It was a recruiting tool. The Marine Corps had just adopted MARPAT and the Army wanted in on it. They took the colors from the Natick developed Urban Tracks pattern deleted the black and used the CADPAT/MARPAT screens.
>they fucked up the colors on the actual uniform
This, the hues are all fucked. Especially when viewed from a distance. Instead of blending with the background, the pattern actually stands out. Hence all the reports of troops appearing to "glow" when viewed from a couple hundred meters. Guy in this video calls it "isoluminance": youtu.be/WQYsmZ6AJdY
The colors aren't fucked up. They are the intended colors, your internet color swatches are what is fucked up. The colors come from the pattern Urban Tracks. There wasn't a printing mistake.
how is viscamo a meme? handheld thermals are still not issued to every troop
Mostly because anyone that actually needs camouflage isn't going to be wearing commies. Most combat units in the army were conducting patrols in the open during GWOT not attempting to conceal themselves. Past 300 meters as long as you aren't wearing a VS17 panel it doesn't matter what color or pattern your wearing anyways, you won't be seen if you're actively trying to avoid it. The benefits of visual camouflage are basically non existent in COIN, and minimal for most units in real war.
Because you can get the same effect by wearing any muted color palette. If we look at Ukraine for example both sides are wearing bright colors to distinguish themselves because identification of friendlies is more important than concealment. In the future with the proliferation of thermal systems is going to make visual camouflage even less important. Anyone who really requires visual concealment is going to be wearing something more substantial than basic cammies. Though it is still dumb to not choose a pattern that provides concealment just because it provides no negatives or added cost versus something like UCP.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
yeah, i get that, thanks bro
you can camouflage grunts from thermals too, right?
i don't know about you but i think that IFF can be done if first world armies finally adopt google glass style shit with AR and a heads up display integrated into it, i know, inb4 muh meme-it would have to be made mil spec
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's pretty much impossible to camouflage infantry against thermal detection because of the laws of thermodynamics and current material science. Though thermal camouflage would be much more valuable than visual.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
don't thirdies wrap themselves in space blankets that work well against low resolution thermals on drones like the ones the troops would inandvertedly end up using because of space and energy constraints? picrel
I disagree with that last part. I see a lot of drone footage from Ukraine and it can be hard to see soldiers at times because of the camo. If they weren't wearing identifying arm bands it would be very hard to notice them.
they fucked up the colors on the actual uniform, simple as
thats a few shades off of this urban tracks piece isnt correct but the famously gray ucp is based upon urban tracks where the colors aint right and somehow it isnt a printing mistake?
I'm telling you Natick intentionally took the same colors from Urban Track sans the black and the story about the colors being chosen because they are found in all environments is a lie by the army, and that color palettes found online are never accurate because of the nature of digital displays.
https://i.imgur.com/zHzvozy.png
don't thirdies wrap themselves in space blankets that work well against low resolution thermals on drones like the ones the troops would inandvertedly end up using because of space and energy constraints? picrel
Wearing space blankets isn't practical as a uniform because you still need an airgap between the body and the mylar, and it won't work against modern thermal systems anyways.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>modern thermal systems
excuse me if i'm wrong, but aren't infantry thermal systems constrained massively by weight, space and energy which would make them not as powerful as these modern systems?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Also tarps are rather okay at concealing Against those optics, but a tarp in UCP is going to be rather bad at concealing anything since you can’t really dirty it up right
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Also tarps are rather okay at concealing Against those optics, but a tarp in UCP is going to be rather bad at concealing anything since you can’t really dirty it up right
Any modern handheld system will defeat it. You need an airgap between your camouflage layer and the heatsource otherwise it will absorb the thermal energy and no longer be camouflage. As for mylar, even if it can hide from modern thermal handheld devices it still reflects visible light and so visual detection becomes a problem again. Mylar uniforms just aren't practical.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
oh, ok. well what a shame
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Not what I meant. Camo tarps are usually used to conceal positions, for example. A tarp right over a fighting hole or skirmish trench. That would have the air gap needed to help against thermal detection and it more practical than a shitty mylar uniform, since it doubles as shelter and poncho as well. And, if in a good camo, can conceal rather well and breakup the shape of whatever you’re concealing
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about concealing infantry outside of a prepared position because the thread is about uniforms. If you're in a prepared position of course you can conceal from thermal imaging, but what happens when you need to move?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah, but not everyone is gonna have thermals at all times and most of the time, especially infantry patrols, they rely on visual sighting, and a camo helps a lot for that. Plus camo breaking up your shape helps when shit is going down. It won’t make you invincible, but that extra half second it takes for an enemy to aim down and shoot at you already makes it worth its weight in gold. Plus a great camo and bad camo cost about the same so why skimp out?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'm not arguing against camouflage or saying UCP is good I think that's what the other anon is saying. My point is that camouflage patterns themselves are mostly a meme because the miniscule differences between them don't really have any real world impacts, they mostly serve as something to make a military distinct and look different. You will get the same effect wearing French CCE as you will American woodland or British DPM. At any distance past 300 meters if someone is wearing any muted color palette and trying to not be seen they won't be seen, unless you have something like thermal imaging which is becoming more prevalent.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Ah okay then yeah i suppose, i must’ve confused you with the other guy then
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Though fighting holes themselves will be difficult to conceal. When you dig into the earth you introduce air into the soil changing its thermal properties. They use thermal imaging to find graves.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Oh of course, but you still gotta conceal them. And any bit helps
>this thread again
You could judge the pattern based on what a couple of pogues look like against a white background. Or you could judge it based on what we, the guys who were out every day getting dirty in the moondust, looked like. UCP is much maligned, but was ultimately as effective as a camo pattern can be.
Which is to say... not very effective. The Taliban always knew more or less precisely where we were and where we were going. Multicam wouldn't have changed that.
Surely the brass will let everyone’s uniforms be dirty as fuck when working
You really just don't get it. Your average infantryman isn't hanging out with "the brass." You don't even see a fucking general when deployed. Ever. Why? Because you are too busy going outside the wire, looking to close with and destroy the enemy. Your uniform is always dirty because you are always outside the wire, sometimes for weeks at a time. If you're a pogue, you might catch the eye of some self-important general or colonel or whatever, so your uniform should probably be clean. Camouflage pattern doesn't matter for these people. If you aren't getting your uniform dirty, you aren't in a position for your camouflage pattern to even matter in the first place. If you are, your uniform is dirty. It's as simple as that.
Yeah but why settle for a shitty camo if that’s the case? The marines use a way better camo and lose nothing by using it
It's not that shitty. It really just wasn't. It was fine. As far as priorities go for the average grunt deployed to a combat zone, it's literally the furthest thing from your mind. You'd much rather be carrying a few less pounds on your back than worry about what color your clothes are.
That's because you're theorycrafting on the internet, and have served in a peacetime military if you've served at all. I'm trying to tell you it really doesn't matter. Camouflage patterns are the biggest nothingburger debate in the entire sphere of military enthusiasm.
>this thread again
You could judge the pattern based on what a couple of pogues look like against a white background. Or you could judge it based on what we, the guys who were out every day getting dirty in the moondust, looked like. UCP is much maligned, but was ultimately as effective as a camo pattern can be.
Which is to say... not very effective. The Taliban always knew more or less precisely where we were and where we were going. Multicam wouldn't have changed that.
look like a "bright gray blob" to you? Are you just trying to troll or are you just genuinely retarded?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
No because it's covered in dirt. I want something to work without needing to be covered in dirt.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Because combat takes place in sterile boxes, right?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Because people don't roll around in dirt before going out.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
How would you know?
The fundamental assumption of your entire argument is that camouflage pattern matters. It really doesn't. I don't know what to tell you except that the hill you're dying on is one that doesn't matter at all. You want a camouflage pattern that "works" when it's super clean and brand new, and my argument is that it really doesn't matter all that much if it "works" at all. From this baseline, UCP was fine. I don't think it's the Best Camouflage Pattern to ever exist, but I don't really care if it is or isn't.
I don't know how to meet autists like you in the middle. My intuition says that this is primarily because you're not interested in a good faith discussion and are just trying to waste my time with shitposts.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're right and every military is wrong.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Militaries are massive organizations that operate with a ton of institutional momentum. Every military thought the battleship was the backbone of the navy until WWII. Sometimes consensus isn't actually automatically correct.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
I can't wait for us to go back to UCP. Multicam just blends in too well.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Even units that have more freedom to choose their uniforms use camouflage.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Where and when this photo was made?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Given the use of both UCP, M05 and Russians wearing old Flora camouflage*, it's probably between 2004 and 2008. As for where, the presence of Finns and what seems to be coniferous forest indicates it could possibly be a joint European armed forces exercise.
*I know the guy with the Russian flag patch is wearing Kamysh or Tigr camo, this could be before the Russians standardized their camo patterns or the guy in the back could be Belorussian. Either way it fits the supposed timeframe.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
moron how hard is it to understand >shit camo (ucp)+local dirt= okay camo >good camo+local dirt= amazing camo
You say that like company level leadership isn’t just as gay if not gayer than division level leadership like generals.
Anyway, I disagree that it was fine. It was genuinely inferior to contemporary camouflages and even the predecessor. sure camo isn’t the most important thing on the planet, but it’s already hard enough to cover and conceal as an infantryman, with a rather shit camo, that just makes it worse, especially when all your gear is that same camo. You could say with dirt it’s okay, but so is marpat or dpm or fleck, and they’re already great on their own so with local dirt they’re way better than UCP for the same cost. And the US army doesn’t just exist for COIN operations, they still have to train and prepare for modern warfare with near peer enemies. Meaning concealment is extremely important, and a shit camo does not help
>muh its supposed to be dirty
just use feldgrau then instead of wasting money printing a useless pattern
More evidence of my theory that 'sovl' means 'looks like shit and has objective downsides.' See the 'quadrails have sovl' losers for another example of this
sovl = nostalgia value
ie
"this gear has SOVL because it looks like 90's swat" t. guy that grew up in the 90s
Wasn't the original idea that UCP was "universal" only that it was meant for accessories like MOLLE attachments, pouches, backpacks etc? Like how Marines use solid coyote-brown equipment, that matches with both their woodland and desert MARPAT?
No. This was not the idea. When the army began looking to replace UCP they had this idea, have a transition pattern for gear and for the uniform, and then bookend woodland and arid pattern uniforms while still using the transitional pattern gear. They abandoned the idea, but it's where multicam arid ND tropical come from.
UCP is really good at identifying friendly soldiers because no one uses those colors. If you see a big grey blob, he's probably friendly. If you see woodland or desert, you're not sure if it's friendly or not.
>BRO OUR WARFIGHTERS™ IN MODERN CONFLICTS WILL MOSTLY BE FIGHTING IN CITIES BRO. ALL CITIES HAVE THE SAME URBAN COLOR PATTERNS. OUR WARFIGHTERS™ WILL ONLY NEED ONE UNIVERSAL PATTERN AND THEY'LL ABLE TO BLEND IN ANY SITUATION OUR WARFIGHTERS™ WILL BE IN.
I don’t even wanna be a dick, like his arguement has merit to an extent, Camo isn’t the end all be all, but it’s definitely better than nothing and a shitty camo that needs to be dirty to work is shit. As for Ukraine, we don’t really suffer from lack of communications and optics as much as those two sides do, so we can conceal our positions more effectively without needing bright letters and hi vis shit on us, so that arguement falls flat
More evidence of my theory that 'sovl' means 'looks like shit and has objective downsides.' See the 'quadrails have sovl' losers for another example of this
that anon is correct. camo patters are mostly a meme and UCP ineffectiveness is blown out of proportion. modern uniforms and camos are mostly a military fashion statement.
i like multicam as much as the next guy but i can find a dozen pics where guys in multicam don't blend with the background and a dozen pics of ucp guys that do.
$
It was a recruiting tool. The Marine Corps had just adopted MARPAT and the Army wanted in on it. They took the colors from the Natick developed Urban Tracks pattern deleted the black and used the CADPAT/MARPAT screens.
I think the army realized visual camouflage is mostly a meme, but didn't realize that by completely ignoring it they looked retarded.
how is viscamo a meme? handheld thermals are still not issued to every troop
they fucked up the colors on the actual uniform, simple as
No you're retarded. The colors are what they ere intended to be. They were developed for an urban pattern.
>they fucked up the colors on the actual uniform
This, the hues are all fucked. Especially when viewed from a distance. Instead of blending with the background, the pattern actually stands out. Hence all the reports of troops appearing to "glow" when viewed from a couple hundred meters. Guy in this video calls it "isoluminance": youtu.be/WQYsmZ6AJdY
The colors aren't fucked up. They are the intended colors, your internet color swatches are what is fucked up. The colors come from the pattern Urban Tracks. There wasn't a printing mistake.
Mostly because anyone that actually needs camouflage isn't going to be wearing commies. Most combat units in the army were conducting patrols in the open during GWOT not attempting to conceal themselves. Past 300 meters as long as you aren't wearing a VS17 panel it doesn't matter what color or pattern your wearing anyways, you won't be seen if you're actively trying to avoid it. The benefits of visual camouflage are basically non existent in COIN, and minimal for most units in real war.
why is it minimal in a real war? isn't the fact that your guys can hide in a bush/blend in with terrain in shadows and be tougher to spot a plus?
It is, he’s using a fairly true statement (visual camo is overrated in war) and making a really large and untrue generalization with it
Because you can get the same effect by wearing any muted color palette. If we look at Ukraine for example both sides are wearing bright colors to distinguish themselves because identification of friendlies is more important than concealment. In the future with the proliferation of thermal systems is going to make visual camouflage even less important. Anyone who really requires visual concealment is going to be wearing something more substantial than basic cammies. Though it is still dumb to not choose a pattern that provides concealment just because it provides no negatives or added cost versus something like UCP.
yeah, i get that, thanks bro
you can camouflage grunts from thermals too, right?
i don't know about you but i think that IFF can be done if first world armies finally adopt google glass style shit with AR and a heads up display integrated into it, i know, inb4 muh meme-it would have to be made mil spec
It's pretty much impossible to camouflage infantry against thermal detection because of the laws of thermodynamics and current material science. Though thermal camouflage would be much more valuable than visual.
don't thirdies wrap themselves in space blankets that work well against low resolution thermals on drones like the ones the troops would inandvertedly end up using because of space and energy constraints? picrel
I disagree with that last part. I see a lot of drone footage from Ukraine and it can be hard to see soldiers at times because of the camo. If they weren't wearing identifying arm bands it would be very hard to notice them.
The point is that they are wearing armbands because identification is more important than concealment.
so you are going to tell me this colorpalette
thats a few shades off of this urban tracks piece isnt correct but the famously gray ucp is based upon urban tracks where the colors aint right and somehow it isnt a printing mistake?
I'm telling you Natick intentionally took the same colors from Urban Track sans the black and the story about the colors being chosen because they are found in all environments is a lie by the army, and that color palettes found online are never accurate because of the nature of digital displays.
Wearing space blankets isn't practical as a uniform because you still need an airgap between the body and the mylar, and it won't work against modern thermal systems anyways.
>modern thermal systems
excuse me if i'm wrong, but aren't infantry thermal systems constrained massively by weight, space and energy which would make them not as powerful as these modern systems?
Also tarps are rather okay at concealing Against those optics, but a tarp in UCP is going to be rather bad at concealing anything since you can’t really dirty it up right
Any modern handheld system will defeat it. You need an airgap between your camouflage layer and the heatsource otherwise it will absorb the thermal energy and no longer be camouflage. As for mylar, even if it can hide from modern thermal handheld devices it still reflects visible light and so visual detection becomes a problem again. Mylar uniforms just aren't practical.
oh, ok. well what a shame
Not what I meant. Camo tarps are usually used to conceal positions, for example. A tarp right over a fighting hole or skirmish trench. That would have the air gap needed to help against thermal detection and it more practical than a shitty mylar uniform, since it doubles as shelter and poncho as well. And, if in a good camo, can conceal rather well and breakup the shape of whatever you’re concealing
This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about concealing infantry outside of a prepared position because the thread is about uniforms. If you're in a prepared position of course you can conceal from thermal imaging, but what happens when you need to move?
Yeah, but not everyone is gonna have thermals at all times and most of the time, especially infantry patrols, they rely on visual sighting, and a camo helps a lot for that. Plus camo breaking up your shape helps when shit is going down. It won’t make you invincible, but that extra half second it takes for an enemy to aim down and shoot at you already makes it worth its weight in gold. Plus a great camo and bad camo cost about the same so why skimp out?
I'm not arguing against camouflage or saying UCP is good I think that's what the other anon is saying. My point is that camouflage patterns themselves are mostly a meme because the miniscule differences between them don't really have any real world impacts, they mostly serve as something to make a military distinct and look different. You will get the same effect wearing French CCE as you will American woodland or British DPM. At any distance past 300 meters if someone is wearing any muted color palette and trying to not be seen they won't be seen, unless you have something like thermal imaging which is becoming more prevalent.
Ah okay then yeah i suppose, i must’ve confused you with the other guy then
Though fighting holes themselves will be difficult to conceal. When you dig into the earth you introduce air into the soil changing its thermal properties. They use thermal imaging to find graves.
Oh of course, but you still gotta conceal them. And any bit helps
>this thread again
You could judge the pattern based on what a couple of pogues look like against a white background. Or you could judge it based on what we, the guys who were out every day getting dirty in the moondust, looked like. UCP is much maligned, but was ultimately as effective as a camo pattern can be.
Which is to say... not very effective. The Taliban always knew more or less precisely where we were and where we were going. Multicam wouldn't have changed that.
Yeah but why settle for a shitty camo if that’s the case? The marines use a way better camo and lose nothing by using it
Wow it fits into it's environment when dirty. Just wear a dirty uniform at all times.
Surely the brass will let everyone’s uniforms be dirty as fuck when working
You really just don't get it. Your average infantryman isn't hanging out with "the brass." You don't even see a fucking general when deployed. Ever. Why? Because you are too busy going outside the wire, looking to close with and destroy the enemy. Your uniform is always dirty because you are always outside the wire, sometimes for weeks at a time. If you're a pogue, you might catch the eye of some self-important general or colonel or whatever, so your uniform should probably be clean. Camouflage pattern doesn't matter for these people. If you aren't getting your uniform dirty, you aren't in a position for your camouflage pattern to even matter in the first place. If you are, your uniform is dirty. It's as simple as that.
It's not that shitty. It really just wasn't. It was fine. As far as priorities go for the average grunt deployed to a combat zone, it's literally the furthest thing from your mind. You'd much rather be carrying a few less pounds on your back than worry about what color your clothes are.
I would much rather have a uniform that works right away than one that has to get dirty to work.
That's because you're theorycrafting on the internet, and have served in a peacetime military if you've served at all. I'm trying to tell you it really doesn't matter. Camouflage patterns are the biggest nothingburger debate in the entire sphere of military enthusiasm.
Seeing bright gray blobs doesn't matter. Sure buddy. That's everyone uses it right?
Does this
look like a "bright gray blob" to you? Are you just trying to troll or are you just genuinely retarded?
No because it's covered in dirt. I want something to work without needing to be covered in dirt.
Because combat takes place in sterile boxes, right?
Because people don't roll around in dirt before going out.
How would you know?
The fundamental assumption of your entire argument is that camouflage pattern matters. It really doesn't. I don't know what to tell you except that the hill you're dying on is one that doesn't matter at all. You want a camouflage pattern that "works" when it's super clean and brand new, and my argument is that it really doesn't matter all that much if it "works" at all. From this baseline, UCP was fine. I don't think it's the Best Camouflage Pattern to ever exist, but I don't really care if it is or isn't.
I don't know how to meet autists like you in the middle. My intuition says that this is primarily because you're not interested in a good faith discussion and are just trying to waste my time with shitposts.
You're right and every military is wrong.
Militaries are massive organizations that operate with a ton of institutional momentum. Every military thought the battleship was the backbone of the navy until WWII. Sometimes consensus isn't actually automatically correct.
I can't wait for us to go back to UCP. Multicam just blends in too well.
Even units that have more freedom to choose their uniforms use camouflage.
Where and when this photo was made?
Given the use of both UCP, M05 and Russians wearing old Flora camouflage*, it's probably between 2004 and 2008. As for where, the presence of Finns and what seems to be coniferous forest indicates it could possibly be a joint European armed forces exercise.
*I know the guy with the Russian flag patch is wearing Kamysh or Tigr camo, this could be before the Russians standardized their camo patterns or the guy in the back could be Belorussian. Either way it fits the supposed timeframe.
moron how hard is it to understand
>shit camo (ucp)+local dirt= okay camo
>good camo+local dirt= amazing camo
Do you think the soldier in UCP would be the easiest to find in the woods?
It doesn't just look bad, it's embarrassing to wear. JFC.
always get a chuckle out of the two reservist's reaction
You say that like company level leadership isn’t just as gay if not gayer than division level leadership like generals.
Anyway, I disagree that it was fine. It was genuinely inferior to contemporary camouflages and even the predecessor. sure camo isn’t the most important thing on the planet, but it’s already hard enough to cover and conceal as an infantryman, with a rather shit camo, that just makes it worse, especially when all your gear is that same camo. You could say with dirt it’s okay, but so is marpat or dpm or fleck, and they’re already great on their own so with local dirt they’re way better than UCP for the same cost. And the US army doesn’t just exist for COIN operations, they still have to train and prepare for modern warfare with near peer enemies. Meaning concealment is extremely important, and a shit camo does not help
>muh its supposed to be dirty
just use feldgrau then instead of wasting money printing a useless pattern
sovl = nostalgia value
ie
"this gear has SOVL because it looks like 90's swat" t. guy that grew up in the 90s
Wasn't the original idea that UCP was "universal" only that it was meant for accessories like MOLLE attachments, pouches, backpacks etc? Like how Marines use solid coyote-brown equipment, that matches with both their woodland and desert MARPAT?
Then some genius made it the whole uniform color.
No. This was not the idea. When the army began looking to replace UCP they had this idea, have a transition pattern for gear and for the uniform, and then bookend woodland and arid pattern uniforms while still using the transitional pattern gear. They abandoned the idea, but it's where multicam arid ND tropical come from.
My country adopted a uniform like this so you burgers would like us more. It glows in the woods.
Imagine this in Ukraine. Gay blobs everywhere.
UCP is really good at identifying friendly soldiers because no one uses those colors. If you see a big grey blob, he's probably friendly. If you see woodland or desert, you're not sure if it's friendly or not.
>BRO OUR WARFIGHTERS™ IN MODERN CONFLICTS WILL MOSTLY BE FIGHTING IN CITIES BRO. ALL CITIES HAVE THE SAME URBAN COLOR PATTERNS. OUR WARFIGHTERS™ WILL ONLY NEED ONE UNIVERSAL PATTERN AND THEY'LL ABLE TO BLEND IN ANY SITUATION OUR WARFIGHTERS™ WILL BE IN.
>nothingburger
This one anon is seriously arguing against the camouflage?
I don’t even wanna be a dick, like his arguement has merit to an extent, Camo isn’t the end all be all, but it’s definitely better than nothing and a shitty camo that needs to be dirty to work is shit. As for Ukraine, we don’t really suffer from lack of communications and optics as much as those two sides do, so we can conceal our positions more effectively without needing bright letters and hi vis shit on us, so that arguement falls flat
After the army decided to adopt multimeme guys... This looks kinda sovlful to me in retrospect
More evidence of my theory that 'sovl' means 'looks like shit and has objective downsides.' See the 'quadrails have sovl' losers for another example of this
Soul and kino have lost all their meaning
that anon is correct. camo patters are mostly a meme and UCP ineffectiveness is blown out of proportion. modern uniforms and camos are mostly a military fashion statement.
i like multicam as much as the next guy but i can find a dozen pics where guys in multicam don't blend with the background and a dozen pics of ucp guys that do.
>i can find a dozen pics where guys in multicam don't blend with the background
post it
Btfo
I thought you were going to dump a bunch of pictures...
>We have to justify our gigantic bloated budget or else we will get cuts
ID on the boots on the right?