GPMG by definition MG that can be used on LMG and HMG role.
Mg34 with bipod is LMG (Germans among other things literally run around and fired Mg34 from the hip like Rambo).
Mg34 with tripod is HMG.
An automatic firearm engineered for high volume suppressing fire and forward mobility chambered in an intermediate cartridge. Typically but not always fires from an open bolt, is belt fed and has a barrel that can be easily swapped in the field.
FN Minimi >High maintenance >Decently reliable but finicky >Not much support as its older >Worn out internals >Chunky in the wrong places >Often complained about when asked about >Outchaded by older brother
>An automatic firearm engineered for high volume suppressing fire and forward mobility chambered in an intermediate cartridge. Typically but not always fires from an open bolt, is belt fed and has a barrel that can be easily swapped in the field. >in an intermediate cartridge
so close
They were notoriously fragile due to poor QC and low quality as the Spaniards cheaped out. The answer is the ultimax BTW, at least for intermediate cartridges
>They were notoriously fragile due to poor QC and low quality as the Spaniards cheaped out.
The fact nobody bothered to just buy the design for license production and have basically a 556 MG42 is fricking atrocious. This seems extremely capable and basically sidelined because of pure fricking moronation.
Ultimax 100, though it's not belt fed. If the new Mk9 turns out well, it's no contest.
>They were notoriously fragile due to poor QC and low quality as the Spaniards cheaped out.
The fact nobody bothered to just buy the design for license production and have basically a 556 MG42 is fricking atrocious. This seems extremely capable and basically sidelined because of pure fricking moronation.
The CETME L had the exact same problems (aside from the shitty bolt stop/release). The US made rifles by Marcolmar are decently reliable and durable, so one can only imagine what a competently-manufactured Ameli would be like, probably one of the best LMGs of its era.
https://i.imgur.com/FxeDiS5.jpg
>mogs the ultimax so hard the country that designed it gives up on it
This is the most fantastically moronic military procurement I can think of in the last decade.
I heard about those. But part of the PKM's advantages did come from the rimmed cartridge. I see the Poles wanted to keep the PKM and I get it but that UKM won't function the same sadly. It's a bit of a stopgap solution.
>But part of the PKM's advantages did come from the rimmed cartridge
No.The PK uses rimmed, cause that was standard cartridge in the Soviet army - the gun is designed to use the same belts as the older Dekteryov MG, so Kalashnikov gave it a claw to pull the cartridge from the belt. The RPD for instance is a push through.
i should have definitely just hosed him while moving the mouse across him
the mg3 doesn't fire until ~100ms after you click, with an additional delay after letting go
you should probably just forgive my timing being off by a few frames for the single shots BUT I DIGRESS
>virgin BACKGROUND-IN-TRYHARD-FPS-GAMES
>watches awesome video of an mg3 shredding some SERIOUS gnar >has to see some guy beltdumping from the shoulder like the fricking terminator >reminds him how he's unable to shred ANY gnar without first setting up a bipod and finding a suitable surface >becomes supremely jealous and writes a post to cyberbully the guy in the video >low-effort 3 line pussypost comes across as so meaningless it doesn't even qualify as snarky
vs
>chad BACKGROUND-IN-SANDBOX-GAMES
>frick around in garry's mod with the goal of having a laugh >the comedic potential of the game snowballs HARD in the presence of the IRL npcs who inhabit most of the servers >the more imaginative you are and the more you learn to do, the more it becomes an endless gold mine >eventually hold a polymath tier mastery surrounding the game >my comedy is IMPOSSIBLE to stop >for example, i have pretty much all the abilities from a good skinwalker greentext, >and can return to a server 5 or 6 seconds after being steamid banned >anyway i get talked into buying insurgency, and it's mostly just teams taking turns either crouchwalking towards known camp spots or being the ones camping >rent a $15 server and put my talents to good use >over a few months the server brings hundreds of hours of fun to a few dozen people >your post sucks compared to mine git gud nub, and you'll probably never have roleplayers spread cryptid style stories about the time they encountered you
here's a video from the time i shredded the gnar with osama bin laden by double kickflipping his camel onto the balcony AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND POST
MG3
but it needs a lua script to fight the muzzle climb before you can do rambo lmg things with it
After the M60E6 came out i barely use the MG3 anymore, it's fun to BRRRT but you don't get enough magazine to REALLY feel the power. M60 has that sweet, sweet low rate of fire that makes shooting it a blast.
Not sure if I can call it the best, as I've never used it to judge, but I heard good things about the Negev. Apparently, it's got good advantages over the M249.
That was what I was going to say. The Negev's adjustable gas block is necessary to run from magazines as well as belts. Otherwise, the KAC LAMG is neat too. Of course, this is only for LMGs; anything bigger and I change my vote to the Ohio Ordinance REAPR.
Basically the guy who designed it did so thinking: >The range 7.62x54 is wasted in most infantry, 7.62X25mm can go just as far in 99% of practical situations >The penetration of 7.62x54 is meaningless in most European urban environments since everything is brick and stone >Conclusion: equip everyone with SMGs, Nagants converted with Penderson devices, design a 7.62x25mm LMG and rifle that uses old Nagant barrels.
Is this thing the first ever ULMG?
There's a scale between injury and fatality so in a way he's really exploring which would be more useful in combat and the answer isn't obvious. Pistol and intermediate cartridges are near the center of this scale with pistol cartridges leaning toward injury and intermediate toward fatality. To me his thoughts were correct that 7.62x54 was overkill for most practical scenarios because of course the tradeoff you make as you increase the power of a round is weight and sending a soldier to the med bay is sometimes worse for his army than just killing him. However I get a feeling that a pistol cartridge takes this to such an extreme it might actually be worse than something in 7.62x54. I could be wrong though, it's an interesting idea either way.
7.62x25mm was unique in it's ballistics in that with heavy loadings the trajectory mimicked what we would consider a intermediate round out of longer barrels. At any practical range both kill or incapacitate, especially when no one has body armor.
>At any practical range both kill or incapacitate >Also you have 3x as much ammo.
I mean I completely agree, that's why I noted they're both near the center of the scale (both can kill or incapacitate) and the tradeoff is weight (the number of rounds that can be carried). Beyond that there's two things that concern me first being supersonic range. If you're in a combat zone where the average engagement distance is 100m pretty much everything is happening between 25m and 175m. For 7.62x25 this isn't a problem because the fastest of them remain supersonic until around 130m. When we change this to an average engagement of 300m though in other words most things happen between 75m and 525m that's a big problem. You absolutely want your suppressing fire to remain supersonic when it's near the enemy and this is where intermediate, particularly 5.56x45, shines. Standard M855 remains supersonic all the way from 0 to past 550 completely covering both of these typical combat zones. The second concern is dissimilar ammo within a squad. We could argue about the best cartridge for a squad's dedicated machine gun but for a standard infantry weapon the answer is much more obvious, assault rifles wipe the floor with SMGs/PCCs. To me it seems advantageous for both the standard infantry and the machine gunner to carry the same ammo not just for logistics but even sharing/scavenging ammo in the field.
The guy who invented it also worked on a device to convert nagant rifles into a mag fed 7.62x25 semiauto and/or select fire that used the existing mag well. With high powered SMG rounds it didn't even need to sights changed out to 300 meters. He even drew up plans for a new stock for the nagants that would give them a pistol grip and folding stock. It basically converted them into a assault rifle although i'd imagine it would look strange due to it still having a really long barrel. So rifle, SMG, pistols and LMG would all use the same ammo.
He wanted to keep 7.62x54 for crew served weapons at a company level, the only real change besides the nagant conversion would be the addition of a LMG.
Note it only weighed 5.5 kg, half the weight of a MG42 and the same as a AK-47 with the same number of rounds:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAD_machine_gun
Half the weight and 3x the ammo more than compensates for any deficiencies compared to a full sized round not to mention ease of construction, it was light enough to be simple blowback operated:
As cool as that is, it sounds like he was converting those nagants into PCC/SMG since one of the defining characteristics of an assault rifle is the use of intermediate cartridges. Also it's not always the case that a long barrel makes pistol cartridges better. For instance shooting .357sig down longer barrels significantly increases velocity up to around 12 to 15 inches but beyond that velocity starts to decrease.
2 months ago
Anonymous
A belt fed 22tcm would be interesting
A higher rate of fire could be achieved due to the shorter cartridge and barrel life would be much higher because of the greatly reduced powder charge. 40gr vmax at 2800fps is supersonic until 500 yards or so and will expand out to 300 yards.
2 months ago
Anonymous
He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge, the main nagant conversion he was pushing was the semi auto version. I've never heard of a SMG with a 29 inch barrel which is what his converted Nagants were not to mention they didn't think the full auto was needed. It had the range especially out of full sized barrels, he simply didn't think that there was any real difference between killing someone and inflicting a serious wound. In a era without body armor either round would incapacitate which ended up with the same result i.e a neutralized enemy soldier.
From the crappy translation i read years ago he wanted 4 of the LMGs (HSMGs, Heavy Sub Machine Guns?) per squad with less weight, raw materials and production time than the existing standard load. It would be a pretty massive increase in firepower.
The LAD as a idea (especially at the time) is really attractive, a 10lb belt feed with 1/3rd the ammo weight of 7.62x54? It only weighed about two lbs more than the rifles they carried. Given that they didn't really have a proper LMG at all i'd happily take something a fraction of the weight of a MG-42 with three times as much ammo. So what if it's twice as likely to wound instead of kill compared to a full sized round? They are still incapacitated and i have three times more chances to shoot them.
When you factor in how much ammo the rest of the squad could carry they would have a huge amount.
A belt fed 22tcm would be interesting
A higher rate of fire could be achieved due to the shorter cartridge and barrel life would be much higher because of the greatly reduced powder charge. 40gr vmax at 2800fps is supersonic until 500 yards or so and will expand out to 300 yards.
Yes it would, in this case 7.62x25 was the only option due to tooling, existing supply and his desire to convert Nagants along with making the HSMG.
HSMG, that's the official nomenclature now. If anyone doesn't like they can go shove a Blitzfighter up their Gavin Hole.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge
That's not really how that works, a SMG/PCC doesn't just get to identify as a assault rifle.
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
Just thought of something; say you had a platoon equipped this way. Could you have a assault squad where everyone had one? 12 guys with belt feeds just going nuts?
But if the goal with these (i'm not sure what to call these either maybe HSMG or UMG Ultralight Machine Gun) is to replace the assault rifles all together that's a different story. A common squad you might see today is something like 5 to 7 assault rifles, two of which have grenade launchers, 2 MGs and a DMR. If you shift that to 6 UMGs with 2 grenade launchers and 4 DMRs skipping the PCC all together that might be interesting. Right now a gunner carries up to 60 lbs of ammo, convert that to 22tcm like
A belt fed 22tcm would be interesting
A higher rate of fire could be achieved due to the shorter cartridge and barrel life would be much higher because of the greatly reduced powder charge. 40gr vmax at 2800fps is supersonic until 500 yards or so and will expand out to 300 yards.
was suggesting and you're getting close to 3000 rounds per soldier kek, 2000 if you want a lighter load. Also something I just thought of is you could put some incredibly effective suppressors on these things, literally all you would hear on the receiving end would be the supersonic cracks assuming the action isn't leaking too much gas.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah the 7.62x25 was a good choice for the compatibility while still being lighter than a full power or intermediate 7.62 cartridge but with everyone using 22 caliber intermediate cartridges now, pdw calibers are the logical choice for this niche.
>He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge
That's not really how that works, a SMG/PCC doesn't just get to identify as a assault rifle.
[...]
But if the goal with these (i'm not sure what to call these either maybe HSMG or UMG Ultralight Machine Gun) is to replace the assault rifles all together that's a different story. A common squad you might see today is something like 5 to 7 assault rifles, two of which have grenade launchers, 2 MGs and a DMR. If you shift that to 6 UMGs with 2 grenade launchers and 4 DMRs skipping the PCC all together that might be interesting. Right now a gunner carries up to 60 lbs of ammo, convert that to 22tcm like [...] was suggesting and you're getting close to 3000 rounds per soldier kek, 2000 if you want a lighter load. Also something I just thought of is you could put some incredibly effective suppressors on these things, literally all you would hear on the receiving end would be the supersonic cracks assuming the action isn't leaking too much gas.
A problem with using a pdw caliber is that concealment can turn into cover that an intermediate cartridge would punch through. It'll be less effective at suppression. A smaller faster caliber with steel cores could probably help
2 months ago
Anonymous
The use case for the LAD was specific for the era, no body armor and the main type of cover they were concerned about (Brick and stone construction) wasn't really penetrable by a full sized round anyway. Also the obvious issue with tooling and converting existing weapons to complete the concept.
Modern version? 5.7 mm belt feed. Or tungsten .17 HMR FMJ in a twin firing pin blowback design like the LAD but with a secondary lever action around the trigger guard to clear jams and misfires.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Lever action
Why not make a lever action as the primary wienering mechanism for any pistol/PDW sized belt feed? The leverage would make it easier to put into battery and it would be extremely easy to clear jams not to mention if it doesn't clear the jam it acts as a bolt hold open since these are going to be simple recoil operated anyway.
Is this thing the first ever ULMG?
There's a scale between injury and fatality so in a way he's really exploring which would be more useful in combat and the answer isn't obvious. Pistol and intermediate cartridges are near the center of this scale with pistol cartridges leaning toward injury and intermediate toward fatality. To me his thoughts were correct that 7.62x54 was overkill for most practical scenarios because of course the tradeoff you make as you increase the power of a round is weight and sending a soldier to the med bay is sometimes worse for his army than just killing him. However I get a feeling that a pistol cartridge takes this to such an extreme it might actually be worse than something in 7.62x54. I could be wrong though, it's an interesting idea either way.
>At any practical range both kill or incapacitate >Also you have 3x as much ammo.
I mean I completely agree, that's why I noted they're both near the center of the scale (both can kill or incapacitate) and the tradeoff is weight (the number of rounds that can be carried). Beyond that there's two things that concern me first being supersonic range. If you're in a combat zone where the average engagement distance is 100m pretty much everything is happening between 25m and 175m. For 7.62x25 this isn't a problem because the fastest of them remain supersonic until around 130m. When we change this to an average engagement of 300m though in other words most things happen between 75m and 525m that's a big problem. You absolutely want your suppressing fire to remain supersonic when it's near the enemy and this is where intermediate, particularly 5.56x45, shines. Standard M855 remains supersonic all the way from 0 to past 550 completely covering both of these typical combat zones. The second concern is dissimilar ammo within a squad. We could argue about the best cartridge for a squad's dedicated machine gun but for a standard infantry weapon the answer is much more obvious, assault rifles wipe the floor with SMGs/PCCs. To me it seems advantageous for both the standard infantry and the machine gunner to carry the same ammo not just for logistics but even sharing/scavenging ammo in the field.
The guy who invented it also worked on a device to convert nagant rifles into a mag fed 7.62x25 semiauto and/or select fire that used the existing mag well. With high powered SMG rounds it didn't even need to sights changed out to 300 meters. He even drew up plans for a new stock for the nagants that would give them a pistol grip and folding stock. It basically converted them into a assault rifle although i'd imagine it would look strange due to it still having a really long barrel. So rifle, SMG, pistols and LMG would all use the same ammo.
He wanted to keep 7.62x54 for crew served weapons at a company level, the only real change besides the nagant conversion would be the addition of a LMG.
Note it only weighed 5.5 kg, half the weight of a MG42 and the same as a AK-47 with the same number of rounds:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAD_machine_gun
Half the weight and 3x the ammo more than compensates for any deficiencies compared to a full sized round not to mention ease of construction, it was light enough to be simple blowback operated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Afanasyev
As cool as that is, it sounds like he was converting those nagants into PCC/SMG since one of the defining characteristics of an assault rifle is the use of intermediate cartridges. Also it's not always the case that a long barrel makes pistol cartridges better. For instance shooting .357sig down longer barrels significantly increases velocity up to around 12 to 15 inches but beyond that velocity starts to decrease.
He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge, the main nagant conversion he was pushing was the semi auto version. I've never heard of a SMG with a 29 inch barrel which is what his converted Nagants were not to mention they didn't think the full auto was needed. It had the range especially out of full sized barrels, he simply didn't think that there was any real difference between killing someone and inflicting a serious wound. In a era without body armor either round would incapacitate which ended up with the same result i.e a neutralized enemy soldier.
From the crappy translation i read years ago he wanted 4 of the LMGs (HSMGs, Heavy Sub Machine Guns?) per squad with less weight, raw materials and production time than the existing standard load. It would be a pretty massive increase in firepower.
The LAD as a idea (especially at the time) is really attractive, a 10lb belt feed with 1/3rd the ammo weight of 7.62x54? It only weighed about two lbs more than the rifles they carried. Given that they didn't really have a proper LMG at all i'd happily take something a fraction of the weight of a MG-42 with three times as much ammo. So what if it's twice as likely to wound instead of kill compared to a full sized round? They are still incapacitated and i have three times more chances to shoot them.
When you factor in how much ammo the rest of the squad could carry they would have a huge amount.
[...]
Yes it would, in this case 7.62x25 was the only option due to tooling, existing supply and his desire to convert Nagants along with making the HSMG.
HSMG, that's the official nomenclature now. If anyone doesn't like they can go shove a Blitzfighter up their Gavin Hole.
Just thought of something; say you had a platoon equipped this way. Could you have a assault squad where everyone had one? 12 guys with belt feeds just going nuts?
Additional note about the LAD guy; He also adapted his Nagant conversion to work with the standard 7.62x54 round and came up with a simple extension for the magazine turning it into a 10 shot 7.62x54 semiauto then later adapted it to convert Nagants into 7.62x39 semi autos, unfortunately Stalin liked Simonov better.
The SKS had no practical reason to exist and all the resources used on it were wasted simply due to Soviet politics i.e maybe Stalin didn't like the guys mustache or something like that.
The mg34
Not an LMG
>waaah not an lmg
then specifically define what a light machinegun is, Black person
It has to be light enough for his dyel noodle arm
GPMGs are by definition, not LMGs
No they aren't. moron.
GPMG by definition MG that can be used on LMG and HMG role.
Mg34 with bipod is LMG (Germans among other things literally run around and fired Mg34 from the hip like Rambo).
Mg34 with tripod is HMG.
has to shoot a small boolet like 5.56 and must be under like 20 pounds or something
An automatic firearm engineered for high volume suppressing fire and forward mobility chambered in an intermediate cartridge. Typically but not always fires from an open bolt, is belt fed and has a barrel that can be easily swapped in the field.
FN Minimi
>High maintenance
>Decently reliable but finicky
>Not much support as its older
>Worn out internals
>Chunky in the wrong places
>Often complained about when asked about
>Outchaded by older brother
It really is a Mini-me
>An automatic firearm engineered for high volume suppressing fire and forward mobility chambered in an intermediate cartridge. Typically but not always fires from an open bolt, is belt fed and has a barrel that can be easily swapped in the field.
>in an intermediate cartridge
so close
MG34 can serve in both the light and heavy roles, you underaged homosexual.
>7.92 mauser
>26 lbs empty
No, just no. It's in MMG (formerly GPMG) territory.
The bren gets called a LMG and it's not much lighter and uses calibers of similar dimensions.
>bren
another MMG, just like the MG34
>No, just no
have a nice day gay
KAC LAMG
Was gonna say your pic but I heard someone say they had quality control problems on here once
They were notoriously fragile due to poor QC and low quality as the Spaniards cheaped out. The answer is the ultimax BTW, at least for intermediate cartridges
>They were notoriously fragile due to poor QC and low quality as the Spaniards cheaped out.
The fact nobody bothered to just buy the design for license production and have basically a 556 MG42 is fricking atrocious. This seems extremely capable and basically sidelined because of pure fricking moronation.
>mogs the ultimax so hard the country that designed it gives up on it
Ultimax 100, though it's not belt fed. If the new Mk9 turns out well, it's no contest.
The CETME L had the exact same problems (aside from the shitty bolt stop/release). The US made rifles by Marcolmar are decently reliable and durable, so one can only imagine what a competently-manufactured Ameli would be like, probably one of the best LMGs of its era.
This is the most fantastically moronic military procurement I can think of in the last decade.
probably the PKM
This. I think the .308 PKMs that the Poles made are pure sex.
I heard about those. But part of the PKM's advantages did come from the rimmed cartridge. I see the Poles wanted to keep the PKM and I get it but that UKM won't function the same sadly. It's a bit of a stopgap solution.
>But part of the PKM's advantages did come from the rimmed cartridge
No.The PK uses rimmed, cause that was standard cartridge in the Soviet army - the gun is designed to use the same belts as the older Dekteryov MG, so Kalashnikov gave it a claw to pull the cartridge from the belt. The RPD for instance is a push through.
>PKM
You meant to say RPD since we're talking about light machine guns but I forgive you.
>bottomless pit
MG34/42
Everybody decided to copy it except the Spanish who got MG42 but 5.56.
The RPDizzle
The real answer.
LINDY! Get the frick out here
The FN Minimi?
MG3
but it needs a lua script to fight the muzzle climb before you can do rambo lmg things with it
>playing against braindead bots
>missing four times in a row
>records and uploads anyway
i should have definitely just hosed him while moving the mouse across him
the mg3 doesn't fire until ~100ms after you click, with an additional delay after letting go
you should probably just forgive my timing being off by a few frames for the single shots BUT I DIGRESS
>virgin BACKGROUND-IN-TRYHARD-FPS-GAMES
>watches awesome video of an mg3 shredding some SERIOUS gnar
>has to see some guy beltdumping from the shoulder like the fricking terminator
>reminds him how he's unable to shred ANY gnar without first setting up a bipod and finding a suitable surface
>becomes supremely jealous and writes a post to cyberbully the guy in the video
>low-effort 3 line pussypost comes across as so meaningless it doesn't even qualify as snarky
vs
>chad BACKGROUND-IN-SANDBOX-GAMES
>frick around in garry's mod with the goal of having a laugh
>the comedic potential of the game snowballs HARD in the presence of the IRL npcs who inhabit most of the servers
>the more imaginative you are and the more you learn to do, the more it becomes an endless gold mine
>eventually hold a polymath tier mastery surrounding the game
>my comedy is IMPOSSIBLE to stop
>for example, i have pretty much all the abilities from a good skinwalker greentext,
>and can return to a server 5 or 6 seconds after being steamid banned
>anyway i get talked into buying insurgency, and it's mostly just teams taking turns either crouchwalking towards known camp spots or being the ones camping
>rent a $15 server and put my talents to good use
>over a few months the server brings hundreds of hours of fun to a few dozen people
>your post sucks compared to mine git gud nub, and you'll probably never have roleplayers spread cryptid style stories about the time they encountered you
here's a video from the time i shredded the gnar with osama bin laden by double kickflipping his camel onto the balcony AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND POST
After the M60E6 came out i barely use the MG3 anymore, it's fun to BRRRT but you don't get enough magazine to REALLY feel the power. M60 has that sweet, sweet low rate of fire that makes shooting it a blast.
my vote goes to the MG-15
that is not a MG15 in the slightest
it does have a few modifications
PKM is pretty much everything M60 ever hoped to be
I say the Stoner 63 or a simplified LMG only version like the 81 is what the M60 wishes it was. The guys at Nam loved it.
Not sure if I can call it the best, as I've never used it to judge, but I heard good things about the Negev. Apparently, it's got good advantages over the M249.
damn it's chonky, why is it so chonky?
That was what I was going to say. The Negev's adjustable gas block is necessary to run from magazines as well as belts. Otherwise, the KAC LAMG is neat too. Of course, this is only for LMGs; anything bigger and I change my vote to the Ohio Ordinance REAPR.
>REAPR
Yeah that thing is pretty cool. Finally some actual railspace on a weapon that can do work past 1000 yards kek
fn mag
The one never made, the belt fed 7.62x25mm.
Basically the guy who designed it did so thinking:
>The range 7.62x54 is wasted in most infantry, 7.62X25mm can go just as far in 99% of practical situations
>The penetration of 7.62x54 is meaningless in most European urban environments since everything is brick and stone
>Conclusion: equip everyone with SMGs, Nagants converted with Penderson devices, design a 7.62x25mm LMG and rifle that uses old Nagant barrels.
Is this thing the first ever ULMG?
There's a scale between injury and fatality so in a way he's really exploring which would be more useful in combat and the answer isn't obvious. Pistol and intermediate cartridges are near the center of this scale with pistol cartridges leaning toward injury and intermediate toward fatality. To me his thoughts were correct that 7.62x54 was overkill for most practical scenarios because of course the tradeoff you make as you increase the power of a round is weight and sending a soldier to the med bay is sometimes worse for his army than just killing him. However I get a feeling that a pistol cartridge takes this to such an extreme it might actually be worse than something in 7.62x54. I could be wrong though, it's an interesting idea either way.
7.62x25mm was unique in it's ballistics in that with heavy loadings the trajectory mimicked what we would consider a intermediate round out of longer barrels. At any practical range both kill or incapacitate, especially when no one has body armor.
Also you have 3x as much ammo.
>At any practical range both kill or incapacitate
>Also you have 3x as much ammo.
I mean I completely agree, that's why I noted they're both near the center of the scale (both can kill or incapacitate) and the tradeoff is weight (the number of rounds that can be carried). Beyond that there's two things that concern me first being supersonic range. If you're in a combat zone where the average engagement distance is 100m pretty much everything is happening between 25m and 175m. For 7.62x25 this isn't a problem because the fastest of them remain supersonic until around 130m. When we change this to an average engagement of 300m though in other words most things happen between 75m and 525m that's a big problem. You absolutely want your suppressing fire to remain supersonic when it's near the enemy and this is where intermediate, particularly 5.56x45, shines. Standard M855 remains supersonic all the way from 0 to past 550 completely covering both of these typical combat zones. The second concern is dissimilar ammo within a squad. We could argue about the best cartridge for a squad's dedicated machine gun but for a standard infantry weapon the answer is much more obvious, assault rifles wipe the floor with SMGs/PCCs. To me it seems advantageous for both the standard infantry and the machine gunner to carry the same ammo not just for logistics but even sharing/scavenging ammo in the field.
The guy who invented it also worked on a device to convert nagant rifles into a mag fed 7.62x25 semiauto and/or select fire that used the existing mag well. With high powered SMG rounds it didn't even need to sights changed out to 300 meters. He even drew up plans for a new stock for the nagants that would give them a pistol grip and folding stock. It basically converted them into a assault rifle although i'd imagine it would look strange due to it still having a really long barrel. So rifle, SMG, pistols and LMG would all use the same ammo.
He wanted to keep 7.62x54 for crew served weapons at a company level, the only real change besides the nagant conversion would be the addition of a LMG.
Note it only weighed 5.5 kg, half the weight of a MG42 and the same as a AK-47 with the same number of rounds:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAD_machine_gun
Half the weight and 3x the ammo more than compensates for any deficiencies compared to a full sized round not to mention ease of construction, it was light enough to be simple blowback operated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Afanasyev
As cool as that is, it sounds like he was converting those nagants into PCC/SMG since one of the defining characteristics of an assault rifle is the use of intermediate cartridges. Also it's not always the case that a long barrel makes pistol cartridges better. For instance shooting .357sig down longer barrels significantly increases velocity up to around 12 to 15 inches but beyond that velocity starts to decrease.
A belt fed 22tcm would be interesting
A higher rate of fire could be achieved due to the shorter cartridge and barrel life would be much higher because of the greatly reduced powder charge. 40gr vmax at 2800fps is supersonic until 500 yards or so and will expand out to 300 yards.
He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge, the main nagant conversion he was pushing was the semi auto version. I've never heard of a SMG with a 29 inch barrel which is what his converted Nagants were not to mention they didn't think the full auto was needed. It had the range especially out of full sized barrels, he simply didn't think that there was any real difference between killing someone and inflicting a serious wound. In a era without body armor either round would incapacitate which ended up with the same result i.e a neutralized enemy soldier.
From the crappy translation i read years ago he wanted 4 of the LMGs (HSMGs, Heavy Sub Machine Guns?) per squad with less weight, raw materials and production time than the existing standard load. It would be a pretty massive increase in firepower.
The LAD as a idea (especially at the time) is really attractive, a 10lb belt feed with 1/3rd the ammo weight of 7.62x54? It only weighed about two lbs more than the rifles they carried. Given that they didn't really have a proper LMG at all i'd happily take something a fraction of the weight of a MG-42 with three times as much ammo. So what if it's twice as likely to wound instead of kill compared to a full sized round? They are still incapacitated and i have three times more chances to shoot them.
When you factor in how much ammo the rest of the squad could carry they would have a huge amount.
Yes it would, in this case 7.62x25 was the only option due to tooling, existing supply and his desire to convert Nagants along with making the HSMG.
HSMG, that's the official nomenclature now. If anyone doesn't like they can go shove a Blitzfighter up their Gavin Hole.
>He was basically treating the 7.62x25 as a intermediate cartridge
That's not really how that works, a SMG/PCC doesn't just get to identify as a assault rifle.
But if the goal with these (i'm not sure what to call these either maybe HSMG or UMG Ultralight Machine Gun) is to replace the assault rifles all together that's a different story. A common squad you might see today is something like 5 to 7 assault rifles, two of which have grenade launchers, 2 MGs and a DMR. If you shift that to 6 UMGs with 2 grenade launchers and 4 DMRs skipping the PCC all together that might be interesting. Right now a gunner carries up to 60 lbs of ammo, convert that to 22tcm like
was suggesting and you're getting close to 3000 rounds per soldier kek, 2000 if you want a lighter load. Also something I just thought of is you could put some incredibly effective suppressors on these things, literally all you would hear on the receiving end would be the supersonic cracks assuming the action isn't leaking too much gas.
Yeah the 7.62x25 was a good choice for the compatibility while still being lighter than a full power or intermediate 7.62 cartridge but with everyone using 22 caliber intermediate cartridges now, pdw calibers are the logical choice for this niche.
A problem with using a pdw caliber is that concealment can turn into cover that an intermediate cartridge would punch through. It'll be less effective at suppression. A smaller faster caliber with steel cores could probably help
The use case for the LAD was specific for the era, no body armor and the main type of cover they were concerned about (Brick and stone construction) wasn't really penetrable by a full sized round anyway. Also the obvious issue with tooling and converting existing weapons to complete the concept.
Modern version? 5.7 mm belt feed. Or tungsten .17 HMR FMJ in a twin firing pin blowback design like the LAD but with a secondary lever action around the trigger guard to clear jams and misfires.
>Lever action
Why not make a lever action as the primary wienering mechanism for any pistol/PDW sized belt feed? The leverage would make it easier to put into battery and it would be extremely easy to clear jams not to mention if it doesn't clear the jam it acts as a bolt hold open since these are going to be simple recoil operated anyway.
Just thought of something; say you had a platoon equipped this way. Could you have a assault squad where everyone had one? 12 guys with belt feeds just going nuts?
In action, devastating.
In reality, lots of denied VA claims.
The mythical SureFire MGX as designed by Jim Sullivan.
The rpd without a doubt.
Easily the PM1910 variant of the Maxim Gun, it's the Mosin of machine guns
long as water is flowing and you have infinite bullets this gun MG will never fail you
LSAT
>LSAT
The only post talking about the superior option in the entire thread. The rest is drooling morons
M250
Additional note about the LAD guy; He also adapted his Nagant conversion to work with the standard 7.62x54 round and came up with a simple extension for the magazine turning it into a 10 shot 7.62x54 semiauto then later adapted it to convert Nagants into 7.62x39 semi autos, unfortunately Stalin liked Simonov better.
The SKS had no practical reason to exist and all the resources used on it were wasted simply due to Soviet politics i.e maybe Stalin didn't like the guys mustache or something like that.
The MG42 family. No matter if the OG gun or modern descendants.