If you're goose hunting a 10ga is superior to a 12ga. For everything else it's just a big heavy pig that shoots expensive shells. Fun to shoot? Sure, but not practical.
Yeah there's very specific bird hunting cases where 10ga is superior, but even then 3.5 inch 12ga is usually nearly as good. It's just so niche as to be relegated to a rarity
Because it's about as big as military smoothbore guns of the Napoleonic era (or slightly smaller), and is good for everything. Back in the past, when casting your own slugs and shot was necessary, people prefered 16 gauge, because it was roughly similar in size and capabilities, but more cost-effective, and as industrial development kicked in, the factories have started kicking out lots of decent factory loads and factory projectiles, not to mention that lead got cheap.
>Back in the past, when casting your own slugs and shot was necessary, people prefered 16 gauge
er..that really depends on location. 16ga was rare in England and in the USA, generally speaking. It did have a brief resurgence in popularity in the US decades ago, for example the Auto-5 "sweet 16", but that was long after the era were people were casting their own shot. Back then 16ga was only popular in continental Europe.
Well, that's my hypothesis. Here in Russia, the 12 gauge got upper hand over 16 and smaller only after WWII. Until then 16 gauge was more present and even more present were 32 and 28 G (because of tsarist and soviet programms of rebuilding flawed army rifles into affordable hunting tools).
>Here in Russia
A Russian on /k/ with decent English, cares about guns and doesn't spend all his energy screeching kokhol? Supremely suspicious but also impressive
High education and getting tired of politics. Trying to be chill for most of time.
Found a cool old guy telling a couple of stories about fur hunting back in soviet times. Damn, they used to sell smoothbores in the shop next to various farming tools.Though the truly fun stuff was obviously scarce.
tell putin to get fricked for ending the paradox/lancaster bore funny stuff
7 months ago
Anonymous
I'm angry that he won't let us have rifles as soon as we'd love to.
7 months ago
Anonymous
what is it now, basic smooth bore, advanced smoothbore after 3 and rifle after 5 no?
7 months ago
Anonymous
Kinda like that. I'm not willing to stop for pseudorifles. I know what I want and I may save enough money for it, BUT. But that pesky 5 years limit. As if morons wouldn't show their stupidity and violate the law earlier.
Well, the migratory gamebird treaty act of 1918 outlawed hunting with anything larger than a 10ga. Improvements in wad technology and the invention of the 3" 12ga shell meant that it was nearly as good as a 10ga for those larger payloads. The 10ga would be even more dead than it is today except it got a bit of a 2nd wind with more recent bans on lead shot. The cheap replacement for lead, steel, is less dense so you need a larger shell to carry the same weight shot.
And while a 12ga may not pattern as well with lighter loads or be as easy to carry compared to smaller gauge guns it is good enough for most applications for most people. Dedicated skeet shooters and people hunting upland game where they walk a lot still use smaller gauges often.
>Common shotgun gauges are 10-gauge, 12-gauge, 16-gauge, 20-gauge, and 28-gauge. The smaller the gauge number, the larger the shotgun bore. Gauge is determined by the number of lead balls of size equal to the approximate diameter of the bore that it takes to weigh one pound. For example, it would take 12 lead balls with the same diameter as a 12-gauge shotgun bore to weigh one pound. Today, however, gauge can be measured much the same way as caliber, by measuring the inside bore diameter.
Your reading comprehension is terrible.
First the law banned anything larger than 10ga. Then, later, it fell out of favor when modernized 12ga (better wads, 3in and 3.5 in) shells could do the same job.
The brown beast was 12ga. The French musket (charleville?) was 16ga. Between battlefield pickups and surplus they became the standards in regions in which they were employed.
>69" bore diameter
Charleville shot a much smaller ball than that, much closer to 16ga. Similarly for the Bess, it shot a 12 ball, but to improve resistance to fouling it used a larger bore than the projectile. Both sides "solved" the gas blowby problem by using a lot more powder.
Once breech loading shotguns and their cartridges were invented, then the bore of new 12ga shotgun barrels was reduced because powder fouling was no longer really an issue.
There was no constant barrel bore diameter back then. Manufacturing capabilities didn't allow for it, and larger bore diameters allowed easier firing of multiple shots on a days hunt without having to clean the bore. But there was a standard 12 ball.
7 months ago
Anonymous
When are you talking about specifically?
In England in 1813 an act of parliament established proof rules, and this copy (from the 1834 book The Gun by W. Greener) shows a chart of diameters where it gives 12ga as 0.738". The official rules from 1888 as seen in his son's book, The Gun and Its Development by W. W. Greener, gives 12ga as 0.729
7 months ago
Anonymous
Jumping in here: Current production 12 guage shotguns have a wide range of bore diameters, from around .724 all the way to .770. I think Benelli barrels are .724 or .726, many Berettas use a tapered bore of varying diameter from forcing cone to choke (I think their DT-11 starts at .800!), Remington is .728-.730, Winchester and Browning are .740, and some 3 1/2" chambered 12ga Mossberg barrels are .770 - which is basically 10ga. There's evidence for and against using "overbored" barrels to achieve more consistent shot patterns. Some companies think they do, while others don't. (The same goes for forcing cone length and choke geometries.) In my personal experience patterning guns I own, I think that - all things being equal - an overbored barrel with matching choke geometries does pattern better and decreases the length of the shot string.
This isn't only important for lead shot. Voluminous (heavy) loads, larger lead shot, steel and tungsten shot don't compress as well as smaller loads of lead shot. Larger bore diameters allow better patterns for large steel shot and heavy large steel shot loads in particular, which is why Mossberg has 3 1/2" 12ga barrels bored to 10ga diameters. An old but excellent book on a lot of this is Bob Brister's Shotgunning: The Art and the Science.
7 months ago
Anonymous
What do you think about bismuth?
7 months ago
Anonymous
It's fine, it works. It behaves similar to lead in and out of the bore. I like it for hunting close-in ducks with a 28ga.
So would overbored barrels make tight chokes work with steel without the overpressure issues that normally make that a bad idea?
Yes and no. So, the diameter of change for choke from, say imp. cylinder to modified, or from modified to full doesn't change. IC to Mod is still 0.010", Mod to Full is still 0.015" (unless you're Remington, in which case Mod to Full is a 0.010" change, I believe). With big steel, it's not so much overpressure as it is throwing your pattern off and peening your choke tube threads. What an overbore allows is for both slightly more choke, say Imp Mod ("Light Full" if you're Ithaca), and to get better patterns at less constriction thus negating a tighter choke. However, you won't see much change if your steel shot is already deformed like the cheap Winchester Xpert stuff. The most benefit is seen in uniform steel, like the Win Double-X and Federal Speed-Shok.
[...]
I've met a fellow old-british-gun enthusiast who has an double that started life as a 10 bore, but has been chamber-sleeved down to 12 at some point in the 130 years, and he swears by it, says it throws the best patterns he's ever seen. Of course, I've also met another guy who says the same thing about his full and fuller choked 16 bore with 1oz loads
There are a lot of variables to great patterns. The added heft of the 10ga may fit that shooter better. The 16ga could have nice long forcing cones, or the magic choke transition zone, or he just knows that gun well. There are some old 12ga doubles with bores as tight as .719! Yet, with the old school 1oz to 3/4oz 12ga loads from the late 1800s they have no trouble taking pheasants and grouse. If it works, it works. Some expensive Italian brands have tight bores as standard, and they're still found afield around the world.
But, Olympic shooters around the globe almost all have guns with bores above .730" - custom Perazzis (.736), Beretta DT-11's (tapered .800>.732), and the occasional Krieghoff (.733) or Browning (.740). I think the mid .730's is probably ideal for Olympic 24g (7/8oz) shot loads. American trap shooters can use 1 1/8oz loads, and some trap gun manufacturers offer up to .750" bores. Previously mentioned Mossberg offers .770 for those big 3 1/2" 2+oz loads. The ideal may be a bore diameter as close to shotshell column length as possible.
7 months ago
Anonymous
So would overbored barrels make tight chokes work with steel without the overpressure issues that normally make that a bad idea?
7 months ago
Anonymous
[...]
[...]
Mossberg 535s and other three and a half inch chamber 12 gauges have a 10 gauge bore after the chamber. It makes them pattern nicer.
I've met a fellow old-british-gun enthusiast who has an double that started life as a 10 bore, but has been chamber-sleeved down to 12 at some point in the 130 years, and he swears by it, says it throws the best patterns he's ever seen. Of course, I've also met another guy who says the same thing about his full and fuller choked 16 bore with 1oz loads
7 months ago
Anonymous
I’ve got a Fox 16 full and fuller sxs, and I’ve got a Mossberg 535. The 16 is a laser beam with #6 and #4 lead and the 535 patterns steel #2-BBB as well as anything. I will say I have replaced the factory Mossberg chokes on the 535 with extended length Carlson chokes. The integral Full on my pre-vent rib Wingmaster 16 does pretty well too, up to #4 steel. I don’t shoot steel out of the Fox.
Nope. The Bess was 12ga the Charleville was 16ga. Modern shotgun bore diameters are different from historical ones due to the adoption of cartridges, so the modern 12ga is only nominally 12ga whereas the brown bess was actually and nominally 12ga.
The only thing that changed were the cartridges and the type of wads used. Today's cylinder bore 12ga measures the exact same as a 1850 cylinder bore 12ga: .73 inches.
The brown bess has a larger bore than that but shot a 12ga ball. The reason bore diameters of shotguns dropped to their nominal diameter is because fouling was not considered a problem. The Brown Bess shot a 12ga ball, the Charleville shot a 16ga ball.
20 gives no major killines advantige over a submachinegun/ repeater/ semiautorifle, it is definitely deadly and effective but not 12 gauge effective. And the tubular mag +the standardised shotgun cartrige lenghts , it gives no capacity advantige over the 12. >(Lenghts are standarduse more or less, it is not exact, sometimes you can fit 7 rounds of one ammo brand or 8 rounds of another ammo brand )
10 gauge is heavy.
That leaves: 12 gauge :2 and 3/4 inch and 16 gauges: 2 and 3/4 inch
Both have quite similar potential.
One is a lil bit but noticably lighter , the other hits a lil bit harder.
12 was Adopted by AMERICAN military, adopted by AMERICAN popo.
16 gauges were excluded from sport/skeet/trap so one of the civie subsets for which shooting their guns apart is not unheard of, did not buy them.
Police and military meant ecenomy of scale
Police and military meant milsurp / police trade. Aka cheapo gun.
It is a do it all caliber (16 gauge could potentially be a do it all but isn't)
Gun is not too heavy. 7 - 8 lbs if made of steel
Gun has some recoil but it is not shoulderdislocating recoil and has light ammo for training.
The large number of 12 g shottyes meant a lot of developement for hunting, defence and offence >:) which meant a large variety of 12 gauge ammo , lotsa variety to fill every need under the sun, and lotsa bang for your buck (pun intended).
And since america makes up around 50% of the firearm market. What america wants is what the rest of the world gets.
Starting the cycle of more 12 gauges, more 12 gauge ammo relegating other gauges to special needs ,purpose or for enthusiasts.
Also 20 gauge 3 inch shells filled the 16 bore sized hole in the market
So the 12 came out on top with the 20 as a sidekick.
,
To counter your (You)
a shotgun has advantages and disatvantages like all guns and situations they excell and falter at.
Buck has excelent energy transfer increasing the chance of a crippling/disabling injury and with less "funny angles" that cause non critical damage like a rifle . It is not common with rifles, but shotguns minmax that particular aspect.
Speshull ammo (door breaching)
MOST IMPORTANTLY >I was explaining why a 12 gauge became so common >In order to do that I had to try and explain why a 12 was chosen by military/ police over 20 or 10. > remember 12 gauge dominance did not happen overnight, 16 gauges were still commonly made in parts of europe at least till 1970. >and the only reason you have plenty of 410. Is the stupid taurus judge.
>Buck has excelent energy transfer...
This is all just mental masturbation, like the boomer quote about how "buckshot is like shooting someone with 8 32's at once". The bottom line is that in real-world shootings rifles and shotguns perform the same, statistically. One isn't better than the other. The only really statistically significant thing we can say about common defensive weapons is that long guns (rifles and shotguns) are much better than handguns.
>special ammo
Sure, shotguns have amazing flexibility. But now we're getting away from the original point, which was "killing advantage".
>>In order to do that I had to try and explain why a 12 was chosen by military/ police over 20 or 10.
Then you should have compared 12ga to 20ga, not shotguns vs. rifles.
I did compare it to other shottyes. >20 has same capacity, but less power, >10 is heavy and big.
16 was not picked for an unknown reason (to me) hence no police trade/milsurp/ piggybacking off existing manifacture.
and 16 was excluded from skeet.
That should explain why 12 became police / mil standard.
Those events lead to changes in the market which eventually brought about the everything a 12 gauge
I probably should have mentioned that the process of 12 gauge shotgun market dominance started during the early 20th century due to the factors mentioned above,and did not "finish" untill late 20th century.
!!!The next bit is important for context!!! And i have failed to mention this before
NEXT BIT:
The reason today there is little stat difference is because some people realised in the late 60s /early 70s that "smoll bullet go fast" is destructive and with a low recoil caliber like that, you can just shoot them again, and the gun can be short. Before that (late 60s/ early 70s) you had the boltactions, tompsons, stens, sterlings ,mp40s, m14s , fals, g3s, ak47, , akm, sth44s. A 12g pump/ semi is got to be better suited in some cqb situations then an smg and vice versa while the fals, m14s, g3s are generally unsuited for close combat, and not everybody had stg 44s or ak rifles. (This bit brings context to why a 12 gauge might have been better suited up close at one point).
After a certain point in lethality / destructiveness there are diminishing gains so no statistical difference is likely to be observed withouth a massive jump in power, i did compare it to the 10 and 10 is heavy, 20 offers no advantage over 12 except weight , already setup logistics, and has a specialised purpose so the 12 g dominance continues. And while in most cases it doesn't matter, the next step is to look at marginal cases and determine if one should bring a shotty or a rifle to a particular engagement.
Ar 15s are very popular for a good reason they fit in most scenarios
Anon, my reply quoted this one specific sentence: >>20 gives no major killines advantige over a submachinegun/ repeater/ semiautorifle
I didn't have a problem with the rest of your post, just that one.
Word limit reached...
Also buckshot has good energy transfer.
Am I wrong about that?
the statement as a whole implies that buckshot is somehow better than a rifle. I didn't want to waste space greentexting the entire rest of your post so I only copied the first part.
7 months ago
Anonymous
The point of the text is to explain why 12 took over, not nuff space to give dawn of time.
Buck has some advantiges over rifles, and rifles have a lot over buck. The basic gun tech has not had a major change since nitro powder (incremental , yes but not major) . So you have a limit on what you can do with calibers
556 for example, very good tissue damage and energy transfer, low recoil, 100-400 yards range , depending on shooter, rifle , ecc..you can push the 556 farther but generally most 556gats fall within this range.
Buck is 70 yards maximum probably. At certain ranges it gives you margins of error . And usually dumps all its energy into the target and requires less tissue to do so (funny angles/minmax argument) but situations in which you are pushing a shotgun to a 100 yards + are avoided, and cases where buck will disable when 556 wont are marginal. So the difference in statistical effect is negligible.
I never tryed to shit on rifles.
I will try to summerise what i was trying to (unsuccesfully/ unelegantly) explain. >shotgun in 12 adopted by american govt back when 30 06, 308,45, 9mm smg, were common and a 12 had a significant nieché to fill >12 gets economy of scale and developement focus >22 centrefire meta comes along in merica, and soon the rest of the world, >12 gauge (due to previous economy of scale and RnD) is the best choice for the continued but shrunken govt nieche. >12 gauge rnd and economy of scale continues >american civies find that from its adoption through the 22 centrefire meta, 12 gauge is the most varied and/or affordable with easyest logistics. >america makes up around 50% of the gunmarket. > americans have the logistics for 12 gauge in civvie, military, popo, heaviliy developed so a lot of meric**ts want 12 gauges >gun manifacturers make what americants want and the rest of the world find it easyest to follow american trends. >every manifacturer now has a shit ton of 12 gauges, and litle else.
How do you feel about sub-gauges? You see, back in the day when guns were mostly handmade they didn't just have 12ga then 11 then 10, etc. There were also in-between sizes, sometimes two. So 12ga was .729, then 12/1 was .740, then 11 (.751), 11/1 (.763), 10ga at .775, 10/1 at .784 and then 10/2 which was .793....
I've actually seen quite a few old British guns made for 12 bore cases, but with barrels made and proofed for 13/1 or 13 bore, which is kind of interesting
I've seen the opposite as well, where the bore was one step larger than the chamber. My understanding is that those guns were specifically made for what Greener called the "perfect case", a brass case with walls that were thinner than the normal rolled paper cases of the day.
And then there's the really bizarre shit like picrel.
The brass case guns? My understanding is that you'd use oversize wads, so if you were loading for a 10ga of that type you'd use 9ga wads.
That shotgun I posted the barrel flats on? Yeah, that's a squeezebore that takes 12ga shells but has 20ga muzzles. I'd assume you'd have to load that with lead shot (or other "safe" shot) only and no way could you shoot a slug through it, but otherwise it would be like loading any other 2-1/2in black powder 12ga shell. Proofmarks are for 7/8oz shot so it's going to be limited to quite mild loads. Makes you wonder why not just make it a 20ga in the first place if you're only shooting 7/8oz max.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Yeah, that's a squeezebore that takes 12ga shells but has 20ga muzzles.
Wild >Makes you wonder why not just make it a 20ga in the first place if you're only shooting 7/8oz max.
Maybe somewhere in the depths of the laudinum and ether binge where they came up with the idea, they figured it would act like the fullerest choke in human history. That, or maybe it was like the 2" 12 bores in that they wanted 20 bore performance but were pathologically opposed to having 12 and 20 bore cartridges at the same time to avoid a potential frick-up
I've actually seen quite a few old British guns made for 12 bore cases, but with barrels made and proofed for 13/1 or 13 bore, which is kind of interesting
https://i.imgur.com/wrI6GHe.jpg
How do you feel about sub-gauges? You see, back in the day when guns were mostly handmade they didn't just have 12ga then 11 then 10, etc. There were also in-between sizes, sometimes two. So 12ga was .729, then 12/1 was .740, then 11 (.751), 11/1 (.763), 10ga at .775, 10/1 at .784 and then 10/2 which was .793....
Mossberg 535s and other three and a half inch chamber 12 gauges have a 10 gauge bore after the chamber. It makes them pattern nicer.
The principle reason for the overwhelming homogeniaity of the shotgun market is actually the American Trap Association standardizing on 12 and 20 gauge. Trap shooters consume more ammunition than any other group of shotgun owners, and so the standardization on these two chamberings means that components for 12 and 20 gauge have a far greater economy of scale than 10, 16, 24, 28, 32, or .410 bore, and this economy of scale makes 12 and 20 gauge far more attractive to buyers of new shotguns, which creates more demand for 12 and 20 which improves the economy of scale further. It’s a feedback loop.
Army of darkness
Literal do all scatter gun. Deer, varmint, birds, etc etc
what do you wish had happened instead?
Not OP But 10 gauge is the good timeline, gimme a shockwave tenny that can take shorty shells would be breasts.
10 gauge is cool because big boom, but objectively it's barely any more useful than 12 gauge while being way heavier and having significant recoil.
If you're goose hunting a 10ga is superior to a 12ga. For everything else it's just a big heavy pig that shoots expensive shells. Fun to shoot? Sure, but not practical.
Yeah there's very specific bird hunting cases where 10ga is superior, but even then 3.5 inch 12ga is usually nearly as good. It's just so niche as to be relegated to a rarity
>10ga shorty shells
so about the same power and payload as 12ga?
>alternate universe
>10ga became standard
>go on AU /k/
>why did 10 gauge take over as the defacto standard? It angers me. 12ga is clearly superior
There are only a handful of use cases where 10 gauge will offer an actual advantage over 12 gauge.
8 gauge is the the good timeline 10 gauge is for little pussy boys
16 Gauge
patrician's gauge
Because it's about as big as military smoothbore guns of the Napoleonic era (or slightly smaller), and is good for everything. Back in the past, when casting your own slugs and shot was necessary, people prefered 16 gauge, because it was roughly similar in size and capabilities, but more cost-effective, and as industrial development kicked in, the factories have started kicking out lots of decent factory loads and factory projectiles, not to mention that lead got cheap.
>Back in the past, when casting your own slugs and shot was necessary, people prefered 16 gauge
er..that really depends on location. 16ga was rare in England and in the USA, generally speaking. It did have a brief resurgence in popularity in the US decades ago, for example the Auto-5 "sweet 16", but that was long after the era were people were casting their own shot. Back then 16ga was only popular in continental Europe.
Well, that's my hypothesis. Here in Russia, the 12 gauge got upper hand over 16 and smaller only after WWII. Until then 16 gauge was more present and even more present were 32 and 28 G (because of tsarist and soviet programms of rebuilding flawed army rifles into affordable hunting tools).
>Here in Russia
A Russian on /k/ with decent English, cares about guns and doesn't spend all his energy screeching kokhol? Supremely suspicious but also impressive
High education and getting tired of politics. Trying to be chill for most of time.
Found a cool old guy telling a couple of stories about fur hunting back in soviet times. Damn, they used to sell smoothbores in the shop next to various farming tools.Though the truly fun stuff was obviously scarce.
tell putin to get fricked for ending the paradox/lancaster bore funny stuff
I'm angry that he won't let us have rifles as soon as we'd love to.
what is it now, basic smooth bore, advanced smoothbore after 3 and rifle after 5 no?
Kinda like that. I'm not willing to stop for pseudorifles. I know what I want and I may save enough money for it, BUT. But that pesky 5 years limit. As if morons wouldn't show their stupidity and violate the law earlier.
didn't it used to be common to hunt with some massive shells over there? something like 4-gauge i think.
Well, the migratory gamebird treaty act of 1918 outlawed hunting with anything larger than a 10ga. Improvements in wad technology and the invention of the 3" 12ga shell meant that it was nearly as good as a 10ga for those larger payloads. The 10ga would be even more dead than it is today except it got a bit of a 2nd wind with more recent bans on lead shot. The cheap replacement for lead, steel, is less dense so you need a larger shell to carry the same weight shot.
And while a 12ga may not pattern as well with lighter loads or be as easy to carry compared to smaller gauge guns it is good enough for most applications for most people. Dedicated skeet shooters and people hunting upland game where they walk a lot still use smaller gauges often.
i hate 12 for hunting outside circumstances where its necessary, 16s, 20s, 28s and 410s are all so much easier to carry
>"Outlawed hunting with anything larger than 10GA"
>12GA instead
Lolwut learn to count.
>Common shotgun gauges are 10-gauge, 12-gauge, 16-gauge, 20-gauge, and 28-gauge. The smaller the gauge number, the larger the shotgun bore. Gauge is determined by the number of lead balls of size equal to the approximate diameter of the bore that it takes to weigh one pound. For example, it would take 12 lead balls with the same diameter as a 12-gauge shotgun bore to weigh one pound. Today, however, gauge can be measured much the same way as caliber, by measuring the inside bore diameter.
Your reading comprehension is terrible.
First the law banned anything larger than 10ga. Then, later, it fell out of favor when modernized 12ga (better wads, 3in and 3.5 in) shells could do the same job.
ever head of fractions?
Behold.
The future we missed out on.
The brown beast was 12ga. The French musket (charleville?) was 16ga. Between battlefield pickups and surplus they became the standards in regions in which they were employed.
Damned autocorrect. Brown Bess.
The Bess was 10 gauge. The French one was 12 gauge.
>The Bess was 10 gauge
Yes.
French Charleville was .69" bore diameter, that's closer to 16ga (.662") than it is to 12ga (.729")
>69" bore diameter
Charleville shot a much smaller ball than that, much closer to 16ga. Similarly for the Bess, it shot a 12 ball, but to improve resistance to fouling it used a larger bore than the projectile. Both sides "solved" the gas blowby problem by using a lot more powder.
Once breech loading shotguns and their cartridges were invented, then the bore of new 12ga shotgun barrels was reduced because powder fouling was no longer really an issue.
Not true at all. The bore stayed constant.
There was no constant barrel bore diameter back then. Manufacturing capabilities didn't allow for it, and larger bore diameters allowed easier firing of multiple shots on a days hunt without having to clean the bore. But there was a standard 12 ball.
When are you talking about specifically?
In England in 1813 an act of parliament established proof rules, and this copy (from the 1834 book The Gun by W. Greener) shows a chart of diameters where it gives 12ga as 0.738". The official rules from 1888 as seen in his son's book, The Gun and Its Development by W. W. Greener, gives 12ga as 0.729
Jumping in here: Current production 12 guage shotguns have a wide range of bore diameters, from around .724 all the way to .770. I think Benelli barrels are .724 or .726, many Berettas use a tapered bore of varying diameter from forcing cone to choke (I think their DT-11 starts at .800!), Remington is .728-.730, Winchester and Browning are .740, and some 3 1/2" chambered 12ga Mossberg barrels are .770 - which is basically 10ga. There's evidence for and against using "overbored" barrels to achieve more consistent shot patterns. Some companies think they do, while others don't. (The same goes for forcing cone length and choke geometries.) In my personal experience patterning guns I own, I think that - all things being equal - an overbored barrel with matching choke geometries does pattern better and decreases the length of the shot string.
This isn't only important for lead shot. Voluminous (heavy) loads, larger lead shot, steel and tungsten shot don't compress as well as smaller loads of lead shot. Larger bore diameters allow better patterns for large steel shot and heavy large steel shot loads in particular, which is why Mossberg has 3 1/2" 12ga barrels bored to 10ga diameters. An old but excellent book on a lot of this is Bob Brister's Shotgunning: The Art and the Science.
What do you think about bismuth?
It's fine, it works. It behaves similar to lead in and out of the bore. I like it for hunting close-in ducks with a 28ga.
Yes and no. So, the diameter of change for choke from, say imp. cylinder to modified, or from modified to full doesn't change. IC to Mod is still 0.010", Mod to Full is still 0.015" (unless you're Remington, in which case Mod to Full is a 0.010" change, I believe). With big steel, it's not so much overpressure as it is throwing your pattern off and peening your choke tube threads. What an overbore allows is for both slightly more choke, say Imp Mod ("Light Full" if you're Ithaca), and to get better patterns at less constriction thus negating a tighter choke. However, you won't see much change if your steel shot is already deformed like the cheap Winchester Xpert stuff. The most benefit is seen in uniform steel, like the Win Double-X and Federal Speed-Shok.
There are a lot of variables to great patterns. The added heft of the 10ga may fit that shooter better. The 16ga could have nice long forcing cones, or the magic choke transition zone, or he just knows that gun well. There are some old 12ga doubles with bores as tight as .719! Yet, with the old school 1oz to 3/4oz 12ga loads from the late 1800s they have no trouble taking pheasants and grouse. If it works, it works. Some expensive Italian brands have tight bores as standard, and they're still found afield around the world.
But, Olympic shooters around the globe almost all have guns with bores above .730" - custom Perazzis (.736), Beretta DT-11's (tapered .800>.732), and the occasional Krieghoff (.733) or Browning (.740). I think the mid .730's is probably ideal for Olympic 24g (7/8oz) shot loads. American trap shooters can use 1 1/8oz loads, and some trap gun manufacturers offer up to .750" bores. Previously mentioned Mossberg offers .770 for those big 3 1/2" 2+oz loads. The ideal may be a bore diameter as close to shotshell column length as possible.
So would overbored barrels make tight chokes work with steel without the overpressure issues that normally make that a bad idea?
I've met a fellow old-british-gun enthusiast who has an double that started life as a 10 bore, but has been chamber-sleeved down to 12 at some point in the 130 years, and he swears by it, says it throws the best patterns he's ever seen. Of course, I've also met another guy who says the same thing about his full and fuller choked 16 bore with 1oz loads
I’ve got a Fox 16 full and fuller sxs, and I’ve got a Mossberg 535. The 16 is a laser beam with #6 and #4 lead and the 535 patterns steel #2-BBB as well as anything. I will say I have replaced the factory Mossberg chokes on the 535 with extended length Carlson chokes. The integral Full on my pre-vent rib Wingmaster 16 does pretty well too, up to #4 steel. I don’t shoot steel out of the Fox.
>Similarly for the Bess, it shot a 12 ball,
not correct, war load was a .690 ball and like, 165 grains of fg.
Nope. The Bess was 12ga the Charleville was 16ga. Modern shotgun bore diameters are different from historical ones due to the adoption of cartridges, so the modern 12ga is only nominally 12ga whereas the brown bess was actually and nominally 12ga.
The only thing that changed were the cartridges and the type of wads used. Today's cylinder bore 12ga measures the exact same as a 1850 cylinder bore 12ga: .73 inches.
The brown bess has a larger bore than that but shot a 12ga ball. The reason bore diameters of shotguns dropped to their nominal diameter is because fouling was not considered a problem. The Brown Bess shot a 12ga ball, the Charleville shot a 16ga ball.
Wasn't the Charleville the more popular musket in colonial America?
20 gives no major killines advantige over a submachinegun/ repeater/ semiautorifle, it is definitely deadly and effective but not 12 gauge effective. And the tubular mag +the standardised shotgun cartrige lenghts , it gives no capacity advantige over the 12.
>(Lenghts are standarduse more or less, it is not exact, sometimes you can fit 7 rounds of one ammo brand or 8 rounds of another ammo brand )
10 gauge is heavy.
That leaves: 12 gauge :2 and 3/4 inch and 16 gauges: 2 and 3/4 inch
Both have quite similar potential.
One is a lil bit but noticably lighter , the other hits a lil bit harder.
12 was Adopted by AMERICAN military, adopted by AMERICAN popo.
16 gauges were excluded from sport/skeet/trap so one of the civie subsets for which shooting their guns apart is not unheard of, did not buy them.
Police and military meant ecenomy of scale
Police and military meant milsurp / police trade. Aka cheapo gun.
It is a do it all caliber (16 gauge could potentially be a do it all but isn't)
Gun is not too heavy. 7 - 8 lbs if made of steel
Gun has some recoil but it is not shoulderdislocating recoil and has light ammo for training.
The large number of 12 g shottyes meant a lot of developement for hunting, defence and offence >:) which meant a large variety of 12 gauge ammo , lotsa variety to fill every need under the sun, and lotsa bang for your buck (pun intended).
And since america makes up around 50% of the firearm market. What america wants is what the rest of the world gets.
Starting the cycle of more 12 gauges, more 12 gauge ammo relegating other gauges to special needs ,purpose or for enthusiasts.
Also 20 gauge 3 inch shells filled the 16 bore sized hole in the market
So the 12 came out on top with the 20 as a sidekick.
>20 gives no major killines advantige over a submachinegun/ repeater/ semiautorifle
Neither does a 12ga.
,
To counter your (You)
a shotgun has advantages and disatvantages like all guns and situations they excell and falter at.
Buck has excelent energy transfer increasing the chance of a crippling/disabling injury and with less "funny angles" that cause non critical damage like a rifle . It is not common with rifles, but shotguns minmax that particular aspect.
Speshull ammo (door breaching)
MOST IMPORTANTLY
>I was explaining why a 12 gauge became so common
>In order to do that I had to try and explain why a 12 was chosen by military/ police over 20 or 10.
> remember 12 gauge dominance did not happen overnight, 16 gauges were still commonly made in parts of europe at least till 1970.
>and the only reason you have plenty of 410. Is the stupid taurus judge.
>Buck has excelent energy transfer...
This is all just mental masturbation, like the boomer quote about how "buckshot is like shooting someone with 8 32's at once". The bottom line is that in real-world shootings rifles and shotguns perform the same, statistically. One isn't better than the other. The only really statistically significant thing we can say about common defensive weapons is that long guns (rifles and shotguns) are much better than handguns.
>special ammo
Sure, shotguns have amazing flexibility. But now we're getting away from the original point, which was "killing advantage".
>>In order to do that I had to try and explain why a 12 was chosen by military/ police over 20 or 10.
Then you should have compared 12ga to 20ga, not shotguns vs. rifles.
I did compare it to other shottyes.
>20 has same capacity, but less power, >10 is heavy and big.
16 was not picked for an unknown reason (to me) hence no police trade/milsurp/ piggybacking off existing manifacture.
and 16 was excluded from skeet.
That should explain why 12 became police / mil standard.
Those events lead to changes in the market which eventually brought about the everything a 12 gauge
I probably should have mentioned that the process of 12 gauge shotgun market dominance started during the early 20th century due to the factors mentioned above,and did not "finish" untill late 20th century.
!!!The next bit is important for context!!! And i have failed to mention this before
NEXT BIT:
The reason today there is little stat difference is because some people realised in the late 60s /early 70s that "smoll bullet go fast" is destructive and with a low recoil caliber like that, you can just shoot them again, and the gun can be short. Before that (late 60s/ early 70s) you had the boltactions, tompsons, stens, sterlings ,mp40s, m14s , fals, g3s, ak47, , akm, sth44s. A 12g pump/ semi is got to be better suited in some cqb situations then an smg and vice versa while the fals, m14s, g3s are generally unsuited for close combat, and not everybody had stg 44s or ak rifles. (This bit brings context to why a 12 gauge might have been better suited up close at one point).
After a certain point in lethality / destructiveness there are diminishing gains so no statistical difference is likely to be observed withouth a massive jump in power, i did compare it to the 10 and 10 is heavy, 20 offers no advantage over 12 except weight , already setup logistics, and has a specialised purpose so the 12 g dominance continues. And while in most cases it doesn't matter, the next step is to look at marginal cases and determine if one should bring a shotty or a rifle to a particular engagement.
Ar 15s are very popular for a good reason they fit in most scenarios
Anon, my reply quoted this one specific sentence:
>>20 gives no major killines advantige over a submachinegun/ repeater/ semiautorifle
I didn't have a problem with the rest of your post, just that one.
the statement as a whole implies that buckshot is somehow better than a rifle. I didn't want to waste space greentexting the entire rest of your post so I only copied the first part.
The point of the text is to explain why 12 took over, not nuff space to give dawn of time.
Buck has some advantiges over rifles, and rifles have a lot over buck. The basic gun tech has not had a major change since nitro powder (incremental , yes but not major) . So you have a limit on what you can do with calibers
556 for example, very good tissue damage and energy transfer, low recoil, 100-400 yards range , depending on shooter, rifle , ecc..you can push the 556 farther but generally most 556gats fall within this range.
Buck is 70 yards maximum probably. At certain ranges it gives you margins of error . And usually dumps all its energy into the target and requires less tissue to do so (funny angles/minmax argument) but situations in which you are pushing a shotgun to a 100 yards + are avoided, and cases where buck will disable when 556 wont are marginal. So the difference in statistical effect is negligible.
I never tryed to shit on rifles.
I will try to summerise what i was trying to (unsuccesfully/ unelegantly) explain.
>shotgun in 12 adopted by american govt back when 30 06, 308,45, 9mm smg, were common and a 12 had a significant nieché to fill
>12 gets economy of scale and developement focus
>22 centrefire meta comes along in merica, and soon the rest of the world, >12 gauge (due to previous economy of scale and RnD) is the best choice for the continued but shrunken govt nieche.
>12 gauge rnd and economy of scale continues
>american civies find that from its adoption through the 22 centrefire meta, 12 gauge is the most varied and/or affordable with easyest logistics.
>america makes up around 50% of the gunmarket.
> americans have the logistics for 12 gauge in civvie, military, popo, heaviliy developed so a lot of meric**ts want 12 gauges
>gun manifacturers make what americants want and the rest of the world find it easyest to follow american trends.
>every manifacturer now has a shit ton of 12 gauges, and litle else.
Word limit reached...
Also buckshot has good energy transfer.
Am I wrong about that?
>only reason you have plenty of 410. Is the stupid taurus judge
Whatever it takes to keep feeding picrel and it's ilk.
And if 10 gauge was the standard you'd be complaining that 12 gauge should be, such is the mind of a contrarian.
well 10ga is not so take your hypothetical and shove it up your ass
>It angers me.
why? it's neither a prime or odd number
I'd be pissed if 17ga was standard
How do you feel about sub-gauges? You see, back in the day when guns were mostly handmade they didn't just have 12ga then 11 then 10, etc. There were also in-between sizes, sometimes two. So 12ga was .729, then 12/1 was .740, then 11 (.751), 11/1 (.763), 10ga at .775, 10/1 at .784 and then 10/2 which was .793....
I've actually seen quite a few old British guns made for 12 bore cases, but with barrels made and proofed for 13/1 or 13 bore, which is kind of interesting
I've seen the opposite as well, where the bore was one step larger than the chamber. My understanding is that those guns were specifically made for what Greener called the "perfect case", a brass case with walls that were thinner than the normal rolled paper cases of the day.
And then there's the really bizarre shit like picrel.
Interesting. Wonder how you'd load ammo for one of those today
The brass case guns? My understanding is that you'd use oversize wads, so if you were loading for a 10ga of that type you'd use 9ga wads.
That shotgun I posted the barrel flats on? Yeah, that's a squeezebore that takes 12ga shells but has 20ga muzzles. I'd assume you'd have to load that with lead shot (or other "safe" shot) only and no way could you shoot a slug through it, but otherwise it would be like loading any other 2-1/2in black powder 12ga shell. Proofmarks are for 7/8oz shot so it's going to be limited to quite mild loads. Makes you wonder why not just make it a 20ga in the first place if you're only shooting 7/8oz max.
>Yeah, that's a squeezebore that takes 12ga shells but has 20ga muzzles.
Wild
>Makes you wonder why not just make it a 20ga in the first place if you're only shooting 7/8oz max.
Maybe somewhere in the depths of the laudinum and ether binge where they came up with the idea, they figured it would act like the fullerest choke in human history. That, or maybe it was like the 2" 12 bores in that they wanted 20 bore performance but were pathologically opposed to having 12 and 20 bore cartridges at the same time to avoid a potential frick-up
Mossberg 535s and other three and a half inch chamber 12 gauges have a 10 gauge bore after the chamber. It makes them pattern nicer.
>BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING BROWNING
The principle reason for the overwhelming homogeniaity of the shotgun market is actually the American Trap Association standardizing on 12 and 20 gauge. Trap shooters consume more ammunition than any other group of shotgun owners, and so the standardization on these two chamberings means that components for 12 and 20 gauge have a far greater economy of scale than 10, 16, 24, 28, 32, or .410 bore, and this economy of scale makes 12 and 20 gauge far more attractive to buyers of new shotguns, which creates more demand for 12 and 20 which improves the economy of scale further. It’s a feedback loop.
'ate muties.
'ate xenos.
'ate 'eretics.
Simple as.