Why didn't militaries like multi shot rifles before the invention of smokeless powder?
Why didn't militaries like multi shot rifles before the invention of smokeless powder?
Why didn't militaries like multi shot rifles before the invention of smokeless powder?
Fouling issues. Blackpowder leaves a nasty, greasy residue.
First maxim guns didn't use smokeless powder and were still very effective weapons. Even if it hadn't been developed machine guns would've become a mainstay as a weapon
>Why didn't militaries like multi shot rifles before the invention of smokeless powder?
Germany, France, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Switzerland, Norway all adopted BP repeating infantry rifles before the debut of smokeless. If not for smokeless powder pic related would have been the standard French Army infantry rifle for probably the rest of the 19th Century.
Maxim gun is a lot bigger mechanism than a manually-operated repeater.
Ok enthusiastic but very unknowledgeable posting. The simple answer is they did as I will explain in my much longer next post
>Why didn't militaries like multi shot rifles before the invention of smokeless powder?
Mouth breathing tome inbound.
shush
The next we can look at is the Italian Vetterli-Vitali 1870/87, again a black powder repeater, originally a single shot vetterli bolt action with a
rear locking lugs as on the swiss model it was adapted in 1887 by adding the vitali magazine which accepted four cartridges in a tin and wood loading block, there was a cut off switch, a firing sector which stopped the magazine from feeding but without that engaged this was a 4+1 repeating rifle that fired black powder cartridges. AgainIt and the swiss are not the only ones and I will elaborate in my next post but so far we have two nations equipped with black powder repeating rifles, switzerland and Italy.
google.com
I own all the guns I will discuss as example but the first has to be the cold revolver whioch was adopted widely and was a repeating firearm. I hear you say, but we mean rifles at which point I direct you to the Swiss Vetterli which was first issued in 1869 (see Repetiergewehr Vetterli, Modell 1869/71) which had quite a large magazine capacity 12 + one in the chamber and is blackpowder and remained so., it went through numerous improvements up to 1892. It did not suffer from fouling for as few reasons, paperpatching but in design most critically for it was a bolt action, rear lugs on the bolt away from the chamber. It was an excellent rifle and one I recommend to any anon. I love the 1881 model and its horrific and giant sawback bayonet. Wonderful repeating black powder weapon. However it is far from alone.
Since I mentioned the vitali magazine in the ;last post on the Italian vetteri vitali black powder repeater lets go to the Netherlands now where in 1971 the Dutch issued the M1871 Beaumont as a single shot black powder rifle, it has several features of the French Gras but its bolt is interesting in that it contains the spring as a V spring in the bolt handle. ell you guess it, in 1888 the Dutch also added the vitali magazine to the Dutch Beaumont single shot creating the model 1971/88 . This was again block loading of four cartridges and one in the chamber. So now we have Switzerland, Italy and the Netherlands armed with repeating black powder rifles. is there more though? You bet there is as you will see in the next post!
And the first smokeless repeating arm was adopted when?
You are using a lot of words because you think you are a lot smarter than you are. It's the ultimate sign of ignorance to just listen to yourself talk.
NTA but you can't be this moronic.
And which military adopted that gun?
Adoption is a spook. It's easy to say the concept was "adopted" later because some small country had the resources to equip their whole army with them. However even though neither the remington or Henry were "adopted" they saw much wider use in combat, higher production runs and government orders.
Cope. If a military wasn't willing to standardize a gun there is no way to count anything. By that rationale everyone was using rifle muskets a hundred years before it really mattered because some skirmishes were equipped with them in onsey-twosey formations in some backwater nowhere countries.
Mass adoption is the best metric for discussions like this because it includes the balance of the upsides and downsides of a weapon.
You're a stupid little anon who knows very little about guns, the swiss vetterli repeater was adopted long before the invention of smo0keless powder as was for example the mauser 1884 which we can now discuss. The Mauser 1871 was adopted originally as a bolt action single shot but in 1884 like many single shits itr was updated to an 8 shot repeater by the addition of a tubular magazine under the bore creating the The Mauser Model 1871/84 a block powder relating rifle. Very much proving my point again, like the swiss vetterli that major militaries issued repeating blackpowder rifles (before) the invention of smokeless. We can continue further in the next post.
>, the swiss vetterli repeater was adopted long before the invention of smo0keless powder
My dumb, know-nothing Black person, Poudre B was released commercially in 1884, which is how many years is that after the adoption of vetterli?
Say it anon, say
>sorry I'm a dumb moron that doesn't know anything about guns
And I'll accept your apology.
I won't reply to you again, The first repeating standard issue rile was in Switzerland in 1869 long before the invention of poudre B and invalidates everything you suppositioned just by the fact it existed. If anything it illustrated that the single factor in adoption of repeaters was simply cost(Switzerland was very wealthy at the time) and not any other factor such as smokeless powder being invented,. You are an aguementit6ive ill informed idiot who does not know much about guns and this is your last (you)
>long before
15 years is not a long time. You are wrong and don't know anything about military arms history.
I'm back and so are you! Next the Austro Hungarian Empire, a vast and vanished 19th and early 20th centrry European empire destoyed by WW1. Well in the late 19th century they wanted a repeating rifle and boy did they get one the famous Ferdinand Mannlichers 1885/1886/1888 straight pull block loading repeaters. Of course the Austro-Hungarian empire was very big spamming many modern nations such as the czech republic, so aside from Italy, the Netherlands, switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Czech many other nations had black powder repeating rifles, we will discuss Germany next
Don't forget Kochetov 8,2 carbine.
I'll let you carry on anon, I was going to do the Kropatscheks next which were widely adopted as well. The supposition of OP and this anons
that repeating arms were not issued widely by major militaries before the invention of smokess is simply incorrect. There is nothing much to discuss beyond that except the various interesting repeating black powder guns that did exist. There were a mountain of repeating black power military revolvers as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kropatschek_rifle
Nevermind, Kochetov wasn't intended for military use and came up long after military transition to smokeless powder. However it was made with black powder rounds and unjacketed bullets in mind.
We already have endless examples. The fact is repeating standard issue military arms were around long before smokeless in major militaries. Reasons for delay in adoption were probably varied in reality, for example the US was using the trapdoor springfield in the era but lever actions still fired relatively anaemic cartridges (as did the swiss vetterli) and early repeaters, it took a while for the big bullet 43s like the mauser 1884 and Beaumont 1888 to join the repeater gang why did the US not move to a repeater faster? It had just fought a civil war. There was no will to spend on armaments, the trapdoor (like the British snider) was a modification using a muzzle loading percussion musket as a basis. How quickly nations jumped on the repeating rifle train depended on how much of an arms and power race they were in, how rich they were and how much political will there was to spend money on their militaries. This far more than blustering majors not liking the men wasting ammunition is the real reason for slower adoption. The war between Turkey and Russia in which Winchester repeaters (modified 1866s) 1877 Russo-Turkish War proved very useful and gave a great deal of impetus to repeater adoption.
>black powder
>in 1971
lol. lmao, even. The US was issuing repeating black powder rifles in 1861.
>in 1971 the Dutch issued the M1871 Beaumont
Do ya think it might be a typo? Do ya do ya thunk that? Or do ya thunk it was issued in 1971?
>Do ya think it might be a typo
The first time you did it, yeah. But after the 4th time you lost the benefit of doubt.
You go ahead and believe the Dutch issued a black powder rifle in 1971 then instead of 1871 as in the model number.
>The US was issuing repeating black powder rifles in 1861.
No it was not the best example of a widely issued US repeating black powder weapon are the colts and Remingtons. Were some lever actions about yes (those rifles that 'load once and shoot all day), but they were not standard issue. the swiss Vetterli 1871 was the standard infantry arm for the Swiss Army
Based autist.
The answer I heard was doctrinal, same reason you see magazine cutoffs on several bolt actions of the era. Brass thought giving infantry a magazine like that would encourage wasteful rapid firing. While fouling is an issue it's not a problem for infantry rifles and only gets noticeable when you're firing extremely fast. Furthermore there are ways to circumvent the issue entirely as already pointed out for me, so in short BPs filthyness was a reletively minor factor. But I think the big reason is just that smokeless came along relatively quickly after the metallic cartridge so there just wasn't enough time for a lot of countries to invest in BP repeaters
This was a good overview of European blackpowder repeating military rifles. Thanks, anon! I would add that percussion revolvers and later pinfire and centerfire revolver carbines and lever-action rifles should be included since various types served as military arms. But that's somewhat more common knowledge than bolt-action blackpowder repeaters. Good read.
money
The good old fashioned reason of "We've been doing it this way for so long and were not changing it any time soon"
The total span of time between the major industry adoption of a repeating cartridge arm and smokeless repeating cartridge arms really wasn't that long.
To give you a brief answer. The time between cartridge fed repeating arms being invented and smokeless cartridge fed arms being invented was brief. Military adoption of repeating arms before smokeless was yet shorter, only being about 20 years, which for large changes in military is extremely quick.
Also look.at the time between the first standardized metallic cartridge gun adopted (1860) and the first repeating smokeless gun (1888) less than 30 years separated muzzle loading rifles from bolt action smokeless guns.
>the first standardized metallic cartridge gun adopted (1860)
Surely for mass issue as standard to infantry that's the UK and the snider in 1864? What one are you thinking of in 1860?
Why does everyone in here type like they have severe autism.
What I've read from multiple sources was that the people in charge of logistics were perennially worried about the amount of ammunition soldiers would waste if given repeating rifles. The expense of keeping them supplied would just be too much. However they got over it relatively quickly after a few telling engagements.
I wonder
The main reason I've heard cited was that the brass didn't trust the infantry to have such weapons. Tactics of the time still employed leftover bullshit from Napoleon's day. They said that the boots would wildly fire off all their ammunition without discipline and then they'd be out of ammo and fricked.
This is why some early boltguns (or at least the Enfield, this issue may have been entirely a Brit problem) employ a magazine cutoff, when activated the mag won't feed and it functions like a single-shot weapon. This is also why handing full autos to infantry as standard took a while, though not quite as long as this hurdle. The US is a curious case where they did give their troops a rifle with a giggle switch, then took them away because the conscripts on LSD were blindly firing into the foliage. At the same time they made the M16 a burst fire weapon, they switched from conscripts to a professional military, negating the change but keeping it anyway. Anyway, now we're going back to battle rifles again for similar reasons.
Why don't nations immediately adopt the latest military technology like brass cartridges, percussion cap rifles, repeating rifles, F35s etc etc. Surprisingly enough and no one would have guessed it. The answer is money and cost.
A variety of reasons. One, there weren't many proven designs by 1886. Two, there was no rapid loading prior to smokeless. Three, the concerns about poor fire and ammo discipline. Four, the pace at which militaries had gone from adopting single shot cartridge guns to the discovery of smokeless was insanely rapid. The era of the black powder repeater was less than 10 years.
>One, there weren't many proven designs by 1886
There were.
>Two, there was no rapid loading prior to smokeless.
That's nothing to do with smokeless. Mannlicher invented the N Block loader and his rifles were black powder.
>Three, the concerns about poor fire and ammo discipline
Supurious reason
>. Four, the pace at which militaries had gone from adopting single shot cartridge guns to the discovery of smokeless was insanely rapid
True
>he era of the black powder repeater was less than 10 years.
Again the colt revolver IS a repeating black powder weapon.
The real reason was simply cost.
>Mannlicher invented the N Block loader
In 1886, the same year as smokeless.
>Colt revolvers
Black person, it's fairly evident this thread was about infantry rifles. And no, concerns about being able to supply troops were not spurious. Most of Europe was still in the process of industrializing, there was absolutely no way any power could reasonably expect to produce 5x the amount of ammo for their armies in the same amount of time.
Rigle muskets like the spingfiends and enfields and the first brass cartridge single shots like rolling blocks, sniders, Mauser 71, Gras and these early BP repeaters and their bayonets are fricking wonderful weapons to own and shoot. Enjoy
How about you read, anon? You think I've been shilling this book for no reason?
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL3156857W/The_gun_and_its_development
The Girandoni air rifle existed.
Also so did the revolver carbine.