What's the big deal with Abe trying to change the article 9? The idea that Japan renounce war was basically forced upon them after their defeat during WW2. Why are they so attached to it while China is building a huge navy right next to them?
What's the big deal with Abe trying to change the article 9?
It's a weird political and cultural disconnect, as long as they don't need to consider the option, they think they don't need to spend the money preparing for it.
Meanwhile their "self-defense forces" are already rearming at record speed and spending.
Cognitive dissonance is a Japanese cultural trait.
t. PrepHolelets
The average, modern Jap stepped in half a century of liberal democracy want to stick with Article 9 because they dread the return of a Politically Active military. If you could recall your basic Jap history, from the Meiji Period up until 1945, the Jap Military was a major political faction that ran a de Facto and later post 1920, literal military dictatorship which dictated Civil Government Policy, repressed & curtailed civil rights in its favor, spied on its own people through a network of secret policemen, and if civil officials did not do what the military liked, went on assassination sprees to get what they want. As they have did in the infamous Feb 1936 Incident where the Prime Minister's Cabinet was nearly wiped out. Japan was basically very similar to Modern China under military rule: an authoritarian semi-capitalist country where one party got its way.
Japs fear that if the military is allowed to exist again, they'll be a politically active faction, which may- thanks to Jap tendencies to obey authority- seize power and return Japan to a de facto military dictatorship.
That and they also don't want to cut funds from the Jap Nanny State for the upkeep of a huge military.
>Japs fear that if the military is allowed to exist again
It already does, under the self defense forces.
Japanese love avoidance through semantics.
Other then that i agree.
Except since Japan has renounced war as a viable policy, the SDF's mandate and power to influence Civil Government is very much curtailed and it places them politically and utterly at the mercy and oversight of the civil government.
>Japan has renounced war as a viable policy
Offensive war.
What exactly says that the same oversight would be impossible without Article 9?
I understand that to the average Japanese maintaining the status quo seem like the easiest option, and it comes with a number of political, diplomatic and military simplifications both domestically and in inter country relations.
It's avoidance of a touchy subject because they can't bring up their concerns about a active military without admitting to previous history of their past military.
Meanwhile the SDF is on all but paper reintroducing capability through loopholes and semantics to adapt to a changing reality around them.
They've been mind-trapped by literal CCP psyops into thinking removing Article 9 = escalation = bad. I'm not even joking. They're so sheltered that a few empty bluffs from the CCP immediately scared them off.
> mind-trapped by literal CCP psyops
Mutts…
Hilariously stupid
>Unbloused boots
>America hasn't forgiven or forgotten the war.
...What country do you live in anon? When's the last time you touched grass?
JSDF falls under the command of the Japanese law-enforcement structure. They're literally a branch of Japan's police force, just extremely well armed.
Just because they would allow a military again doesn't mean they have to completely abandon government oversight or give it political power.
If the JSDF wanted to overthrow the government they could just as well do so today as they could as a military force.
What is the government going to do?
Like you say, the SDF is very well armed.
It's a moronic circular argument.
The SDF know they're not technically supposed to exist, and don't want to give the people and politicians reason to enforce that technicality. If they were allowed to exist, they might start getting comfortable, then powerful.
And those intuitions will lead to their doom. Japan is a sitting duck.
Only if the USA suddenly croaks or gets mindwiped and doesn't care what happens to Japan.
>doesn't care what happens to Japan.
And that is the current situation.
Do you honestly think congress and the American public would approve of a single drop of American blood being spilt to defend Japan? America hasn't forgiven or forgotten the war.
Japan has to remilitarize or die. Yanks can't be trusted, China is outright baying for blood, and Russia is all too happy to join in.
>why die for poland
Yes. If Japan gets attacked, that will be the response.
>oh the treaty? Uhh... Have fun!
it must be hard being this moronic, anon
I also like your bit on americans totally still being mad about WW2.
actually you must be chinese or something, only chinks hold these sort of generational grudges and you must assume the US holds them too
Americans hold generational grudges.
Look at blacks and muh slavery
Blacks aren't Americans. Only Anglo-Saxons can be Americans.
>t. moron
I wonder how long your ancestors have been in this country.
1742.
What a shame my Germanic ancestors beat yours by 30 years.
I'm going to go kill myself. Wish me luck fren, I know for a fact that all Anglos go to hell :^(
At least you'll get to suffer alongside the French.
Beautiful digits, my G*rmanic friend. Au revoire.
Lol. Japs dont even care about WW2 anymore. All you hear from Americans is muh Perl Arbor muh 2 nukes werent enough. Japs dont even question if nuking civilians was justified. Its all Americans.
Only complete weebs would care if something happened to Japan. No actual person would want to defend the place or even know where it is on a map.
>All you hear from Americans is muh Perl Arbor muh 2 nukes werent enough
????
Are the voices in your walls telling you this? Most Americans don't give a shit about what the japs did during WW2.
https://www.villagevoice.com/2011/03/12/facebook-imbeciles-think-japan-tsunami-is-karmic-payback-for-pearl-harbor/
These were normal Americans. Not extremists.
Go ask an American normie what they think of Japan.
>cherrypicked randoms on faceberg represent the entire country
Take your head out of your ass, homosexual. Americans were on the ground to help when the tsunami hit Japan.
*The US Navy was ordered to render aid by the US government.
Japan had to pay for the aid as well. You think they did it for free?
The sailors then proceeded to sue the government because of radiation sickness scares.
>ordered to render aid by the US government.
Is this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha"?
>Washington is normal American people
k
You said that Americans were on the ground thus proving American normies actually don't hate Japan.
>American normies actually don't hate Japan.
This is true
Now imagine if Chinese troops were ordered to help Japan, there would have been problems.
The only """proof""" you have that Americans hate Japan are a few cherry picked facebook posts, you're a moron.
>The only """proof""" you have that Americans hate Japan are a few cherry picked facebook posts, you're a moron.
from 2011 in a obscure site mind you
>criticizing America means I like China
Grow up.
>I like China
Where have I said this?
You are like a child screaming and flailing around after being told something he doesn't like. Grow up.
>nooo I only heavily implied that you prefer China by saying that China would have done worse as a counterpoint to your posterinoooo! I didn't actually say those exact woooords!
kys Black person
you SHOULD like China.
have a nice day
Muttards marked for liquidation
>Muttards marked for liquidation
Yellow Black person
>Go ask an American normie what they think of Japan.
toyota, honda or komatsu would be the response.
>One or two random homosexuals on social media represent what a majority of Americans believe
I know you're a shill and you're not a good one, Chang. This time we're not going to help you out. The Nanking massacre didn't happen and the comfort women were willing prostitutes.
lmao chink, are you fricking braindead? americans love japs and vice versa
Not a chink.
I hate China more than anything in this earth.
I hate Russia.
I dislike America.
What are you then?
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/347090/eve-summit-americans-view-japan-positively.aspx
>84% of Americans hold positive views of Japan
>79% of nonwhite Americans (probably Korean/Filipino/Chinese diaspora still pissed about the war crimes)
Why die for Danzig was a moronic point. Because that rhetoric was precisely in line with what happened to Poland. Poland got attacked and their apparent guarantor for safety, the UK, fricked them over.
Trusting another country to look after you is an easy recipe to get BTFO.
Chinese don't want Japan to remilitarize.
Once again, do you think Americans will cheer on their boys being sent to fight for the Japanese? It'll be Vietnam again. Public antiwar sentiment will be back in vogue.
They still declared war and drug themselves into WW2.
I'm sure the 5 million dead poles took solace in that.
>Poland got attacked and their apparent guarantor for safety, the UK, fricked them over.
The UK declared war on Germany, and went through with it. Didn't save Poland then and there because military relaities made it impossible.
The Phoney War period is hardly "[going] through with it."
>expects the merchant nation with next to no army to do everything
>when the French are literally right there
you sound like typical butthurt eternal Pole boomer so I will reply to you in Polish
Wielka Brytania wypowiedziała wojnę Niemcom czym wypełniła swoje zobowiązanie, tyle w temacie. Pomoc wojskowa była nierealna w sytuacji w której polska armia została rozpierdolona w drobny mak już w pierwszych dniach wojny. Nie da się pomóc krajowi który przestaje istnieć zanim jeszcze okręty brytyjskie zdążyły wyjść w morze.
Absolutely nobody still alive in America hates Japs for WWII.
Except for a lot of people on this site.
And on reddit.
And on Twitter.
And on Facebook.
take your meds
>Except for a lot of "people" on these bot infested A.I. circle-jerk webshits
Literally who fricking cares
see
don’t reply until you have an argument
Gallup's methodology relies on asking people about a series of countries.
When there are other countries that receive more criticism, it primes people to give better ratings to other countries relatively.
So because Russia and China are higher on the list of enemies right now, people will give more favorable ratings to Japan due to a priming effect.
Look at the 90s,the polls very rapidly switched to negative, despite Japan being in a crisis and incredibly weak compared to the USA. Why? They say it's due to a recession, but that makes no sense considering Japan was in far worse economic straits. The fact the Soviet Union dissolved just before should be considered. America lost its no. 1 enemy. Americans should have had more animosity in the 1980s, when Japan was actually hurting them economically but they didn't. I posit it was the presence of the Soviet Union at that time.
Polls are all too often junk science.
All you’re saying is that people’s opinion changes over time in response to conditions. Duh. If people like Japan more in response to China’s rise, that will make them more likely to support military action in favor of Japan against China.
No. I am saying that when people are *asked* their opinion it will change what they *say* when you put it next to other options they like less. It doesn't change the underlying opinion.
"That sucks, but it's not our problem" is a perfectly reasonable and common response to two other countries at war. And that is what public sentiment will be if China encroaches on other Asian countries.
>And that is the current situation
Delusional. Japan is the US's hard won control over the Pacific and therefore security for the west coast.
homie who the frick is going to attack the west coast.
> Japan was basically very similar to Modern China under military rule: an authoritarian semi-capitalist country where one party got its way.
Pre war japan is nothing like modern China.
Japan is still a one party faction.
The LDP has been in power for like 98% of post-WW2 history. There's only like 4-5 dudes who were outsiders and the Jap deep state made sure to evict them.
Because the other party fails to win elections due to being associated with communists. British Conservatives win most of the time too because the competition is just shit. Doesn’t mean it’s a one-party state.
Dumb
Actually go read how Japanese politics work.
Or maybe just look at the election history
>British Conservatives
There hasn't been any actual conservative in power since Major and Thatcher.
exactly, it's devoid of ideology, just like the LDP
there are ideological factions but overall it's incoherent
Silly Westerns, Japanese politicians don't think in parties, they think in cliques: very personal political ties between officials that is bolstered by patronage and actual irl Friendships. Politicians mostly join the LDP because that's where all the powerful politicians are, but once they're inside, they form their own cliques and factions, usually centered around a power broker.
All East Asian politics is like this. Even in China which is a De Facto and De Jure a One-Party State, is riddled with several cliques within the party. Politics is more honest in East Asia since politicians follow networks of power, not ideology.
It just shows that Asians are subhuman insectoids incapable of independent thinking.
other developed countries manage to have modern militaries and haven't devolved into juntas
besides, the JSDF is a de facto standing modern military capable of the same level of force deployment as other countries with militaries of similar sizes. Article 9 says this isn't allowed but it's blatantly just ignored.
>other developed countries
That's the issue, culturally Japan isn't on the same level when it comes to division of state responsibility.
It's a very top heavy hierarchy, leaning towards autocracy while everyday management gets lost in pointless bureaucracy on all other levels of government.
They are almost like Russia and the Soviets before them, except without the poverty caused by failure of internal economic policies.
Yet.
>It's a very top heavy hierarchy, leaning towards autocracy while everyday management gets lost in pointless bureaucracy on all other levels of government.
you're describing all developed countries
Japan takes it to an extreme though, coupled with a culturally ingrained disdain for making hard choices because of the fear of responsibility.
They will let their nation wither away through indecision and stalling responsibility, even the more outspoken politicians only do so because they know they are never at risk of getting anywhere with it because the system favors stagnation over development.
The only faction not plagued by this is the national extremists, that will never reach political majority no matter how much Western media like to picture them as alarming development, and even if they somehow did their backwards ideals would be a economical suicide for a nation already in decline in international relevancy.
>other developed countries
Being the operative syntagm here. You idiots with your "Japs are actually White" memes forget that the entirety of Asia was forced into modernity inside the last 5~6 generations. Before that the average korean or japanese was about as low as a 7th century peasant.
They do not have the capacity for independent mature thought, and likely won't have it for another 2~3 centuries of cognitive evolution.
>They do not have the capacity for independent mature thought, and likely won't have it for another 2~3 centuries of cognitive evolution.
Some of their millennial and zoomer equivalents do. I worked for a small, privately owned Japanese company a few years back, and after ages of hearing how politically and historically oblivious Japanese people supposedly are I was quite surprised at a lot of the things I heard from my colleagues, including acknowledgement that WWII was their own frickup rather than some sort of unavoidable natural disaster that happened to them. Unfortunately they've got an even bigger problem than we do with boomers having an iron-fisted grip on everything and that generation definitely fits the stereotype more closely.
>WWII was their own frickup
The only reason Japan attacked us was because of FDR meddling in their affairs at the behest of his israeli backers.
FDR was a communist apologist and the biggest tyrant to ever rule America
Based. Frick FDR, frick Churchill, frick israelites, and frick jannies. I miss Charles Lindbergh so much bros
>where one party got its way.
But there were two parties. The China invasion party and the Russia invasion party. The latter got fricked in 1936 so they ended up invading China.
There was also the IJA/IJN split.
>Garands
Arisakas don't make much sense either, but come on man.
They're parade/drill rifles just like how the USMC Silent Drill Platoon uses M1s for their drills. Japan doesn't have Arisakas in enough numbers, because the Allies confiscated or destroyed their entire stockpile, and in good enough condition to issue them as parade/drill rifles. Guess what they have plenty of? Old Garands that they were given in the early SDF days.
>japs fearing military control
Cucks, bring back the warrior class
>fearing incompetent military control such as IJN/IJA interservice rivalries and their snakepit of high command
Reasonable fear, but after decades of democracy they're smarter now, I see no problems of them expanding the SDF into a fully professional three branches. Hell, take in foreign advisors again, it worked last time.
The japanese are mentally trapped in a perpetual state of childhood after being bombed in WW2, that’s why they created anime. It’s also why they’re dead set on not having an army, they’re like 13 year omds who are irrationally horrified the idea of war.
Asians carry grudges no matter if they're yellow or brown, if you're a burger you want Japan to stay the course and not go full rearmament even if they technically are already.
They will never forget and forgive about Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
>if you're a burger you want Japan to stay the course and not go full rearmament
But we do want that
Because you’re dumb
ya seethe chink
Lol
You’re so fricking stupid
A destabilized east asia is good for no one, least of all the US.
A remilitarized japan poses several challenges, one of which is increased japanese policy independence
Being an independent nation does not destabilization make.
Dumb
Big dumb
You're dumb.
Good, let's go for round two. They're long overdue for nukes 3 and 4
>bro Japan will attack the US again
I’d like to see them try
they're not banned from driving inside kadena, misawa, yokota, yokosuka, etc.
Anon, the Japs love America. There is a very vocal minority that dislikes us but the average Jap adores us and our culture. Besides if war is looming we could always ask MLB to open the door for all of Japan's baseball teams to join the league. Suddenly, possibility of war is over because now the Japs have even more baseball teams to watch play and so do us Burgers.
t. scared Chinaman noises
because most Japanese are fricking idiots who haven't thought about the situation in any depth and think America will save them. They call them "heiwa boke"
>muh treaty
The treaty only says they will consult. It doesn't give any guarantee of safety.
>having consulted with you and the aggrieved party, hereafter referred to as THE CHINKS, we find your defence to not meet our needs at this time. Thank you for exporting VCRs and remember, democracy is non-negotiable.
because they looked at the US spending billions in two foreign quagmires and said no thanks.
Abe hasn't been the prime minister in a long time and isn't even alive anymore (since recently).
We buck broke them after WWII. Asians tend to remain stun locked if you give them a good thrashing, after the Manchu’s the Chinese took centuries to even begin thinking about feeling pride again. But the Japs don’t have that luxary, the modern state of the world is not forgiving to those that lag behind even a bit
>after the Manchu’s the Chinese took centuries to even begin thinking about feeling pride again
Black person the Qing Dynasty was plagued by rebellions throughout its rule. It survived because its 18th century rulers were good administrators and identified itself as China. Unfortunately their successors were shit, and when the Qings failed to keep out Western Imperialists & solve the huge 1830s famine, the Changs thought it was "losing the Mandate of Heaven" and rebelled again.
Having a ape out and killing your neighbors and eating your children is not pride lmao.
It is if said Chimpout is based on National Revival.
>m-muh national revival!
Lmao that is a hard cope, the chinks were rioting for a different strong man to lead their lives, rape their wives and possibly give more gibs. Not out of some sense of national pride lol Even Black folk would almost instantly compared to the asiatics realize that their conditions were shit and sought freedom, while the chinks were beyond happy to just suck whatever warlords wiener it took to remain in peace.
The chinks were so down bad, that hundreds of thousands died to illegally immigrate to the Manchu homeland to just be made slaves on arrival, and even then they preferred it in favor of thinking on their own
You’re fricking moronic.
What's the big deal about article 9 anyway? The part about not maintaining offensive forces is toothless and hasn't been taken seriously in decades, is being able to declare an offensive war THAT important? Shouldn't a national military aspire to be a self defense force anyway?
Because millions of people died and suffered for absolutely nothing during WW2 and pacifists blame their institutions for it
>suffered for nothing
Kino nuke drops and the arisaka type 99 but sure... it was all for nothing
Most Japanese are very sheltered. Germany and Japan are designed like that after WW2.
They don't wanna disrespect the ghost of the gaiden shogun
Gaijin*
F
Japan is extremely sheltered and completely naive to the outside world. Thats really it. They actually believe that if Article 9 got revoked, they would immediately start going into wars.
Because that deal is literally the best thing to have ever happened for them. They can’t have an army, therefore massively decreasing the spending they would need for it, while USA is legally obliged to defend them in an event of an aggression. They basically get the strongest army in the world for defence while paying pennies. Unless they literally want to plan invasions, renouncing the article would be simply foolish.
>USA is legally obliged to defend them in an event of an aggression
Common misconception. Read the text of the treaty. They are obligated only to consult. They could basically fire a few missiles, "consult," leave Japan to its fate and still meet the treaty
They also have one of the world's highest military expenditures.
>Common misconception. Read the text of the treaty. They are obligated only to consult. They could basically fire a few missiles, "consult," leave Japan to its fate and still meet the treaty
Specially now that Japan isn't the leading exporter of junk electronics and cheap manufacturing it once was after the post-WW2 rebuild they really have started to outlive their usefulness if they refuse to carry their weight in other areas.
Exactly. Remilitarize or die. Those are the options.
Abe dedicated his entire life to his country, and then he gave his life for his country.
F
>a not american telling me what americans like or dislike
abe was retired
he was no longer in office
he was running for re-election
That he's out speaking for the LDP doesn't mean he's trying to become PM again. It isn't a US-style directly elected presidency.
Under his leadership, Japan definitely took steps towards branching into a regional power. They are not going to win any war by themselves but they will pull their own weight as part of an alliance. I think that was the right direction for Japan.
American hegemony seemed intolerable in 1939 but after it was forced on them Japan found it wasn't that bad. Becoming a Chinese puppet seems bad but it can't be helped. In time Japan will see it isn't any worse.
>muh chinese hegemony in two more weeks
>can't even touch a small island on their doorstep
Patience grasshopper. We are training in the mountains in the ancient techniques. Soon (1000 years) all will return to middle kingdom.
changing article 9 has to be the dumbest thing ever considered by any nation
why not remove the american rapist forces instead
>not first post by this IP
Nanking 2 is coming chink
Japan establishing good relations with China would be the US Government's worst nightmare.
Yeah, China being able to fly giant dragons over America too
Since we're making impossible scenarios let's go balls in
should have not messed with Xi kek
cringe
>constantly tries to rope poor shitholes into debt traps
>fills other countries with spies and subversive elements
>engages in economic warfare for extremely petty reasons
Hmm...
>ill never get to fly a B52 low enough over Beijing to smell BBQed Han
Alright chang I know you're in this thread somewhere. I've watched your incompetent displays for long enough. You and your subhuman ilk are fricking terrible at psywar. I mean that. Your propaganda rings utterly hollow across the cultural divide to a frankly humorous degree and it always has and the average westerner is more than immune to the whole "throw shit at wall" method. People performing this badly at their job in the west would be fired for gross incompetence and never find work in the industry again.
So how about you pay me, a white god westerner to do it for you? How many Chinese or Russian e-girls will you provide me with per week? I'd also need a suitable office, so find me a high rise somewhere nice overlooking some rice paddies and enough money to walk on the nubile flesh of young chink maidservants for the rest of my life.
You'll know where to find me.