What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna?

What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna? Why concentrate all the guns and many civilians in one place? Most of the guns were light flak useless against strategic bombers anyway. They're impressive but are they just another example of German size-autism?

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Soft thing gets put inside the hard thing to protect it. To protect it against more tactical strikes lighter and quicker responding guns cover the heavy guns that ward off heavier strikes from hurting the Squishies inside

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    yeah

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Like most megaprojects in late war Germany, it was make-work to keep engineers away from the front lines. If the US had you bumrushing Mexicans with an empty M14 you'd be coming up with looney tunes projects to stay employed too.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    it put the guns higher up so they could hit the bombers easilier

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There are some merits to this setup. Higher than all the buildings around for better angles, protected from shrapnel and bombs hitting beside but below it. Needs direct hits to disable which until very late in the war would have been hard to do

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If you make it taller you can achieve a smaller footprint>smaller target for bombardments

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Primarily big ass air raid shelters with guns.
    IIRC the had 8 Flak 40 guns which could shoot down bombers.
    The ones in Berlin formed a triangle the the firing arcs covered most of the city IIRC.

    Also they served as strongholds.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Pretty sure the Germans never envisioned battling the Red Army in the streets of Berlin when these were built.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I mean apparently they did slow the reds down significantly.
        The allies also had problems getting rid of them in Berlin. Took multiple attempts to blow them up and half of one is still standing today. They didn't even try with the ones in Hamburg.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    somebody in another thread said building up a fortress is easier than tunneling down a fortress idk tho

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The goal was to make the battery you put on top more effective.
      By elevating it you guarantee that your batteries line of fire is always clear.
      You can integrate radar control and other fancy stuff like ammo elevators.
      Your battery is completely safe from anything from a direct hit.
      you also give a very visible symbol of you trying to keep the people in the city safe because you build a massive reinforced AA tower that also serves as a air raid shelter.

      the germans build both dug in shelters and surface bunkers for shelters.
      in part because when you have ton of concrete, a organization devoted to building bunkers and lots of slave labor. Those bunkers are very easy and relatively fast to build.
      if you want to dig a shelter you also have take into account the soil you are digging in.
      Berlin is mostly sandy soils and would take concrete bracing anyway.
      the real autism is them building smoker compartments in their shelters because god forbid you get some second hand smoke while your cities is being flattened

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna?
      To shoot Flak

      >Why concentrate all the guns and many civilians in one place?
      They didnt, multiple towers and shelters. But the flaktowers were resistant to any bombs dropped, and there were a lot of bombs being dropped. Plus better elevation and angles of fire.

      It was probably easier to build the fortress than it was to level it, i bet the cost in shells to destroy it was more than the cost to build it, its just a star fort, armies (used to) throw those up all the time. With that amount of ordnance it probably doesnt matter what was there or not there, but if you're going to fight you may as well have a properly built fortification, if the presence of a fortification attracts fire then that too has served a purpose, and lessened fire on the trenches.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      oh my gyatt deadass unguided drones were so extra

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    They built a luxury apartment on top of this one near where i live. Actually pretty neat

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      is that one of the radar centers?

      Part of the German military planning was for a territorial state in a perpetual of battle-readiness, mobilized at all times. Fortifications were constructed with the same basic thinking as medieval castles- put one everywhere you think you might want one, over-build it, and move on to the next.
      Nazi Germany's first end goal was all of Europe totally subjugated under armed control of the military in all places at once in a strictly regulated and consistent manner that allowed for maximum efficiency and centralized visibility and control/ They were quite serious about the totalitarian state and thought it was a very fine idea.
      >tl;dr Fortress Europa was a real thing that almost happened

      the one problem with your reasoning is that those where only build inside Germany and annexed Austria.
      If they where meant to be a instrument of subjugation they'd have build one right in the Jardin du Luxembourg behind the french senate.
      The captured capitals in western europe got bombed regularly because they where rail hubs.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        They placed high-priority on building them in major German cities first. You have to keep in mind that you have to placate/subjugate even the German population to remain in power. Berlin was being bombed as early as 1940.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >problem with your reasoning
        It's a matter of record. Look up 'Festung Europa plans', they were quite explicit.

        They placed high-priority on building them in major German cities first. You have to keep in mind that you have to placate/subjugate even the German population to remain in power. Berlin was being bombed as early as 1940.

        Correct, One of the interesting things about the Nazi regime was that it planned to implement the same strict controls over all Germans as well as non-Germans. Aliens would be second-class citizens to the Germans, of course, but the Germans would not be first-class citizens in their own country, they would all be slaves of the state before all else.
        Most conquering civilizations don't do that, they conquer and subjugate so their own people can go buck wild and live it up, but not so the Nazis.
        It's one of the enduring fascinations to the regime.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/7feUuYT.jpg

      >What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna
      to be an excellent platform for building condos on top of

      https://i.imgur.com/4Kz3XdN.jpg

      neat,brutalism,metal as frick,kinda depressing and built to last forever. I wonder what the layout looks like on the inside.

      https://i.imgur.com/8cm7403.jpg

      Don't mind me, just posting a picture of trees.

      Reminds me of a co-op building/condo here in montreal called habitat 67 that was built for the worlds fair in well 1967... I've been inside two of these. Its cool basically you "buy" these cubes to live in it can be one or like 6 cubes. They're really cheap to buy too, however oh my frick the co-op fees dude the cheapest is like I think 35k a year...... But its a world famous building and it has a bunch of shit inside it. Also every co-op has space outside to grow shit. It also looks absolutely fricking bonkers in person shits huge. Its really comfy on the inside from the places I've been in, its technically not in montreal but slightly off the island across from old montreal/downtown there is a bridge you can walk/cycle across the canal along with 2 for cars a tad more off there is also a bus. But the land near it isn't really built up its just condo parasites that built near the building for the view of habitat 67 and looking at downtown from the river.

      You can legit buy a cube for as low as 100k but once again the condo fees are insane. But I mean it is a co-op you're buying into way more than just a condo theres gaurds 247 staff for everything power/plumbing/etc people for all the plants&trees there is a corner store and some other stuff, I think it also has a daycare which is also "free"(like most daycares in Quebec)
      I would so love to live here but frick those fees are insane. Since its a co-op you cant like drop 100k on shit and claim its worth 2m more now. People also move in an end up hating it reselling, then you have families that have lived there since the 70's the grandchildren have taken over the place. The fees are lower for the longer you have lived their.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_67?useskin=vector
      It also has a huge ass lego set that like several hundred dollars

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Part of the German military planning was for a territorial state in a perpetual of battle-readiness, mobilized at all times. Fortifications were constructed with the same basic thinking as medieval castles- put one everywhere you think you might want one, over-build it, and move on to the next.
    Nazi Germany's first end goal was all of Europe totally subjugated under armed control of the military in all places at once in a strictly regulated and consistent manner that allowed for maximum efficiency and centralized visibility and control/ They were quite serious about the totalitarian state and thought it was a very fine idea.
    >tl;dr Fortress Europa was a real thing that almost happened

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Would those things work in the modern day and age?
      Maybe against drone spam?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Modern US air power would evaporate them, but anything less they would have a good niche as a strong point to take shelter from drone spam and ground attack alike.
        I could see a country like Pakistan, Taiwan, or Vietnam wanting a structure like that.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I think against a shithole like Russia that relies on massive artillery spam and can't into precision weapons they would be very powerful.
        Vuhledar and Avdiivka have been such meatgrinders because Ukrainians hold positions that are elevated and can't be easily destroyed that allow them to see attacks coming and direct artillerry on to them from distance.
        Ringing a city like Bakhmut with a dozen of these would probably render it untakeable by Russia.
        Against a NATO state, you wouldn't even get your radio set up before a PGM flew through your window.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      That was not Nazi Germany's end goal.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        this is complete bullshit, where did you get this from? anime?

        It was. They said it themselves, at the the time. Did you think they were going conquer an entire landmass and then be like "lol ok have fun byebye"
        >from anime
        No, I read the plans for Festung Europa written by the actual Nazis during the actual war

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      this is complete bullshit, where did you get this from? anime?

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You have to be 18+ to be here kid

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Four twin 12,8cm Flak 40s (8 guns in total) per tower is not to scoff at and most importantly (only one Anon mentioned itso far) was the capability of the towers to act as a fire control center.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      To be fair, the fire control / targeting systems were housed in seperate towers near the main tower.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Eight guns when the RAF could put a thousand bombers into one raid ain't much.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >could
        key word there anon. They were not meant to be the only batteries, there were numerous other batteries in around any other kraut city. The zwilling 12.8 cm guns fired ridiculously fast too. max of a round every three seconds per barrel I believe

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      They were huge wastes of resources and not particularly effective. The main German counter to bombers were fighters their AAA was never very good

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        AA guns are the fleet in being of air defense. They didn't score many kills compared to the planes that could go up to where the bombers were, but their presence forced the bombers to fly higher which results in less accuracy or put themselves at greater risk to hit a precise target.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >They didn't score many kills compared to the planes that could go up to where the bombers were
          flak scored more kills than fighters overall, though

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I stand corrected then, but the rest of my point also stands. However, I assume you're including Allie flak in that which had substantial advantages over German stuff, as well as getting to slap relatively untrained nips and huns since they flew their aces to death instead of rotating them to training duties.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >However, I assume you're including Allie flak in that which had substantial advantages over German stuff
              most allies losses over germany were mostly to flak as well
              losses to fighters were only higher than flak in 1943, they equalized in 1944, then dropped after mid-1944 when the germans ran out of fighters

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >ran out of fighters
                ran out of trained pilots. They had thousands of brand-new planes in storage.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >They had thousands of brand-new planes in storage.
                most german airplanes were used to replace the ones that were shot down
                and they were only able to make those by not producing any aircraft with more than 2 engines

                they were absolutely running out of both planes and pilots

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                At the end of the war the allies found literally thousands of factory-fresh aircraft of all types dispersed around the country. Aircraft production was not the bottleneck the allies planners thought it was, it was synthetic fuel production. Without it the new German pilots with a few dozen hours of flight-time under their belts stood little chance against US rookie pilots with a thousand hours of flight time in the Midwest.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >At the end of the war the allies found literally thousands of factory-fresh aircraft of all types dispersed around the country.
                and millions of soldiers surrendered at the end of the war fighting over the country
                and yet manpower was considered a chronic issue
                germany losing planes was an actual problem, they just chose to vastly reduce the number of flights each plane had to fly to preserve the new planes they had

                > Without it the new German pilots with a few dozen hours of flight-time under their belts stood little chance against US rookie pilots with a thousand hours of flight time in the Midwest.

                >Aircraft production was not the bottleneck the allies planners thought it was
                aircraft turnover was high enough that the germans admitted is was an issue

                >Without it the new German pilots with a few dozen hours of flight-time under their belts stood little chance against US rookie pilots with a thousand hours of flight time in the Midwest.
                the germans were having shortages of everything, of which aircraft was one of them

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                And manpower was the chronic issue for the Luftwaffe, too. No trained pilots. No fuel to train the pilots with. Thousands of brand new, pristine planes sitting around, unuseable.

                >they just chose to vastly reduce the number of flights each plane had to fly
                They "chose" that because they didn't have the fuel and pilots to let them fly more.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >eight (8) 12.8cm guns vs. mass bomber formations
      >no HE-VT equivalent ammunition
      If it isn't USN-tier AA, good luck.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >12,8cm
      Pathetic

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Is that a 15 cm dual drum autoloader?

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Propaganda

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Don't mind me, just posting a picture of trees.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      What place?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        town called photoshop

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          It's in Heiligengeistfeld, Hamburg, and the same Flakturm as in

          https://i.imgur.com/7feUuYT.jpg

          >What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna
          to be an excellent platform for building condos on top of

          The retrofit was to turn it into a hotel.

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Because bombing cities is a Norm in those days.
    They are hardpoints for defence against Air and Land.
    Also house shelters for the population.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Wait a sec, I always thought that giant flak towers from MoH Airborne weren't real...

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    What are the scaffolds under the catwalk emplacements for?

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Being raised up off the ground like that protects them from near misses. You need to land a bomb right on top if you actually want to take out the guns which is far easier said than done with WW2 era accuracy.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Far more Allied planes were shot down by flak than by fighter planes.

    The accuracy and effectiveness of FLAK or anti-aircraft artillery fire was derided at the start of the war but it gained a healthy respect as the war dragged on. By 1942 15,000 88mm ( 3.46 in ) guns formed the bulk of heavy flak defenses for Germany. Large numbers of 37mm ( 1.47 in ) and 20mm ( 0.79 in ) guns filled the skies with shells during every air raid. Often arrayed in "belts" around a city or target 88s could fire 22 lb ( 10 kg ) shells up to 35,000 ft ( 10,600 m ) at a rate of 15 - 20 rounds per minute. The excellent 88mm ( 3.46 in ) gun proved very effective especially when radar was used to help with aiming. The shells exploding at a preset altitude sending metal splinters flying in all directions. Later groups of up to 40 heavy flak guns Grossbatterien fired rectangular patterns of shellbursts known as box barrages that proved very deadly to enemy bombers.

    In 1944 Flak accounted for 3,501 American planes destroyed, enemy fighters shot down about 600 less in the same time period. More flak guns gradually appeared, mainly the 128mm ( 5 in ) German Flak accounted for 50 of the 72 RAF bombers lost over Berlin on the night of March 24th, 1944. An incredible 56 bombers were destroyed or crippled by flak during a B-17 raid on Merseburg in November of 1944."

    Whatever the effectiveness of the expenditure of resources, the German Flak proved to be nightmare for Allied bomber crews. Bomber raids were tightly packed and pilots could not maneuver independently least they crash into other bombers in the formation. Some bombers simply disappeared in a massive fireball and huge cloud of smoke. This was relatively rare, but countless bombers were damaged and air crews killed or wounded by the resulting shrapnel.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >the shells exploding at a preset altitude sending metal splinters flying in all directions
      late war they found out just having impact fuzes was more effective because the timed shells had to bad quality controll/ to high tolerances

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Adding to the talking points of others, there's an economic angle to it. Making steel and cement is a more energy efficient use of coal than coal liquefaction into oil. Germany had an excess of coal and a shortage of oil.

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Would be nice to own one. A modern castle.

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >What was the point of these yuge flak towers the Germans built in Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna
    to be an excellent platform for building condos on top of

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Are there apartments in the actual flak tower?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        They are amazingly sturdy. The Russians tried to blow them up during and after the battle of Berlin. They were forced to grind their way around them instead, while eating heavy artillery fire from them all the while. These "symbols of western degeneracy" withstood every attempt at demolition. Whether that was just the poor quality of communist demolitions is hard to tell.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I think you replied to the wrong post

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Erm, it was the Brits that tried to demolish the Tiergarten tower after the war and had a ludicrously hard time of it.

          Like, their final attempt that collapsed only half of it consisted of them spending 10 weeks drilling holes into structural walls and pillars and placing some 40 tons of explosives throughout the whole thing.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Chad German Nazi block vs virgin commie blocks.
      I like germans a tad bit more now after seeing this pic.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      'BACK-FACTORY'....
      Is that a gym?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Back means baking in german

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          And 'factory' means what in german?
          That's not flesh nor bone - it makes no sense!

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Just denglisch, mixing of english words into german. they call cellphones "handys"

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    These were built to protect German cities from soviet low altitude bombers based in the islands off the coast of Lithuania and Lativa. They weren't expecting the baltics to fall as fast as they did historically.

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Idk but the MoH Airborne mission where you jump onto one is pretty ludokino

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      which one is that?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Which mission? Very last one

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I love airborne, despite being super arcade even compared to other MoH games. The flak tower in that game has to be like triple the size of a real one.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      that game was bretty fun and looked nice for its age. having to hold sprint while aiming to walk and not being able to take off upgrades was pretty annoying tho. Oh and frick the snipers in Varsity

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      the flak tower was so much bigger than actual one though

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    To their credit, the Flak Towers actually worked in sheltering their civilian population from bomber attacks. Even modern ground attack aircraft have a hard time assaulting skyscrapers, let alone something purpose-built to be a fortress like the flaks.

  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I see the towers are still dealing with flak so many years later.
    They just don't build them like they used to.

  27. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The world needs more flak towers.
    Just imagine one of these things with modern AA and countermeasures.
    >inb4 muh low footprint
    You don't need it when you can withstand at least a hit or two. Worst case scenario, you build it (or a mock) and make the enemy waste a million dollar guided munition on an empty tower.

  28. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    They were actually pretty good at deterring bombers and even kept the Red Army at bay. Until the Allies just went around them.

  29. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Their population centers were getting fired bombed, it made sense to have a bomb shelter and elevated turrets flak was one of their best anti-air defenses. Doing that sort of thing with fire bombs these days would be considered nearly unquestionably not justified. A lot of the damage done in the pacific theater was the results of firebombs and their structures being more vulnerable to fire.
    The majority of the towers got tore down after the war, not many got destroyed during it. They were obviously effective enough for the most part especially compared to other defensive structures like the Maginot line.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The flak towers were built in the early war after pinprick raids on Berlin by the RAF, no-one envisaged the fire-storms to come.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >The majority of the towers got tore down after the war, not many got destroyed during it.
      Why did they demolish them instead of repurposing them?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Because they're giant, ugly, concrete eyesores, it's that simple.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        For the same reason you find almost no bunkers of the atlantic wall in Germany, but plenty in Denmark, France and so on, the Allies demolished most of them, being autistic enough to even do it with concrete one-man air raid shelters.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Goal was to remove military installations from Germany, btw. Which is why i say removing those one man things was autistic, how dangerous can they be?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >how dangerous can they be?
            Anon

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          WTF was the point of this? So one random guy can survive a bombing raid?

  30. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >ground level battery with revetments
    Larger footprint with ammo stores, crewed area, etc. Vulnerable to nearby hits through fragmentation, blast damage, flying debris. Line of fire can be obstructed by trees, buildings, equipment.
    >elevated battery of reinforced concrete
    Ammunition and crew can be below the battery, giving it a smaller footprint, making it a harder targer. Guns are invulnerable to anything but a direct hit and harder to hit because the bomb has to land directly on them, any horizontal displacement will have the bomb hitting the side of the tower. Almost no risk of fragmentation or debris damage, less risk of blast damage from ground hits. Line of fire is always clear.

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