You have two options in February 2022 as the leader of Russia's military:
Option A: Carry out precision decapitation strikes on critical military infrastructure and government buildings with your latest PGMs and technology, carefully advance while minimizing civilian casualties with strict ROEs and reminding everyone your enemy is not your brothers, just their government. This will hopefully antagonize the civilians as little as possible and galvanize your own supporters in the country. Use professional civilized soldiers who are disciplined enough not to rape and murder. Convince the UN you are trying to be as clean as possible to undermine international support for your enemy.
Option B: Try to Rush B in the most idiotic way possible. Have no discernible ROEs and start murdering and raping random civilians, even those who support you, using Chechens straight out of the 12th century. Use area of effect weapons you know will cause mass civilian casualties. When this fails, appoint people known as "Butcher" and "General Armageddon" to lead the invasion and level entire cities indiscriminately, laugh and use all your PGMs to attack civilian apartments, preschools, and infrastructure, crow constantly online about how you are going to kill them all and rape their women with Chechens. Do everything possible to ensure all but the most diehard of your supporters hate you, and use those supporters as cannon fodder. Go out of your way to be so brutal 97% of the UN including some of your "allies" condemn you.
>Option A: Carry out precision decapitation strikes on critical military infrastructure and government buildings with your latest PGMs and technology
Russia doesn't have PGMs and technology
>minimizing civilian casualties
Russia doesn't know how, for the last >300 years they've always tried to maximize civilian casualties
LOL, LMAO even
>Use professional civilized soldiers who are disciplined enough not to rape and murder.
At no point in history has russia or the soviet union had any of those
>Convince the UN you are trying to be as clean as possible to undermine international support for your enemy.
When you've spent the last 100 years doing nothing but lie, no one with an above average intelligence will ever believe you're telling the truth
>When you've spent the last 100 years doing nothing but lie, no one with an above average intelligence will ever believe you're telling the truth
>above average intelligence
never mind, carry on
Russians are scum. Always has been and always will be.
option A is alienspeak to them
option B is their buisness as usual
A is exactly what they tried. It all started with precision decapitation strikes using the best they had. Too bad russia cant into BDA.
This is the limit of their competence.
This, anon is purposely not remembering that the Russians paradropped into airports and ports to cut off aid while dishing out hundreds of sorties to cause panic. But they just didnt have enough modern equipment to continue after the first two days after it initially failed because of said quality. Vatnigs might try to cope it away in the coming years that Russia failed because of bad leadership, but they were actualky doing the most they could with what they had, the smart move would have been to not attack in 2022 but in 2014 when morale was actually low but that is just fantasy at this point and reserved for the alt history youtube channels
No, no. The initial assault ended in failure due to tactical absence, not due to lack of equipment, Russia had more than enough to take Kyiv at the start of the war. They failed due to being tactically null and deeply incompetent, and being outmaneuvered by the piggers. They never managed to attain air superiority even with the second biggest air force in the world.
Anon, Russia never had as many planes as they did, Ukraine was never in any danger of losing their own skies with sorties running non stop to save Kiev with streams from the start showing Ukraine also still having the ability to run sorties around Kharkiv and Mariupol weaks into the invasion even after the surprise attack. The only thing we know they actually had in the numbers they claimed were tanks and that’s because ukes have destroyed thousands of em. No amount of tactics available to Russia from their own leadership would have been able to destroy Ukraine when they all believed in a weak Ukraine with no morale being the main reason they even launched an attack knowing they lacking the jets and smart munitions they have told the world they had enough of to level all of Europe and still have enough to strike the US.
>Russia never had as many planes as they did
That's, like, deep and shit.
To put this into perspective, Russia fired 2 Kalibre missiles at Hostomel airport in an attempt to knock out the local national guard stationed there, one hit the exercise park and the other hit next to an empty residential building, both misses can be seen on google maps.
They genuinely believed Ukraine wasn't going to defend itself.
They did try multiple decapitation stikes at the beginning of the war, however. Early back in 2022 when the Kyiv offensive was at its peak you could read multiple articles about how Ukrainian defense forces had arrested or eliminated dozens of groups of armed men in civilian outfit trying to infiltrate Kyiv and allegedly going after Zelenskyy.
this, its not that they didn't try its that they got OUT FUCKING SKILLED
if anything had gone slightly differently in feb and march of 2022, we would all be praising russia for its military prowess like idiots were doing in 2014
Specifically, there were at least five assassination attempts aimed directly at Zelensky in the early days of the war, and up to a total of twelve indirect attempts after that as well.
But hold on I thought assassinating a nation's leader was a big no and would cause international condemnation? Does that mean Putin is fair game?
>they got OUT FUCKING SKILLED
Turns out Minute Men with small arms and territorial defense compliments on the spot with heavier MANPADs and such are not only necessary but vital in Total Defense. Imagine the Russians' surprise.
>why did Russia choose to behave like animals
I'm not sure it was a choice
There were (at least in the opening days) genuine attempts at option A, but Russia's government, military, and society are only capable of thinking in terms of option B.
Exactly: in the very first days you had the Russian command announcing the attack on the tv tower in Kiev to avoid casualties, while an unit outside the capital was setting up roadblocks shooting at civilian cars just for fun
>while an unit outside the capital was setting up roadblocks shooting at civilian cars just for fun
not for fun. They were ordered to shoot anyone who came down the road, so that's what they did. They were just following orders.
the road to hell is paved in "they were just following orders." if only russian soldiers had a spine.
You sure about that?
I think this happened earlier than that, on the very first day maybe
Correct, that's what the episode i was thinking of
Oh shit, maybe it wasn't such a hot idea to distribute weapons to civilians and ask them to attack convoys!
>how dare you defend your country?!
Genuinely hope the Ukrainians kill every last one of you and establish a Kyivan realm stretching from the Carpathians to the Urals.
you and the rest of the vermin like you deserve slow, painful death.
cuck: the post
Option A doesn't work when you're fighting a peer adversary who can shoot down your PGMs and air force.
Option B is the only thing the Russians know truly well
Because they are literal shit flinging moronS anon. I hope that after they get kicked out of Ukraine Russia does not Balkanize. I want them to turn into snow North Korea where the people suffer and starve under the iron paw of the supreme Monke. Because the russian are moronS and they deserve to SUFFER
That's not option A. Option A is literally doing nothing. Russia would be in a better position in every category if it just decided not to chimp out.
>option C: succeed in option B and smugly remind the world how many civvies the US killed in Iraq and Afghanistan while - according to trustworthy reports from international journalists - you have killed exactly zero in your special military operation*~~)
The US directly killed at most like 20,000 civilians. Their own countrymen and civil infighting killed the rest.
Holy shit that's a lot
For 20+ years, not really.
9/11 killed 2996 people and that led to America invading two countries
20k civilians is a gigantic number and time is irrelevant
They’ve definitely killed way than that
>false dichotomy poised by retarded frog spammer
I can only imagine the quality of discussion this bag of diarrhea of a thread is going to spark.
They did try option A, however Russians don't think rationally. They are underdeveloped apes who lack the critical thinking skills for the planning and implementation of such an operation.
Putin is a western plant.
Russians are fundamentally unable to comprehend the fact that people hate them. And when faced with it, they chimp out. Which causes people to hate them more - it's literally cycle of abuse but a nation.
They expected to be greeted as liberators, they literally short-circuited when they weren't. They are monstrously thin-skinned for image.
With regards to the Baltics, Poland, Czechs - you name it, Russians, for example, are on some level still furious they learned in 1990 that the locals in fact hated them for 50 years. Basically everyone who could drifting westward they took as a slap to the face & conspiracy.
This is where this is all coming from - the perceived-insult of "you should be thanking us, how is this happening" is what they default to.
>shitty facebook boomer tier attempt at humor
>die from highly concentrated cringe
You have tried to push this lie even before the invasion started, and it was always bullshit. If it were true, the VDV wouldn't have been depleted right then and there.
nah I am pretty sure thats what the news said
Of course it wasn't, keep reaching for that rainbow.
Option A is for pozzed western sissy army, REAL manly man army like Russia isn't afraid to take a more direct approach like option B. Also how dare you call it idiotic, it's incredible GLORIOUS and brave
VDV were conscripts? I guess that's why they performed so poorly
the VDV died because the conscripts never reached them
Is this the new cope narrative?
its what the news said
The real question is why Putin hasn't used nukes yet. Arguably a 100 strikes over Ukraine at the beginning of the war would have finished this long ago.
Because they don't work. The maintenance money was stolen 20 years ago.
>The real question is why Putin hasn't used nukes yet. Arguably a 100 strikes over Ukraine at the beginning of the war would have finished this long ago.
The actual plan is for US forces and allies to then respond with conventional forces in Ukraine. Wipe out hte black sea fleet, drive back the Russians. That's only for a limited nuclear strike, like a tactical nuclear weapon.
An all out strike would be responded with an all out counter strike against Russia. US intelligence knows where Putin is at any time so he can't just sit in a bunker and laugh as the world burns. There will be an ICBM with his name on it.
>The real question is why Putin hasn't used nukes yet.
They don't work, and even if they found one that did, Russia would be gone tomorrow.
>Wipe out the black sea fleet,
the fleet's already gone, Ukraine fucked it up with 0 effort.
>the fleet's already gone, Ukraine fucked it up with 0 effort.
Nah, I mean the flagship got hit and sunk, but the rest of the fleet is still there. They're just stuck in ports and can't do anything.
Wasn't the majority of what little they have all rusted out and due for repairs? The flagship was supposed to be the best of the best, and it was a floating fire hazard.
You are constructing a false narrative, they tried to keep civilian casualties to a minimum (not squashing protestors in Herson for instance) in the hopes the Ukrainians could be reasoned with in the end.
They were wrong.
Option A requires planning, preparation and training. The Russian armed forces as of Feb 2022 had just come off the usual low quality, huge size exercises used to make Russia look strong, and was waiting to de-mob. Then they got the invasion orders.
They traded competent preparation for surprise, and it didn't work out.
Please go die like a dog.
>Please go die like a dog.
That's your job hohol.
>that's your job hohol.
They are retarded and incompetent. Next question.
There were elements of Option A in the intial blyatzkrieg. Russia's plan clearly revolved around rushing an unprepared Ukrainian Army that largely wouldn't fight back, with some attempts at precision strikes to minimize what token resistance they might actually try to offer. The first day you had jubilant ziggers proclaiming Russia had completely disabled the AFU with little collateral damage, since Russia had expected to roll in to almost no military resistance and a mostly welcoming or at least acquiescent populace with only a few 'nazis' protesting in the streets. When it didn't happen and it turned out Russia had actually sent its best units to get chewed up and mired into a stalemate the mask slipped and you start seeing increasingly more of option B.
Option C would be to just leave and say it was a prank to own nato, the blood packs will go bad but with how how many people have died in this war, you could have just kidnapped a bunch of criminals and drained them dry to replace the blood.
Option A wouldn't work how you think it would because the Ukies understand that no matter how nice the invaders are they are still trying to make you part of Russia with all the gay rape and child prostitution that comes with that.
Option A is the MSM portrayal of their own wars
Option B is the MSM portrayal of their opponents wars
I wish it wasn't true but it is, Aussie war criminals had their asses covered by the government and as an Aussie I want to see those fuckers prosecuted.
Giving your enemy any reason to not surrender is fucking retarded.
makes sense. With the GWOT conflicts, I noticed a trend where western war crimes got reported, and the counter message was “reporting this information puts our troops at risk of reprisal attacks”, which is true. It’s a fine line, but prosecuting them transparently as you suggest could have mitigated some of the reputation damage. Today, it seems that the general IQ of war coverage has dropped considerably, where everything unfavorable must be 100% fake and “disinformation”.
You're gonna think I'm full of shit but Russians genuinely don't believe that the West actually believes in all those goody-goody "rules of warfare" and "civilization" and "human rights" they talk about. They sincerely think all that shit is just a psyop meant to trick other countries into weakening themselves so they'll be easy prey for NATO/America/English imperialism or whatever villain of the week they're harping on.
I shit you not when I say that evil cannot comprehend good, because evil is fundamentally insane at a causative level.
Authoritarian governments aren't just randomly authoritarian, they legitimately believe it's the best way forward. They will always be paranoid, and will only feel comfortable if they dominate and control everything around them. It leads to a cycle of self-destruction, when we've found that working together is better for everyone.
eg. The Empire of Japan versus modern day Japan. Today Japan achieves every single goal of the Empire of Japan's aims through peaceful trade and co-existance, is richer, and far safer. Russia could have opted to go this route, but they instead continued the imperialism route.
The fault lays with the commanders who genuinely don't care how many randoms die. Designing actual barriers, and with signs, would help, but they don't care. Just kill and shoot enough people so that they eventually get the point.
>The Empire of Japan versus modern day Japan. Today Japan achieves every single goal of the Empire of Japan's aims through peaceful trade and co-existance,
Wat, no they don't. The goal of Imperial Japan was explicitly adding land directly under Japanese control for an isolated "Greater Asia" that was solely and explicitly controlled by Japanese leaders. At no point does the current Japan come close to that. In fact they have forgone control over their own soil as evidenced by the Russian continued occupation.
>Wat, no they don't. The goal of Imperial Japan was explicitly adding land directly under Japanese control for an isolated "Greater Asia" that was solely and explicitly controlled by Japanese leaders. At no point does the current Japan come close to that. In fact they have forgone control over their own soil as evidenced by the Russian continued occupation.
Would we have been better off if they had stayed imperial? One benefit would be we wouldn't have to deal with China ever again. We wouldn't have anime though.
No. Imperial Japan was a mess and brutal. They would have been dealing with countless revolts and all of Korea, Vietnam, and China would be far more aggressively Communist as they build guerilla movements to equalize and destroy a literal Empire. Japan itself would likely have never modernized to the point it did today and likely by as early as the 50s would be facing issues internally as they failed to meet resource needs caused by these movements
What is the goal of taking all that land? Bragging rights? Japan is resource poor, and they need the resources (especially the oil from Indonesia). Now Japan gets all these resources without killing millions, pissing off their neighbors, and sparking a disasterous world war.
The whole Imperialist approach was beyond outdated by 1945. The Adam Smith style globlalization replaced it is much better.
The goal was resource extraction and traditional empire building modern trade is in no way comparable to imperial resource extraction. Modern Japan being a liberal western economy is even more different than the Imperial economy as the Imperial would have primarily extracted luxury goods and raw goods from the Chinese rather than buying the manufactured goods on an open market. To this day no Empire exists as the model is not only outdated but near impossible to sell thanks to the open market the US has created (which you already noted). Imperial Japan would never have become a liberal open trade economy, it would have been more likely to have a planned economic approach ala Russia
russians legitimately believed ukraine would surrender on the first day.
>galvanize your own supporters in the country
What, the whole fucking dozen of them?
Not sure how to break it to you, Anon, but Russian unpopularity in Ukraine isn't a recent historical anomaly.
You had some radical Ukraine supporters, mostly in the west.
You had some radical Russia supporters, mostly in Donbabwe and Luganda.
Most Ukrainians in the near east, Kherson/Kharkov, were like "i speak Russian and i speak Ukrainian Ukrainian nationalists are morons Russian nationalists are morons. Zelensky is a garden gnome trying to steal money, Putin is a garden gnome trying to siphon money"
Then Russia came and moroned out and all those people who could have been sold being Russian since they didn't care that much anyway now exclusively vow to speak Ukrainian and slaughter Russia cause the Russians calibrated their 3yo niece and bragged about it.
The long drawn out war in the east really soured people. The old rule was east of the River - Russian speaking and more sympathetic, west they were more western. The Donbas war changed that and made everyone more nationalistic. And then the invasion doubly so.
Also a cruel irony is that the most pro-Russian cities in the East were utterly leveled. So a lot of the pro-Russians literally are dead (we have no idea how many actually died and won't until post-war), or they fled to Russia proper.
Imagine smiling hearing at first the Russians are coming, and 2 weeks later your house is a fucking crater? Tons of stories of old ladies waving Russian flags welcoming the Russian army, only then being horrified when they go full looting and mass rape.
>Tons of stories
Bedtime scary stories hohlushas tell their kids have little to do with facts though.
The main issues with rus ROE are
1. They don't train much on ROE
2. They wanted to preserve the secrecy of the invasion so Ukraine wouldn't mobilize (which they did and thats how Russia managed to capture so much land early), which meant most soldier were deployed without mich briefing, except you must be here at this moment, then attack this place at this moment, then be on a defensive position here at this moment. With no clear, ROE, isolated unit hearing rumours of Ukrainian civies resisting or experiencing it first hand just did what the fuck they thought was the right thing to do to maintain their objective, including firing at civies approaching their roadblock. (And I guess the anti ukrainian propaganda depicting them as fanatics didnt help)
Trying to make a clean war would have change nothing (protip, you cant make a clean war when you aren't having an absolute upper hand over your enemy. When an unit need fire support, it needs it now and it cant wait 1h for you to adjust properly. 1h later the whole unit is dead.
The whole clean war while not realistic isnt even useful because UN would condemn anyway what is an obvious breach of its status. It may be good in the long run, but if this war was planned to be this long, the best decisiion would have been to scrap the whole operation and just annex donetsk and luhansk.
Also, I believed they tried to make A and ended up with B with the execution.
>preserve the secrecy of the invasion
everyone knew about it
Five Eyes and Ukraine caught on, but not Germany and France.
And, the AFU bought the thing about Kyiv being a feint for conquering the Donbas. The actual invasion clarified that it was the main objective.
>but not Germany and France
knowing and saying that you know are different things
Option C, do not do anything. Make the US look like schizos, fracture NATO more than it already is (this is assuming that this is early 2022), continue to run psyops in states like Ukraine as they were already having internal issues due to their politics being a carbon copy of Russian politics, and continue to sell to retarded European who think that Russia is not crazy enough to go to war. Putin literally snapped defeat in the jaws of victory
Putin should have waited until NS2 was running for a few years. What a choke artist.
>be Putin advisor
>propose Option A
>Putin says that sounds like a lot of work
>some other gay pipes up and says he can take Kiev in three days with a fraction of the existing army
>Putin goes with that guy's plan instead
>you get humiliated and exiled for being "difficult"
You forgot the part where the other guy brings in a chart drawn in crayon that shows that option a makes Russian people sad while option b makes Russian people happy
They did try Option A in February 2022. Early war days showed footage of them getting heckled by civvies and molotovs thrown at their vehicles but otherwise maintained ROEs. Remember, they were more or less expecting this to go like 2014 or the Afghanistan pullout a year earlier. They invaded with a force of around 200k thinking that would suffice and opened with their own shock and awe attempt at gutting Ukriane's military infrastructure and AD network.
It was when the invasion got bogged down they started doing more of B as frustration mounted and distrust of civilians recording them started building up.
Friendly reminder, with the desire of Crimea and east Ukraine to leave Ukraine and join Russia, they fully couldve played the political game and snatch them up with little military intervention. Why is Putin so stupid?
It probably was both internal issues and really bad advising from generals/oligarchs, along with his own feeling of invincibility, that made Putin do this. He most likely believes that he won't be touched as long as Russia doesn't suffer such na objective defeat like how they did in WW1
he's a dictator. It's mandatory in nature to shoot oneself in the foot.
If they had gone for a limited offensive, e.g. just the east bank of the Dnepr, do you think they would have succeeded?
Putin got tricked by a gnomish double agent who told him that the ukies would fold and that everything was set up for a quick takeover on their side which was completely false. This guy was later killed by the ukie SBU during the initial ceasefire talks because they didnt trust him.
People were making molotov cocktails and blocking the streets and were getting ready to fight them away thinking their army would fold. It did not fold. Option A was never on the table.
Speed and surprise is literally the best option for conventional war, they started at around 3-4am which is the usual time for any invasion since nearly everyone is in deep sleep.
They did try A. They failed so miserably that they had to try B.
They didn't choose Option B. They chose Option A.
That's the whole problem, froggy friend.
Why not just pull an America and give a shit load of financial support to an accommodating leader while making it not in their best interest to oppose you. The thing with carrot and stick that Russia doesn't understand is that you need a carrot. Ukraine was by no means a purely anti-Russian nation before this bullshit and outright attacking them like this over just talking about the NATO thing was incredibly dumb. I wouldn't have attacked at all and I don't think I would have needed to in my pursuit of rebuilding the Russian Empire. Why does everyone assume that Empires of any age only got powerful through military force when diplomacy and petty king making was just as important?
Yeah, just try to economically compete with the nation that can outspend you 100x over. Great idea!
Military might is king, always has been always will be, Russia attacked because it's corrupt top to bottom and told Putinski what he wanted to hear.
>oh yeah sure vlad, ukraine is totally sympathetic, they hate zelinsky and will totally let you in with open arms with minor force and let you re absorb them into your glorious rape dungeon!
Except public opinion was mixed at best, and there was no significant Russian bootlicker force.
So They got fucked, and kept getting fucked.
>Carry out precision decapitation strikes on critical military infrastructure and government buildings with your latest PGMs and technology, carefully advance while minimizing civilian casualties with strict ROEs and reminding everyone your enemy is not your brothers, just their government
Thats what they tried on the first day. Turned out that russian precision long range weapons were not very precise and effective.
No, it turns out hohol animals only respect force, so only option B works.
The initial Holostomel push was option A. It fell apart because the Ukrainians managed to mount far better defenses than the Russians planned for. Arguably this is likely due to the training and Intel they received. Once the airport plan failed the Russians were forced into a weird spot as their armor convoy got jumped before they could hit the capital. Russia's playbook was very much Czech/revolution put down and it could have worked, but once it failed they were placed in a full war scenario and now at this point use their equipment much less carefully.
>Rush B in the most idiotic way possible. Have no discernible ROEs and start murdering and raping random civilians, even those who support you
They're still Communist because there was no Nuremberg for the Soviets. The Iron Triangle of Party, Security, Military was broken by the first two ganging on the Military after the August Coup. From a doctrinal strategic emphasis on The Missile Arm as the decisive war making branch (i.e. rationalization of being incapable of training and preparing the kind of conventional force required for their apocalyptic delusions) you have a hollowed out conventional force that is only intended to leap frog over intermediate yield nuke spam and ethnically cleanse & occupy the Western Pinko Euro remnants.
Fast forward to today, and both ends of the Sino-Soviets are incapable of domestic high end chip manufacture at scales required to even service 1990s levels of precision munitions Gulf War style. So they either blow their entire stockpile load from the outset and bet the farm (the only possible preparation that could have made the initial gamble go the way they wanted) or they waffle on the Communist economic coom brain thinking that the "internal contradictions of Capitalism" will implode Western finance with a little help from Russian & Chinese converged legacy communist fronts like the WEF, IMF, BIS et. al. that want luxury automated caste systematized socialism for me but not for thee.
They failed to bet the farm. They failed to bait a ground comittment from either NATO or the US so the Reds out east could swoop on Taiwan. They blew off their foot and leg below the hip releasing the Coof bioweapon (which also failed to have any of the desired effects kinetically or economically).
What you have are two cargo cults that exist solely thanks to the USA's maneuverings last century to castrate the European Colonial Powers and their shitbrain Zero Sum Game world wars. Absent Lend Lease inputs, you get paper tiger charades.