This, + the performance gains are over-exaggerated as frick and in the case of a catastrophic failure it blows your head off. Memepups always have been and always will be a moronic fricking concept meant to impress no-gun politicians and homosexuals that spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
>what do you mean putting the receiver right next to your jugular and skull is a bad idea in case of a catastrophic failure?
Least moronic bullpup teenager.
>catastrophic failures never happen bro, just don't worry about i- ACK!
?si=kcRYWRSQREHDgA4b&t=17
Thanks for confirming you're a no-guns homosexual, homosexual.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>dude all rifles are just like AR15 derivatives
Crazy how stupid you are lol.
RIP to anyone using an AR bullpup chassis tho lmao
2 months ago
Anonymous
>bullpups aren't subject to the laws of physics
This is so moronic i'll assume you're baiting.
The assessment of the IDF is that the weaknesses of the Tavor are inherent in all bullpup designs. It's not a failure any more than the AUG was or would have been.
They bought more today as part of emergency procurement for the war. Nobody is denying they're slated for replacement.
>The assessment of the IDF is that the weaknesses of the Tavor are inherent in all bullpup designs.
That's been my point the entire time. Bullpups are the communist manifesto of the gun world; an inherently shit and flawed design dreamt up by some mongoloid pseud with 0 real world practical experience.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>dude physics >posts a wojak
Youre unbelievably stupid bro.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>wojak posting
r/wojak lost bro
2 months ago
Anonymous
>conventionals are the communist manifesto of the gun world. Rabid fans still willing to double down on it despite its aged flawed reputation, insisting their version is the best example. And it's a SBR firing proof rounds trying to mimic its greatest competitor and polar opposite
2 months ago
Anonymous
This can't happen with the Textron NGSW/Steyr ACR action.
so you *don't* have any pictures of people being decapitated by catastrophic failures? you seem so confident about it, I assumed you have some evidence to support your ridiculous claim.
come on m8, GI Bruce, GI Pierre and GI Schlomo have been using these things for decades, if they're as dangerous as you say surely at least ONE grunt moron must have tried to larp as Roland by now.
I mean, unless you're just totally full of shit or something...
Really, not even one single rumor of someone in the past 40 years or so having their bullpup fail catastrophically enough for the blast to tear straight through the chamber walls into their face, and not just shearing the bolt lugs and venting out the magwell and ejection port like you'd expect? Just pure speculation?
This, + the performance gains are over-exaggerated as frick and in the case of a catastrophic failure it blows your head off. Memepups always have been and always will be a moronic fricking concept meant to impress no-gun politicians and homosexuals that spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
It's kinda funny Kentucky ballistics released a video on this very subject today. Weird coincidence of space and time just to prove you wrong
Lipstick on a pig
Instead of jumping through a million hoops to make a fundamentally crappy design work as well as a mediocre gun, they should have just made a normal gun that doesn't suck balls
VHS2 has an awful trigger though, and the LoP goes from A1 stock to Jesus Christ what the frick and even at 6'1 does not feel good especially when using body armor. The bolt release is also stupid, and the bad G36 style charging handle is annoying to use in the cold with gloves. The fricking Tavor SAR is a more ergonomic rifle.
My mind is totally changed on the Hellion >herein, "VHS2"
I've fricked around with every significant 5.56 bullpup on the US market (even the FS2000) and shot a couple (AUG and Tavor). I got to check out the VHS2 and AUGA3 back to back the other day.
First time checking out a VHS2 actually and I loved it. I've had a hard-on for the AUG since forever but I stopped thinking about it entirely since I played with the VHS2.
The only thing AUG has going for me now is nostalgia, which is very much a factor for me in my collection, but the VHS2 is just soooooooooooo nice
Are we talking about conventionals or what? What's the ergos of a front heavy musket with "milspec" mush and no unique design to the point of soullessness? All the things you mentioned are skill issues
>ergonomics
Too unskilled to train >shitty triggers
Too unskilled to find one's with good triggers >ugly
No skills can save bad taste
What is the list of AUG users?
What is the list of Tavor users? >inb4 they're being replaced because bullpup bad
No, the Augs are getting replaced because they're getting old and the 416 undercuts it and works better (granted the 416 outperforms just about everyone especially when you consider the price to performance ratio) >but the israelites use M4s
Yeah they get them for free. They'd use rusty AKs if they got them free by the boatload
Israel is buying homegrown piston or DI ARs from local manufacturers (IWI, Emtan, Silver Shadow) to replace Tavor. It's not a question of money. They realized the entire bullpoop design is fricked from beginning to end.
This despite being involved in intense urban warfare with mechanized infantry, exactly where the bullpoop design was supposed to excel.
Bullpups don't need to be better than the AR15 to replace it, they need to be substantially better and solve a problem the AR can't in order to get past the bias of 60 years of usage, logistics, etc. the AR has built up. The fact is if you already have an AR purchasing an Aug or similar is hard to justify.
Most of the historical issues with bullpups have been solved, maybe the triggers are still not as good but rails, ergonomics, etc.
There's very little proof the AR has inherently better ergos than the bullpup, in fact there was a study done that showed most people are more effective with a 16" bullpup than a 16" AR (James Reeves vid lol).
I like both the AR and Aug, imo bullpups are good for the US civilian market due to our SBR laws.
Getting an AR of comparable quality to a stock Aug already gets you close to the same price as a civilian, idk about the military. With economy of scale they'd probably cost a similar amount.
>There's very little proof the AR has inherently better ergos than the bullpup
Gun people don't know what "ergonomics" actually means, they just think it's a measure of how much like an AR a gun's user interface and user experience are.
I don't even understand what your point is. It seems like you're saying that it's impossible to move on from the AR platform because of decades of inertia, but there's currently 0 years of inertia because the AR was just replaced with something almost completely different.
>There's zero years of inertia because, after half a century of trying to replace the AR, they finally managed to replace it—with a piston AR that had an extra, AR-style charging handle added to it mid-development because it wasn't enough like an AR already
pfft
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Literally everything about it is changed except for the position of the safety, mag release, and charging handle, but it's still totally the exact same gun!
Who says anything about replacement? You seem fixated on the idea that a gun must be mass adopted by whoever just to be "good", instead of seeing the merits of the gun alone. On several counts the bullpup excels compared to conventional layouts, like compactness and ergonomics. The only limitation is the user(s).
Fudds and technophiles to this day despise the idea of an electronic trigger in firearms, which is the only improvement needed to make bullpups usable and good (as an inherently poor trigger is probably their only objectively true and valid criticism)
>DUDE, DUDE, DUDE!! A HECKIN' BULLPUP WITH AN ELECTRIC TRIGGER!! JUST LIKE IN MY HECKIN' STAR-WARS!!
I'll say it again, bullpups are for no-gun homosexuals who spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
Whatever opinion you have is immediately invalidated through the attachment of a wojack. Even though I'd normally agree with you I am obligated to call you a moronic know nothing homosexual who should delete your brain's system 32
>an inherently poor trigger
Noguns please stop opinining when you have no fricking clue.
No, its not inherent and there are many that have objectively good triggers.
No. Its not a fricking valud criticism.
A good trigger, in this context, are superior to a milspec AR trigger.
After market tavor triggers are good, MDRX triggers are good out of the box, as are RDB triggers. I cant speak to the AUG with improved trigger components but they are reportedly good, Tavor T7 is reportedly good out of the box as well.
>objectively good trigger
Define this and provide an example of a bullpup that meets your criteria.
Don't forget the M17S and without some gimmicky e trigger. People always say guns like the AR and the Glock HAVE so much aftermarket. People never say WHY they do. Because they suck. True Perfection™ needs no improvement
I thought it was because patents expire or licensed copies get sold, some things are judged to be cost inefficient to make by some companies but not others, everyone wants ways to bring their gear, companies trying to sell you more product, or any of the other reasons.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Equally plausible but the point still stands. No one would buy an upgrade if the original part was fantastic by itself. For parts that didn't exist on the original gun, that's fair and has no relevance to this matter.
>DUDE, DUDE, DUDE!! A HECKIN' BULLPUP WITH AN ELECTRIC TRIGGER!! JUST LIKE IN MY HECKIN' STAR-WARS!!
I'll say it again, bullpups are for no-gun homosexuals who spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
>an inherently poor trigger
Noguns please stop opinining when you have no fricking clue.
No, its not inherent and there are many that have objectively good triggers.
No. Its not a fricking valud criticism.
>Adding additional points of failure >Adding battery requirements
Why
Is it not possible to design a two-stage trigger where the first stage is the electronic trigger, but continuing to pull into the second stage manually operates the trigger in the event of an electronics failure?
Yeah you could but why would you bother?
Good mechanical triggers are perfectly achievable in a bullpup.
I dont understand the fascination with electronic triggers in small arms.
It just strikes me that such a trigger might be a workable compromise between the: >bullpups can't have a trigger that can be worked by a mouse fart REEEEEEEEE
and the >what if my batteries die REEEEEE
crowds
Bullpups take one of the most simple mechanical properties and complicates it. Then tries to find solutions to a problem it itself created by its very design. Then people wonder why everyone shits on bullpups.
Well one of those isnt a valid complaint and the other is.
Your whole premise is that both of these kinds of b***hing are both valid. They arent.
Bullpups take one of the most simple mechanical properties and complicates it. Then tries to find solutions to a problem it itself created by its very design. Then people wonder why everyone shits on bullpups.
Example A, a "complication" is a trigger bar.
Wow an insurmountable and unacceptable complication.
>Simple mechanism: Pull something so that it releases another object >Complicated mechanism: pull something so it pulls something else so it releases another object, solutions needed to make the pull as fast as the firs thing
Feel free to continue using your bullpups, touting their supremacy, just stop being asspained that nobody wants to hear your squeaky wheel complaining that nobody wants your guns and tells you to frick off.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah I will continue using them, along with my other conventional ARs and AKs
And Im not complain that no one wants to use them, which isnt true, only that bullpup haters primary gripes arent grounded in reality and primarily consist of some feels based homosexualry.
You dont have to like them, but why lie?
>wanting guns to be subject to cyber warfare
It's not that serious man
Come on man it's just a little wire to make the gun shoot, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man it's just a little motor for the wire to talk to, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man it's just a little chip to make the motor more precise, it's not gonna hurt nothin'
Come on man it's just a little computer to make the chip fail less, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man, it's just a little software to make the computer more efficient so your gun doesn't die mid-engagement, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man we just need a little virus so the other guys guns stop working, wait why is it turning on us oh frick
Let's not
It is that serious, actually
whew, good thing we haven't incorporated electronics into our military trucks, ships, aircraft, munitions, surveillance, and communication systems, or else you might have a point!
>pedant moron
Thank you for your concession, noguns
1 month ago
Anonymous
adhoms are the highest form of refutation
so where's the computer virus that turned on us and bricked all of our boats and drones? seems like a perfectly reasonable argument against electronic triggers.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>whataboutism, again
Thank you for your concession, nogu- >instant response
Thank you for your concession, fed. You tell me.
Looks absolutely gorgeous. The aesthetics are off the charts, though that front square hotbox looks like a pain to grab and the idea of a sight that far forward weirds me out a bit
If you're able to do so you can put red dots/holographics as far forward as you want, the reason we don't do it on ARs is that handguards drift more than receivers. You're super imposing the dot on the target so the farther forward you can put it the less it's shell will cover up.
Why is it that everyone talks about baller trigger upgrades and trigger bows but then when a bullpup needs that very same upgrade /k/ baby rages at the notion.
Bullpups are used by a few nations usually ones where urban combat is the norm and you need all the advantages within these tight spaces hence why bullpups are used. A standard layout standard length AR requires you to mount the stock on your shoulder in order to sweep a doorframe. >muh mag is beehive me I can't reload qq
Training scars from standard layouts, simply drill the new ergos if you like the advantages bullpups give.
The Textron NGSW-R would just be a needlessly complicated Steyr ACR. The -AR would be interesting since you could use pneumatics to eject forward while feeding backward, which eliminates the need for anything behind the chamber and would let you make a rifle with nearly 100% barrel length to OAL ratio.
>It's not actually any shorter though
But it is shorter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKB-022PM >TKB-022PM >Length 525 mm >Barrel length 415 mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco_Type_86S >Norinco Type 86S >Length 667 mm >Barrel length 438 mm
The rest comes from bolt/bolt carrier length. In fact if you had a minimally short bolt carrier you could get the same overtravel and the same action length as the TKB-022PM which is why that system has never been and will never be used anywhere.
because the US never adopted one
go back in time and force Eugene stoner to make the AR-15 a bullpup if you want them to "succeed"
any other anon in this thread claiming any other reason is a moron
And this removes that bar in the bullpup that naturally has to be there for the trigger to pull? Making it the equivalent of a glass break trigger on an AR? otherwise I wouldn't be asking about putting a Geissle trigger in there.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The bar usually gets replaced along with the trigger pack with an aluminum one because the tavor has a push trigger bar.
The best bullpups have a pull trigger bar, so the linkage bending is mitigated.
And yeah, the super sabra trigger is great.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Shouldn't all of the bits that affect the feel of the of the trigger be located before the linkage? Seems like in a properly built bullpup, the linkage should have as little effect on the trigger pull as the firing pin does.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The lightning bow for the X95 (separate from the actual trigger pack) makes the trigger have a clean break with no slop. Yet another thing that should have been atock on the gun from the factory.
The RDB trigger is honestly the best factory trigger I’ve ever shot
I just like it (:
I have other guns to rely on if shit really hits the fan, but I like it, it’s fun to shoot and the mag release is great.
Pretty accurate with sierra Match King 77grs too
Take a full size AR with a silencer and hold it. Now do it with a tavor. It's a massive difference. If you think reloads are slower then you don't own a bullpup or have never attempted to train with it for even 15 minutes. All of the issues attributed to them are from people that have never trained with them for even a few minutes.
>B-b-but a 42" overall length front heavy rifle with a silencer isn't that big of a deal. It's way better than a 34" overall length bullpup with a silencer and with weight perfectly balanced in the center.
Bullpup rifles haven't entirely failed to take off, but they're not as widely adopted as traditional designs for a few reasons:
Unfamiliar Ergonomics: The trigger sits further back on a bullpup, which can feel awkward to some shooters used to a more traditional layout. Controls like magazine release and firing mode selector might also be in different positions.
Left-handed Use: Some bullpups are less lefty-friendly due to the side charging handle or brass ejection location.
Weight Distribution:While bullpups can be shorter overall, placing the magazine behind the trigger can affect weight balance, especially with heavier ammo.
Mag Changes: Mag changes on some bullpups can be slower or more cumbersome due to the rearward magazine placement.
However, bullpups do have advantages:
Shorter OAL (Overall Length): This makes them easier to maneuver in tight spaces.
Potentially Improved Balance:Depending on the design, the weight distribution can be more centered for better handling.
Barrel Length:Maintain a longer barrel for better performance in a shorter overall rifle.
So, bullpups haven't necessarily failed, but they cater to a more specific preference. Militaries often have a conservative approach to adopting new firearms, and soldier familiarity with existing rifles plays a role. That said, bullpups are seeing increased use in some special forces and militaries worldwide, and some civilian shooters appreciate their advantages.
>bullpups are seeing increased use
FAMAS being phased out, replaced by full length rifle. AUG being phased out, replaced by a full length rifle. Tavor is a complete fricking failure, already replaced by full length rifles despite IDF leadership coping hard and buying more to save face. Not a single serious military on planet earth uses a bullpup, and they never will.
>famas
True, because the french destroyed their domestic small arms manufacturing, not because the FAMAS was a failure >Aug
Lol wrong, try again, no New Zealand doesnt count lmao >tavor is a failure
You said it yourself, they bought more tavors you dumb Black person. Keep coping.
The assessment of the IDF is that the weaknesses of the Tavor are inherent in all bullpup designs. It's not a failure any more than the AUG was or would have been.
They bought more today as part of emergency procurement for the war. Nobody is denying they're slated for replacement.
>FAMAS being phased out, replaced by full length rifle.
They're buying more 11.5" 416Fs than 16" ones—almost like they care more about having a shorter, handier rifle than other factors, even external and terminal ballistics.
Then shorter rifle should be handier. They obviously don't care about 20" ballistics.
2 months ago
Anonymous
A 20" FAMAS is already about the size of an MP5, so making it that much shorter would be pursuing diminishing returns. 11.5" 5.56 is a compromise only forced by conventional layout rifles; on a bullpup a barrel that short barely leaves you with enough room to put your support hand anywhere.
If I need performance of a 20" barrel, I'm going with a free float hand-guard.
There will never be a justification for this.
2 months ago
Anonymous
But I want to hit someone in the chest with 55 grains of lead going 3200 fps when they’re down the hall and I don’t need a free float hand guard to do it
Austria, Ireland and Australia are gonna use the aug for the next two decades +, it's going no where and is the really only viable bullpup as much as this makes gaymas and smelion owners seethe
"It's not what the US military uses, so it must be bad."
Neither on paper nor in practice is there anything fundamentally wrong with bullpups, and there's a lot fundamentally right with them that conventional rifles can't hope to match—they're shorter for any given barrel length/have more barrel for any given OAL, they're less fatiguing to shoot and manipulate due to their superior balance, magazine changes are better since the magwell is right there behind your wrist instead of out in front of your knuckles somewhere, etc.
Just looking at the gun and how it is to shoot, there's no practical reason to use a primitive, cumbersome, front-heavy pig of a gun like a SCAR or HK416 instead of a well thought-out, modern design like an AUG or Tavor.
>it's another "bullpup homosexuals go on schizobabble rant"
That's right bro, it's all a CONSPIRACY by GLOBALIST POTBELLYGOBLIN AR-15 manufacturers to keep da bullpup down, dog.
Millenials holding back technological advancement because we're the new boomers trying to hold onto the M14 which also stayed WAY past its time. We hold onto the AR15 because we're afraid of change and also moronic consoomers have like 20 of them and don't want them to become irrelevant, but it's inevitable. Wasn't even a good platform to begin with and that shows even more now.
Yoomers also caused this beauty to lose to the absolute POS that is the Sigstein Spearburg. Btw this thing has a switch that makes it go between open and closed bolt firing, so it's a machine gun and rifle in one package, and the ammo doesn't even get hot. It's by far the most advanced small arm in existence currently.
>ackshually millennials are to blame for why this radically different weapons platform that you need to relearn controls for didn't take off and why I couldn't make money I mean they couldn't make money
This post is very organic.
You learned the controls for one rifle, you can do it again. Given that any bullpup designed in the current year will necessarily bend the knee to the AR15 user interface everywhere it can, the only major concession your dumb ass will have to make is learning to put the magazine behind your wrist instead of in front of your knuckles.
>one rifle
Try 10 different rifles. If your post is earnest contrary to as I pointed out earlier (again, red flags for blaming an entire generation of people) then you can sit in the corner with the rest of the fudds crying boo hoo why didn't my shitty ideas take off.
Most gun owners have multiple different guns with different controls and don't have an issue with it. One set of soldiers might have training scars but that's not really the military's concern, it'll iron itself out fairly quickly and guarantee they claim to care but don't actually. They picked the Shig because of kickbacks. Thing has two fricking charging handles anyway, how moronic. I will never stop laughing at how dumb our country has become.
>different guns with different controls
We're not talking a paddle release vs a push button release. Having to learn a new manual of operations for bullpups is a real con that people (read, militaries) discuss being worth it for adoption of said rifles.
It has mostly the same controls except for the charging handle. Charging handle placement is a major flaw on the AR15 for both having to break cheek weld to use it and shitting gas straight up your nose.
Militaries aren't realistically losing men because of manual of arms hiccups, vast majority of engagements are at distance anyway. Stop it, that's a lame excuse to not adopt objectively better equipment.
The charging handle does charging handle stuff. The magazine release releases the magazine. The new magazine goes into the magazine well. The safety turns the gun on and off. The controls are in slightly different places, but any AR user who can learn to shoot an MP5 or AK can learn to shoot an AUG or something just as well.
I'm starting to recognize how disengenuous you "people" in these threads are.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Not an argument, just an ARgay butthurt that his grandpa gun sucks and will be replaced with something more space efficient once we have uncorrupt leadership...
2 months ago
Anonymous
>ARgay
Not an argument. I prefer the AK. Also no skin off my bones that your homosexual platform is dying while even AKs are having a resurgence.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I like AKs but because they're a relic of the past, seems modern designs cannot match the robustness and simplicity. That doesn't mean it's a high performing or comfortable to use gun. We have had chances to adopt exactly that, and we won't accept advancement because we're hanging onto the past.
2 months ago
Anonymous
improving an AK is just making an AR-15. the whole point of an AK is that they can be stamped out like cans of tuna 1,000,000 per day from a factory and that despite costing 2 dollars to make this way, they are good enough.
ar-15s are actually a lot easier to make, because you don't need such a big factory with dedicated machinery, but once you have the factory, AK's are nearly free. so improving an ak, adding milled parts, etc etc etc is just kind of missing the point.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>improving an AK is just making an AR-15
Nope, that piece of shit requires too much maintenance and lube. The only thing the AR had going for it was the selector switch placement, which had to be improved with short throw selectors anyway because the 90° and 180° throw can be short stroked. The charging handle placement sucks, the bolt release is pretty stupid, the buffer tube is thin hollow aluminum and easy to bend. The top rail was added later, and the AK12 has that, not that it meeded it because side mounts existed. Top rails were added to a lot of existing rifles, not unique to the AR. A lot of the comforts ARs have were added later, including adjustable stocks, none were unique to its initial design. The Russians never switched to a more comfy selector switch because thumb selectors don't work in extreme arctic cold.
Rifle is literally fine. Don't AR my AK.
2 months ago
Anonymous
AR-15s are extremely reliable and don't require any more maintenance than AK's do, and they're more accurate/easier to shoot well. which is why literally every department and agency and person with access to AR-15's uses them. you don't count because you don't actually use/need an assault rifle, you just have one to have one.
for someone that cares about guns more than necessary, i can see how that might be depressing, as we tend towards a world where there's only one single combat rifle. i don't give a shit.
ak's are fine but anyone who can get them uses AR's and as ak's get improved they just become a modded AR-15 and the worst of both worlds.
2 months ago
Anonymous
ARs are more functional than reheated WW2 leftovers like the AK and, being open-source, will always be more viable than proprietary guns like the AUG or SCAR, but they're so tedious to shoot that I honestly can't imagine why an individual would buy one, except out of a sense of obligation—"Well, I'm a gun person, I guess I ought to have an AR"
2 months ago
Anonymous
you buy an AR-15 because you want an assault rifle, and the AR-15 is the cheapest, best understood, and most proven assault rifle ever made. not to satisfy your vanity. all guns are tedious to shoot. shooting is boring. being a 'gun person' is cringe. they're killing tools and infantilizing them is bad. they're genuinely not cool, and people that treat them like a 'hobby' are making guns gay.
make sure your guns work, and that you can use them, keep them in good condition, stay stocked up, and don't talk about them or play with them. if katrina does happen to you it'll be worth it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>make sure you can use your guns—i.e., practice and train with them regularly >choose The Best Gun even if practicing with it feels like a second job that costs you money
Not all of us are superhumanly disciplined hoplite-monks like you, dude.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The AK wins general reliability due to the following facts.
- bolt carrier weight
- bolt overtravel distance after magazine
- a superior anti pre-engagement system for bolt turning lifted off of the Garand
- more substantial extractor
- fixed ejector
- bigger locking lugs with better balanced stresses
- camming extraction
- more robust magazines designed from the ground up with beefy feed lips and constant curvature
- more tapered cartridges (not inherent to the gun)
- rock lock magazine offering leverage to insert magazine
- pivoting magazine catch not freezing unlike a sliding one
- safety lever longer to offer more leverage when frozen etc.
- an order of magnitude of more space in the trigger pack
In comparison the AR is a finicky gun.
1 month ago
Anonymous
The AK has the best action ever put in a service rifle.
But the rest of the gun is extremely outdated, and there are basically no good modernizations available outside of the SIG. Even the Russians themselves fricked that up.
All the American AK market is interested in is spending $3000 on Zenitco parts to kludge onto their WASR.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Zenitco parts
That's literally all you need to modernize an AK.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Zenitco or comparable companies is what Aks need. The direction their military went was probably a result of internal corruption and cheaping out to pocket more cash.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>relic of the past
It's a contemporary to the AR. People piss and scream about how AKs are not as easily modernized and every company and their mother are now putting out railed dust covers, railed handguards, triggers, you name it for AKs. If I ever need to do shit in the dead of winter in Alaska/etc I'll be preferring the 5.56 Ak over the AR. different rifles for different situations.
2 months ago
Anonymous
According to Alaskan tests in the 50s, that's very accurate. The AR performed poorly under extreme torture tests while the best performing were AK derivatives and long stroke gas piston systems
2 months ago
Anonymous
Not an argument, just an ARgay butthurt that his grandpa gun sucks and will be replaced with something more space efficient once we have uncorrupt leadership...
ar-15's are good enough and cheap. they'll always be the standard for that reason.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The AK is the standard of the whole world for that reason. Most societies can't maintain it because as soon as a tiny pin breaks or a spring wears out, it's done. Even bending the buffer tube renders it useless, you can never bend it back true. These rifles require decent maintenance, you always have to feed them lube and maintain parts.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Not an argument. Support with evidence your assertion that conventional layout guns with wildly different control schemes like the MP5, AR, and AK can all peacefully coexist in a shooter's procedural memory, but something like an AUG is somehow a bridge too far.
The charging handle does charging handle stuff. The magazine release releases the magazine. The new magazine goes into the magazine well. The safety turns the gun on and off. The controls are in slightly different places, but any AR user who can learn to shoot an MP5 or AK can learn to shoot an AUG or something just as well.
>Having to learn a new manual of operations for bullpups is a real con that people (read, militaries) discuss being worth it for adoption of said rifles.
Good thing this decision does not apply to individuals then but to groups with institutional inertia. Not my problem
>Not my problem
As he screams "Why aren't bullpups adopted, REEEE"
2 months ago
Anonymous
Never did. I don't rely on a guns adoption to denote quality, just the opposite. Because average Joes get only average goods, including guns. Guns above average demand the same from the user, so that explains the b***hing ITT about training scars kek
I bet it takes less time to get used to the RM177 controls than it takes to get used to the XM7 recoil. And as an added bonus you can get used to the controls without even going to the range, while you can't experience full power 6.8 Common Cartridge without getting deployed to a combat zone. Sig's meme ammo is too expensive for practice so they have to use the crippled brass case hunting ammo at the range.
Funny thing about that too. There's this 6mm MAX cartridge now that's able to pull velocities you'd expect out a 20" barrel out a 10.5" barrel wile still using normal pressure. So now i'm wondering why SIG couldn't do that with their 6.8 round.
>We hold onto the AR15 because we're afraid of change
I don't think it's about being afraid of change, I think we've just reached peak "good enough" when it comes to intermediate caliber rifles. If you wanna throw .22 to .30 caliber projectiles out of a rifle we've pretty much got all that shit figured out. There's no reason to deviate from the M4/416 pattern because they do pretty much everything you need a rifle to do and any improvements are either too marginal to bother paying for or something that can easily be added to the rifle due to the modular design. Why bother with a bespoke design when the market is flooded with one particularly popular pattern that you can easily manufacture domestically? I don't think it's going to change until we take caseless or other alternative ammo seriously.
>any improvements [...] can easily be added to the rifle due to the modular design
Yeah man, just put a steel buffer tube and a PRS stock on the back and a pencil barrel and carbon fiber handguard up front and it'll balance almost as well as a stock AUG.
What pisses me off is the case tech is completely backwards compatible with existing guns but because are staff officers are a bunch of siggers we denied all our guys lighter, cheaper and more effective ammo
>P90 classed as a bullpup
On a tangent, my autistic gun fantasy I've always wanted to see is someone design a bullpup that also uses the p90 magazine and the kriss vector's recoil system.
The P90 is just a straight blowback AUG clone. There's no argument to be made for it not being a bullpup.
The Kriss Vector, and its recoil system, are arguably the exact opposite of a bullpup, since not only the magazine but every other part of the gun as well are out in front of the trigger. A P90 magazine Vector would probably end up being longer than an AR57.
It didn't
Definitely not as popular as a standard rifle layout.
Austrians use the aug
Croatia uses the vhs2/springfield helion.
Some other police/ military units use bulpups
Having better 556 balistics (longer barrel) in a shorter packige is very very appealing.
Nicer triggers are a good to have but they make trigger controll easyer to do, especially under stress.
Bullpups are a bit finicky to fieldstrip.
Still A 556 autoloading rifle is still just a 556 autoloading rifle. It is not going to make much difference if it meets some basic reliability, durability and accuracy criteria
just because there are a few people who practice this constantly at ranges, and there are people who shoot at people all the time occasionally landing one, and there are groups of 20 guys all shooting and eventually hitting one, sometimes, doesn't mean it's a feat that can be duplicated on a whim, anytime, anywhere.
which is why snipers are like the least common method of murder or assassination. sniping is literally the least reliable way to kill someone.
in actual practice, the average sniper shot, out of all sniper shots that have been taken in history to kill someone, is about 60 feet. yes. 60 feet. at 60 feet with a moment to set up, a sniper can reliably put a bullet through someones left eye.
in practice military snipers are not considered effective past 300 meters against a moving target, and effective doesn't mean 'always hits someone'. 500 meters against a stationary target. which is why they're not really much of a thing. at longer distances you'd just use machine guns, which CAN reliably kill someone at 1000m, like every time.
You're moronic and have never shot beyond 300yds in your life.
Top shooters can ding pretty consistently at 1k yards with 308, that number grows with 6.5sneedmore, and even more so with magnums and wildcats for non-top shooters.
Average engagement for mil snipers at least inna sandbox was between 150-600 yards even innacity.
Maybe you're thinking leo for that "60ft" bullshit number.
Beyond 600 yards was uncommon till the more mountainous regions in afghan, where cross valley shots could be around 600-1200 yards, these still had kills with 308(rarely beyond 800 yards), but primarily this is where the 300wm/338lm shined.
https://i.imgur.com/Am9lDlz.jpg
Why did bullpup weaponry fail to take off?
>awkward ergo >ugly(Besides wa2000 and for some weird reason I like the looks of the hellion, gives me killzone vibes) >trigger >new system entirely requiring a major change in training and logistics(same can be said for the xm7 to an extent) >literally the only benefit it provides is a shorter package for the same barrel length >most civies don't really pursue them, or if they do it's a safe queen unless they reallly like bullpups
Buddy has a Aug a3, and it's a nice rifle, but it's clunky, sucks to reload prone, and mushy ass trigger wall.
Once you ride the wall, it's still not a crisp break. >replace the trigger then!
Shouldn't have to buy a 320 dollar trigger pack for a 2800 dollar gun which at best matches a milspec ar trigger, period. When for that price you could have a very, very, gucci AR with an EXCELLENT trigger and barrel package. With 500 bucks to spare towards glass.
https://i.imgur.com/RstLy3L.jpg
Fudds and technophiles to this day despise the idea of an electronic trigger in firearms, which is the only improvement needed to make bullpups usable and good (as an inherently poor trigger is probably their only objectively true and valid criticism)
>wasted doubledubs on this moronic ass statement
tragic
>$2800 gun
How the frick do you spend $2800 on an AUG? They are going for $1500 regularly. You can also fix the trigger with a $100 Ratworx sear or a $120 AR drop in trigger pack.
As someone who has Gucci’d out my AUG, the trigger is much better than milspec
you right that was a mistype, meant $1800, that was the going price for the a3 last I checked, guess they've gone down. Sorry WFH and typing emails at the same time kek.
Thought the trigger packs were like 300 bucks, that's my mistake, guess the full ratworx drop in is around 230.
Still though, doesn't compare to a midend/highend ar trigger which is I guess my point.
I will say though, the trigger wasn't AS bad as I thought it was going to be, but still sucked.
I'm biased as I have really nice triggers in my bolt guns and ARs so what I'm used to kinda exasperated my ire with it.
The Ratworx drop-in pack is unobtanium, and was replaced by the Ratworx drop in sear which is functionally the same ($100-120). The real upgrade is a full AR drop in trigger pack. There were a couple people that made them, but right now Titus arms makes drop in packs for $120 on the low end.
My drop in pack is from Mooseycreatures. It was more expensive, but mine has a Timney AR trigger with a 4.5lb trigger pull. I have springs for a 3.5lb pull too. I would say with all the upgrades I’ve put into mine, it does compare to a mid-high end AR trigger
1 month ago
Anonymous
I prefer the 3.5lb on my timneys(prefer 2.5lb on my boltguns) and blitz primes personally for the ARs. I'd try that out and see how you enjoy it as it may actually be better for the bullpup feel than the 4.5lb but not sure how that might affect the wall in that configuration.
I'll shoot that moosey info to my buddy as he's been thinking of doing a replacement but can't remember if he has already done that or not.
pic unrelated to the bullpup side of the discussion but one of my precision rigs, too many noguns on /k/ these days.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Unfortunately mooseycreatures no longer makes the trigger packs. You might be able to talk to him about it though. I think it had something to do with Washington’s gun laws idk.
I would try out the Titus arms trigger packs though. They are very good too
>it does compare
I'd be amazed if it actually does. Physics is the force you need to fight with bullpups.
With the ARID trigger, and the mooseycreatures purple trigger, the pull is extremely short and crisp. There’s no plastic on plastic. All the components are metal and except for the actual firing pin cause AUG
1 month ago
Anonymous
Thanks for the advice, I'll forward that on anon.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>it does compare
I'd be amazed if it actually does. Physics is the force you need to fight with bullpups.
It's been a long time since I've touched an AUG, so I can't remember how it feels, but my single-stage milspec AR trigger feels miles better than my Tavor 7, which is apparently the best stock bullpup trigger.
That being said, if competition shooters can make rapid hits at 25 yards with a Glock, I can't imagine how bad you'd have to frick up a trigger to make a rifle a bad gun by itself. The "bullpups have bad triggers" cope is just another thing in the long list of bullshit people say to discredit the concept.
>Pull trigger on a conventional rifle >interacts directly with the hammer >pull trigger on a bullpup >you're actually pulling a bar which interacts with the hammer >People wonder why bullpup triggers are worse
Physics is rocket science.
Thus why some recommend electronic triggers like it's Halo. But as others pointed out, that's other complications like additional points of failure and a need for batteries. Oh well.
>electronic trigger
Definitely worse because of the introduction of complete failure without recovery. Analogous to that biometric shit states like NJ are trying to push.
I agree. It'd need some sci-fi excuse for there's some ultra reliable battery or energy flowing through at all times to avoid running out or otherwise becoming a non-functional weapon. But by the time we've developed some system for that, we might as well bypass triggers altogether with guns connecting to robot limbs or some shit. Besides just another way to mess up, it'll be another unnecessary thing to maintain and complication for whoever manufactured it. I bet the per-unit cost of that sort of system alone would disqualify it for selection competitions.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>by the time we've developed some system for that
Can't beat the coc- thermodynamics and physics.
2 months ago
Anonymous
But that would just be giving up electronic triggers. Which might get for the best until we get cybernetic limbs that can inject energy into the gun. Standard ones for conventional layouts are good enough.
I think it's because you need to transfer the pull more distance that it's harder to do well.
The presence of distance between the trigger and the sear does not imply that the trigger is bad, only if it is designed bad. The K and M Arms M17S specifically has a good trigger despite being a bullpup, because it was built that way. On the contrary, conventional guns can and do have bad triggers, despite lacking a need for transfer bars. They should have even less excuse
>the trigger itself isn't bad it's just the half a mile length of bar that needs to be pulled to release the hammer!
lmao, every post about bullpups is like a scam citizen cultist coping.
It feels like plastic on plastic because it is, but other than that bit of trigger snobbery it has just a touch of takeup and then rolls through the 1/8" of sear engagement to an indistinct but consistent and predictable break.
If you can shoot, it's not going to get in your way, as the 9-hole Reviews guys have repeatedly demonstrated.
too aesthetic. hurt the peasants and their generic ARs. honestly probably because when the inevitable mechanical disaster occurs, people don't want the gun exploding right next to their head. the chamber is at least in front in most guns. thanks GAYTF boomers for the legislation.
>an extra 4–6" of barrel length
For any cartridge, there's going to be a point where that's true—10.3" is as short as most people are willing to tolerate in 5.56, but 14.5–16" is practically the default option—and also an AR with its stock extended to a usable position is more like 8–10" longer than a bullpup with the same barrel length.
EM-2 has a peculiar striker trigger system, where striker and striker spring is in side the bolt, and striker is held from the front, thus reducing the length of trigger bar. Did someone tried to do something like that in other bullpups?
Bullpups don't do better enough jobs to replace conventionals as the "main". The quirks have yet to be ironed out and might never be. Some use them, others don't. I doubt they'll ever stop existing but it'll take time before humanity mass-converts to them.
Those who hate bullpup are 5"6 and therefore the gun is too big for them and the stock cant colapse, this is why they alway complain about ergonomics first
completely unrelated but this reminded me that they made a bigger elr rifle semi recently for shooting their .416
barrett guns are so moronic and expensive that they end up being kind of cool. who the frick comes up with this shit
Memes, pure and simple. The spectrum of bullpups is identical in function and reliability to the spectrum of ARs. Memes about terrible accuracy from the same people who think they have terrible ergonomics and whose grandfathers were screeching about the adoption of the M1 over the Springfield killed the concept for tons of people, but now that they're in the hands of more people the pendulum is swinging back towards them being cool
>the pendulum is swinging back towards them being cool
I played Metal Gear Solid at a formative so the FAMAS has pretty much been solidified as the coolest gun ever made.
I ended up buying an AUG though because there was so much legal frickery around braces on AR pistols that I didn't want to touch so I started looking at something compact with a 16" barrel which I think is probably the thought process of a lot of people that buy them.
Same reason I bought an aug, not disappointed. I bought the NATO mag version which in retrospect wasn't the right call, but I still like it. I've heard the NATO version has a worse trigger.
On the other hand it's very annoying to do certain things that are easy on ARs. C-Clamp grips, running a pressure pad for your light, etc.
The charging handle will scrape some attachments making it hard to use (i.e. eotech 552), has limited rail space compared to an AR.
Very difficult to fit BUIS, Pressure Pad, Larger optics (like mag + dot or lpvo), and then adding a PEQ would be very difficult. These are more problems with the Aug A3M1 but some other bullpups have these issues.
The AUG trigger is a tuning fork that runs back to the fire control components. On the NATO version they cut off one of the sides so there is only one point of contact with the hammer pack. It makes the trigger even squishier than the waffle mag one.
Also you can get AUG p-mags now for less than $20 on sale if you keep an eye out.
Man, this thing could have been great if they just made it not fire from an open bolt and use normal bullets instead of the stupid flechettes. At that point it would essentially be the Textron NGSW rifle but with a barrel length that doesn't require Bubba's Barrel Incinerator Deluxe ++P++ rounds and without the ejection port right where your support hand is supposed to go.
When they realize (again) how stupid battle rifles are, they'll probably give them a shot as part of the overcorrection process before settling on 5.56 necked down to .17 and running at 100kpsi (to get adequate ballistics out of the 8" barrel that it'll need to match the OAL of the carbine version of the XM7)
Funny thing about that too. There's this 6mm MAX cartridge now that's able to pull velocities you'd expect out a 20" barrel out a 10.5" barrel wile still using normal pressure. So now i'm wondering why SIG couldn't do that with their 6.8 round.
Ergonomics, shitty triggers, ugly.
This, + the performance gains are over-exaggerated as frick and in the case of a catastrophic failure it blows your head off. Memepups always have been and always will be a moronic fricking concept meant to impress no-gun politicians and homosexuals that spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
>in the case of a catastrophic failure it blows your head off
yeah
>anime poster
>moronic and incorrect opinion
pottery
>in the case of a catastrophic failure it blows your head off.
pics or that never happened
>what do you mean putting the receiver right next to your jugular and skull is a bad idea in case of a catastrophic failure?
Least moronic bullpup teenager.
>dude they just become a bomb just like I said
Anything other fantasy scenarios your hiding inside your ass or?
>catastrophic failures never happen bro, just don't worry about i- ACK!
?si=kcRYWRSQREHDgA4b&t=17
Thanks for confirming you're a no-guns homosexual, homosexual.
>dude all rifles are just like AR15 derivatives
Crazy how stupid you are lol.
RIP to anyone using an AR bullpup chassis tho lmao
>bullpups aren't subject to the laws of physics
This is so moronic i'll assume you're baiting.
>The assessment of the IDF is that the weaknesses of the Tavor are inherent in all bullpup designs.
That's been my point the entire time. Bullpups are the communist manifesto of the gun world; an inherently shit and flawed design dreamt up by some mongoloid pseud with 0 real world practical experience.
>dude physics
>posts a wojak
Youre unbelievably stupid bro.
>wojak posting
r/wojak lost bro
>conventionals are the communist manifesto of the gun world. Rabid fans still willing to double down on it despite its aged flawed reputation, insisting their version is the best example. And it's a SBR firing proof rounds trying to mimic its greatest competitor and polar opposite
This can't happen with the Textron NGSW/Steyr ACR action.
so you *don't* have any pictures of people being decapitated by catastrophic failures? you seem so confident about it, I assumed you have some evidence to support your ridiculous claim.
come on m8, GI Bruce, GI Pierre and GI Schlomo have been using these things for decades, if they're as dangerous as you say surely at least ONE grunt moron must have tried to larp as Roland by now.
I mean, unless you're just totally full of shit or something...
Really, not even one single rumor of someone in the past 40 years or so having their bullpup fail catastrophically enough for the blast to tear straight through the chamber walls into their face, and not just shearing the bolt lugs and venting out the magwell and ejection port like you'd expect? Just pure speculation?
It's kinda funny Kentucky ballistics released a video on this very subject today. Weird coincidence of space and time just to prove you wrong
And with a LELKEK as well, held it's shit well enough with the shit against it.
It's still soaring but its too over your head for you to notice.
>anime
Can't discard your opinion, I never even read it
>anime
it'd be wrong to say I ignored your opinion, because I never read it
>ARs are pipebombs
And this is an L for bullpups?
>Muh Ergo
Stop being left handed, it's not very Christ like. Triggers being shit was a big reason though.
different = bad
VHS2 fixes all of those problems
Is its trigger good though?
I cant recall whether it is or not.
>Is its trigger good though?
Yes
Its trigger is better than other bullpups but still not great.
Lipstick on a pig
Instead of jumping through a million hoops to make a fundamentally crappy design work as well as a mediocre gun, they should have just made a normal gun that doesn't suck balls
You
>Lipstick on a pig
we are talking about guns, not your mother anon
VHS2 has an awful trigger though, and the LoP goes from A1 stock to Jesus Christ what the frick and even at 6'1 does not feel good especially when using body armor. The bolt release is also stupid, and the bad G36 style charging handle is annoying to use in the cold with gloves. The fricking Tavor SAR is a more ergonomic rifle.
My mind is totally changed on the Hellion
>herein, "VHS2"
I've fricked around with every significant 5.56 bullpup on the US market (even the FS2000) and shot a couple (AUG and Tavor). I got to check out the VHS2 and AUGA3 back to back the other day.
First time checking out a VHS2 actually and I loved it. I've had a hard-on for the AUG since forever but I stopped thinking about it entirely since I played with the VHS2.
The only thing AUG has going for me now is nostalgia, which is very much a factor for me in my collection, but the VHS2 is just soooooooooooo nice
>made of happy meal plastic
>'fixes' the problem by making the stock moronicly long for anyone not wearing a t-shirt on the range
>Ugly
The scar, vector, mp7, and p90 all prove this wrong.
>Three non-bullpups and one bullpup
What did he mean by this?
Many such sad cases!
only one of them is a bullpup and all of those guns look sick af, except for the vector, it looks like a spergy neckbeards first gun
Are we talking about conventionals or what? What's the ergos of a front heavy musket with "milspec" mush and no unique design to the point of soullessness? All the things you mentioned are skill issues
>ergonomics
Too unskilled to train
>shitty triggers
Too unskilled to find one's with good triggers
>ugly
No skills can save bad taste
You ever shoot one? You ever own one? You ever keep up with current events. You’re a sad, strange little troony, but you don’t have my pity.
>ugly.
the only one that matters
Tavor, AUG, L5, etc.
Bullpups are more common than ever on the civilian market.
They're not aerodynamic enough
they seem pretty aerodynamic when i chuck them in the bin
What is the list of AUG users?
What is the list of Tavor users?
>inb4 they're being replaced because bullpup bad
No, the Augs are getting replaced because they're getting old and the 416 undercuts it and works better (granted the 416 outperforms just about everyone especially when you consider the price to performance ratio)
>but the israelites use M4s
Yeah they get them for free. They'd use rusty AKs if they got them free by the boatload
Israel is buying homegrown piston or DI ARs from local manufacturers (IWI, Emtan, Silver Shadow) to replace Tavor. It's not a question of money. They realized the entire bullpoop design is fricked from beginning to end.
This despite being involved in intense urban warfare with mechanized infantry, exactly where the bullpoop design was supposed to excel.
No they arent.
Keep repeating this bullshit.
The IDF specifically stated that the Tavor is here to stay and bought more.
Dumb Black person.
>lemme just make this more expensive and complicated for no reason. A’ight?
Can I get uuuuuuuh
>economy of scale
And a side order of uuuuuh
>noguns
Bullpups don't need to be better than the AR15 to replace it, they need to be substantially better and solve a problem the AR can't in order to get past the bias of 60 years of usage, logistics, etc. the AR has built up. The fact is if you already have an AR purchasing an Aug or similar is hard to justify.
Most of the historical issues with bullpups have been solved, maybe the triggers are still not as good but rails, ergonomics, etc.
There's very little proof the AR has inherently better ergos than the bullpup, in fact there was a study done that showed most people are more effective with a 16" bullpup than a 16" AR (James Reeves vid lol).
I like both the AR and Aug, imo bullpups are good for the US civilian market due to our SBR laws.
Getting an AR of comparable quality to a stock Aug already gets you close to the same price as a civilian, idk about the military. With economy of scale they'd probably cost a similar amount.
My God that's a lot of typing for that much stupidity
>There's very little proof the AR has inherently better ergos than the bullpup
Gun people don't know what "ergonomics" actually means, they just think it's a measure of how much like an AR a gun's user interface and user experience are.
At this point I'm convinced bullpup hatred is irrational tribalism and there's no point having a discussion with these people.
>Muh AR is perfect
The AR has been replaced. Get with the times, gramps.
What kind of ChatGPT ass ESL moron do you have to be to take that away from the post
I don't even understand what your point is. It seems like you're saying that it's impossible to move on from the AR platform because of decades of inertia, but there's currently 0 years of inertia because the AR was just replaced with something almost completely different.
>There's zero years of inertia because, after half a century of trying to replace the AR, they finally managed to replace it—with a piston AR that had an extra, AR-style charging handle added to it mid-development because it wasn't enough like an AR already
pfft
>Literally everything about it is changed except for the position of the safety, mag release, and charging handle, but it's still totally the exact same gun!
Who says anything about replacement? You seem fixated on the idea that a gun must be mass adopted by whoever just to be "good", instead of seeing the merits of the gun alone. On several counts the bullpup excels compared to conventional layouts, like compactness and ergonomics. The only limitation is the user(s).
Dawg they JUST made a new type of AUG.
Fudds and technophiles to this day despise the idea of an electronic trigger in firearms, which is the only improvement needed to make bullpups usable and good (as an inherently poor trigger is probably their only objectively true and valid criticism)
>DUDE, DUDE, DUDE!! A HECKIN' BULLPUP WITH AN ELECTRIC TRIGGER!! JUST LIKE IN MY HECKIN' STAR-WARS!!
I'll say it again, bullpups are for no-gun homosexuals who spend more time jerking off over excel spreadsheets of terminal ballistics, dreaming up their unique snowflake ultimate gun instead of actually shooting.
Whatever opinion you have is immediately invalidated through the attachment of a wojack. Even though I'd normally agree with you I am obligated to call you a moronic know nothing homosexual who should delete your brain's system 32
>that doesn't count because... it just doesn't, okay??
>an inherently poor trigger
Noguns please stop opinining when you have no fricking clue.
No, its not inherent and there are many that have objectively good triggers.
No. Its not a fricking valud criticism.
>objectively good trigger
Define this and provide an example of a bullpup that meets your criteria.
A good trigger, in this context, are superior to a milspec AR trigger.
After market tavor triggers are good, MDRX triggers are good out of the box, as are RDB triggers. I cant speak to the AUG with improved trigger components but they are reportedly good, Tavor T7 is reportedly good out of the box as well.
Don't forget the M17S and without some gimmicky e trigger. People always say guns like the AR and the Glock HAVE so much aftermarket. People never say WHY they do. Because they suck. True Perfection™ needs no improvement
I thought it was because patents expire or licensed copies get sold, some things are judged to be cost inefficient to make by some companies but not others, everyone wants ways to bring their gear, companies trying to sell you more product, or any of the other reasons.
Equally plausible but the point still stands. No one would buy an upgrade if the original part was fantastic by itself. For parts that didn't exist on the original gun, that's fair and has no relevance to this matter.
>Adding additional points of failure
>Adding battery requirements
Why
Because we need to embezzle more funds. It's not about effectiveness or even idiot proofing. It's about connections and profits.
>please drink verification can to unlock weapon
Is it not possible to design a two-stage trigger where the first stage is the electronic trigger, but continuing to pull into the second stage manually operates the trigger in the event of an electronics failure?
Yeah you could but why would you bother?
Good mechanical triggers are perfectly achievable in a bullpup.
I dont understand the fascination with electronic triggers in small arms.
It just strikes me that such a trigger might be a workable compromise between the:
>bullpups can't have a trigger that can be worked by a mouse fart REEEEEEEEE
and the
>what if my batteries die REEEEEE
crowds
Bullpups take one of the most simple mechanical properties and complicates it. Then tries to find solutions to a problem it itself created by its very design. Then people wonder why everyone shits on bullpups.
Well one of those isnt a valid complaint and the other is.
Your whole premise is that both of these kinds of b***hing are both valid. They arent.
Example A, a "complication" is a trigger bar.
Wow an insurmountable and unacceptable complication.
>Simple mechanism: Pull something so that it releases another object
>Complicated mechanism: pull something so it pulls something else so it releases another object, solutions needed to make the pull as fast as the firs thing
Feel free to continue using your bullpups, touting their supremacy, just stop being asspained that nobody wants to hear your squeaky wheel complaining that nobody wants your guns and tells you to frick off.
Yeah I will continue using them, along with my other conventional ARs and AKs
And Im not complain that no one wants to use them, which isnt true, only that bullpup haters primary gripes arent grounded in reality and primarily consist of some feels based homosexualry.
You dont have to like them, but why lie?
>wanting guns to be subject to cyber warfare
It's not that serious man
Come on man it's just a little wire to make the gun shoot, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man it's just a little motor for the wire to talk to, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man it's just a little chip to make the motor more precise, it's not gonna hurt nothin'
Come on man it's just a little computer to make the chip fail less, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man, it's just a little software to make the computer more efficient so your gun doesn't die mid-engagement, it's not gonna hurt nothin
Come on man we just need a little virus so the other guys guns stop working, wait why is it turning on us oh frick
Let's not
It is that serious, actually
whew, good thing we haven't incorporated electronics into our military trucks, ships, aircraft, munitions, surveillance, and communication systems, or else you might have a point!
>whataboutism
Thank you for your concession, noguns
>whataboutism
not what that word means, tourist
>pedant moron
Thank you for your concession, noguns
adhoms are the highest form of refutation
so where's the computer virus that turned on us and bricked all of our boats and drones? seems like a perfectly reasonable argument against electronic triggers.
>whataboutism, again
Thank you for your concession, nogu-
>instant response
Thank you for your concession, fed. You tell me.
Please come back to me when you figured out how to remotely hack into a fricking light switch.
died of cringe
its a bit disingenuous to say they didn't take off
What an ugly hunk of shit. Looks as unweildy as a californianized AR
They arent tho. Theyre uggo af but theyre way comfy.
I'll take your word for it
We already knew you couldn't afford it, no reason to announce the fact. Stick to Hi Points kid.
Looks absolutely gorgeous. The aesthetics are off the charts, though that front square hotbox looks like a pain to grab and the idea of a sight that far forward weirds me out a bit
If you're able to do so you can put red dots/holographics as far forward as you want, the reason we don't do it on ARs is that handguards drift more than receivers. You're super imposing the dot on the target so the farther forward you can put it the less it's shell will cover up.
suppressor does wonders for the aesthetics of this mongoloid clusterfrick of a gun, though i oddly like it
That might be the best looking thing KelTec has ever made.
The RDB survival is such a good gun if only it wasn't made by Keltec and it was an RDB. I actually quite wanted one of these couple years ago
contains excessive gayginess
We're talking about bullpups not your mother before your birth
Because Americans have no SOVL
Why is it that everyone talks about baller trigger upgrades and trigger bows but then when a bullpup needs that very same upgrade /k/ baby rages at the notion.
Bullpups are used by a few nations usually ones where urban combat is the norm and you need all the advantages within these tight spaces hence why bullpups are used. A standard layout standard length AR requires you to mount the stock on your shoulder in order to sweep a doorframe.
>muh mag is beehive me I can't reload qq
Training scars from standard layouts, simply drill the new ergos if you like the advantages bullpups give.
They need to remake action specifically for bullpup like TKB-22 and Steyr ACR. That solves ejection problems and makes bullpup even shorter.
Textrons NGSW action would be perfect if it was bullpup'd
The Textron NGSW-R would just be a needlessly complicated Steyr ACR. The -AR would be interesting since you could use pneumatics to eject forward while feeding backward, which eliminates the need for anything behind the chamber and would let you make a rifle with nearly 100% barrel length to OAL ratio.
Isn't that the rifle where they shoved the fricking ejection port where you would naturally hold a rifle with your off hand?
Yes, which is why bullpupping it would have been a good idea.
No, that'd be even dumber and worse
Yeah, worse because youd move the ejection port out of the hand guard. moron.
It's not actually any shorter though
>It's not actually any shorter though
But it is shorter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKB-022PM
>TKB-022PM
>Length 525 mm
>Barrel length 415 mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco_Type_86S
>Norinco Type 86S
>Length 667 mm
>Barrel length 438 mm
The AK is known for having long bolt overtravel for reliability. What I'm saying is that the action is not inherently shorter.
>long bolt overtravel
The AK bolt has 5" of overtravel? Where does it go?
Into your eye
It has approx 50mm of overtravel.
I figured. Still 70mm longer without overtravel.
The rest comes from bolt/bolt carrier length. In fact if you had a minimally short bolt carrier you could get the same overtravel and the same action length as the TKB-022PM which is why that system has never been and will never be used anywhere.
so its basically a break action single shot with a gas operated bullet loader.
>just make your service rifle more complicated than a belt fed machine gun
because the US never adopted one
go back in time and force Eugene stoner to make the AR-15 a bullpup if you want them to "succeed"
any other anon in this thread claiming any other reason is a moron
>trigger bad
Yet you replace your AR milspec with a geissele/larue
Curious
My glock is perfection too
>replaces everything
Can I drop in a Giselle trigger or Lorow trigger into a bullpup?
Yes, you thick lipped pavement ape.
I'm not so sure about that senpai.
Thats because youre a dumb Black person
https://geissele.com/super-sabra-trigger-pack-iwi-tavor-x95-rifles.html
Checkmate Jamal
And this removes that bar in the bullpup that naturally has to be there for the trigger to pull? Making it the equivalent of a glass break trigger on an AR? otherwise I wouldn't be asking about putting a Geissle trigger in there.
The bar usually gets replaced along with the trigger pack with an aluminum one because the tavor has a push trigger bar.
The best bullpups have a pull trigger bar, so the linkage bending is mitigated.
And yeah, the super sabra trigger is great.
Shouldn't all of the bits that affect the feel of the of the trigger be located before the linkage? Seems like in a properly built bullpup, the linkage should have as little effect on the trigger pull as the firing pin does.
The lightning bow for the X95 (separate from the actual trigger pack) makes the trigger have a clean break with no slop. Yet another thing that should have been atock on the gun from the factory.
The RDB trigger is honestly the best factory trigger I’ve ever shot
I just like it (:
I have other guns to rely on if shit really hits the fan, but I like it, it’s fun to shoot and the mag release is great.
Pretty accurate with sierra Match King 77grs too
>scope is worth 1.5x the cost of the gun
Based actually
Governments don't want to have to deal with paying attention to issuing left/right hand variations of weapons to specific people.
Yeah, just like the m16, so they put a brass deflector on it.
No one does this with bullpups btw.
tavor is a good gun. frick ya mudda
The RDB has been having some price drops and that's the only one I was considering but length of pull might be an issue for my manlet arms
Less of an issue here than with a more conventional rifle.
Take a full size AR with a silencer and hold it. Now do it with a tavor. It's a massive difference. If you think reloads are slower then you don't own a bullpup or have never attempted to train with it for even 15 minutes. All of the issues attributed to them are from people that have never trained with them for even a few minutes.
>B-b-but a 42" overall length front heavy rifle with a silencer isn't that big of a deal. It's way better than a 34" overall length bullpup with a silencer and with weight perfectly balanced in the center.
Shut the frick up moron
Bullpup can't be used ambidextrous.
So you can't lean on corners to the left, without exposing most of your body.
Of course you can, you just need to man up or find a ambi bullpup
Bullpup rifles haven't entirely failed to take off, but they're not as widely adopted as traditional designs for a few reasons:
Unfamiliar Ergonomics: The trigger sits further back on a bullpup, which can feel awkward to some shooters used to a more traditional layout. Controls like magazine release and firing mode selector might also be in different positions.
Left-handed Use: Some bullpups are less lefty-friendly due to the side charging handle or brass ejection location.
Weight Distribution:While bullpups can be shorter overall, placing the magazine behind the trigger can affect weight balance, especially with heavier ammo.
Mag Changes: Mag changes on some bullpups can be slower or more cumbersome due to the rearward magazine placement.
However, bullpups do have advantages:
Shorter OAL (Overall Length): This makes them easier to maneuver in tight spaces.
Potentially Improved Balance:Depending on the design, the weight distribution can be more centered for better handling.
Barrel Length:Maintain a longer barrel for better performance in a shorter overall rifle.
So, bullpups haven't necessarily failed, but they cater to a more specific preference. Militaries often have a conservative approach to adopting new firearms, and soldier familiarity with existing rifles plays a role. That said, bullpups are seeing increased use in some special forces and militaries worldwide, and some civilian shooters appreciate their advantages.
>bullpups are seeing increased use
FAMAS being phased out, replaced by full length rifle. AUG being phased out, replaced by a full length rifle. Tavor is a complete fricking failure, already replaced by full length rifles despite IDF leadership coping hard and buying more to save face. Not a single serious military on planet earth uses a bullpup, and they never will.
>famas
True, because the french destroyed their domestic small arms manufacturing, not because the FAMAS was a failure
>Aug
Lol wrong, try again, no New Zealand doesnt count lmao
>tavor is a failure
You said it yourself, they bought more tavors you dumb Black person. Keep coping.
The assessment of the IDF is that the weaknesses of the Tavor are inherent in all bullpup designs. It's not a failure any more than the AUG was or would have been.
They bought more today as part of emergency procurement for the war. Nobody is denying they're slated for replacement.
>theyre slated for replacement
They arent.
>FAMAS being phased out, replaced by full length rifle.
They're buying more 11.5" 416Fs than 16" ones—almost like they care more about having a shorter, handier rifle than other factors, even external and terminal ballistics.
Then why not an 11.5" FAMAS? 21" OAL kicks the shit out of the 416.
Because a bullpup can be short and handy while still having a 20" barrel.
Then shorter rifle should be handier. They obviously don't care about 20" ballistics.
A 20" FAMAS is already about the size of an MP5, so making it that much shorter would be pursuing diminishing returns. 11.5" 5.56 is a compromise only forced by conventional layout rifles; on a bullpup a barrel that short barely leaves you with enough room to put your support hand anywhere.
If I need performance of a 20" barrel, I'm going with a free float hand-guard.
There will never be a justification for this.
But I want to hit someone in the chest with 55 grains of lead going 3200 fps when they’re down the hall and I don’t need a free float hand guard to do it
The tooling was destroyed.
Austria, Ireland and Australia are gonna use the aug for the next two decades +, it's going no where and is the really only viable bullpup as much as this makes gaymas and smelion owners seethe
>frick you it's fun and makes big fireballs
Based
that thing is a cardinal sin
>Let's take the already bad bullpup concept and make it even worse
AKs are not meant to be bullpups.
how dare you slander the ingenuity of the brave defenders of Ukraiynie like this
dammit i want one.
Yes thay are.
"It's not what the US military uses, so it must be bad."
Neither on paper nor in practice is there anything fundamentally wrong with bullpups, and there's a lot fundamentally right with them that conventional rifles can't hope to match—they're shorter for any given barrel length/have more barrel for any given OAL, they're less fatiguing to shoot and manipulate due to their superior balance, magazine changes are better since the magwell is right there behind your wrist instead of out in front of your knuckles somewhere, etc.
Just looking at the gun and how it is to shoot, there's no practical reason to use a primitive, cumbersome, front-heavy pig of a gun like a SCAR or HK416 instead of a well thought-out, modern design like an AUG or Tavor.
>it's another "bullpup homosexuals go on schizobabble rant"
That's right bro, it's all a CONSPIRACY by GLOBALIST POTBELLYGOBLIN AR-15 manufacturers to keep da bullpup down, dog.
>better reloads
It's now obvious you've never even held a gun, much less fired one
They did everywhere other than America because if it's not an AR or an AR derivative, yanks have a panic attack.
Because they aren't great and the AR15 and derivatives have 30 years of aftermarket and improvements whilst a lot of bullpups get neglected.
>worlds weakest bait
>dumbasses still flock to this shit
I would say half of these are OP but /k/ is PrepHole levels of moronation nowadays
Millenials holding back technological advancement because we're the new boomers trying to hold onto the M14 which also stayed WAY past its time. We hold onto the AR15 because we're afraid of change and also moronic consoomers have like 20 of them and don't want them to become irrelevant, but it's inevitable. Wasn't even a good platform to begin with and that shows even more now.
Yoomers also caused this beauty to lose to the absolute POS that is the Sigstein Spearburg. Btw this thing has a switch that makes it go between open and closed bolt firing, so it's a machine gun and rifle in one package, and the ammo doesn't even get hot. It's by far the most advanced small arm in existence currently.
>ackshually millennials are to blame for why this radically different weapons platform that you need to relearn controls for didn't take off and why I couldn't make money I mean they couldn't make money
This post is very organic.
You learned the controls for one rifle, you can do it again. Given that any bullpup designed in the current year will necessarily bend the knee to the AR15 user interface everywhere it can, the only major concession your dumb ass will have to make is learning to put the magazine behind your wrist instead of in front of your knuckles.
>one rifle
Try 10 different rifles. If your post is earnest contrary to as I pointed out earlier (again, red flags for blaming an entire generation of people) then you can sit in the corner with the rest of the fudds crying boo hoo why didn't my shitty ideas take off.
>crying boo hoo why didn't my shitty ideas take off
Because morons don't like change
Change doesn't mean good dumbass
Stagnation is definitely bad dumbass. Change or die
Most gun owners have multiple different guns with different controls and don't have an issue with it. One set of soldiers might have training scars but that's not really the military's concern, it'll iron itself out fairly quickly and guarantee they claim to care but don't actually. They picked the Shig because of kickbacks. Thing has two fricking charging handles anyway, how moronic. I will never stop laughing at how dumb our country has become.
>different guns with different controls
We're not talking a paddle release vs a push button release. Having to learn a new manual of operations for bullpups is a real con that people (read, militaries) discuss being worth it for adoption of said rifles.
It has mostly the same controls except for the charging handle. Charging handle placement is a major flaw on the AR15 for both having to break cheek weld to use it and shitting gas straight up your nose.
Militaries aren't realistically losing men because of manual of arms hiccups, vast majority of engagements are at distance anyway. Stop it, that's a lame excuse to not adopt objectively better equipment.
I'm starting to recognize how disengenuous you "people" in these threads are.
Not an argument, just an ARgay butthurt that his grandpa gun sucks and will be replaced with something more space efficient once we have uncorrupt leadership...
>ARgay
Not an argument. I prefer the AK. Also no skin off my bones that your homosexual platform is dying while even AKs are having a resurgence.
I like AKs but because they're a relic of the past, seems modern designs cannot match the robustness and simplicity. That doesn't mean it's a high performing or comfortable to use gun. We have had chances to adopt exactly that, and we won't accept advancement because we're hanging onto the past.
improving an AK is just making an AR-15. the whole point of an AK is that they can be stamped out like cans of tuna 1,000,000 per day from a factory and that despite costing 2 dollars to make this way, they are good enough.
ar-15s are actually a lot easier to make, because you don't need such a big factory with dedicated machinery, but once you have the factory, AK's are nearly free. so improving an ak, adding milled parts, etc etc etc is just kind of missing the point.
>improving an AK is just making an AR-15
Nope, that piece of shit requires too much maintenance and lube. The only thing the AR had going for it was the selector switch placement, which had to be improved with short throw selectors anyway because the 90° and 180° throw can be short stroked. The charging handle placement sucks, the bolt release is pretty stupid, the buffer tube is thin hollow aluminum and easy to bend. The top rail was added later, and the AK12 has that, not that it meeded it because side mounts existed. Top rails were added to a lot of existing rifles, not unique to the AR. A lot of the comforts ARs have were added later, including adjustable stocks, none were unique to its initial design. The Russians never switched to a more comfy selector switch because thumb selectors don't work in extreme arctic cold.
Rifle is literally fine. Don't AR my AK.
AR-15s are extremely reliable and don't require any more maintenance than AK's do, and they're more accurate/easier to shoot well. which is why literally every department and agency and person with access to AR-15's uses them. you don't count because you don't actually use/need an assault rifle, you just have one to have one.
for someone that cares about guns more than necessary, i can see how that might be depressing, as we tend towards a world where there's only one single combat rifle. i don't give a shit.
ak's are fine but anyone who can get them uses AR's and as ak's get improved they just become a modded AR-15 and the worst of both worlds.
ARs are more functional than reheated WW2 leftovers like the AK and, being open-source, will always be more viable than proprietary guns like the AUG or SCAR, but they're so tedious to shoot that I honestly can't imagine why an individual would buy one, except out of a sense of obligation—"Well, I'm a gun person, I guess I ought to have an AR"
you buy an AR-15 because you want an assault rifle, and the AR-15 is the cheapest, best understood, and most proven assault rifle ever made. not to satisfy your vanity. all guns are tedious to shoot. shooting is boring. being a 'gun person' is cringe. they're killing tools and infantilizing them is bad. they're genuinely not cool, and people that treat them like a 'hobby' are making guns gay.
make sure your guns work, and that you can use them, keep them in good condition, stay stocked up, and don't talk about them or play with them. if katrina does happen to you it'll be worth it.
>make sure you can use your guns—i.e., practice and train with them regularly
>choose The Best Gun even if practicing with it feels like a second job that costs you money
Not all of us are superhumanly disciplined hoplite-monks like you, dude.
The AK wins general reliability due to the following facts.
- bolt carrier weight
- bolt overtravel distance after magazine
- a superior anti pre-engagement system for bolt turning lifted off of the Garand
- more substantial extractor
- fixed ejector
- bigger locking lugs with better balanced stresses
- camming extraction
- more robust magazines designed from the ground up with beefy feed lips and constant curvature
- more tapered cartridges (not inherent to the gun)
- rock lock magazine offering leverage to insert magazine
- pivoting magazine catch not freezing unlike a sliding one
- safety lever longer to offer more leverage when frozen etc.
- an order of magnitude of more space in the trigger pack
In comparison the AR is a finicky gun.
The AK has the best action ever put in a service rifle.
But the rest of the gun is extremely outdated, and there are basically no good modernizations available outside of the SIG. Even the Russians themselves fricked that up.
All the American AK market is interested in is spending $3000 on Zenitco parts to kludge onto their WASR.
>Zenitco parts
That's literally all you need to modernize an AK.
Zenitco or comparable companies is what Aks need. The direction their military went was probably a result of internal corruption and cheaping out to pocket more cash.
>relic of the past
It's a contemporary to the AR. People piss and scream about how AKs are not as easily modernized and every company and their mother are now putting out railed dust covers, railed handguards, triggers, you name it for AKs. If I ever need to do shit in the dead of winter in Alaska/etc I'll be preferring the 5.56 Ak over the AR. different rifles for different situations.
According to Alaskan tests in the 50s, that's very accurate. The AR performed poorly under extreme torture tests while the best performing were AK derivatives and long stroke gas piston systems
ar-15's are good enough and cheap. they'll always be the standard for that reason.
The AK is the standard of the whole world for that reason. Most societies can't maintain it because as soon as a tiny pin breaks or a spring wears out, it's done. Even bending the buffer tube renders it useless, you can never bend it back true. These rifles require decent maintenance, you always have to feed them lube and maintain parts.
Not an argument. Support with evidence your assertion that conventional layout guns with wildly different control schemes like the MP5, AR, and AK can all peacefully coexist in a shooter's procedural memory, but something like an AUG is somehow a bridge too far.
The charging handle does charging handle stuff. The magazine release releases the magazine. The new magazine goes into the magazine well. The safety turns the gun on and off. The controls are in slightly different places, but any AR user who can learn to shoot an MP5 or AK can learn to shoot an AUG or something just as well.
>Having to learn a new manual of operations for bullpups is a real con that people (read, militaries) discuss being worth it for adoption of said rifles.
Good thing this decision does not apply to individuals then but to groups with institutional inertia. Not my problem
>Not my problem
As he screams "Why aren't bullpups adopted, REEEE"
Never did. I don't rely on a guns adoption to denote quality, just the opposite. Because average Joes get only average goods, including guns. Guns above average demand the same from the user, so that explains the b***hing ITT about training scars kek
>relearn controls
have a nice day you fricking mouth breathing moron
I bet it takes less time to get used to the RM177 controls than it takes to get used to the XM7 recoil. And as an added bonus you can get used to the controls without even going to the range, while you can't experience full power 6.8 Common Cartridge without getting deployed to a combat zone. Sig's meme ammo is too expensive for practice so they have to use the crippled brass case hunting ammo at the range.
Don't forget you can't use any of SIG's case tech in any other gun
Funny thing about that too. There's this 6mm MAX cartridge now that's able to pull velocities you'd expect out a 20" barrel out a 10.5" barrel wile still using normal pressure. So now i'm wondering why SIG couldn't do that with their 6.8 round.
>We hold onto the AR15 because we're afraid of change
I don't think it's about being afraid of change, I think we've just reached peak "good enough" when it comes to intermediate caliber rifles. If you wanna throw .22 to .30 caliber projectiles out of a rifle we've pretty much got all that shit figured out. There's no reason to deviate from the M4/416 pattern because they do pretty much everything you need a rifle to do and any improvements are either too marginal to bother paying for or something that can easily be added to the rifle due to the modular design. Why bother with a bespoke design when the market is flooded with one particularly popular pattern that you can easily manufacture domestically? I don't think it's going to change until we take caseless or other alternative ammo seriously.
>any improvements [...] can easily be added to the rifle due to the modular design
Yeah man, just put a steel buffer tube and a PRS stock on the back and a pencil barrel and carbon fiber handguard up front and it'll balance almost as well as a stock AUG.
What pisses me off is the case tech is completely backwards compatible with existing guns but because are staff officers are a bunch of siggers we denied all our guys lighter, cheaper and more effective ammo
>we denied all our guys lighter, cheaper and more effective ammo
It's not but ok
You keep saying that but how much more effective is it?
>pure vaporware that was totally the best gun ever based on 0 information
here, let me fix that for you.
>P90 classed as a bullpup
On a tangent, my autistic gun fantasy I've always wanted to see is someone design a bullpup that also uses the p90 magazine and the kriss vector's recoil system.
Is it moronic? I don't care.
The P90 is just a straight blowback AUG clone. There's no argument to be made for it not being a bullpup.
The Kriss Vector, and its recoil system, are arguably the exact opposite of a bullpup, since not only the magazine but every other part of the gun as well are out in front of the trigger. A P90 magazine Vector would probably end up being longer than an AR57.
I like those L85 and EM2. The P90 reminds me of the APS.
It didn't
Definitely not as popular as a standard rifle layout.
Austrians use the aug
Croatia uses the vhs2/springfield helion.
Some other police/ military units use bulpups
Having better 556 balistics (longer barrel) in a shorter packige is very very appealing.
Nicer triggers are a good to have but they make trigger controll easyer to do, especially under stress.
Bullpups are a bit finicky to fieldstrip.
Still A 556 autoloading rifle is still just a 556 autoloading rifle. It is not going to make much difference if it meets some basic reliability, durability and accuracy criteria
off-hand controls with no noticeable ballistic advantage
OP is a homosexual that needs to be on the 1000m receiving end of picrel.
1000 meter shots are basically impossible.
just because there are a few people who practice this constantly at ranges, and there are people who shoot at people all the time occasionally landing one, and there are groups of 20 guys all shooting and eventually hitting one, sometimes, doesn't mean it's a feat that can be duplicated on a whim, anytime, anywhere.
which is why snipers are like the least common method of murder or assassination. sniping is literally the least reliable way to kill someone.
in actual practice, the average sniper shot, out of all sniper shots that have been taken in history to kill someone, is about 60 feet. yes. 60 feet. at 60 feet with a moment to set up, a sniper can reliably put a bullet through someones left eye.
in practice military snipers are not considered effective past 300 meters against a moving target, and effective doesn't mean 'always hits someone'. 500 meters against a stationary target. which is why they're not really much of a thing. at longer distances you'd just use machine guns, which CAN reliably kill someone at 1000m, like every time.
You're moronic and have never shot beyond 300yds in your life.
Top shooters can ding pretty consistently at 1k yards with 308, that number grows with 6.5sneedmore, and even more so with magnums and wildcats for non-top shooters.
Average engagement for mil snipers at least inna sandbox was between 150-600 yards even innacity.
Maybe you're thinking leo for that "60ft" bullshit number.
Beyond 600 yards was uncommon till the more mountainous regions in afghan, where cross valley shots could be around 600-1200 yards, these still had kills with 308(rarely beyond 800 yards), but primarily this is where the 300wm/338lm shined.
>awkward ergo
>ugly(Besides wa2000 and for some weird reason I like the looks of the hellion, gives me killzone vibes)
>trigger
>new system entirely requiring a major change in training and logistics(same can be said for the xm7 to an extent)
>literally the only benefit it provides is a shorter package for the same barrel length
>most civies don't really pursue them, or if they do it's a safe queen unless they reallly like bullpups
Buddy has a Aug a3, and it's a nice rifle, but it's clunky, sucks to reload prone, and mushy ass trigger wall.
Once you ride the wall, it's still not a crisp break.
>replace the trigger then!
Shouldn't have to buy a 320 dollar trigger pack for a 2800 dollar gun which at best matches a milspec ar trigger, period. When for that price you could have a very, very, gucci AR with an EXCELLENT trigger and barrel package. With 500 bucks to spare towards glass.
>wasted doubledubs on this moronic ass statement
tragic
>$2800 gun
How the frick do you spend $2800 on an AUG? They are going for $1500 regularly. You can also fix the trigger with a $100 Ratworx sear or a $120 AR drop in trigger pack.
As someone who has Gucci’d out my AUG, the trigger is much better than milspec
you right that was a mistype, meant $1800, that was the going price for the a3 last I checked, guess they've gone down. Sorry WFH and typing emails at the same time kek.
Thought the trigger packs were like 300 bucks, that's my mistake, guess the full ratworx drop in is around 230.
Still though, doesn't compare to a midend/highend ar trigger which is I guess my point.
I will say though, the trigger wasn't AS bad as I thought it was going to be, but still sucked.
I'm biased as I have really nice triggers in my bolt guns and ARs so what I'm used to kinda exasperated my ire with it.
The Ratworx drop-in pack is unobtanium, and was replaced by the Ratworx drop in sear which is functionally the same ($100-120). The real upgrade is a full AR drop in trigger pack. There were a couple people that made them, but right now Titus arms makes drop in packs for $120 on the low end.
My drop in pack is from Mooseycreatures. It was more expensive, but mine has a Timney AR trigger with a 4.5lb trigger pull. I have springs for a 3.5lb pull too. I would say with all the upgrades I’ve put into mine, it does compare to a mid-high end AR trigger
I prefer the 3.5lb on my timneys(prefer 2.5lb on my boltguns) and blitz primes personally for the ARs. I'd try that out and see how you enjoy it as it may actually be better for the bullpup feel than the 4.5lb but not sure how that might affect the wall in that configuration.
I'll shoot that moosey info to my buddy as he's been thinking of doing a replacement but can't remember if he has already done that or not.
pic unrelated to the bullpup side of the discussion but one of my precision rigs, too many noguns on /k/ these days.
Unfortunately mooseycreatures no longer makes the trigger packs. You might be able to talk to him about it though. I think it had something to do with Washington’s gun laws idk.
I would try out the Titus arms trigger packs though. They are very good too
With the ARID trigger, and the mooseycreatures purple trigger, the pull is extremely short and crisp. There’s no plastic on plastic. All the components are metal and except for the actual firing pin cause AUG
Thanks for the advice, I'll forward that on anon.
>it does compare
I'd be amazed if it actually does. Physics is the force you need to fight with bullpups.
Such a beaut
But imagine if it was the squad automatic!
Reminder that we're being raided right now.
you're a paranoid hypocrite that spends so much time on the computer your sensibilities have been eroded.
Velocity at CQB ranges is fine from a carbine
And when you step outside of the shoot house and have to take a 400 yard shot down the length of Hogan's Alley?
Kentucky windage if needed, like any crayon eater sliming their way to rifle expert did.
>adopted by several major nations including several NATO countries
>fail to take off
fym?
shitty triggers
>the "muh bent buffer tube" AK schizotard derailed a bullpup thread
Is "bullpups have shit triggers" meme true? I've heard AUG triggers is comparable to AR15 milspec triggers.
Milspec AR isn't actually all that bad if they're only that level
Never handled a bullpup in my life though
It's been a long time since I've touched an AUG, so I can't remember how it feels, but my single-stage milspec AR trigger feels miles better than my Tavor 7, which is apparently the best stock bullpup trigger.
That being said, if competition shooters can make rapid hits at 25 yards with a Glock, I can't imagine how bad you'd have to frick up a trigger to make a rifle a bad gun by itself. The "bullpups have bad triggers" cope is just another thing in the long list of bullshit people say to discredit the concept.
I think it's because you need to transfer the pull more distance that it's harder to do well.
>Pull trigger on a conventional rifle
>interacts directly with the hammer
>pull trigger on a bullpup
>you're actually pulling a bar which interacts with the hammer
>People wonder why bullpup triggers are worse
Physics is rocket science.
Thus why some recommend electronic triggers like it's Halo. But as others pointed out, that's other complications like additional points of failure and a need for batteries. Oh well.
>electronic trigger
Definitely worse because of the introduction of complete failure without recovery. Analogous to that biometric shit states like NJ are trying to push.
I agree. It'd need some sci-fi excuse for there's some ultra reliable battery or energy flowing through at all times to avoid running out or otherwise becoming a non-functional weapon. But by the time we've developed some system for that, we might as well bypass triggers altogether with guns connecting to robot limbs or some shit. Besides just another way to mess up, it'll be another unnecessary thing to maintain and complication for whoever manufactured it. I bet the per-unit cost of that sort of system alone would disqualify it for selection competitions.
>by the time we've developed some system for that
Can't beat the coc- thermodynamics and physics.
But that would just be giving up electronic triggers. Which might get for the best until we get cybernetic limbs that can inject energy into the gun. Standard ones for conventional layouts are good enough.
The presence of distance between the trigger and the sear does not imply that the trigger is bad, only if it is designed bad. The K and M Arms M17S specifically has a good trigger despite being a bullpup, because it was built that way. On the contrary, conventional guns can and do have bad triggers, despite lacking a need for transfer bars. They should have even less excuse
>the trigger itself isn't bad it's just the half a mile length of bar that needs to be pulled to release the hammer!
lmao, every post about bullpups is like a scam citizen cultist coping.
No wonder learning to use a bullpup is so hard for conventioBlack folk, can't even lrn2read
It feels like plastic on plastic because it is, but other than that bit of trigger snobbery it has just a touch of takeup and then rolls through the 1/8" of sear engagement to an indistinct but consistent and predictable break.
If you can shoot, it's not going to get in your way, as the 9-hole Reviews guys have repeatedly demonstrated.
Are bullpup PKMs any better than regular?
They suck.
They make them even worse today.
Trigger snobbery is the gateway into becoming neo-fudd and it shows in this thread.
>bullpup fudd still screaming about muh progress
too aesthetic. hurt the peasants and their generic ARs. honestly probably because when the inevitable mechanical disaster occurs, people don't want the gun exploding right next to their head. the chamber is at least in front in most guns. thanks GAYTF boomers for the legislation.
Because nobody actually bothered testing to see if an extra 4-6 inches of barrel length were worth comprising almost everything else on the gun.
>an extra 4–6" of barrel length
For any cartridge, there's going to be a point where that's true—10.3" is as short as most people are willing to tolerate in 5.56, but 14.5–16" is practically the default option—and also an AR with its stock extended to a usable position is more like 8–10" longer than a bullpup with the same barrel length.
EM-2 has a peculiar striker trigger system, where striker and striker spring is in side the bolt, and striker is held from the front, thus reducing the length of trigger bar. Did someone tried to do something like that in other bullpups?
Bullpups don't do better enough jobs to replace conventionals as the "main". The quirks have yet to be ironed out and might never be. Some use them, others don't. I doubt they'll ever stop existing but it'll take time before humanity mass-converts to them.
Those who hate bullpup are 5"6 and therefore the gun is too big for them and the stock cant colapse, this is why they alway complain about ergonomics first
I kind of like them, small and compact.
>if Amazon sold guns
I think the Bullpups debate is a lot the metric system in that it's more of a "american vs european" thing then anything else.
right, because bullpup designs are such an uncommon sight in the US
Right, like the completely run-of-the-mill Barrett M95 that you see every day.
completely unrelated but this reminded me that they made a bigger elr rifle semi recently for shooting their .416
barrett guns are so moronic and expensive that they end up being kind of cool. who the frick comes up with this shit
Americans break out in hives when they touch a rifle that doesn't at least resemble an AR-15.
Ruger 10/22 is one of the most commonly sold rifles in the US.
>thread with both bullpup AND AK cope in spades
ARs cannot stop winning
Memes, pure and simple. The spectrum of bullpups is identical in function and reliability to the spectrum of ARs. Memes about terrible accuracy from the same people who think they have terrible ergonomics and whose grandfathers were screeching about the adoption of the M1 over the Springfield killed the concept for tons of people, but now that they're in the hands of more people the pendulum is swinging back towards them being cool
Why is your Tavor uncircumcised?
>the pendulum is swinging back towards them being cool
I played Metal Gear Solid at a formative so the FAMAS has pretty much been solidified as the coolest gun ever made.
I ended up buying an AUG though because there was so much legal frickery around braces on AR pistols that I didn't want to touch so I started looking at something compact with a 16" barrel which I think is probably the thought process of a lot of people that buy them.
Same reason I bought an aug, not disappointed. I bought the NATO mag version which in retrospect wasn't the right call, but I still like it. I've heard the NATO version has a worse trigger.
On the other hand it's very annoying to do certain things that are easy on ARs. C-Clamp grips, running a pressure pad for your light, etc.
The charging handle will scrape some attachments making it hard to use (i.e. eotech 552), has limited rail space compared to an AR.
Very difficult to fit BUIS, Pressure Pad, Larger optics (like mag + dot or lpvo), and then adding a PEQ would be very difficult. These are more problems with the Aug A3M1 but some other bullpups have these issues.
I am looking at an AUG and was siding with the NATO just because I have so many ar mags, should I go the waffle route?
The AUG trigger is a tuning fork that runs back to the fire control components. On the NATO version they cut off one of the sides so there is only one point of contact with the hammer pack. It makes the trigger even squishier than the waffle mag one.
Also you can get AUG p-mags now for less than $20 on sale if you keep an eye out.
No
Get with the times, grandma. Pic related is the only downside, but anyone with an SBR already suffers from it (plus a fireball)
HONESTLY WE SHOULD GO BACK TO MATCHLOCK ARQUEBUSES
Honestly I fully agree. Been thinking of getting one of the Veteran Arms repros because they just look so cool
You ever just get mad at something, reply to it without thinking and say something absolutely moronic as a result?
Absolutely.
I have a great argument in my head, but the second I get pissed off I type/say the stupidest shit imaginable and I kill it for myself.
True Velocity my beloved
I want a WLVRN so bad
Im planning on picking one up.
Really competitive with the SCAR 17.
It didn't. Many countries have adopted it. The IDF dropped the M4 for the Tavor.
People are too lazy to learn a different platform, want to use what the military uses, or cant afford them because all the good ones are 1500+
You now remember the ACR program from the 80s. Would a bullpup be a good contestant?
Besides pic. I know pic exists.
Man, this thing could have been great if they just made it not fire from an open bolt and use normal bullets instead of the stupid flechettes. At that point it would essentially be the Textron NGSW rifle but with a barrel length that doesn't require Bubba's Barrel Incinerator Deluxe ++P++ rounds and without the ejection port right where your support hand is supposed to go.
Flechettes are a cool idea we should pick up again because i'm pretty sure we have the technology to make them work now.
When they realize (again) how stupid battle rifles are, they'll probably give them a shot as part of the overcorrection process before settling on 5.56 necked down to .17 and running at 100kpsi (to get adequate ballistics out of the 8" barrel that it'll need to match the OAL of the carbine version of the XM7)
Like i said here
you don't even need the high pressure to do that.
Yeah, but why would the Army go and do something sensible like that?