Personal defense weapons (PDWs) are a class of compact, magazine-fed, submachine gun-like automatic firearms designed to fire rifle-like cartridges. Most PDWs fire a small-caliber (generally less than 8 mm or 0.31 in in bullet diameter), high-velocity centerfire bottleneck cartridge resembling a scaled-down intermediate cartridge, essentially making them an "in-between" hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine.
The use of these rifle-like cartridges gives the PDWs much better ballistic performance (effective range, external ballistics and armor-penetrating capability) than conventional submachine guns, which fire larger-caliber but slower and less aerodynamic handgun cartridges. The low recoil of these "sub-intermediate" cartridges also makes muzzle jumps on PDWs (which typically have short barrels) much easier to handle than short-barreled rifles, especially when shooting in automatic fire or burst fire.
The name describes the weapon's original conceptual role: as a compact but powerful small arm that can be conveniently carried for personal defense, usually by support personnel behind the front line such as military engineers, logistic drivers, medical specialists, artillery crews, or signallers.
I don't give a frick about guns anymore. This board should be about artillery and drones.
"sub-intermediate" is all bullshit.
The soviet's unironically had the right idea with the krink.
>krink
Kys
t. someone who shits on 5.56 SBRs in any other thread
5.56 SBRs are good. The problem with super short ARs specifically is that pistol length gas systems suck with 5.56 so you get stuck with 10.3 as your minimum.
Additionally ARs lose out on the ability to fire while folded so the LAW folder is a sad cope.
If the use case allows for a 10.3" barrel on a gun that doesn't fold and you're shooting threats at personal defense distances then yeah the mk18 is great.
>pistol length gas systems suck with 5.56 so you get stuck with 10.3 as your minimum
10.3 is the minimum for 5.56 because velocity starts taking a big fat shit below that.go ahead and put an 8" barrel on your 5.45 AK and tell me how pistol-tier muzzle energy works in the real world.
>10.3 is the minimum for 5.56 because velocity starts taking a big fat shit below that
10.3" is the minimum because it's was determined to be the bleeding edge of reliability for carbine length gas systems.
>go ahead and put an 8" barrel on your 5.45 AK and tell me how pistol-tier muzzle energy works in the real world
5.45 ammo still tumbles out of an 8" barrel at the reduced velocities so it works very well in the real world
>b-b-but what about an 8" .223 that's still pistol-tier energy
it literally has over 50% more energy than an 8" 9mm
you're both a homosexual and a moron.
>it literally has over 50% more energy than an 8" 9mm
>50% more energy
>than the weakest possible pistol round that performs to FBI standards
.40 S&W has the same ME as 5.56 out of an 8" barrel. .357 Sig 90gr even approaches the velocity of 77gr OTM. It is putting out pistol levels of energy. 10mm would even significantly outperform it.
>>than the weakest possible pistol round that performs to FBI standards
22lr performs to FBI standards with the right ammo.
Additionally, 8" 9mm was used as the example because that's an MP5 (the thing being replaced with SBRs).
what 40sw/357sig/10mm PDWs did you have in mind?
Nobody is making a higher power pistol caliber PDW because 10" 5.56 is just better. NATO had the right idea with the PDW concept only because the gun is incredibly fricking tiny. If you don't need a concealable weapon that you can shoulder, you get a carbine. The 2" OAL you save by going down to an 8" barrel is not worth the trade-off in velocity.
I think we agree then?
My original point was a krink is good even at 8" because the bullets tumble.
I only brought up 5.56 because I was accused of thinking SBRs are bad in any other context.
I only talked about 8" 5.56 to still show it's better than the 9mm alternative (MP5).
Yeah mk18s are great.
The real problem with 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62 out of really short barrels is that they're very unpleasant to shoot, especially unsuppressed. You're essentially flash banging yourself, especially if you fire inside a building.
5.45 isn't even common, and 7.62 defensive loads are outperformed in variety and quality by .300 BLK defensive loads, especially once you take into consideration expanding subsonic rounds.
There's still a lot of fuddlore surrounding the capabilities of subsonic .300 BLK, but there are ballistic gel tests out there to prove there are subsonic defensive loads that work great, even out of really short (~6") barrels. A short suppressed .300 BLK rifle firing good subsonic rounds provides you with a compact weapon that really excels at close range and is stupid quiet. I had the opportunity to fire a Sig Rattler with Surefire's .300 BLK specific suppressor, and the sound of the bolt cycling was louder than the gunshots.
As for 5.7, yeah it's fast and light recoiling, but its armor penetrating capabilities are WILDLY overstated, and available defensive loads are are inferior in performance to common 9mm loads like Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Hornady Critical Defense/Duty, etc.
Frick, I rambled.
The problem with subsonic .300 BLK is that .45 is the same thing and has been around for over 100 years.
I guess pic related would be more relevant to PDWs, but you get the idea.
go ask the french commando what he thinks of his pair, or maybe you should ask the guys who plugged him.
Story?
How new are you? Orange tarp pic coming soon
Context ? Where and when was that ? I know it's a french commando who got dome'd but what unit and what was he doing
>Context ?
Somalia, 2013
It's a service action (DGSE, french CIA) operator that was killed during a failed rescue attempt of a DGSE agent that was kidnapped while training local government forces here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulo_Marer_hostage_rescue_attempt
Thanks, it appears they were avenged by an airstrike that wiped the commanders of Shabaab in 2014
That's what everyone says.
you know people have died using ARs and AKs right?
wish there wasn't the confusion of pistol-sized PCCs also being called PDWs. makes any discussions of the two concepts a pain
Here I fixed it
Serious question, a pistol that puts your left hand near the muzzle like a rifle, this is legal as doesn't count as vertical foregrip and provides much better accuracy than a standard pistol grip?
>What does /k/ think of PDWs (Personal Defense Weapons)?
Fun but stupid 99.9% of the time whether civilian or not.
>Scenario 1: I need to conceal
This is the normal civvie scenario and a PDW is obviously fricking terrible at it.
>Scenario 2: I don't need to conceal
Home? Woods? Actual fighting? A normal long gun shits all over the "PDW".
>Scenario 3: real military
Any modern force is never, ever going to be caught off guard by magic with the level of comms and surveillance available now. A PDW is worthless. If things are that bad because it's a sudden rout they're not going to contribute anything vs enemy armor and regular rifle armed soldiers with some meme caliber. Also puts more strain on logistics.
Oh no it's moronic.
What about tank crews?
What if I just want to protect my home from invaders?
yeah
P90 looks to be favored by alot of browns
Ironically it's what Ukraine needs with the press gang activity.
does that use case even make sense?
The wound ballistics of 4.6 and 5.7 are extremely poor. Like people surviving headshots and continuing to fight poor. They aren't used by serious militaries anymore for that reason.
ok nogunz
There are multiple interviews with SEAL Team 6 Operators talking about it. Here's one: https://youtu.be/lVDqtFRXDck?si=LDwhhjvpD2vDlrRz&t=1179
ID on weapon?
B&T APC 300
good gun physiognomy
B&Ts are fricking shit, this brand only exist to appeal to the american consoomer mind. Everyone here shit on these guns and rightfully so, bad quality and terrible reliability.
Krink is based, Krink is truth
This, pistol chassis are just better PDWs
B&Ts are fricking shit, this brand only exist to appeal to the american consoomer mind. Everyone here shit on these guns and rightfully so, bad quality and terrible reliability.
Say more, big guy. Why do people in your third-world hellhole dislike B&T? I have no skin in the game but am interested to hear a new perspective.
nta but bt guns are not shit, they are just average. here in europe they are not seen as some kind of black magic quality guns. you americans tend to associate quality with price too much. just because a tp9 is 1400 euros it doesn't mean its worth the price considering the build quality is often similar to a fricking stribog
>just because a tp9 is 1400 euros it doesn't mean its worth the price considering the build quality is often similar to a fricking stribog
As someone who owns a TP9 and a SP9A1, the Stribog is built better and has a much, much better trigger lol.
pretty good for killing children, shit at everything else.
Too anemic, and when not, they are too large, essentially slightly scaled down rifles
A requirement for that particular category should be that the guns can be passively worn on the person. So like what would a pistol look like if no consideration was given to concealability? Pistol chassis kits probabaly most closely approximate what PDW’s ought to be, only they should be chambered in more potent and farther-reaching calibers. Maybe an mp7 too (still anemic though), although that’s bordering on too large.
I love the idea, it’s just poorly executed in the current paradigm. Tbh just rechamber the mp7 in a hybrid case 22 APG or 5.56 MARS, make the barrel a tiny bit longer, and you have yourself a holsterable/wearable assault rifle deserving of its own category.
Cool concept that's kinda been made irrelevant by stuff like the mk18 which offers a more practical solution.
May have had a niche punching through soft armor in a compact form when originally designed, but have been completely outmoded by SBRs which demonstrate much better shot to stop ratios. Numerous accounts of the PDW systems note that it's a good thing they're controllable on full auto because you have to spray a large amount of rounds into a bad guy to get him to realize he's dead, during which you are not doing anything else and he may be returning fire. They suck even harder for the civilian market where you don't have the ability to full auto take advantage of this one benefit.
In short, there's a reason literally everyone who shoots people has moved from the PDW to the SBR. The fundamental concept is good, but the rounds the systems are designed around suck too hard, especially if you're using an AP load which reduces fragmentation and if you're not using AP and want a controllable bullet hose, there are plenty of SMGs which don't introduce another bullet to your logistics train.
10mm SBRs would probably be popular civilian weapons if we axed the NFA.
Actually no, we would insist on making it 357 magnum or ++P 9mm.
The civilian firearm landscape would totally change if developement wasn’t constrained by the NFA. Short and light suppressed full autos everywhere, everything comes with a fun switch, mp7 form factors more popular, etc.
I wonder if we'd see short barrelled shotguns with barrel chokes and loads optimized for them.
If enough people want it, sure. Remember when Intrepid made rimless round-nose 12 gauge for mag-fed autoloaders, and then it flopped? It’s a great idea, but shotgun users just didn’t care or want it enough.
If the NFA didn't exist I'd probably have an SBR FA UZI or MP5 with a folding stock and sling for innawoods carry. Because bear. Or range fun, who cares.
And I'd probably put a silencer on everything I own like you mention. .22s are great and there's a couple of euros with silenced .410 pumps I'm jealous of as they look like good fun for hunting.
I would trade my own mother for an MP7
Isn't Tommybuilt working on a clone?
yep.
Well I'm glad to hear that, with clones he can trade for as many mp7s as he wants.
I keep on hearing they're a meme.
the idea is sound: give non-frontline troops something compact that can deliver hurt out to relevant distances. the implementation has been idiotic.
Cool idea but the NFA, GCA, and Hughes Amendment state that I can't have them so I dont care
this is peak 2010 futurism and I love it
Honestly I was thinking the original "Total Recall".
I just realized, did Deus Ex rip off that design for the stealth pistol?
A m249 can be reloaded faster.
>he wants to reload a 50 rounder semi
just carry a second one at that point.
We posting our "PDW" leltecs?
it's the SMG from halo odst
Was going for an MP7-vibe but I'll take it
> Fantastically moronic rube Goldberg mag
Of course it's a keltec
>keltec invented the p90 mag
moron
Why didn’t the p50 come with a stick in the first place? Every time I see someone shoot it with nothing extra on it it looks awkward and it doesn’t look right in general
*stock
NFA (No Fun Allowed)
NFA says no
they did eventually release a rifle version but the stock looks worse than aftermarket options
Why wouldn't they just use the screws to attach it over the grip? They're just making a bigger fricking lever and making it weaker; either it makes it easier to rip off or more wobbly. Then again I've never held one so I'm just speculating.
The Stribog 10mm looks promising, but Administrative Results' video showed that it had trouble feeding heavy loads, which is kind of the whole point of 10mm. The Banshee 10mm seems to be the best option right now.
Stupid unless they can be significantly smaller than an SBR or bullpup. But considering you could get a bullpup SBR (rifle caliber) still not really the best option.
>t. running a Kochevnik cut to 12.5 that I can peek standard doorframes with
60597544
Nobody cares what (YOU) want, homosexual
they were a cool idea, but they're obsolete now that you have shit like the Honey Badger and the ~~*SIG*~~ rattler in .300 NIGout
Intermediate rifle cartridges mog PDW cartridges in every way except for weight and capacity, which would be a good tradeoff if the terminal performance was there
why not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_PDR
The syncretics of this weapon platform is useful and reliable in the hands of a professional. It all comes down to the user, the environment a PDR is deployed in and its effective range.
When building and using a firearm I think of the calibre and the target/s with the environment I will use it in and the frequency of use.
Hope this answers your question OP.
PDWs are either a smaller carbine or a PCC. They're better than a pistol and are a gun if you don't have one. A lightweight carbine with a folding stock would meet all requirements.
Pdws are pretty cool. But in reality most military forces get by just fine with short rifles.
I associate PDWs as stereotypical "bad guy" guns in films. They look like something a high-level Batman goon would wield.
PDWs have very narrow use cases in a civilian context.
Let's get this out of the way immediately: 5.7 and 4.6 are meme calibers. This leaves us with 9mm and .300 BLK. I'll leave out 5.56 because 5.56 out of anything shorter than a 10.3" barrel is awful.
Almost all PDWs are too large/heavy to really conceal on-body like a regular pistol. Even something as small as the B&T ACP9K won't conceal well unless you're wearing a loose fitting hoodie. The B&T TP9 isn't much better. The Flux Defense Raider is smaller and lighter than the APC9K and TP9, but is still only marginally more concealable. That said, the Raider is probably your best option for a 9mm PDW. Any of these are good backpack guns, though.
.300 BLK is great out of short (6"-9") barrels, but even the most compact .300 BLK guns (Sig Rattler, for example) are larger than the 9mm options mentioned above. This essentially relegates them to being backpack guns.
I'm not a backpack gun hater, I think they have their use cases, but you need to pick something short, because the guy carrying a MK18 with a LAW folder in his oversized backpack sticks out like a sore thumb. You look like a fricking idiot with that tall Vertx backpack, and everyone knows you've got a rifle in there.
>That said, the Raider is probably your best option for a 9mm PDW.
No way to holster it and no manual safety, so no thanks. You need to have some way of preventing the gun from going bang when it's not in your hands. MK18s have safeties, Glocks have kydex. Anyways backpack guns are gay
>no manual safety
How sure of that are you?
Oh well that's a bit less gay then. I misunderstood the "no M17/M18 FCU" part.
PDWs are cool, enough said. I love my p90
Maxed out starter weapon (Flux Raider, B&T) essential just big pistols with collapsible stocks
Or
SBR
Everything in-between isn't worth the squeeze.
Seems like it works pretty good here idk
And 5.7 has better terminal ballistics than 4.6 so I'd expect a P90 to do the same job more effectively than an MP7.
> the only actual example possibly ever caught on film of the MP7 being used to kill a person
> in a thread about the practicality and effectiveness of PDWs
>23 hours
>0 replies
>shot multiple times
>still conscious and potentially a lethal threat
Explain how this is any better than a 9mm subgun or PDW. A Flux Raider would've achieved the same result.
>still conscious
Did we watch the same video lol, by the time the shooter closes the distance the suspect is decorticate posturing and making weird noises but literally doesn't move at all, and has stopped making noises by the time the medic is getting his ifak out. I was actually surprised to hear he was alive by the end of the video and died at the hospital, although certainly possible that they just didn't declare him dead until he was in the ER.
>Explain how this is any better than a 9mm subgun or PDW. A Flux Raider would've achieved the same result.
Now again anon, the point of the PDW program was "same terminal effects as 9mm but able to pen soft armor." In addition the selected best candidates have higher capacity and less recoil.
So in terms of this, what stands out to me about this footage is that, yeah it seems to perform the same (not worse as MANY anons allege) as a 9mm subgun except that the shooter puts an 8rd burst into the subject without the muzzle moving at all and he still has 12rds on tap because that flush-fit mag he's running holds 20rds, and the extended 40rd mags are shorter than 20rd MP5 magazines are.
Cost and availability are the main downsides to these weapons and their cartridges. If those are a non-issue than a weapon that holds more rounds and recoils less while getting you the same terminal effects is better, simple as.
I actually agree with you for the most part. I'm just saying, these PDW specific calibers (4.6 and 5.7) aren't attractive at all to me as a civilian when high quality expanding 9mm is readily available, and there's a wide variety of 9mm PDW options, including light recoiling options (MP5 clones and others). The ability to penetrate soft armor doesn't factor into my use cases.
The TP9's trigger is complete trash, but to be fair, it was meant to be a full auto weapon. The Stribog looks cool and I was tempted to buy the SP9A3S with the collapsing brace, but I found too many people having issues reliably running hollow points through them. It's a shame, because it otherwise looks like an awesome PDW. Maybe polishing the feed ramps would solve that issue?
>SP9A3
Well like say mine is the A1 gen 2, which is a direct blowback model. I bought it after the A3 had just come out and had a frickload of teething issues. It SEEMS like (from what I've seen on YouTube, leddit, here and forums etc) that the A3s have been mostly sorted out. Supposedly the curved mags solved a lot of the issues (mine are all the gen 2 stick mags with the steel lips). The main thing I had to do was put an aftermarket buffer in it and it's been 100% since.
I've also good heard things about the aftermarket lowers that let them use Scorpion mags and change out the grips and FCGs but honestly, it was a $600 direct blowback gun and it runs I'm not worried about it. If I was trying to make a RDBB version act a bit more like an MP5 I'd consider that route but considering the roach MP5s are looking pretty fricking solid (main thing I keep seeing is people putting HK extractors and springs in them) that's maybe a better route to tak if that's the guns you want.
I might have to look into it again. I've been seriously considering trying to snag a Flux Raider due to how light and compact it is, but they sell out in the blink of an eye. I did look into the Turkroach MP5K clone, but it would need a lot of upgrades to modernize compared to the 'bog.
Currently I have a Foxtrot Mike Glock mag AR-9 with a 7" barrel. I swapped out the .308 buffer spring and solid weight buffer for a SprinCo carbine spring and Macon Armory "deadblow" buffer because the stock config is known to cause bolt bounce and potentially out of battery detonations.
I wanted to make sure it would feed 124gr Speer Gold Dot reliably and with no bullet deformation when chambering (which can be a problem with direct blowback systems), so I chambered a round and then compared the round chambered to a fresh round and found no deformation, thankfully. I then mag dumped a 33 round OEM Glock mag full of Gold Dots, and didn't have a single hiccup. Fantastic. It hurt, though. I bought those Gold Dots when they were 70 cents a round, $700 for a case. $23 worth of Gold Dots gone in a few seconds 🙁
But hey, for a $600 AR-9, it's great to know it's a viable PDW.
I think they look neat, and I'm forever pissed I might never be able to shoot one or own one because
>leaf
but eventually I might end up moving to Alaska or somewhere so far up north that nobody really gives a shit.
super sweet. bridges the gap between pccs and actual rifles, especially here in cuckistan where we dont get nice things becuase spooky scary assault rifles. both the P90, Mp7 and MP9 semi auto variants are 100% legal here if you take a 4 hour course. also for people lucky enough to have bought before our dictator veto'd pistols, the ps90 is a pcc.
picrel is a shining example of how moronic gun laws are. it is 100% legal, you dont even have to tell the govt about putting the heckin ebil 10.5 inch barrel on it. despite the implications of having to deal with the government to get sbrs here, AB, Sask and the territories have very chill cfos who listen to reason and do their jobs. also strangely the MP5 is name banned here, even the semiauto SP5.
>PDW
old news, it's all about the LVAW now
>LVAW
wut in tarnation is that?
You really don't know how to use a search engine? It's basically a Sig Rattler.
https://clonerifles.com/lvaw/
>he bought a c note
This is the part of the movie when we throw are heads back in laughter
Ready?
>sub-cat form factor
well done
It was a fine rifle for the time, but a century later we have smaller, lighter options chambered in more potent cartridges.
Some beefs with your points:
> Excellent within 300 yards
> concealable
lol, lmao even.
Anyways, “PDW” is not deserving of its own classification as distinct from assault rifles as long as the chief examples are either shortened assault rifles or weird clunky guns that retain all the weight, bulk, and cumbersomeness of standard assault rifles (with far inferior ballistics). They need to be WEARABLE, that’s the whole point, so you can do non-shooting stuff with your hands without being slowed down/encumbered by your weapon. The MP7 and pistol chassis systems are like the only guns that are useful as PDWs. Everything else is a dumb compromise that yields no net advantage over, say, a mk18.