Why are magazine fed shotguns not more common?
Surely being able to reload a full mag in 3 seconds is vastly superior to filling a tube one by one
Surely being semi-auto is superior to having to pump after every shot
Why are magazine fed shotguns not more common?
Have you seen the size of a 10rd 12ga mag?
the box magazine design does not lend itself well to 12ga shells
that's really the only issue
Couldn't you just make shells longer but narrower, and hence more compact for magazines?
That's the .410 no gunz
>make the shells longer
.410 is not longer than any other shell, nogunz. He’s clearly talking about a shell with the same volume as a 12 gauge.
>magazine is so long you can't wrap your hand around it
so now it's less efficient than a tube
plus they have speed loaders, you know.
I never said it was a good idea, I’m just saying that the anon that thinks .410 is an elongated shell is a moron, because the .410 isn’t long.
fair enough
Try not having baby hands, lmao
I can palm a basketball, buddy.
doesn't mean I want a magazine that's 10" across.
Palm my dick, buddy. Nobody suggested fricking 10 inch shells.
oh no, it's moronic
that's kinda gay
and what the frick would be the point? as you can see, there's little enough application for mag-fed shotties to start with
You could get a simple feeding system that wasn't bulky or heavy and could handle various lengths and types of shells easily. Magazines are prone to problems with shell deformation and rim locking. Tubes tie capacity to shell length and require some sort of shity lifting mechanism. A short belt, maybe five rounds or so, would be very similar in bulk to something like a shell card. It could even be set up
so you could swap shells in and out with a round chambered and without cycling the action.
>and what the frick would be the point?
It's cool.
No Fun Allowed
If you like shooting, and your targets aren't exclusively bipedal, you're a larper.
moron doesn't know reloading with your right hand is a thing
>he thinks he can reload better than Jerry miculek
Ok moron
tube speedloaders only work if you have a chute for them.
It's not length, it's the huge rim. Shells are also plastic, and when they're in a box mag they get squished a bit and that affects feeding as well. If you wanted a reliable box fed shotgun you would have to design a shell that is stiffer, so some sort of metal, and make it a rimless cartridge. And nobody wants to do that because they aren't really used for combat, only niche roles.
Someone did redesign 12ga shells as you described about 10 years ago. The Intrepid RAS-12. They sold ARs configured to shoot them as well. It flopped hard, nobody bought them, and before too long the ammo and the guns were dirt cheap on the secondary market.
New calibers in general are just destined to fail. Even the 5.7 which had the potential to be the next big concealed carry caliber basically fell flat on its face.
Yeah, that's the thing. If new cartridges that are honestly good fail to catch on most of the time it's no surprise that a new caliber which doesn't actually have any real purpose beyond "range toy" wouldn't catch on either.
I'd say there's a decent spread of age in commonly used calibers it's just also real easy for any manufacturer to churn out their own proprietary one that we see a lot of flops in poor or just too niche cartridges
then there's armscor which won't even get saami certification for .22 tcm ensuring it will die with them
HK did it first.
But ultimately shotguns are obsolete for anything other than hunting.
The high volume shells and large bore make them ideal for a variety of less lethal rounds and other odd things like breaching slugs.
You could probably relaunch something similar today and have moderate success by marketing it to 3 gun shooters.
3 gun is a lot bigger today than 10 years ago and the people who want to be the best will have no problem shelling out the big bucks
That effects the powder burn
holy fricking shit Samuel Colt over here just cracked the secret to mag fed shotguns. Dude go get a patent right fricking now.
.410 and 28g already exist annon. They don't perform as well and still have the same problems as 12g with the plastic body and large rim
They're very popular in the competition scene so that means the typical cycle has started, just like LPVOs, red dots on pistols, PCCs and so on. Give it another year or two and people on this board will be desperately defending 870s and tube mags.
Within the US, the NFA has stalled development of them, since having your product automatically declared a DD limits its commercial appeal. This hasn't really been enforced in the last ~20 years so you've had foreign things like Veprs and those turkish AR shotguns bleed in, but its not a big market to begin with (people basically buy them for 3gun and for fun) and the existing options comfortably fill it. They tried to civilianize the AA12 a year or two back and got vanned, idk if it was a DD or not but they do still come after people selectively which is not reassuring. Outside the US, practically nobody can own them so there's little drive to make them outside of police and military customers. Police customers have a limited application for mag-fed shotguns, because police roles often disfavor "offensive" looking weapons and the less lethal and breaching rounds they have shotguns for are better loaded one at a time. Military customers overwhelmingly are not interested in mag-fed shotguns, even when they said they were and funded development of them, they never end up buying any. Thing is with military shotguns, they only really need to fire once or twice (into a door hinge), and then they can frick right off back onto somebodies pack; so a slim weapon is preferred and quick mag changes aren't a major priority.
see
The "sporting purpose" exclusion for shotguns to avoid a Destructive Device designation for being over .50" is what has restricted meaningful development. If you couldn't convince some AFT window-lickers that it had a "sporting purpose" usually defined as hunting, then you might not get approval.
Not needed for birds or blowing holes in locks. Thenonlpace they're remotely popular is in 3gun where they force you to shoot shotguns that everyone hates and usually decides the match because no one practices shotguns because they're boring at and suck so the guys that are good automatically win.
>the guys that are good automatically win.
based trap shooters and rednecks dabbing on the best wiener gobblers of 3gun
Picky eaters.
Apparently finding correct length shells is a bit problematic because two boxes that have been marked as same length have different length
Because the russians perfected the magfed shotgun with the saiga and americans decided they'd rather ignore the market than lose to slavs a single time.
>Why are magazine fed shotguns not more common?
There's not much of a point to them outside of video game larping. They frick up the ergos of the gun for hunting and clay sports, not to mention that hunting laws and the rules of the clay game make the high capacity pointless anyway. And if you want to fight a rifle is better in nearly every way, shotshells are high recoil, have short range, and are extremely heavy/bulky.
When would it be advantageous to have a box mag vs tube? Serious question. Shotguns are useful primarily for sport not combat and box mags get in the way of that.
Faster reload for 99% of shooters.
Plus, start with a boxmag with 20 rounds which is better with handling than a 2-meter tube.
Faster reload is the obvious answer, but now ask yourself when that matters. It doesn't matter for hunting. It doesn't matter for clay sports. If we're going into combat we'd be packing a rifle instead.
So why exactly do we care about reloading a shotgun super fast? Outside of super specific niches like 3gun competition nobody gives a crap about being able to load a shotgun faster, it's just not important.
>start with a boxmag with 20 rounds
have you ever in your life handled a loaded magazine?
>uses metric
>is moronic
>start with a boxmag with 20 rounds which is better with handling
You have never held a box of shells have you? A mag that weighs 3-4lbs loaded sucks. You basically have to use a drum which are heavier.
When you require a large drum magazine, then the mag-fed shotgun is obviously the right choice.
Like, if you're going to be shooting a lot of watermelons for your israelitetube and tiktok channels, or if you want to run 30 different 12ga rounds in a row for your next sweet instagram story. Maybe you don't want to reload at all during your "REMOVING AN ANTHILL WITH A SHOTGUN" twitch stream that you've got scheduled soon.
Plenty of practical use for a mag-fed shotgun.
crowd control in a wrol scenario
More importantly, what aren't belt fed shotguns a thing?
This. You could make a shotgun that functioned like the older grenade launchers with the rotating half chambers. The pressure is low enough it would be safe. You could have short belt segments and jam new ones in as needed. It would also work well for single feeding weird shit like zinc slugs, socks, etc.
They've already made one and guess what? It sucks for any application other than being cool.
Who made one? I'm not aware of it.
The Protecta, The Bulldog, Armsel and Sentinel Arms Co Striker 12, the SWD Street Sweeper.
The Street Sweeper is one of the coolest and most meme-worthy shotguns of all time. It's also a piece of shit.
It's the ideal weapon for action movies, videogames, and cosplay enthusiasts, with absolutely no real world practicality.
None of those are what had been described.
>It's a shotgun that works like some grenade launcher.
The grenade launcher that was described is the old Mk18.
Yes. I probably made myself unclear.
Then explain. You want a shotgun that works like a grenade launcher. That’s either single shot, a rotating drum that’s wound up, or a belt fed like a mk 19. So what is it?
Like that. Obviously it wouldn't cycle with a hand crank.
Even scaled down to 12ga that’s entirely too large and cumbersome for someone to want
That is a clock spring drum magazine and not at all similar.
It's a cylinder, not a magazine. Still not what the anon here:
was asking though.
Fair, it is some grose hybrid of a drum magazine and a revolver. I am that same homosexual though.
Armsel striker was probably the best. The street sweeper was the same concept but was terrible
Destructive device with no sporting value atf rules
What is a good shotgun I can buy to compensate for my tiny penis? Asking for a friend.
Serbu super shorty
As someone who got Saiga (Izhmash manufactured) for shits and giggles i can say that the 10rd magazines are pain in the ass to fill and changing the magazine isnt as easy compared to rifle magazines, would even suggest that tube-fed semiauto is a lot faster to load. Not to mention feeding issues.
Or maybe i just suck with that gun. Its still fun as frick.
Because muh capacity and muh reload speed don't actually matter that much in real world use for shotguns to justify fricking up the ergos.
The places they make sense are in shooting competitions where you need to engage completely unrealistic numbers of targets and video games. For civilian/police use cases, you aren't going to be shooting more than 4 people in any situation that isn't going to end with you dead or in jail, and you normally aren't going to need to double tap people with a shotgun nor should you be missing regularly. The military doesn't care about shotguns outside of specialized uses like door breaching because their main concern is firefights involving dumping rounds at the places enemies you can't see might be out to at least 100 yards in urban areas or even further in other terrain.
The main thing is that shotguns, as a gun for some sort of police work or military work, are utility guns. You can easily open the action and load a single round in while keeping the tube in reserve, with totally different ammunition. You might have special breaching rounds, beanbag or pepper rounds, etc, and still have other things available.
With a magazine and not lifter mechanism, its harder/not possible to load single rounds, and the weaker bean bag or pepper rounds won't cycle the action. A pumped shotgun doesn't care about how weak the rounds are.
if we ignore the fact that shotguns are outdated combat implements, the most convenient way to have high capacity is the rotary tube design. tubes are already the most efficient way to hold shells so trying to divert from that design will only lead to shit like massive two-foot magazines.
>if we ignore the fact that shotguns are outdated combat implements,
Wut? They're still perfectly fine from a civilian/police aspect, and have always been a niche use item for the military due to effective range concerns.
>They're still perfectly fine from a civilian/police aspect
they're sub-optimal to most other styles of weapon. the military uses them exclusively for breaching and MAYBE some riot control. they're a bad weapon for war because of how few rounds you can carry.
>b-but they're sub optimal
Except the severity of real world situations don't scale endlessly with the weapons you have at your disposal. Just because you have a weapon available doesn't mean the universe is going to construct a scenario for you where its advantages will actually make a difference.
>they're a bad weapon for war because of how few rounds you can carry.
They have always been bad weapons for general use during war since armies moved to rifle muskets, because most combat takes place past the effective range of buckshot. Civilian/police shootouts happen at much shorter distances. Consider that the longest recorded police sniper shot is only 187 with the average shot being at just 51 yards, while infantry combat regularly takes place at longer distances even in jungles (pic related).
https://www.policemag.com/339408/swat-snipers
Shotguns are ideal for taking out small drones, so I would expect them to make a come back. Obviously they are good for less lethal too and breeching.
Breeching and bording teams use them because under barrel shotguns are awkward and while not being "ideal" they are plenty effective for a door kicking or boarding engagement.
In fact, they are best in class at % immediate kills/incapacitation per shot. You don't get better stopping power than the equivalent of multiple 9mm rounds hitting someone, each with a chance to hit a vital organ or major artery.
That said, obviously they are not going to be used in most situations. But if you're breeching you're not always going to want to step back and put a weapon into a backpack as was suggested ITT.
However, the proliferation of armor might make them less advantageous over under barrels. Same goes for SMGs, which are also becoming more niche.
I still think we'll see plenty for drones though. They also still get used for MPs because it's important to put down people rushing you immediately to stop a riot attempt.
Armor might actually help "shotguns" make a comeback for more active use in breeching. You're obviously going to want something rifled, but also with a big bore and large cartridge. It won't be the slugs used today because they suck a penetration, but with a change in materials and shape a big bore gun could offer fine accuracy up to decent ranges and get through armor where 5.56mm isn't going to reliably.
The large bore helps with total kinetic energy so they you're at least likely to get significant BABT even if penetration fails. Pretty hard to assure penetration with the way armor is going, aside from tungsten.
No, that's fricking moronic. If you're using shotguns against someone who's wearing armor and aren't using shot with the intent of making it easier to hit all the parts of them that aren't armored, then you're doing it wrong.
Shotguns certainly could potentially make it more feasible to put holes into faces, necks, and abdomen more consistently. I can't see them being used that way as they exist today.
Yes, with current ammo options. But obviously you can make a .729 cartridge with a 3-3 1/2 inch length that is going to be able to pen armor and deliver more kinetic armor than a .308 cartridge that is 2 3/4ths of an inch.
But even rifled high velocity slugs today are soft and deform and so aren't good for this. I'm just saying they could be, they certainly have the muzzle energy.
>But obviously you can make a .729 cartridge with a 3-3 1/2 inch length that is going to be able to pen armor and deliver more kinetic armor than a .308 cartridge that is 2 3/4ths of an inch.
Stop getting your idea of how armor penetration works from New Vegas. That's not how it fricking works. The low chamber pressure of 12 gauge is incompatible with the high velocities needed to effectively punch plates.
I mean, they make 12ga penetrators.
They're tiny tungsten sabot rounds so they can hit insane speeds despite the low chamber pressure, may as well have been designed specifically for Youtubers to push through steel rifle targets.
The idea of punching a plate with a .729" projectile though is a pretty frickin' hilarious thought. If 700 Nitro Express doesn't already do it, this sure as shit wouldn't.
It's the cartridge size that lets you get more propellant, the projectile doesn't need to be that big.
You can easily manufacture a big bore gun for higher pressures as well.
But as you drop projectile size you lose kinetic energy. It's a trade off between penetration and having enough energy to make debilitating BABT more likely.
What else do you do when you have to engage enemies at close quarters who can likely survive several hits from 5.56mm and still be functional?
Armor will be a growing issue until coil guns finally get effective enough. Then 3mm projectiles going hypersonic will make it obsolete again.
>steel rifle targets
Yeah, now try that with popular rifle plates that are rated against AP rifle ammunition rather than just ball ammunition, or ball ammunition + safe engagement distance like steel targets are rated. That those examples are already using harder, heavier materials than steel and firing them at higher velocities using a sabot just to penetrate targets that can commonly be penetrated just with high velocity ball ammunition should tell you that you aren't achieving much for piercing armor with 12 gauge. Meanwhile, 7.62 NATO M993 AP with its tungsten carbide core will punch NIJ IV/ESAPI plates, and 7.62 NATO M948 SLAP with its saboted tungsten carbide penetrator will punch any armor currently intended for a person to wear or carry.
Using tungsten rounds is completely impractical for the amounts of ammo even just US special forces use, let alone for a major war.
What does that have to do with the point I'm making?
Yes but that's irrelevant to this discussion on how shotguns do not defeat armor.
>designed specifically for Youtubers to push through steel rifle targets.
And basic 55gr FMJ can also go through steel targets from a 20" barrel. Guess what happens when you go to level IV
Why wouldn't you just make a .50 BMG rifle?
Or really, if you made something specifically for penetration during CQC you could probably create something with less recoil specifically designed for it.
But is it really a problem if you have good armor too? People will shoot a lot of rounds. Someone will eventually get hit in gaps in coverage or in the head, or the armor will eventually degrade.
Stopping penetration isn't binary thing. The plate gets less likely to stop a round after each hit, especially if it's hit in the exact same spot, which will almost ensure penetration since there is no ceramic to crumple.
Higher energy rounds so degrade plates quicker, I guess that is one advantage of a larger round. And damage without penetration. I've seen a few studies on that. They've broken pig's ribs or even killed them with non-penetrating high energy rounds, but a battle rifle does that too.
>But obviously you can make a .729 cartridge with a 3-3 1/2 inch length that is going to be able to pen armor
Explain how galaxybrain
>I'm just saying they could be, they certainly have the muzzle energy.
No they don't. Both 3" sabot and rifled slugs have less than 3000 ft lbs. Brenneke black magic magnums are barely over 3000. There are dozens of common rifle rounds that exceed those in energy. The concept is sectional density is obviously foreign to you so you should look that up before more things that are completely wrong.
wow, a hdest player in the wild
buckshot to the legs
Can work. Breeching teams will probably have some armor on upper legs and it's a much smaller target.
Still, would have worked for the poor security guard at the NY super market shooting. If he had a shotgun we'd hear about a racist loon who shot two people on the way into a store before getting his legs shot out and then taking shot to the head.
Tungsten sabot rounds when?
For the thousandth time, shotguns are terrible at defeating armor. Even against soft armor slugs get stopped and the backface deformation isn’t lethal (though it’s severe enough they are probably out of the fight). They do absolutely nothing to rifle plates. A 1oz slug has the same energy as a .308 from a full length barrel yet no one claims a .308 is knocking people on their ass.
Armor gets beat with speed and/or hard penetrators. If you make a tungsten penetrator for a sabot and use a rifled barrel that might work, but then your making a shotgun into a sub par rifle. Just use a rifle and roll your ammo for that. You might be right in that shotguns are a counter for armor but not by penetrating. They could see a comeback for head or hip shots with buckshot. The spread isn’t much at close range but it helps
>Shotguns are ideal for taking out small drones
No they aren't, moron. Switchblade drones are hilariously fast and you won't be able to spot them until its too late. This idea of shotguns being anti-drone weapons is a total fantasy.
Soft, rimmed shells. Deformation and rimlock are a b***h.
There are no problems with rimmed shells in magazines. Shit was figured out well over 100 years ago.
Shells in box mags also do not deform enough to prevent chambering. Shells left in tube mags will however.
>Shells in box mags also do not deform enough to prevent chambering. Shells left in tube mags will however.
You have that backwards. Shells will deform in a box magazine unless you're using full brass shells, and will deform enough to prevent chambering if you leave them long enough (which will definitely happen if you have separate defensive and practice ammunition unless you consciously rotate out your defensive ammunition).
In a box mag shells are supported by the rim and shot column and suffer very little deformation. The small amount that does happen is typically a slight bend or flattening and is not enough to stop the shell from chambering.
When in a tube mage they have end pressure on the shot column so the deformation occurs just above the powder. This deformation is a ring and prevents the shell from fully chambering.
Meanwhile there are plenty of posts from people who own box mag shotguns reporting problems with deformation preventing chambering, while the shells that I've had in my shotgun for home defense for the past 7-8 years all drop right into the chamber under their own weight.
>7-8 years
If you're going to lie on the internet try to make it believable.
What's unbelievable about buying some buckshot back in either 2014 or 2015 for home defense and just shooting birdshot otherwise? The buckshot stays in the gun and gets unloaded when I want to shoot clays or something.
Children think of 7-8 years as a long time, I mean that's literally how long they've been alive, it's just not a realistic number to them. Remember, these same kids think that "old people" are in their 20s, and anyone older than 30 has gray hair and has one foot in the grave.
Quite a lot of women over the age of 30 DO have gray hair, especially if they have children, they just hide it with hair dye. Men also start going gray in their 30's, but typically towards the end of their 30's
In fairness, since I first got a shotgun for home defense, I've been sure to find a home invader at least once a month. Sometimes you gotta do some real careful maneuvering to get them to target your home. In particular, I find the Pizza Hut app to be pretty consistent in attracting strangers to your door.
So you're unloading the gun and probably rotating the ammo at the same time.
Wait why? Should I be doing this?
Grandpa loaded his shotgun before he passed away in 96, I just put it under the bed and figured I was good to go.
At 26+ years old I would probably change the ammo, but unload it, remove the barrel from the gun, and see if the ammo drops all the way into the chamber under its own weight. If your ammo drops all the way into the chamber under its own weight, then it's in spec.
It's the exact same ammo, and the gun has a tube magazine like shotguns were intended to have. I bought a box of 10 shells, fired 4 to see how much it patterned at the ranges I might encounter, then threw 5 in the tube and left one in the original box.
It’s not cycling if the same ammo gets reloaded. You can’t seriously think that taking it out for a couple hours or maybe a weekend “rests” the shell and would undo any deformation?
I literally just tested this with something loaded in 2017. So 5 years is no problem. Another 2 won’t hurt it
Rimmed magazines are always more complicated and therefore have a higher chance of malfunction. That the Russians, Soviets, and British MOSTLY engineered their way out of this does not mean their solutions are perfect.
As for deformation, there are several reports of box magazines deforming shells to the point of malfunction. This is nearly unheard of in tube magazines.
>Shells in box mags also do not deform enough to prevent chambering. Shells left in tube mags will however.
Wrong. They deform in mags but not in tubes. The sides of a shell are weaker than it oriented vertically. It’s like a pop can. You can easily crush an empty one just by squeezing it. It takes much more force to crush it by pushing from the top and bottom.
Magazine fed shotguns are PERFECT for dicking around and having a good time, but they're not a great choice for hunting, or home defense, or law enforcement, or literally anything else at all.
Did someone say box fed shotgun?
ayo what the frick
Nice.
Cylinder/Drums are superior.
are you nogunz? It’s pretty basic firearm knowledge that shells were never built to be magazine fed, and thus have major feeding issues when magazine fed.
We wouldn't have quivers filled with speed loaders like this.
And that would be less badass.
That honestly looks like a lot of fun.
If you're going to have something the size and format of a rifle, you might as well have a rifle, plus mag fed shotguns suck.
shotguns still use shitty rimmed ammo that's unreliable in a semi-auto