guns? Why haven't it became a niche object of worship along with other obsolete stuff like 7.92x33 kurz or .45 acp?
Frick ya mudda
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOO STOP USING THAT INFERIOR ROUND MY SUPERIOR ROUNDS CAN'T BLAST THROUGH LIGHT COVER YOUR ROUND IS OBSOLETE STOP SHOOTING ME THROUGH BRICK WALLS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
7.62x39mm does a few things well: 1. Poke holes in light cover, 2. Poke holes in soft targets, 3. Lots of surplus AK's and RPK/RPD's use it, not to mention the SKS and some modern bolt actions like Howas, 4. Cheap as shit.
>Why are Russians still making and using 7.62x39 guns
Because it shits all over 5.56 in performance you dumb frick?
>45 acp
>Obsolete
Get the frick out tourist.
>Because it shits all over 5.56 in performance you dumb frick?
Lighter, faster round with a flatter trajectory > fatter, slower round with tons of drop.
5.56 55gr out of a 20" barrel i more than enough for any man sized target.
Useless against neer peers in body armor that use cover. .308 has more punch and 7.62x39 may at least get a lucky overpen on cover shot that wounds someone.
There's too much of depending on luck when it goes to 7.62x39. It may or may not hit the target at 300m and it may or may not penetrate cover etc.
5.45 and 5.56 are tools of professionals - they go straight and are meant to hit human targets incapaciting them.
Let me guess, you learned this from video games and movies? All the AKs I own are 2 MOA guns using shitty metal cased bulk ammo, probably even better with quality hunting rounds. For the sake of the argument though, I'll give you 3 MOA.
3 MOA at 300 yards would be a 9 inch circle. You can almost certainly hit a man's head at that distance with an AK, and DEFINITELY the body. There's plenty of videos of people on YouTube taking AKs out to 500 yards without problems.
The m855a1 program puts that to rest. 5.56 is purely better in terms of logistics and range capability.
Although the new weapons program utilizing that frankenstein half brass, half steel casing to achieve astronomical case pressures and FPS on a 6.8x51 round is fricking insane and, provided it's not a logistical nightmare to produce them by the shipping container loads required, puts any kind of 5.56 vs 7.62 question to rest.
Thats the actual answer, 5.56 vs 7.62x39 is like comparing bp calibers when smokeless just came out.
>Both 5.56 and 7.62x39 are obsolete anyways. We're moving over to better calibers.
Lol, can you guys shut the frick up about ''muh new super-dooper 6.8×51mm cartridge''? It's not a fricking game changer by any margin, and does not replace shit. It's going to take years, to produce it in reliable amounts. it's not going to make 5.56 obsolete, just like 5,7 × 28 is not going to make 9mm obsolete.
Both 5.7 and 6.8 are meme cartridges, and only morons praise them. 9mm and 5.56 are not going anywhere, and we are not having a fricking revolution in fire arms design.
Bro civilians used muskets long after rifled cartridge guns came out because they are cheap and muskets still killed deer. It depends on the context.
Black person, there's been better rounds than 5.56 and 7.62 for DECADES already LOL. I'll agree that if you get the "best of the best" of those two rounds, 5.56 is the best. But for realistic ammo people have laying around in larger numbers, 55g fmj and 124g fmj are different enough that they both have their pros and cons.
Oh for sure there's objectively better rounds.
But buck for buck, overall capability and logistics wise 855a1 fricking slaps and will defeat level 4 plates on the regular, depending on how much redundancies they build in, ceramic strike face etc.
The NGSW round in development though is fricking insane. It's like throwing a hot hand loaded .243 out of the most robust unbreakable bolt action you have and then doing that 29 more times in 10 seconds.
That means they're getting ready for a big conventional war where people will be shooting at each other from longer distances with more peer to peer nations.
>Because it shits all over 5.56 in performance
Obviously not. It's like .45 acp vs 9mm parabellum - 9mm objectivelly does everything better, but there are still morons who are aroused by fat, slow, heavy bullet for some reason.
Wrong idiot. 5.56 gets it's wounding capability due to it's light weight and high speed nature. Which enabled it to fragment reliably. This worked best with the m16 family with the 20 inch barrel using 55g and even the m855. However nowadays people use shorter barrels, in some cases literally HALF of the M16s barrel.
This literally lead people to create 300 Blackout to get better performance from shorter barrels, which is basically 7.62x39, they even share the same BDC reticles. And all that being said, 7.62x39 doesn't fragment reliably, but for that very same reason it's very good at punching through light cover and retaining it's mass to ensure deep enough penetration to the target.
Both 5.56 and 7.62x39 are obsolete anyways. We're moving over to better calibers.
>This literally lead people to create 300 Blackout to get better performance from shorter barrels, which is basically 7.62x39
Ok, you lost me there.
>Let me guess, you learned this from video games and movies?
Nope. From my friend who were serving 2 years of his obligatory military service with rifle in 7.62x39. All his shooting advices and tips were ridiculous and just didn't applied to more modern rifles in NATO's cartridges. Basically for 2 years they were teached to go around 7.62x39 trajectory instead of just learning to shoot and go from there to more advanced stuff.
>Muh friend who's a dumb infantryman in the military says so!!!
Okay, and yet I, and plenty of other people you can easily find on YouTube take the AK out to 500 yards with no problem. And since we're using appeal to authority, since I actually was in the military, then I automatically win this conversation.
>yet I, and plenty of other people you can easily find on YouTube take the AK out to 500 yards with no problem
There are people on youtube who make chinese pulled noodles like it's just stretch of the arms.
Sure you can learn that with time. Or you can use superior tool that won't leave you with disadvantage, so you can use that time improving more useful skills.
This. Judging weapons using people is really difficult because you can train people to use weapons you find awkward to shoot and become very precise and naturalized with them. Alternatively a guy who can't hit the broadside of a barn could pick up an M4 and still continue to not hit shit. In the modern age of firearms where everything has been hyper-optimized, the shooter's skill is far more predictive of results than the firearm
Uhmm...no? 45 ACP shits all over 9mm, and it's a fact.
Nope. 9mm goes faster, farther and deeper. It even kills better according to multiple studies. Eventually, not even US military could resist superior pistol cartridge. Same with FBI:
https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/accessories/ammunition/articles/why-bullet-size-matters-in-officer-involved-shootings-Ff0sxVITdSX8iAn7/
It's just that ridiculous fetish of fat, slow bullet that speaks through you.
Nope, 45 apc has superior stoping power and is more lethal you moron.
You guys should just frick.
>t. Old man .40 s&w shooter
Empirical, theoretical and statistical studies all are saying otherwise. It's literally not true. I know morons like yourself don't believe scientific methods, so here's something for you: try hitting yourself with a hammer and then with screwdriver - see what hurts more.
Actual shooting data puts 9, .45, and .40 equal in effectiveness so it just comes down to other factors to compare the three like cost and shootability.
I remember reading some police stats saying that 9mm incapacites/kills people by one shot in 45 times out of 100, while apc does that in 44 times out of 100. It's rather small difference and it goes in favor of 9mm - however myth of "superior stopping power" is the only selling poing of .45 over 9mm and it's not true.
By all other, objective metrics 9mm is superior.
Military prefers 9mm iirc so they seem to think it is slightly better
Police just don't want shit flying through peoples' walls.
>Police just don't want shit flying through peoples' walls.
9mm has better penetration - maybe that's why American Police sticked to fat bullets for longer?
That was exactly what I was saying. Modern .45 and 9mm have the same killing capability, but it won't hit collateral easily, like hostages.
Same reason SWAT-types in different countries in europe really like submachine guns and machine pistols over shotguns…less spraying innocents with pellets and more laser-ish targeting
>Because it shits all over 5.56 in performance you dumb frick?
Lmao, imagine thinking that.
>Why does 7.62x39 still exist?
Because there is a lot of it. Next question.
A well designed .22 caliber bullet can penetrate things that 7.62x39 can't. I think the Chinese have the right idea with modern 5.8mm designs.
It's a round that gives guns an incredibly long barrel life. It's almost twice the barrel life of a 5.56, and the truth is these guns get shot A LOT by the third worlders. Those AKs go through generations of third worlder hands, so barrel life is important.
Also these rifles aren't used to plink at men from 300 yards away (even though a good shooter technically can reach out to 500 yards with 7.62x39), these rifles are primarily used in towns, villages, cities, in rather close distances, as a round known for punching through cover while still remaining intact and having enough energey to still eliminate a threat. While standard 5.56 just breaks apart due to it's speed, and doesn't have the mass to punch through cover as well. The AK and the 7.62x39 round both lend themselves real well to third worlders killing each other in close quarters.
7,62x39 soft point for deer and maybe HD, surplus bulk for backyard plinking. For anything else including warring, theres 5.56.
There's lots of 7.62x39 available, so gun manufacturers make guns that can use it. Since there's all these guns in circulation, ammunition manufacturers keep making more 7.62x39 to shoot out of them, and so the cycle continues.
Are there better cartridges available? Sure, but making the switch (at least from the perspective of a military or similar large purchaser) means having to replace your existing stock of weapons and ammunition, either rendering your existing stocks useless, or burdening your logistics with two different types of ammunition/rifles to provide/maintain as you phase the old ones out.
theres a lot of it around, so a lot of people keep guns for it, so theres a good market for it
feedback loop
Supreme round for SBR and suppressor use. 300 blk doesn't exist outside of the US civilian market in any meaningful capacity to replace 7.62x39. For urban warfare there isn't a mainstream infantry round that beats it
Money. Some militaries dont find it worth switching caliber, so they keep using 7.62, which means 7.62x39 stays available for civillians as well
7.62 is shit on by 300blk. But can you tell me where exactly the stockpiles of millions of 300blk rifles are located?
Also intermediate cal 30 cartridges are very good at medium rangers, and shit all over the smaller .22 caliber ~~*modern*~~ rifles. Only time .22 is superior is in longer range engagement, and when weak twink gays are using the gun.
300 blk is a logistical nightmare which cancels out any benefits it would have with subsonics. Theres a reason why most US military forces just shoot 5.56 out of shorter ARs.
I think the logistics is quite the plus: you have the ability to turn conscript 556 rifles into hand grenades with just a mag change.
Because it’s cheap as frick and there’s a shit ton of cheap ak’s. When given the chance to switch to 5.45 or 5.56 with ample supply of Ak7Taliban, SDF, etc)
It's a great low pressure round that performs very well in sbr's and it packs a mean punch, also it's the most common round there is, simple as
If it's brettygud for my countrymen, then it's brettygud for me :DDDD
I think Finland unilaterally disproves the fuddlore around 7.62x39 accuracy.
With the massive asterisk of finnish autism ammunition and the RKs being 1.5moa rifles to start with.
I've used lapua out of my norinco and it absolutely shrunk my groups compared to baranul, but lapua 7.62x39 is pricey shit.
True, Galil Aces in 5.56 are AR accurate. Its just Russian exceptionalism at it again.
It irritates the shit out of me how unobtanium semiauto RK62Ms are in the US.
I would let my LGS absolutely defile my wallet for one.
>RK62Ms
No shit those are unobtanium, considering they're the Finnish army's old rk62's with new stocks and handguards. New RK's havent been manufactured in 20 years, and those were RK95's
It's a genuine shame, I just want an old school 62 but
>eleventy gorrillion dollars plus tip lmao
I never understood why the Finns still use that shit. Does it punch through woodland cover better? Or are they just weirdos?
see
It just works
x39 just does well in brush: big boolet just goes through branches and trees. Also the case is heavily tapered, which improves extraction especially in cold environments which Finland most certainly is.
Their doctorine used to be use whatever cartridge Russia uses, so I'm surprised they never jumped on the 5.45 band wagon, especially since the design effort of chambering a 5.56 gun to it is minimal.
Until you get to .308 7.62x39 is the only round that makes 99% of trees not viable cover
Because the autistic ballistics wankery over 5.56 vs 7.62x39 is just that, autistic ballistics wankery. A fricking infantryman isn't going to be taking shots at ranges where the trajectory of the bullets matters in the fricking slightest.
This. 7.62x39, ak's and their derivatives will be continued to be used for a very long time still
Didn't the Soviet Union produce so much they don't know what to do with it? I always figured it was produced in tremendous amounts and a reliable and popular platform uses it so there's no reason to stop.
This has such an easy solution. For short ranges 7.62 (for fully-automatics) would be more advantageous, for longer range warfare you would want something like a 5.56. Of course, at that point of pinpoint-style shooting you might want to switch to a high caliber semi-rifle which is what the US thought about when coming up with the M14 clearly
You are not going to want to be holding onto that BAR when a german soldier comes out of an alleyway with an MP38, hence the invention of the pistol-caliber "submachine guns" to fill that specific role.
Every gun is meant for a role, not to be an "okay at all trades."
>it just works
>super low pressure so guns chambered in it pretty much never wear their bores out
>punches through thick brush very easily
>fun to shoot
>rifles chambered in it are sexy
>causes gamer homosexuals to seethe over larping differences
At practical distances it is as viable as any other intermediate cartridge.
Because 7,62x39 exists everywhere. When you have so many 3rd world countries that got their AKs somewhere before the fall of the soviet union, guess what? They're never replacing them because it costs too much. There are simply so many AK pattern rifles that even if they shot musket balls, some country looking to get their army any functional rifle would still buy them by the crate. 7,62x39 works, and it's shot from AKs. That's all that basic militaries need.
who there my guy. im thinking about getting a mini30 are you trying to tell me im not gonna have fun or what?
No intermediate round is enough better than 7.62x39 to actually justify switching to it unless they have the money to do so.
China does. Vietnam doesn't. If those two countries come to blows...again, it will be determined by numbers and grand strategy, not small arms bore size.
To be honest I wish 6.5 grendel was more popular because it does 80-90% of .308's job and then we could totally ignore 556 and x39. Hell I think Serbia is making it their service cartridge.