Both are necked down 308s with the same general concept. Both trade a heavier gun, more recoil and less carried ammunition for increased effective engagement ranges based mostly on lessons from Afghanistan.
6.5 Creedmoor would have been the choice if we already used 308 rifles and wanted to save money by retooling existing stock.
277 takes advantage of the fact that we need to make a bunch of new guns anyway and better modern manufacturing to build for higher barrel pressures and thus shorter barrels.
in afghanistan what was demonstrated was that outranging traditional thirty cal rifle rounds is nice
if that’s what you’re looking at, 6.5 creedmore gives you all the advantage you want
the fact that they went with 277 fury indicates that they want more. it’s not just necked down 308, it’s very hot 308, where 6.5cm is very downloaded.
2 years ago
Anonymous
cartridges like 6.5 creedmore would have been the choice if the main influence was afghanistan
6.5 gays have toppled .30-06 fudds as the densest thing in the universe.
Any top end .308 will outperform top end 6.5 CM out to 900-1100 yards, depending on the exact load.
After 1100 yards, both are too low on energy to be relived upon.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>INB4 6.5 gays claim all that matters is the .308 needs .5 MOA more adjustment (2 clicks) wind adjustment at 1000yds
2 years ago
Anonymous
I did this again both using hornady fsctory loads on hornadys ballistic calculator. But their site sucks so it's spread across like 5 screenshots if anyone's curious.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I thought part of it was lower recoil for follow up shots?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Is that the swiss round in your pic, not even 6.5 creed? I'm under the impression that around 5-600 the creedmoor retains more energy than .308
2 years ago
Anonymous
>(although ive never seen 6.5cm that heavy go that fast)
Black person you're making a fricking fool of yourself lmao
Black person, 6.8x51 kicks the ever living frick out of 6.5 CM.
Shit .308 kicks the shit out of 6.5 CM at any effective engagement range for drop, and energy, and is only effected by wind by ~1.5 MOA more even at 1000 yds.
the only difference is sig needed to load it pissin hot to get it to work in their shit brick "carbine" and it's expected to shred barrels even with their lower pressure "training" load.
This except with sois and women failing to qual on it leading to it being pushed back into a specialist DMR role
At that point they might put a longer barrel on it anyway thereby invalidating one of the fricking requirements of the program, but that's just how MIC goes sometimes
think they made it so that it could be easily converted to lmg
they're probably thinking of turning all infantry into some sort of machine gunners
basically less personnel but more firepower to compensate for that
I think I'll believe it when US GI's are actually using them instead of an M4.
That was the original working concept of the Gatling gun. We see how increasing magazine capacity and rates of fire have helped to minimize death on the battlefield in the decades since.
Sincerely doubt it will be standardized. Will basically become a more common version of the SCAR. I fully expect our allies to adopt much better weapons in the platform that we will probably switch to down the line.
The US has a long history of absolutely refusing to adopt any cartridge or small arm that originated in any other country, regardless of performance. As we see with the Sig selections, DoD small-arms procurement is never about what's best, it's about who cosies up to us the best
>ive never even heard of 6.8mm cartridges
They were invented for the NGSW program. May as well make a new round if we're making a new gun. This way it can have the exact specs the army wants instead of being a compromise. 6.5grendal would be a sidegrade. It's not going to do much more than 5.56mm does, except be slightly more lethal at the same ranges. 6.8mm is good for twice the range of 5.56mm.
They couLd have saved a fortune by just using a modern AR-10, which would have been lighter and they could have chambered it in their gayvass 6.8 if that's what they really wanted
i said 13” because that’s xm5 barrel length and i want a tc encore pistol chambered for it, that was my first post in the thread, i don’t “keep saying” anything
>Russia has yet to actually win this little war of theirs
Russia has already won this game twice now, they're winning again They will do it again next time there is cooperative and corrupt o'Black folk in office pilfering the country instead of furthering American causes.
>spend billions of dollars over nearly two decades trialing various new service weapons and cartridges with all sorts of exotic projectiles, cases, totally new loading mechanisms, >adopt an completely conventional AR10 chambered in necked down .308
LMAO
I think its moronic that the Marines new rifle, the M27, is chambered in .223 but the Army’s new gun is chambered in .277. Won’t that cause logistics problems?
No, the Army logistics network and the Marine logistics network are almost entirely unrelated. The Army also isn't getting rid of the M4. The XM5 is also for Frontline combat units only, there is still gonna be 5.56 floating around in the Army for decades.
It all makes sense when you realize a few years down the line the Army will just say "lmao nevermind" after some officers retire in to comfortable industry jobs like they've done the last 3 times.
The army did state during a press conference that they actually don't care about what the rest of NATO does.
Also not all NATO countries even use 5.56 so daddy America can say whatever it wants.
completely rarted.
they'll only really use it in the low pressure cartridges to save barrel life. the high pressure cartridges won't ever be used and if they do they'll be completely ineffective against body armor because modern level 4 plates can stop multiple 338 lapua AP rounds.
it's already obsolete.
Chamber pressure doesn't increase barrel wear.
The ratio of chamber volume to barrel diameter is what dictates it.
Throat erosion will appear in them at essentially the same time, regardless of the pressure of the round.
>one marketing video of a beefed-up plate is indicative of all Level IV plates in existence
Who keeps birthing you morons, and how have they not suffocated from forgetting to breathe?
If this performs well I would not be shocked if they don't R&D up a 5.56 version of it. The can on this thing and the LMG are the real golden tickets of the whole program. Everything I've seen about the suppressor makes me want one.
>If this performs well I would not be shocked if they don't R&D up a 5.56 version of it.
get off my board you moron >Everything I've seen about the suppressor makes me want one.
except it's ability to suppress lol
It's 140gr and it would be a .270 shortened to work in a short action and from a 13" barrel.
In short, it's stupidly high performing at the low cost of component lifespan
Does mean that you'll have to take off the suppressor which does shorten your reach, unless they can find a way to mount a bayonet to a suppressor without breaking it.
I personally think the suppressors are just there to increase the price tag. ooooo sintering so revolutionary. It's gonna be one of those things joe will never touch or see but they have it anyway.
If I was the army chief I would go with a bullpup design because it's easy to exit vehicles with the rifle already drawn (jews developed their bullpup for this reason). I'd also go with a funky caliber like 6.8 Rem since it's a good middle ground between 5.6 and .308
Suppressors are moronic on a battlefield when the enemy is shooting unsuppressed supersonic rounds over your head and there are tanks and mortars firing off less than a block away. Also irrelevant considering everyone is wearing comms/earpro already. Just added weight and length for nothing imo. Also they will be training with different ammo than what they will use in real combat which is even more fricking moronic.
It would have been beneficial in an area like afghanistan/iraqi cities, where you could have wiped out groups of enemies while making it difficult for nearby enemies to pinpoint your exact location. This is probably the exact reason why it's being pushed.
I think you greatly overestimate the earpro soldiers get and its less about coving up sound in general and more about making it easier to communicate and harder for the enemy to determine exactly where the shots are coming from and lots of times you use different ammo to train like when you train with your carry gun or you dry fire or you use blanks all are great training tools
Everything about the SIG is half-ass. Every single part of it. Doesn’t have a monolithic upper like LMT and has a goofy split design that still has you mounting you laser to the hand guard instead of the upper. Rear end of the gun looks like shit because they never figured out how to elegantly deal with the tall upper from the piston. Folding stock doesn’t fold flush b3caue they went with a fricking buffer tube instead of making something nice and bespoke like a SCAR, ACR, Bren2, etc. two charging handles for no reason.
Imagine designing and all new weapon and then making it mostly like an AR but not compatible at all and compromising your design to do so.
It’s absolute dogshit and the only reason it was selected is that the army wasn’t willing to have another program fail to select a new weapon.
The Chinese are fricking scary. Way way scarier than the Axis and the peak Soviets forces during the cold war. Even if the advantages of the rifle really do trump the all the downsides, the program takes money away from not loosing the air and sea war in the Pacific. Every cent needs to be put towards winning that battle least we learn for the first time what loosing a war is really like.
Really excited about future prospects. Been a fan of .308 since birth and having a caliber like .308 puts a smile on my face. We will see if it catches on and other rifles are made in the same caliber. Personally, I don't want an Xm5 it's too AR like and I already have 3 ARs.
The same crybaby's scared of change will start crying about logistical volume instead.
Note how those people are the ones that believe the M14 is the best rifle ever despite their ancestors with the same afraid of change mindset are the ones that both cucked the M14 and M16 after fricking with the ammo for both NATO cartridge platforms, possibly to keep the soggy M14, the engineers quickly reworked the internals of the gun to work with the new powder so the crybaby's stayed malding.
You've now made the gun heavier and introduced issues of feeding and the bullets wanting to jump the magazine more under recoil.
Its also simply harder to feed very long cartridges.
The rifle is being given first to the close combat force, which are the troops engaged in active combat. Active combat troops are the minority in any military. Logistics and non front line soldiers make up the bulk of the forces. These people will keep their M4s.
my GOD I'm bored just looking at this thing, much as I love it as an actual replacement. Was there nothing they could think of to make it more of a next gen thing? Arbitrary hexagon shapes and low poly geometry furniture not allowed.
I wish the Military would adopt's KAC's LMG's. Those 5 pound things
Literally just make everyone an assault gunner. No doctrine change to small arm warfare just theres more lead going downrange that can be done at a constant rate though i think friendly fire incidents would go up since Americans are moronic and will walk into the constant stream of lead pinning the enemy down.
Never mind about the weight i think i grossly misremembered the numbers. First time i saw this gun was when the frog loving jesus man was doing his review on it.
It's only going to close combat forces like infantrymen, cav scouts, combat engineers, forward observers and combat medics
Tankers, aviation, logistics and everybody else will stay with the M4
The Spear is for strong men, ie, the typical American combat arms team soldier. It runs 80k psi armor-punchers. Not only that the optic and machine gun setup. Completely dabs on China.
weight and the whole training cartridge vs combat round thing has me concerned
Really makes me wonder if the army will realize that only the MG's really need the new spicy round and go back to having the LMG in .30 cal and the infantry rifle in 5.556 a la vietnam
From what I read and just by logic, the move is to get away from using 5.56 and 7.62. Having a military only have to carry 1 specific round makes a lot of sense logistically. Also makes it easier to carrry more ammo for the lmg versions during squad patrols, and makes it harder to identify the machine gunner. When I was in we introduced the m27 IAR for the purpose of hiding the machine gunner and to be able to take accurate 3-5 round bursts at 150-300m
From what I've heard its more similar to a structure some European countries use where there is no SAW only a GPMG and everyone else can go full auto to gain fire superiority, I'm kinda skeptical about how that works and how you decide who suppresses and who more accurately engages durring a firefight I think the m27 is more that they want one weapon to do everything which has never worked and it may be because historically the USMC hasn't had as much funding and while m27 sounds expensive its not compared to replacing rifles saws and dmrs
I feel some great opportunities were left out because they didn't want to be risky. Polymer ammo would've been really interesting, but they stuck with brass. And honestly, every gun got shit on, people didn't believe in the M4 until they switched to the M5. Suddenly everyone was a fan of the M4 and the M5 is the worst gun ever blablabla. I'm excited for the kino and how well the 6.8 round performs. Other than that nothing really changed.
Yup yet another thread full of a bunch of dumbasses that cant grasp the reasoning or thought behind the contract. Just morons seething that their favorite brand of metal and polymer is likely to be phased out from general use. Why the frick are people so invested in this silly shit?
Right and tanks exist as well and are just as likely to be given to every soldier on the battlefield.
I've never had issues with the TV ammo yet(Yes i shilled the $2.50/round to try it out). noticeable difference in weight when you load up all your mags even with the heavier 168 boolet. When it get's cheaper it's definitely going to be my go to but until then it's the beaner bullets or SIG copper elite's when i want to punch through cheap hunks of steel.
SIG winning and delaying widespread adoption of polymer rounds is honestly the worst part of this program. We could’ve had actual advancements in ammo tech, but instead the army chooses the bubba wildcat round.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>We could’ve had actual advancements in ammo tech, but instead the army chooses the bubba wildcat round.
Yea the thing actually uses a substantially less amount of powder to make it perform like standard factory loads with ball powder. Imagine how fast shit could be pushed while still maintaining the standard pressure ratings. unsure if they were doing that in the NGSW trials since it seems they just submitted a more efficient .270 Winchester due to the fact of taking advantage of a bullpup design for the longer barrel to push the lighter bullet faster.
Since the polymer ammo is obviously what the .308 was to the 30-06, TV could one day just make a new cartridge again that's literally just either a skinnier cased .308 or shorter one(like the WSSM fad) and build some guns and chamberings around that or do both and somehow manage to push a 150 grain 30 cal from a 300 blackout casing, might have to use the slightly wider 6.5 grendel casing or something. Maybe someone brave enough to shill out some extra coin to the paypig called patents while it's still alive instead of waiting years for it to become kill.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's like Americans are allergic to efficiency, first their cars, now their ammo.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Unfortunately the people in charge of adopting new things are always afraid of change despite it not even being a radical change that questions your entire way of thinking.
>2 fricking charging handles >2
The cope is always over the few left handed Black folk or literal fricking morons who live on repetitive stimuli to change a simple though process.
Ah yes, I'm sure there's no way that could come undone. Well, maybe if it was subject to some sort of tiny explosion, but what are the chances of that happening?
isn't LMT just swapping Britian's DMR rifles with a 6.8 upper in a response to this?
What exactly is the point of the SPEAR if you just put in a relatively easy swap barrel+chamber due to higher wear of the higher pressure round?
It seems like a bad idea, FW doing a video on it talking about not needing a super long-lived service weapon based on recent combat data from Ukraine was interesting in justifying the super high-pressure round burning out barrels fast but idk how expendable a new, expensive rifle is going to be if they intend to issue them all with suppressors and the new optics standard. I think the rifle will perform adequately but it's probably not going to be this big game-changer the military wants and its problems will become apparent (like with any new-issued thing) when put to the test and we'll see if they commit to an A1 design or drop it. Think the biggest hit in the long-term will be the cost of the rifle in the wake of supply chain disruptions in the future, and they'd have to rely on their old stock of M4's/M16s/etc. if things get really bad
Knowing the nu-military they're going to destroy those guns the instant there's an M5 to replace it. Don't want anything ending up on the surplus market, can't trust those lowely civilians. Hey Akhmed and Jose need some guns? we can give them to you on the downlow hush hush on gawd and Awlah fr fr no cap.
hey there's a brand new ATF director to get all those outdated guns into the hands of cartels/"ukranians"/schizo loners so it'll all work out. nothing bad has ever happened when the government sold weapons to less-than-scrupulous parties :*~~*~~
When Ian talked about the plastic ammo, he actually said it makes the gun hotter. That's why he said the sig spear was the right choice, while the other guns were dumb. Ian doesn't understand thermodynamics.
Never rely on a gun to be replaced in a military context.
The M60 was built for a great war across the European Plain and was essentially that very concept of a not very long lived service weapon. Only it worked out that instead they were used for 30 years and by the end were so clapped out as to be nearly unfunctional in many cases.
Nothing is ever thrown out or retrofitted in the military unless its exploded.
>/k/ ree's for years about muh battle rifles >US moves back towards full powered battle rifles >/k/ ree's
Why do you even care what /k/ thinks? Most are poors, underaged, or, worst of all, European. Their opinion doesn't matter as none of them will ever shoot the .277 Fury round anytime soon.
>make ammo to defeat body armour that nearly nobody runs
it's pretty much pointless, unless they unironically think China/Russia has a massive surplus of 55A1-defeating body armour laying around
Surprised nobody posted about the barrel life yet so i'll do it instead.
Turns out the 10k number was never actually mentioned, the program requirement was 6k and SIG's computer models estimated their barrels might be able to do 12k rounds.
As far as anyone can tell they've never actually did any physical on this so as far as we know the actual number is far lower.
If this is true then SIG must’ve hired top tier super model level hookers for the brass along with their bribes.
But if it’s true, then TVs GAO petition would’ve been won, yet TV withdrew it?
>As far as anyone can tell they've never actually did any physical on this
Utter horseshit. Sig absolutely would have done live fire testing on their barrels until they failed. The NGSW program also did have endurance range days, where they'd shoot 10k rounds while an engineer was on standby to try and fix any problems that arise. This is what got Textron disqualified. They failed reliability testing.
Also again, where do you people keep pulling this 10k number from? I haven't seen it anywhere in any articles official or otherwise, as far as i can see someone on this board made that claim once and everyone ran with it.
https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/ssd-exclusive-5-questions-on-next-generation-squad-weapons-with-sig-ceo-ron-cohen/ >RC: Barrel life has been a major challenge since day one. We fought with barrel and component life three years ago. Now, I’m not nervous about barrel life. The M4’s barrel life is set at 6,000 rounds. We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings.
After all the RDX propellant and telescoped ammo tests I'm surprised it doesn't use both.
I get militaries are slow to adopt new technology due to fears of it not working but still using standard ammo with a minor mod to increase pressure just seems like a small improvement to be stuck with for the next 50 years.
If polymer continues to improve, there's a slight chance that 6.8mm will be switched to that. Very slight. Spec ops will continue to use whatever they want.
The rest of NATO probably won't follow the US on this switch, too. They'll wait and see how it works out for the US. Test the sig spear with their spec ops. I expect them to take a decade to follow suit, assume the US sticks with 6.8mm for that long.
It's such a minor leap part of me thinks congress and arms manufactures have come to an agreement. >adopt this minor upgrade >order 1 million of them >plus parts and contractors training >in 10 years we'll do it again
Beats waiting another 50 years to throw serious money at small arms donors.
>congress and arms manufactures have come to an agreement
Yes, you could say that. Especially considering how Sig now makes the army's pistol, rifle, LPVO and MMG. There's quite a big "agreement" between congress and one arms manufacturer.
or just any other big company that decides to dedicate themselves to government contracts. When do you think they're gonna do that "for military/law enforcement use only" meme thing they end up doing which completely destroys their market base to either end up going bankrupt or dedicate themselves to only live off of one product shilled by the boomers that plague this board (aimpoint, trijicon, Eokek, etc)
M14 2: Electric Boogaloo
Except a good rifle, unlike the m14
this m14 is way better than this piece of trash
No
The m14 wasn't even good at the time, let alone 70 years later.
its way cooler
Nothing about being a bloated obese piece of shit with bent parts out of the factory and impossible to accurize is cool.
2 words bro: wood stock
2 words, sucks dick
>impossible to accurize
>people shoot competetition with
>multiple sniper/DMR systems made out of it
hard to accuratize? Yes Impossible? No
Not in any reliable or sustainable way. Keeping them 'happy' requires a constant pouring of money and effort, and does not survive field conditions.
Nah its more like:
m16 .308, the military industrial complex strikes back
m16 obsession is just last war syndrome
xm5 is weapon that looks to the future
The XM5 looks to Afghanistan more than anything else
cartridges like 6.5 creedmore would have been the choice if the main influence was afghanistan
Both are necked down 308s with the same general concept. Both trade a heavier gun, more recoil and less carried ammunition for increased effective engagement ranges based mostly on lessons from Afghanistan.
6.5 Creedmoor would have been the choice if we already used 308 rifles and wanted to save money by retooling existing stock.
277 takes advantage of the fact that we need to make a bunch of new guns anyway and better modern manufacturing to build for higher barrel pressures and thus shorter barrels.
in afghanistan what was demonstrated was that outranging traditional thirty cal rifle rounds is nice
if that’s what you’re looking at, 6.5 creedmore gives you all the advantage you want
the fact that they went with 277 fury indicates that they want more. it’s not just necked down 308, it’s very hot 308, where 6.5cm is very downloaded.
6.5 gays have toppled .30-06 fudds as the densest thing in the universe.
Any top end .308 will outperform top end 6.5 CM out to 900-1100 yards, depending on the exact load.
After 1100 yards, both are too low on energy to be relived upon.
>INB4 6.5 gays claim all that matters is the .308 needs .5 MOA more adjustment (2 clicks) wind adjustment at 1000yds
I did this again both using hornady fsctory loads on hornadys ballistic calculator. But their site sucks so it's spread across like 5 screenshots if anyone's curious.
I thought part of it was lower recoil for follow up shots?
Is that the swiss round in your pic, not even 6.5 creed? I'm under the impression that around 5-600 the creedmoor retains more energy than .308
>(although ive never seen 6.5cm that heavy go that fast)
Black person you're making a fricking fool of yourself lmao
Black person, 6.8x51 kicks the ever living frick out of 6.5 CM.
Shit .308 kicks the shit out of 6.5 CM at any effective engagement range for drop, and energy, and is only effected by wind by ~1.5 MOA more even at 1000 yds.
you realize that's what they picked, right
the only difference is sig needed to load it pissin hot to get it to work in their shit brick "carbine" and it's expected to shred barrels even with their lower pressure "training" load.
XM5 is running backwards towards the future at full speed while staring at the past.
No it's M16 2 Electric Boogaloo.
This except with sois and women failing to qual on it leading to it being pushed back into a specialist DMR role
At that point they might put a longer barrel on it anyway thereby invalidating one of the fricking requirements of the program, but that's just how MIC goes sometimes
I dont because it doesnt hurt or help me in any way
think they made it so that it could be easily converted to lmg
they're probably thinking of turning all infantry into some sort of machine gunners
basically less personnel but more firepower to compensate for that
>converted into lmgs
Thank you for your dumbfrick opinion. You are now aware of the XM250, the other third of the SIG NGSW submission.
I think I'll believe it when US GI's are actually using them instead of an M4.
That was the original working concept of the Gatling gun. We see how increasing magazine capacity and rates of fire have helped to minimize death on the battlefield in the decades since.
ah yes, heavier rounds and smaller magazines so exponentially less volumes of fire, the perfect lmg.
>think they made it so that it could be easily converted to lmg
where the frick do you morons get this shit
wow 20 rounds mags really turn into an lmg alright.
It’s basically an m14 and thus a massive improvement over the m4
>It’s basically an m14
it's not made from wood
And the XM5 wasn't designed by complete morons.
Sincerely doubt it will be standardized. Will basically become a more common version of the SCAR. I fully expect our allies to adopt much better weapons in the platform that we will probably switch to down the line.
The US has a long history of absolutely refusing to adopt any cartridge or small arm that originated in any other country, regardless of performance. As we see with the Sig selections, DoD small-arms procurement is never about what's best, it's about who cosies up to us the best
Aren't many forces and a few foreigners adopting 6.5 CM?
Sort of. Lots of DMRs chambered in 7.62mm are being swapped to 6.5CM. The US Army is swapping from 5.56mm assault rifles to 6.8mm battle rifles.
why wouldnt they just switch to 6.5 grendel? ive never even heard of 6.8mm cartridges
>ive never even heard of 6.8mm cartridges
They were invented for the NGSW program. May as well make a new round if we're making a new gun. This way it can have the exact specs the army wants instead of being a compromise. 6.5grendal would be a sidegrade. It's not going to do much more than 5.56mm does, except be slightly more lethal at the same ranges. 6.8mm is good for twice the range of 5.56mm.
AR 10 bros win again
They couLd have saved a fortune by just using a modern AR-10, which would have been lighter and they could have chambered it in their gayvass 6.8 if that's what they really wanted
I am excitedly awaiting when real AR10s can be chambered in 277 fury, as I do like the 270 win for hunting.
i got a tc encore frame that’s BEGGING for a 13inch pistol barrel in 277 fury
yeah and 270 is the greatest rifle cartridge ever designed
Why do you keep saying 13".
Those velocities are for 16" you fricking moron.
i said 13” because that’s xm5 barrel length and i want a tc encore pistol chambered for it, that was my first post in the thread, i don’t “keep saying” anything
Sig won. Trump won. Chauvin won. Russia won.
Get over it.
Trump lost, Chauvin is in jail, and Russia has yet to actually win this little war of theirs.
>Russia has yet to actually win this little war of theirs
Russia has already won this game twice now, they're winning again They will do it again next time there is cooperative and corrupt o'Black folk in office pilfering the country instead of furthering American causes.
Cope. Seethe. Mald.
~~*Nu-Sig*~~ loves it.
>spend billions of dollars over nearly two decades trialing various new service weapons and cartridges with all sorts of exotic projectiles, cases, totally new loading mechanisms,
>adopt an completely conventional AR10 chambered in necked down .308
LMAO
>two decades
ACR project started in the 1980s
I think its moronic that the Marines new rifle, the M27, is chambered in .223 but the Army’s new gun is chambered in .277. Won’t that cause logistics problems?
No
Why
Marines are useless cannon fodder anyways.
Who cares?
>Won’t that cause logistics problems?
No, the Army logistics network and the Marine logistics network are almost entirely unrelated. The Army also isn't getting rid of the M4. The XM5 is also for Frontline combat units only, there is still gonna be 5.56 floating around in the Army for decades.
It all makes sense when you realize a few years down the line the Army will just say "lmao nevermind" after some officers retire in to comfortable industry jobs like they've done the last 3 times.
Will the rest of NATO follow suit with this new round?
Whatever daddy America says will go
The army did state during a press conference that they actually don't care about what the rest of NATO does.
Also not all NATO countries even use 5.56 so daddy America can say whatever it wants.
completely rarted.
they'll only really use it in the low pressure cartridges to save barrel life. the high pressure cartridges won't ever be used and if they do they'll be completely ineffective against body armor because modern level 4 plates can stop multiple 338 lapua AP rounds.
it's already obsolete.
Chamber pressure doesn't increase barrel wear.
The ratio of chamber volume to barrel diameter is what dictates it.
Throat erosion will appear in them at essentially the same time, regardless of the pressure of the round.
>one marketing video of a beefed-up plate is indicative of all Level IV plates in existence
Who keeps birthing you morons, and how have they not suffocated from forgetting to breathe?
6.8x51 is just objectively better than 7.62x51, but I have a hard time believing that the SPEAR will be the best rifle in the round.
>M14: bro do you even lift
>M16/M4:
>M416: trust me bro, I'm the replacement
>SCAR: trust me bro
>Furry cannnon: trust me bro
>5.56x45:
>6.8spc: bruh
>6.5 Grendal: bro?
>6.8spc II: brrrrrr
>.277Furry: *kvetching*
what handguard is that?
Geissele Mk8 7"
It's squared off every 90 degrees, not the bendyboy mk16 pos. Back when "Geissele" meant something
Drop the suppressor and the rear charging handle. That's it. Maybe do experiments with True Velocity to make the spicy pill but plastic.
If this performs well I would not be shocked if they don't R&D up a 5.56 version of it. The can on this thing and the LMG are the real golden tickets of the whole program. Everything I've seen about the suppressor makes me want one.
>If this performs well I would not be shocked if they don't R&D up a 5.56 version of it.
get off my board you moron
>Everything I've seen about the suppressor makes me want one.
except it's ability to suppress lol
>130 grain bullet at around 3000 fps
am i moronic or is this basically .270 that's been optimized for a shorter barrel?
It's 140gr and it would be a .270 shortened to work in a short action and from a 13" barrel.
In short, it's stupidly high performing at the low cost of component lifespan
135
Yes basically.
Some of the mil rounds might get closer to .270 wsm performance
>no bayonet lug
What a piece of garbage
M-lok Bayonets
Wtf I love SIG now
Only problem is your bayonet will bend
Didn't know those were actually a thing lol.
I want one
Does mean that you'll have to take off the suppressor which does shorten your reach, unless they can find a way to mount a bayonet to a suppressor without breaking it.
>Longer bayonet french style.
I personally think the suppressors are just there to increase the price tag. ooooo sintering so revolutionary. It's gonna be one of those things joe will never touch or see but they have it anyway.
personally I think the opposite idea is far more appealing
a rail system consisting entirely of bayonet lugs
Bayonet is not useful, if its CQB you want a trench knife. You cannot bayonet charge subway tunnels, they'll mow you down. Flamethrowers good too.
If I was the army chief I would go with a bullpup design because it's easy to exit vehicles with the rifle already drawn (jews developed their bullpup for this reason). I'd also go with a funky caliber like 6.8 Rem since it's a good middle ground between 5.6 and .308
Suppressors are moronic on a battlefield when the enemy is shooting unsuppressed supersonic rounds over your head and there are tanks and mortars firing off less than a block away. Also irrelevant considering everyone is wearing comms/earpro already. Just added weight and length for nothing imo. Also they will be training with different ammo than what they will use in real combat which is even more fricking moronic.
>Suppressors are moronic on a battlefield
It would have been beneficial in an area like afghanistan/iraqi cities, where you could have wiped out groups of enemies while making it difficult for nearby enemies to pinpoint your exact location. This is probably the exact reason why it's being pushed.
Must be why everybody and their mother runs with suppressors at this very moment in Ukraine, nope, no advantage at all. moron
suppressors make the bullets do less damage and have lower range
Where do you get your info from COD
Everyone uses it = good is reddit logic
What does reddit have to do with this thread? Did reddit do something to you or are you moronic?
I think you greatly overestimate the earpro soldiers get and its less about coving up sound in general and more about making it easier to communicate and harder for the enemy to determine exactly where the shots are coming from and lots of times you use different ammo to train like when you train with your carry gun or you dry fire or you use blanks all are great training tools
Everything about the SIG is half-ass. Every single part of it. Doesn’t have a monolithic upper like LMT and has a goofy split design that still has you mounting you laser to the hand guard instead of the upper. Rear end of the gun looks like shit because they never figured out how to elegantly deal with the tall upper from the piston. Folding stock doesn’t fold flush b3caue they went with a fricking buffer tube instead of making something nice and bespoke like a SCAR, ACR, Bren2, etc. two charging handles for no reason.
Imagine designing and all new weapon and then making it mostly like an AR but not compatible at all and compromising your design to do so.
It’s absolute dogshit and the only reason it was selected is that the army wasn’t willing to have another program fail to select a new weapon.
hate siggers
The Chinese are fricking scary. Way way scarier than the Axis and the peak Soviets forces during the cold war. Even if the advantages of the rifle really do trump the all the downsides, the program takes money away from not loosing the air and sea war in the Pacific. Every cent needs to be put towards winning that battle least we learn for the first time what loosing a war is really like.
Really excited about future prospects. Been a fan of .308 since birth and having a caliber like .308 puts a smile on my face. We will see if it catches on and other rifles are made in the same caliber. Personally, I don't want an Xm5 it's too AR like and I already have 3 ARs.
If they had done pic related it would have fixed the low capacity magazine issue.
good meme
The same crybaby's scared of change will start crying about logistical volume instead.
Note how those people are the ones that believe the M14 is the best rifle ever despite their ancestors with the same afraid of change mindset are the ones that both cucked the M14 and M16 after fricking with the ammo for both NATO cartridge platforms, possibly to keep the soggy M14, the engineers quickly reworked the internals of the gun to work with the new powder so the crybaby's stayed malding.
That would require a longer action, which would increase the length and weight of the rifle.
In other words, we need bullpups.
You've now made the gun heavier and introduced issues of feeding and the bullets wanting to jump the magazine more under recoil.
Its also simply harder to feed very long cartridges.
>The Army plans to procure a total of 107,000 rifles
Is it just me or is that nowhere near enough
>The Marines acquired 14,000 IAR rifles when they declared it their new standard issue weapon
What the frick that's even worse
They aren't completely phasing out the M4 with the M5, most grunts will be using it. As sig keeps producing they'll reach further down.
There aren’t that many actual combat troops in the Army/USMC.
The rifle is being given first to the close combat force, which are the troops engaged in active combat. Active combat troops are the minority in any military. Logistics and non front line soldiers make up the bulk of the forces. These people will keep their M4s.
my GOD I'm bored just looking at this thing, much as I love it as an actual replacement. Was there nothing they could think of to make it more of a next gen thing? Arbitrary hexagon shapes and low poly geometry furniture not allowed.
I wish the Military would adopt's KAC's LMG's. Those 5 pound things
Literally just make everyone an assault gunner. No doctrine change to small arm warfare just theres more lead going downrange that can be done at a constant rate though i think friendly fire incidents would go up since Americans are moronic and will walk into the constant stream of lead pinning the enemy down.
Never mind about the weight i think i grossly misremembered the numbers. First time i saw this gun was when the frog loving jesus man was doing his review on it.
That thing is so cool.
It's only going to close combat forces like infantrymen, cav scouts, combat engineers, forward observers and combat medics
Tankers, aviation, logistics and everybody else will stay with the M4
It's gonna be a God tier gun with the new computerized optics it's supposed to be fielded with.
Its a great idea with absolutely zero downsides.
The Spear is for strong men, ie, the typical American combat arms team soldier. It runs 80k psi armor-punchers. Not only that the optic and machine gun setup. Completely dabs on China.
no SOVL, looks incredibly exoensive to give to the majority of infantry on in a country that has a tremendous debt
weight and the whole training cartridge vs combat round thing has me concerned
Really makes me wonder if the army will realize that only the MG's really need the new spicy round and go back to having the LMG in .30 cal and the infantry rifle in 5.556 a la vietnam
11B chads rise up for the new toys
pog virgins keep the rifle that grandpa used lmao
Thats ok I'll take an m4 in exchange for the ability to have an actual useful skill in the civilian world
From what I read and just by logic, the move is to get away from using 5.56 and 7.62. Having a military only have to carry 1 specific round makes a lot of sense logistically. Also makes it easier to carrry more ammo for the lmg versions during squad patrols, and makes it harder to identify the machine gunner. When I was in we introduced the m27 IAR for the purpose of hiding the machine gunner and to be able to take accurate 3-5 round bursts at 150-300m
From what I've heard its more similar to a structure some European countries use where there is no SAW only a GPMG and everyone else can go full auto to gain fire superiority, I'm kinda skeptical about how that works and how you decide who suppresses and who more accurately engages durring a firefight I think the m27 is more that they want one weapon to do everything which has never worked and it may be because historically the USMC hasn't had as much funding and while m27 sounds expensive its not compared to replacing rifles saws and dmrs
Personally I'd go for a modernized 22-250 bullpup or just a urgi scaled up to 22-250
I feel some great opportunities were left out because they didn't want to be risky. Polymer ammo would've been really interesting, but they stuck with brass. And honestly, every gun got shit on, people didn't believe in the M4 until they switched to the M5. Suddenly everyone was a fan of the M4 and the M5 is the worst gun ever blablabla. I'm excited for the kino and how well the 6.8 round performs. Other than that nothing really changed.
This rifle is pointless because there is body armour that stops .50BMG
Yup yet another thread full of a bunch of dumbasses that cant grasp the reasoning or thought behind the contract. Just morons seething that their favorite brand of metal and polymer is likely to be phased out from general use. Why the frick are people so invested in this silly shit?
Right and tanks exist as well and are just as likely to be given to every soldier on the battlefield.
Dude this stuff weighs the same as regular lvl 4 body amour. Why wouldn't it become standard issue?
RM277 is better
i can't wait until someone spills the beans and talks about how dogshit it was and how many case heads exploded during the trials
Why would the case heads explode?
because the case is plastic
I've never had issues with the TV ammo yet(Yes i shilled the $2.50/round to try it out). noticeable difference in weight when you load up all your mags even with the heavier 168 boolet. When it get's cheaper it's definitely going to be my go to but until then it's the beaner bullets or SIG copper elite's when i want to punch through cheap hunks of steel.
SIG winning and delaying widespread adoption of polymer rounds is honestly the worst part of this program. We could’ve had actual advancements in ammo tech, but instead the army chooses the bubba wildcat round.
>We could’ve had actual advancements in ammo tech, but instead the army chooses the bubba wildcat round.
Yea the thing actually uses a substantially less amount of powder to make it perform like standard factory loads with ball powder. Imagine how fast shit could be pushed while still maintaining the standard pressure ratings. unsure if they were doing that in the NGSW trials since it seems they just submitted a more efficient .270 Winchester due to the fact of taking advantage of a bullpup design for the longer barrel to push the lighter bullet faster.
Since the polymer ammo is obviously what the .308 was to the 30-06, TV could one day just make a new cartridge again that's literally just either a skinnier cased .308 or shorter one(like the WSSM fad) and build some guns and chamberings around that or do both and somehow manage to push a 150 grain 30 cal from a 300 blackout casing, might have to use the slightly wider 6.5 grendel casing or something. Maybe someone brave enough to shill out some extra coin to the paypig called patents while it's still alive instead of waiting years for it to become kill.
It's like Americans are allergic to efficiency, first their cars, now their ammo.
Unfortunately the people in charge of adopting new things are always afraid of change despite it not even being a radical change that questions your entire way of thinking.
>2 fricking charging handles
>2
The cope is always over the few left handed Black folk or literal fricking morons who live on repetitive stimuli to change a simple though process.
Molded over a steel base moron.
Ah yes, I'm sure there's no way that could come undone. Well, maybe if it was subject to some sort of tiny explosion, but what are the chances of that happening?
Polymer is extremely strong ya moron.
Stronger than steel? I think not.
No
Don't care
the TV gao protest has been withdrawn, its all ogre I am so sad bros
Recoil system is superior
god damn anon, thats some beautiful shit
i pray one day to achieve this
isn't LMT just swapping Britian's DMR rifles with a 6.8 upper in a response to this?
What exactly is the point of the SPEAR if you just put in a relatively easy swap barrel+chamber due to higher wear of the higher pressure round?
6.5 creedmoor
Same stuff SOCOM rechambered 7.62mm sniper/dmr rifles with. Not the 6.8 "common cartridge" the M5 and M250 are using to supersede 5.56mm
It seems like a bad idea, FW doing a video on it talking about not needing a super long-lived service weapon based on recent combat data from Ukraine was interesting in justifying the super high-pressure round burning out barrels fast but idk how expendable a new, expensive rifle is going to be if they intend to issue them all with suppressors and the new optics standard. I think the rifle will perform adequately but it's probably not going to be this big game-changer the military wants and its problems will become apparent (like with any new-issued thing) when put to the test and we'll see if they commit to an A1 design or drop it. Think the biggest hit in the long-term will be the cost of the rifle in the wake of supply chain disruptions in the future, and they'd have to rely on their old stock of M4's/M16s/etc. if things get really bad
Knowing the nu-military they're going to destroy those guns the instant there's an M5 to replace it. Don't want anything ending up on the surplus market, can't trust those lowely civilians. Hey Akhmed and Jose need some guns? we can give them to you on the downlow hush hush on gawd and Awlah fr fr no cap.
hey there's a brand new ATF director to get all those outdated guns into the hands of cartels/"ukranians"/schizo loners so it'll all work out. nothing bad has ever happened when the government sold weapons to less-than-scrupulous parties :*~~*~~
When Ian talked about the plastic ammo, he actually said it makes the gun hotter. That's why he said the sig spear was the right choice, while the other guns were dumb. Ian doesn't understand thermodynamics.
Never rely on a gun to be replaced in a military context.
The M60 was built for a great war across the European Plain and was essentially that very concept of a not very long lived service weapon. Only it worked out that instead they were used for 30 years and by the end were so clapped out as to be nearly unfunctional in many cases.
Nothing is ever thrown out or retrofitted in the military unless its exploded.
its for civilian body armor not russian or chink
>/k/ ree's for years about muh battle rifles
>US moves back towards full powered battle rifles
>/k/ ree's
Why do you even care what /k/ thinks? Most are poors, underaged, or, worst of all, European. Their opinion doesn't matter as none of them will ever shoot the .277 Fury round anytime soon.
>make ammo to defeat body armour that nearly nobody runs
it's pretty much pointless, unless they unironically think China/Russia has a massive surplus of 55A1-defeating body armour laying around
They think boog larpers have a massive surplus of 55A1-defeating body armour laying around
I think it's a cool rifle and I'd cop and shoot but the ammo price is nuts and gonna stay nuts
Fun fact: The designer of the XM5 weapon platform is actually a trans woman.
Really? I need to see this. It would explain why they couldn't decide on it having either an AR type charging handle or a side charging handle.
No bayonet?
Surprised nobody posted about the barrel life yet so i'll do it instead.
Turns out the 10k number was never actually mentioned, the program requirement was 6k and SIG's computer models estimated their barrels might be able to do 12k rounds.
As far as anyone can tell they've never actually did any physical on this so as far as we know the actual number is far lower.
If this is true then SIG must’ve hired top tier super model level hookers for the brass along with their bribes.
But if it’s true, then TVs GAO petition would’ve been won, yet TV withdrew it?
I don't know what been going on with the GOA petition.
>As far as anyone can tell they've never actually did any physical on this
Utter horseshit. Sig absolutely would have done live fire testing on their barrels until they failed. The NGSW program also did have endurance range days, where they'd shoot 10k rounds while an engineer was on standby to try and fix any problems that arise. This is what got Textron disqualified. They failed reliability testing.
I haven't seen anything official on this.
Also again, where do you people keep pulling this 10k number from? I haven't seen it anywhere in any articles official or otherwise, as far as i can see someone on this board made that claim once and everyone ran with it.
https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/ssd-exclusive-5-questions-on-next-generation-squad-weapons-with-sig-ceo-ron-cohen/
>RC: Barrel life has been a major challenge since day one. We fought with barrel and component life three years ago. Now, I’m not nervous about barrel life. The M4’s barrel life is set at 6,000 rounds. We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings.
>sig-ceo-ron-cohen/
Hahaha
After all the RDX propellant and telescoped ammo tests I'm surprised it doesn't use both.
I get militaries are slow to adopt new technology due to fears of it not working but still using standard ammo with a minor mod to increase pressure just seems like a small improvement to be stuck with for the next 50 years.
If polymer continues to improve, there's a slight chance that 6.8mm will be switched to that. Very slight. Spec ops will continue to use whatever they want.
The rest of NATO probably won't follow the US on this switch, too. They'll wait and see how it works out for the US. Test the sig spear with their spec ops. I expect them to take a decade to follow suit, assume the US sticks with 6.8mm for that long.
It's such a minor leap part of me thinks congress and arms manufactures have come to an agreement.
>adopt this minor upgrade
>order 1 million of them
>plus parts and contractors training
>in 10 years we'll do it again
Beats waiting another 50 years to throw serious money at small arms donors.
>congress and arms manufactures have come to an agreement
Yes, you could say that. Especially considering how Sig now makes the army's pistol, rifle, LPVO and MMG. There's quite a big "agreement" between congress and one arms manufacturer.
SIG's the next Colt.
or just any other big company that decides to dedicate themselves to government contracts. When do you think they're gonna do that "for military/law enforcement use only" meme thing they end up doing which completely destroys their market base to either end up going bankrupt or dedicate themselves to only live off of one product shilled by the boomers that plague this board (aimpoint, trijicon, Eokek, etc)
M5A1 when
When they realize 2 charging handles is stupid and add a third that's reciprocating because there needs to be a forward assist.