What ever happened to soldiers being maneuverable. I see soldiers wearing over 100 pounds of gear sometimes. Is it because of muh milspec gear being heavier, soldiers being required to carry redundant shit they don’t need? Or a combination of the two? I see many decades ago soldiers had a decent light load, where/when did it all go wrong bros? What ever happened to the 1/4 or even 1/3 body weight guideline? I guess with American soldiers 100 pounds is still within that :DDDD
Even my full “battle rattle” AND my “very long term” sustainment load have a combined base weight in the 35-40 pound range, roughly 45 pounds with food and water, and that’s including not even me trying to shave any weight at all. With literally all my shit on, I can get around 1/4 of my body weight. If I throw on body armor I can make it heavier, but it still comes nowhere close to what I am talking about.
From a lightweight backpackers perspective it all seems insane. My minimalist backpacking kit has a base weight of about 12 pounds, and roughly 20 once you add water and food into it. And I could find even lighter products if I really wanted to. Many consider it “ultralight” but I only consider base weights under 10 lbs to be truly ultralight.
don't worry, i've got the cheat code
>Galileo
Why?
homie just eat those stupid plants or steak
Mostly ammunition and weapons. Back in the civil war you had a rifle and would probably carry like MAYBE 100 rounds, plus your bedroll, canteens, etc. Now, they carry all the same shit except they have to carry like 150 rounds, plus grenades, plus an AT weapon, and they're wearing body armor..let alone if you're a machine gunner. usually the farther afield you're going to be on patrol, the more shit you need to carry. A LRRP's loadout in Vietnam would be much heavier than a typical infantry loadout, up to maybe 130 lbs. despite them being ostensibly more "mobile", simply because they had to be prepared for every contingency that they might encounter BECAUSE of that mobility and their distance from support
Indeed the loadout of a modern soldier often includes stuff that simply didn't exist or was back in the wagon train.
This
Basically light infantry power creep. But hopefully your military will be highly mechanized and the distances you'd have to go on foot would much shorter compared times past. At least that's the ideal situation.
As a former light infantryman, that's basically the rub. LI can't be sustainable AND tactically maneuverable at the same time. You get one or the other.
Personally I believe all infantry should be motorized in some way, whether that be ATVs or whatever. And in the case of a near/peer conflict, we should get used to fighting uncomfortably lean.
don't you at least get Humvees or equivalent? trucks?
IIRC we had two LMTVs and a handful of humvees for 2 scout platoons, a HQ platoon w/sniper and a mortar platoon.
They need to break up the infantry into actually light infantry, with tiny ww2 sized packs and then heavy infantry made of bigger dudes
No, leadership just needs to stop over mandating equipment loads and to treat Ranger school as an actual tactical leadership course rather than a checkbox to a career.
It's basic infantry craft that's unfortunately lost today. You scale your load based on the task. Large heavy sustainment loads on maneuver, then consolidation and downgrading of carried weight to the bare minimum when preparing for operations. And at the end of the day, PT is paramount. Infantry kit has never and will never be light, so better preparing men to handle the rigor of carrying it is vital
no
they did. both Civil War soldiers and Roman soldiers carried comparable amounts of weight that included armor+kit, bedroll, fortifivation tools and etc- between 60-80lbs, this was true for more or less all major western armies. baggage trains carried food, artillery and ammo/heavy equipment
>body armor
that's the answer in a nutshell
Gear creep and excess armor have put even the fighting load (after you drop all your kit) for US soldiers well over the Army theoretical maximum of 50lbs, while approach loads are ridiculous. pic related
The short answer as to why is that deaths are horrible PR today, far more than they ever were since we lose so few solciers in combat, and COs would rather load their unit up on survivability at the expense of sky-high long-term and non-combat injuries from carrying too much shit all the time.
blown out knee==no bad PR, dumb soldier
dead soldier==bad PR, lousy CO
This is a generally excellent analysis of the problem, and it won't go away until compromised unit performance causes strategic losses in the field which hasn't happened in modern times
https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1
>Even my full “battle rattle” AND my “very long term” sustainment load have a combined base weight in the 35-40 pound range, roughly 45 pounds with food and water, and that’s including not even me trying to shave any weight at all. With literally all my shit on, I can get around 1/4 of my body weight. If I throw on body armor I can make it heavier, but it still comes nowhere close to what I am talking about.
ok so 45lbs.
+20 for body armor, 65lbs
+15 for M4 & ammo; 80lbs
20lbs to get you to a hundred and you've not taken any specialist equipment - someone needs the drone, maybe you need NVGs, someone is holding spare batteries, someone is holding mortar rounds or ammo for the M249, someone has extra medkit supplies, etc etc.
The ammo is included in the 45 pounds
For both sidearm and rifle
Oh yeah and my nvg setup on my helmet, ifak, etc etc
When I said full battle rattle I meant it, literally everything but body armor since I mostly wear a chest rig but I do have one that weighs in at around 15 pounds with level 4 plates, it’s slick and I throw it on under the rig
You are at 45lb including not just your regular load but helmet, NVG, rifle and ammo? Bullshit.
fair enough - and how long is your kit meant to last? like 5lbs for food & water would imply a day max? does your 25lbs (assuming 40 - 15 and that the NVGs are lighter than air) include shelter, tarp, sleeping bag, mat, spare clothes, cooking equipment, wash gear, knife, axe, something to dig etc?
I guess my point is that a soldiers overloaded knees are carrying enough for several days minimum, redundancy, spares and likely unneeded stuff for the 'what if'.
>and how long is your kit meant to last
Long term as in long term, I could extend it as long as I can find food, I have gone for several weeks only resupplying with food or just finding it on my own to an extent
>spare clothes
You only need 2 socks, 3 max if you live in a very wet area, you don’t need to have very many spare clothes at all, you are going to be sweaty and nasty anyway after only a few days or even just a day
>digging
You don’t really need to dig, fixed fortifications are stupid, but if you want a Dakota fire hole or something a small trowel is better and lighter than an E tool
>mat, shelter
If you live in a hot area you don’t need one, get a hammock and you don’t need to worry about a tarp or mat. I live in a hot climates half the year and a cold as frick climate half the year so I sometimes will need to pack heavier with the mats and shelters but it is only a few pounds more TOTAL.
>cooking equipment
Short term you can have a butane stove or alcohol stove which is pretty light, but long term all you want is a pot, if you aren’t going to be resupplied anything else is dead weight. Butane canisters do not grow in the wild.
>axe
Nice to have but you don’t NEED one
>knife
Yes, but you don’t need multiple redundancies and “combat” knives you won’t use, you need one as a tool and no more, you aren’t ninja enough to get that close
With respect, it sounds like you're comparing a light load out suitable for circumstances conducive to a light load out with worst case scenario planning / the apparently regular need faced by militaries to put a group of men in a cold place without fresh water. Also your own personal preference with regards hygiene, and not, again, risk reduction across tens of thousands of people some of whom will get tick borne diseases, typhus, the shits, etc.
I will agree with you that I am packing for my own region/possible scenarios while the military packs for different ones, but I still argue they are too heavy even for “worst case scenarios”, they might even make such scenarios even worse because they are overchmbered and cannot run or have to drop their pack
I also understand the point of needing hygiene in groups, I am just in small groups or alone so yes I will also admit there would be a difference there
>have gone for several weeks
>you only need 2 socks
i disagree
Your simply just wrong
One pair on your feet, one pair in your pack or drying out on the back of your pack as you walk
>drying out on the back of your pack as you walk
good luck with that in the tropics or a muddy battlefield
>You don’t really need to dig
A simple scrape is fricking essential to soldiering, and soldiers need to retain the ability to build foxholes and sangars
>get a hammock and you don’t need to worry about a tarp
good luck when it rains
>long term all you want is a pot
you don't have time to gather firewood, a lightweight stove is important
>roughly 20 once you add water and food
a 24hr MRE weighs about 2lbs, you should be carrying two; water for 2 days is at least 4L or about 9lbs, in practice combat makes you sweat A LOT so that's actually only 1 day's worth
I wonder how much water you consume on a hike, I find personally 4L/day is frankly normal, I can easily imagine combat taking even more; I believe ~5L a day is standard with each soldier usually carrying 2 days' worth
>I can get around 1/4 of my body weight
the reference NATO soldier is 80kg
1/4 is 20kg; in my experience I can tell you that normal living equipment plus boots, maps, IFAK, tent, rations and water will weigh about that much
however one can argue that only about 6kg of that is absolutely necessary for fighting order (emergency food, water, IFAK, boots)
so 6kg fighting order, 14kg ruck
>now for soldier stuff
M4 carbine 3kg (if you're lucky not to be the machine-gunner)
180 rounds 5.56mm 3kg
extra rounds for squad MG 3kg (assuming 5.56 and not 7.62)
M203 grenade launcher 1kg
4 grenades 1kg (minimum)
helmet and basic body armour, 8kg
personal radio + batteries, 1kg
so 26kg fighting order, 14kg ruck, total 40kg
this is already hitting the 50% mark
>additional
Hooligan tool 6kg [fighting order]
AT4 7kg or/and Claymore 3kg [fighting order]
GPS ? [fighting order]
NVG ? [fighting order]
mortar round 2kg [ruck]
EPW handcuffs ? [ruck]
and this pushes us into the 100lb weight territory
now consider the squad machine-gunner and the platoon ATGM guy...
>good luck with that in the tropics
I live in the tropics during the rainy season
>a simple scrape is fricking essential to soldiering
good thing im not a soldier
>good luck when it rains
rainflies exist moron, tarps are heavy af
>you dont have time to gather firewood
yeah you do, because in a situation with NO RESSUPLIES as I had mentioned when I said that, you cant just have a lightweight stove forever, the butane runs out, you cannot get more, what is your plan when the butane runs out? snap your fingers and spawn some more in?
>1 days worth of water
so fricking what, if you live where water is plentiful filter more
You seem to be picking at my kit and telling me it is heavier than it actually is instead of just answering the original question. You are just made that my kit is lighter than yours. I am not a soldier, of course I am not going to need every single soldier thing, that should have been obvious to you.
>answering the original question
is your ESL getting in the way, or are you a moron in your own language as well?
you made a thread boasting about how lightweight your gear supposedly is and wondering if soldiers are carrying
>redundant shit they don’t need
I explained to you why you're hilariously wrong, and you reply that
>I am not going to need every single soldier thing
???
what the frick is wrong with you?
>I live in the tropics
then you should know better
>rainflies exist
so you need a proper waterproof overhead don't you, not
>just a hammock
isn't it? is this why you claim your gear is so lightweight, you're leaving shit off the list until conveniently reminded?
>in a situation with NO RESSUPLIES
you'll run out of food before you run out of fuel, shit-for-brains
and again because you seem to have comprehension problems, soldiers don't have time to dick around gathering firewood
>if you live where water is plentiful filter more
oh is that how you get by on 8lb of water and food, stop every few hours and collect more water? moron
>I am not a soldier
so much for "full battle rattle" then, LARPer
Two socks or two pairs of socks
he said 2 socks, so 2 socks.
>imma nasty girl I don't mind some muck 😉
>get crotch rot
>die
good job buddy
You don’t need to carry more than 2 liters of water if water is plentiful in the area, you can fill a designated dirt water bladder and filter it later if you are in a hurry
I’m assuming some of your ultralight gear for camping overlaps with your fighting load? In order for it to be that light it would need to be. Not a bad idea, not everything needs to be milspec shit
Yeah
With the exception of a blaze orange tent or something that is the way to to, I have a military type pack and a bright colored backpacking bag, they both have their place, but many of the contents will stay the same
Evolution. Soldiers nowadays are stronger than anyone in the past so they can carry more shit. A typical Roman would be a tiny manlet cuck with feeble crooked legs compared to a proper soldier from modern times.
This is the truth that >muh ancestors looked like Arny morons don't want to hear
Good nutrition is one hell of a drug.
I'm pretty sure Roman soldiers carried as much if not more weight than a modern soldier and they had to fricking walk everywhere
Not really because most of it was on the baggage train. For the most part individual units weren't expected to operate independently for any length of time and if they were, they'd be on horseback.
The Late Roman Army was more decentralised but even then the Limitanei were local territorial defence so were expected to operate off the local civpop when on patrol.
They didn't need to worry about the SPQR issued dilators though.
Huge modern soicuck copium
You will never have sex
Doubt. Modern pharamacology combined with shitty diet probably puts us behind the past.
SS+GOMAD
The nature of GWOT meant that soldiers weren't really advancing to contact like in conventional warfare and lesser mobility was accepted given the IED threat.
Once we go back to conventional warfare, then we'll likely see a lightening of patrol loads over time.
Pogs
Part of it is that the army doesn't want to do their jobs, so they make soldiers go out with multiple days' worth of sustainment.
Part of it is the fact that there are more things that are considered essential
Back in WW2, average GI's were carrying a little over half of the weight that modern ones do. But they didn't have body armor. They didn't have NODs, they carried half of the weight of ammunition, despite the individual rounds weighing almost 3x as much.
They also didn't carry a significant amount of food and water, because the Army had cooks and other supporting personnel who would follow the grunts, set up camp, feed them, etc. Today, the army says, "take a few MREs, and a few liters of water. See you in 3-4 days,"
if only infantry could throw their gear on a horseless wagon.
You need four pairs of socks minimum. Hands, feet, neck, balls. Extra socks warms them all.
50kg of equipment lol no. not even the lmg guy brings that much shit
>What?!?! 60% of body weight
>You mean I have to carry 300lbs???!!
I agree
The army should give ever soldier a tactimule
The clear difference between the Civil War Soldier and the Roman Legionnaire and the Modern Soldier is one of those three doesn't wear any body armor at all.
>From a lightweight backpackers perspective it all seems insane.
ever thought that you're just a pussy?
They did not have machine guns, grenades, body armor, handheld anti-tank/air weapons, radios, etc. in 1860. That's why.
This is seriously some shit you could have just googled. You're a moron.
and fighting loads. A SAW gunner goes into battle today carrying the equivalent of a sack of concrete on his person after carrying 2 of them to get there
>augustian roman legionaire in lorica segmentata
>sporting a beard
Beards were for uncultured barbarians until hadrian made them trendy. Before him everyone shaved
americans carry 56kg frick that's insane
How much do you think a Kilogram is?
56 kilos is an average adult woman
>the army was preparing me to be able to princess carry cute girls
Hell yeah, motherfricker