Wearing Tourniquets

Wouldn't it be optimal for soldiers to wear untightened tourniquets all the time?
When losing a lot of blood fast the wounded soldier has very little time to self apply a tourniquet. Severe weakness hits fast.
So let's say you get hit in the leg, femoral raptured. Instead of finding the tourniquet, opening it, etc; you immediately rush to tighten the already preapplied tq.
In advance apologies for the stupid question. I just saw a video of a russian dying from a leg bleed, and thought of this.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I thought of this once, too.
    It makes sense, altough the windlass on the one I edc sometimes pokes me; can't imagine 4+ all over. If it's the same video, that vat didn't even have one, was using a nearly transparent worn out hankie...

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Make them from tough Velcro straps built into the uniform that can be unhooked, yanked really right, and then tightened with a windlass.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I’ve also thought about this, having tourniquets integrated into specific slots of the uniform. The idea doesn’t actually seem bad, it would remove a lot of the time and fuss of equipping a tourniquet. However it could be uncomfortable to have to wear all the time. Maybe attaching the tourniquets just before a combat operation would solve this.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Have tourniquets built into uniform
      >PFC dickhead keeps tightening them on guys when they aren't looking to be a c**t, it's only a minor annoyance for them to loosen it but means they end up needing replacement constantly

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Rationale for military medical decision making based on the actions of dickhead PFCs

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          If you're working with tards you have to buy tard proof equipment. That's just how it goes.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Having the tightening sections under light velcro would fix that, since you'd be able to hear it before it happened and would protect it from wear.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I remember when they first started issuing IOTV's, we all used to go around pulling the rip cord on everyone's. Was funny to make them have to spend 5 minutes reaassembling it with a quick pull

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >tourniquets integrated into uniform
      I think I remember this concept from a sci fi book or show, but not sure which one

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It’s standard in pretty much all David Drake books (or, at least, some way to stop the bleeding). I know that Empire from the Ashes specifically mentions it when Amanda looses a leg, and Path of the Fury should mention something similar after DeVries is shot near the beginning.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          iirc the suits in Forever War had irises in the joints to cut off bleeding from lost limbs

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        In the Harry Harrison short story " No war, or battle's sound", the combatants wear soft combat suits with built-in seals and tourniquets at each joint of their limbs. They can activate these manually, or when in space, the suit detects depressurization and deploys them automatically. I think for modern soldiers, putting a tourniquet below the knee, hip, shoulder and elbow would be a good idea. The TQ could ride in a special pocket around the limb, like the drawstring inside track pants. If the windlass were made in such a way that it laid flat and followed the direction of the limb, and attached so it didn't dangle, maybe have it entirely covered in velcro and a corresponding patch on the uniform, it would be no more intrusive than a pen in pen pocket and would not interfere with mobility. Would be pretty simple and inexpensive to implement and could save lives.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      TQs integrated into the uniform limits the ability of a combat medic to render aid. You might need to TQ but you might also need to cut the uniform up at the same spot to treat something else. They're best kept separate.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    blackhawk tried to do that but failed. google for details

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      this Blackhawk made a uniform with tourniquets built into it

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        oh and this

        these are old blackhawk pants they dont make anymore, TK built in, good idea, bad end product.

        too

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This is exactly what wagner did in Bakhmut

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      They ran around with 4 of them? No wonder so many seem to not even have any.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I don't believe in tourniquets, never needed them in Iraq and never used them in Afghanistan

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      is there even evidence beyond anecdotal stories or "the manual says" that tourniquets are any good? what if the bleeding isnt so severe? then you have just killed your leg for nothing. what if you tourniqueted your leg successfully but no one comes to evac you or treat you? are you now bound to a slow and painful death feeling how your leg dies under your tourniquet.

      >ignoring the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
      >ignoring the decades of combat studies which show that extremity hemorrhage is the leading cause of death
      Everything is useless until you need to use it.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
        may i see them? do you have a link for a quick read?

        >just killed your leg for nothing
        Doesn't it take like 3+ hours for that nowadays? I mean if you know it will take that long to get help, maybe, but I bet you could just losen it at the 2hr mark if you know it's hopeless and by then perhaps you'd be bleeding less and could start moving towards assistance.

        i dont think a leg that has seen no blood flow for 2 hours can still be moved. by that time the veins are probably clotted up and filled with potassium from the dying cells in the leg. if the flow restarts and the clots and the potassium rush back into your heart it might create problems.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I was just trying real hard to steelman your scenario; thinking more a stranded situation, but even then you'd be better off just stumbling with a dead limb.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >may i see them?
          Nay. I'm just gonna call you a moron.
          I never wear seat belts either because I've never been in a accident.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >I don’t think
          We know anon. If you weren’t a moronic baboon, you might look up tourniquet use during orthopedic surgery. Tourniquet times routinely reach 2+ hours with zero ill effect other than lowering blood pressure transiently and dropping body temp due to cold blood returning to circulation. So quit acting like a redditor and thinking your intuition and reasoning means shit.
          t. anesthetist

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            but anon don't you know the second you put a tourniquet on that limb is going to rot off infront of your eyes within minutes?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Happens all the time during SABC practice. Someone forgets to release their training TQs, lunch break ensues and suddenly there's a pile of limbs around the smoke pit. At least the VA considers it service connected. I've even seen heads detach but officers don't need those.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >look up tourniquet use during orthopedic surgery.
            ok mister anesthesist

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8094224/

            >evidence shows that knee replacement surgery with a tourniquet is probably associated with an increased risk of serious adverse events. Surgery with a tourniquet is also probably associated with higher postoperative pain

            https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30822788/
            >there are several significant downsides associated with tourniquet use including postoperative pain, neuromuscular injuries, wound complications, reperfusion injury, increased risk of thrombosis, patellar tracking issues, delayed rehabilitation including decreased postoperative range of motion, and its negative effect on patients with vascular disease.

            so much for "zero ill effect". you might be doctors and all that fancy university shit but i can still prove you wrong in seconds. so much hybris and then you have the gall to call me names. very high class mister anesthesist.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >I don’t think
              We know anon. If you weren’t a moronic baboon, you might look up tourniquet use during orthopedic surgery. Tourniquet times routinely reach 2+ hours with zero ill effect other than lowering blood pressure transiently and dropping body temp due to cold blood returning to circulation. So quit acting like a redditor and thinking your intuition and reasoning means shit.
              t. anesthetist

              and how would you even know? youre a fricking anesthesist, you see the patient for a few hours and then probably never again. when the patient then has all sorts of problems in the upcoming days, weeks, months, years, you will never even hear about it.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                THE DAMN TOURNIQUETS ARE POISONING PATIENTS WITH WOKE BLOOD WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!
                NOONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE LONG TERM EFFECTS OF TOURNIQUETS!!!!
                QANON PREDICTED THIS!

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                They’re also turning the freakin’ frogs gay

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                They’re also turning the freakin’ frogs gay

                I've been pretending to be moronic for most of this thread (I'm not OP, though)... But I suppose some things can go from a joke to serious pretty quickly for some autists. I take everything back.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah there's acid buildup and if it's released back into your body you die. Theres a counteragent you can be injected with that neutralizes it

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            while high levels of lactic acid/lactate may promote chronic inflammation, lactate actually has an inhibitory effect on inflammation in the acute setting
            >lactate was shown to significantly reduce the production of TNF-α and IL-6 and the activation and nuclear translocation of NF-κB and YAP through the GPR81 pathway in LPS-stimulated macrophages
            >lactate can inhibit TLR-mediated activation of mononuclear macrophages, delay the phosphorylation of Akt and the degradation of IκBα, and inhibit the secretion of cytokines TNF-α, IL-23, and chemokine CCL2, CCL7
            >the concentration of lactate and its effect on culture medium acidity are related to different effects;
            >for example, 12.5mM lactate reduced the pH of the culture medium to 6.7 and inhibited cytokine production
            >and adjusting the pH to 7.4 reversed the inhibitory effect of lactate in dendritic cells
            so if anything, the build-up of lactate is protective for the limb.
            and if you know anything about biochemistry, then you know that lactate shunting will easily take care of this build-up when the TQ is released.
            finally, the build-up of extracellular potassium is also easily managed with cardiac support (start IV calcium, insulin, and glucose before release to stabilize).
            hemodialysis if available, and monitor EKG for arrhythmia and treat accordingly
            really isn't that complicated, any good trauma doc can do this in his sleep

            >major artery being cut,
            and how do you know a "major artery" has been cut? it could bleed internally and you wouldnt see much from the outside.

            teach yourself anatomy and physiology, homosexual

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              dude, we are talking about field conditions here in a war. there is no hemodialysis available, soldiers will see a trauma doc days after the injury. whatever is below the tourniquet line is dead and infected.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      >ignoring the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
      >ignoring the decades of combat studies which show that extremity hemorrhage is the leading cause of death
      Everything is useless until you need to use it.

      Are you arguing against stopping a massive fricking hemorrhage?

      https://i.imgur.com/gZlTDjj.jpg

      yes, kind of. the human body has this thing called "hemostasis". it stops bleeding, you know.

      https://i.imgur.com/lxFhXcK.png

      [...]
      [...]
      >hmmm i think... also they don't teach it any more......
      yeah man there's nobody looking into this, it's all cope. PHTLS military does not contain 350+ inline citations to back up the concepts. you got em cornered, go for the kill anon.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30020226/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605726/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19106667/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33895335/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19717268/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25420089/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33138876/

      Are you moronic enough to think that will stop a massive fricking arterial bleed? Holy shit.

      Rule 1 of trauma medicine: All bleeding stops eventually.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I don't believe in splints, I never needed them when I fought toddlers in the park

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      what if you had to fight in an actual war though

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Wouldn't it be optimal for soldiers to wear untightened tourniquets all the time?
    I've heard that was a thing, mostly among SOF
    >In 2011, during an interview with former Army surgeon Dr. Ron Glasser, National Public Radio reported “Marines, without anyone ordering them to do so, have begun heading out on foot patrols with the tourniquets already loosely strapped around their thighs, so they can be tightened quickly if a foot or a leg is blown off.” And, “Officers don’t like it. They view it as a kind of defeatism on the part of the troops.” He continued: “But the Marines don’t care. They basically say, ‘The hell with it. We’re going to wear it anyway. If our legs get blown off, at least we’ll survive.’” And, in ’09 the Wall Street Journal published a photo of Marines from Lima Company wearing tourniquets loosely on their ankles in Zad, Afghanistan.
    https://www.southeastreview.org/single-post/2018/11/05/tourniquet

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      It was a staple among supply convoys in mid 2000s Iraq. That's where it started (since IEDs in the pre-MRAP phases where making multiple amputees) and it continued on among other units.

      is there even evidence beyond anecdotal stories or "the manual says" that tourniquets are any good? what if the bleeding isnt so severe? then you have just killed your leg for nothing. what if you tourniqueted your leg successfully but no one comes to evac you or treat you? are you now bound to a slow and painful death feeling how your leg dies under your tourniquet.

      This is what boomers believed before GWOT millennials shat on their face with blood and science.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    is there even evidence beyond anecdotal stories or "the manual says" that tourniquets are any good? what if the bleeding isnt so severe? then you have just killed your leg for nothing. what if you tourniqueted your leg successfully but no one comes to evac you or treat you? are you now bound to a slow and painful death feeling how your leg dies under your tourniquet.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >just killed your leg for nothing
      Doesn't it take like 3+ hours for that nowadays? I mean if you know it will take that long to get help, maybe, but I bet you could just losen it at the 2hr mark if you know it's hopeless and by then perhaps you'd be bleeding less and could start moving towards assistance.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah its not a factor if medical care can be provided within a couple hours, which is always if you're not a turdworlder. Some morons also don't wear seatbelts because there is a small chance it is deterimental in certain situations.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >if medical care can be provided within a couple hours
          i have seen several webms of wounded soldiers that are being carried on stretchers getting grenades dropped on them.so i think in a real war like in ukraine if you get wounded in nomans land no one is coming to help you.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yep. Turldworlders will die regardless of what you do.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >we should make medical decisions for our military based off of Russia's (lack of) CASEVAC standards
            Are you well? Do you have bain damage?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >we should only train for best case scenarios
              >we will never face an enemy that might impede our casevac plans
              >we will never face an enemy that has drones, artillery, mortar or an air force
              what could go wrong with such a way of thinking?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I'm just saying that the US has always made a big deal about rescuing wounded soldiers, whereas Russia has historically thrown away their soldiers like scraps of meat. A $30 TQ is a no brainer if it means not bleeding out while you wait for CASEVAC, especially in every scenario you just mentioned where regular CASEVAC via helicopter might be delayed or unavailable.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Doesn't it take like 3+ hours for that nowadays?
        Anything up to two hours and your chance of any serious harm to the limb is pretty much nil.
        Anything past six hours and your chance of escaping serious complications is pretty much nil (even then you're not guaranteed to lose the limb though, there was one case of a Chinook pilot who had a tourniquet left in place for 16h and still had mostly-functioning hand once the docs did their job).
        Between 2-6 hours it depends.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660095/

        Pretty much.
        If medical treatment is more than 1-2h hours away then you can trial removal of the tourniquet.
        Make sure the casualty is stable (I.e. if they're so close to death that any rebleeding will kill them, then don't risk it), that you've taken care of any other injuries, and that the wound is properly taken care of (wound packing and direct pressure). If the wound starts bleeding uncontrollably then put the tq back on an don't remove it until you've reached definitive treatment, better they lose the limb than bleed out from multiple failed attempts to remove the tq.
        DO NOT remove the tq if it has been left in place for >6 hours. Toxins built up in the limb from dying muscle can kill the patient.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10662576/

        the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
        may i see them? do you have a link for a quick read?

        [...]
        i dont think a leg that has seen no blood flow for 2 hours can still be moved. by that time the veins are probably clotted up and filled with potassium from the dying cells in the leg. if the flow restarts and the clots and the potassium rush back into your heart it might create problems.

        >i dont think a leg that has seen no blood flow for 2 hours can still be moved
        Fortunately, no one cares what your moronic ass thinks.
        Fricking hell, what makes a man speak so confidently on a topic he knows frick all about?
        You're an idiot, bro. Next time you get the urge to throw your 2 cents into the, don't. You'll escape a lot of embarrassment that way.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Fortunately, no one cares what your moronic ass thinks.
          >Fricking hell, what makes a man speak so confidently on a topic he knows frick all about?
          >You're an idiot, bro. Next time you get the urge to throw your 2 cents into the, don't. You'll escape a lot of embarrassment that way.

          >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30020226/

          >Tourniquet (TK) and no TK (NTK) groups were identified.
          "Amputation and mortality rates did not differ between groups

          MORTALITY RATES DID NOT DIFFER BETWEEN GROUPS

          so basically tourniquets didnt improve survival at all. are the guys that published this paper "idiots" and "moronic asses"????

          david cauvar is a professor of surgery, i think he knows some shit.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Mortality rates did not differ between groups despite the TK group demonstrating a more severe injury profile
            >This is somehow an argument against tourniquets
            Man, I really hope you're just pretending to be moronic.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Abbreviated Injury Scale extremity and Mangled Extremity Severity Score tended toward greater injury severity.
              >tended
              an odd word to use if the difference was so big, dont you think? also they only looked retrospectively at injuries that featured damaged arteries but in the real world grunts will put a tourniquet on every scratch if you promote its use. so nah nah, my concerns are valid.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                anon, are you fricking moronic?
                >tended
                means "was more likely to". You know, a tendency? A pattern that has outliers?
                >depite the TK group being more severe, both groups had similar mortality rates
                >ergo tourniquets normalized the added injury and brought mortality rates in line with the non-TK group

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33138876/
                >Among 3,460 screened records, 55 studies were identified as relevant. The studies were highly heterogeneous with low quality of evidence.
                >few had relevant comparators, and the survival benefit was difficult to estimate

                so im not alone in my opinion. and if you want people to use tourniquets properly you better address these concerns.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30020226/
            "Amputation and mortality rates did not differ between groups, but the incidence of severe edema, wound infection, and foot drop was higher in the TK group. Vascular above-knee amputation, arterial repair complication, and severe edema were higher in the TK group"

            so thats not exactly an argument in favor of using tourniquets.

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605726/
            may suffer from selection bias. more research needed

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19106667/
            hospital setting in peace time iraq, might not be applicable in general

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33895335/
            statistical methods used are weak.

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25420089/
            doesnt actually say wheter tourniquets are good or not

            >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33138876/

            "The studies were highly heterogeneous with low quality of evidence. Most studies reported increased survival in the tourniquet group, but few had relevant comparators, and the survival benefit was difficult to estimate."

            "Despite relatively low evidence, the studies consistently suggested that the use of commercial tourniquets in a civilian setting to control life-threatening extremity hemorrhage seemed to be associated with improved survival"

            >low evidence
            >suggested
            >seem to be associated

            thats not exactly hard evidence and mostly in peace time setting (yeah sorry but 2010 iraq was not a real hard core peer on peer war), but okay, thanks for the read and thanks for posting actual evidence.

            the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
            may i see them? do you have a link for a quick read?

            [...]
            i dont think a leg that has seen no blood flow for 2 hours can still be moved. by that time the veins are probably clotted up and filled with potassium from the dying cells in the leg. if the flow restarts and the clots and the potassium rush back into your heart it might create problems.

            This is what happens when you stop bullying. morons don't learn how moronic they are.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Are you arguing against stopping a massive fricking hemorrhage?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        yes, kind of. the human body has this thing called "hemostasis". it stops bleeding, you know.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Shit. I spend like $60 on them in total and it turns out they're bunk?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            i dont know. probably im wrong in some way. they just seem more like a cope to me. they give soldiers a sense of security as in "if i get hit i will just put a tourniquet on and everything will be fine" while in reality it might not actually be that useful or cause more harm than good. in first aid tourniquets are no longer taught because apparently people applied them too often or wrong.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              You should tourniquet your neck to stop the bleeding moronation spilling out of your brain. Promise you it'l work.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >i dont know
              could've stopped there

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              > in first aid tourniquets are no longer taught
              That is straight up not true.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              They're still taught but we were told to, if possible, use constant pressure until the ambulance arrives instead (as opposed to using constant pressure until you can put a tourniquet). Although there's still times when you need to use a tourniquet anyway, like when the guy is bleeding out and the foreign object (like a knife) is still inside the wound, you can't apply pressure all around it so you should put a tourniquet.
              That said some buddy of mines had some dude rip his whole foot off somehow so they put a fricking tourniquet instead of hugging the stump
              >t. first aid volunteer

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >in first aid tourniquets are no longer taught
              They are literally the definitive first aid for arterial bleeding. You're a fricking stupid Black person moron and should tourniquet your neck.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Are you moronic enough to think that will stop a massive fricking arterial bleed? Holy shit.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yes he is that stupid.
            My mother once managed to cut her arterial on her arm and an amazing amount of blood kept pouring out every heart pump. Luckily she was able to keep pressure on it, but still lmao she'd have straight up frickin died otherwise.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So it turns out that purpose made tourniquets have a shelf life and don't handle being laundered very well. I think the idea has merit as a makeshift system until a propery tourniquet can be applied.

          Tourniquets are applied when the bloodloss exceeds the body's ability to clot. It's an emergency measure to stop lethal bloodloss.

          Or are you saying it's impossible to bleed to death?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Hemostasis is different for everyone, even the simplest aspect, your platelet count, differs massively between people. And with catastrophic bleeds a high platelet count just gives you more time to get treated, it's not like you can just walk it off

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      the numerous actual studies which have shown that tourniquets drastically increase survivability
      may i see them? do you have a link for a quick read?

      [...]
      i dont think a leg that has seen no blood flow for 2 hours can still be moved. by that time the veins are probably clotted up and filled with potassium from the dying cells in the leg. if the flow restarts and the clots and the potassium rush back into your heart it might create problems.

      https://i.imgur.com/gZlTDjj.jpg

      yes, kind of. the human body has this thing called "hemostasis". it stops bleeding, you know.

      >hmmm i think... also they don't teach it any more......
      yeah man there's nobody looking into this, it's all cope. PHTLS military does not contain 350+ inline citations to back up the concepts. you got em cornered, go for the kill anon.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30020226/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605726/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19106667/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33895335/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19717268/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25420089/
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33138876/

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30020226/
        "Amputation and mortality rates did not differ between groups, but the incidence of severe edema, wound infection, and foot drop was higher in the TK group. Vascular above-knee amputation, arterial repair complication, and severe edema were higher in the TK group"

        so thats not exactly an argument in favor of using tourniquets.

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29605726/
        may suffer from selection bias. more research needed

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19106667/
        hospital setting in peace time iraq, might not be applicable in general

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33895335/
        statistical methods used are weak.

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25420089/
        doesnt actually say wheter tourniquets are good or not

        >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33138876/

        "The studies were highly heterogeneous with low quality of evidence. Most studies reported increased survival in the tourniquet group, but few had relevant comparators, and the survival benefit was difficult to estimate."

        "Despite relatively low evidence, the studies consistently suggested that the use of commercial tourniquets in a civilian setting to control life-threatening extremity hemorrhage seemed to be associated with improved survival"

        >low evidence
        >suggested
        >seem to be associated

        thats not exactly hard evidence and mostly in peace time setting (yeah sorry but 2010 iraq was not a real hard core peer on peer war), but okay, thanks for the read and thanks for posting actual evidence.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I am a doctor. I have read thousands, if not tens of thousands of papers on pubmed. It is not particularly hard to find a paper on pubmed that in or out of context says what you want it to say. The long and short of it is that in austere environments, tourniquets are the only intervention that can prevent death in a gunshot wound to the extremity. This has been extremely rigorously studied in the civilian and military world.Tourniquets are not without risk, but the alternative is dying or suffering kidney, liver, bowel, and potentially brain damage from being in hemorrhage shock. Never in my life have I thought someone would deny a tourniquet because it is unnatural, but natural selection is the most innovative force known to man so I'm not surprised. If you want sources find them yourself. This isn't hard and it'll be good homework. if you want to know why the naturopath approach to stopping a femoral artery bleed doesn't work, I will fricking own you.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >stopping a femoral artery bleed
            the issue is when you are riding on a btr and suddenly there is a loud bang and you fall of the btr and you feel pain in your leg and your pants get wet and red is that a damaged femoral artery or a damaged muscle or a damaged vein?. in hindsight its always easy to say if an injury was severe or not. in the field you dont really know unless its literally an open fracture/amputation with blood literally flowing out of the wound. blood stains everything like crazy so even small wounds look big. where is the cutoff point between "not a big deal" and "omg im bleeding out right now!"?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >riding on a btr and suddenly there is a loud bang and you fall of the btr and you feel pain in your leg and your pants get wet and red is that a damaged femoral artery or a damaged muscle or a damaged vein?. in hindsight its always easy to say if an injury was severe or not. in the field you dont really know unless its literally an open fracture/amputation with blood literally flowing out of the wound. blood stains everything like crazy so even small wounds look big.
              that's why you're supposed to expose the wound and visually check if there's a major bleed; this is basic first aid. If there's enough blood to cause massive stains on your uniform then yes there is a likely chance that you have suffered an injury which will incur continued hemorrhage and you should probably check it out

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >massive stains on your uniform then yes there is a likely chance that you have suffered an injury which will incur continued hemorrhage
                why not just put a bandage on it and apply pressure, wait a few minutes and there you have it, hemostasis?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >just wait a few minutes to see if it's actually an open artery draining you :^)
                great idea anon. if you live, it wasn't that bad. if you die, well now it's not your problem anymore anyway!

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >just wait a few minutes while bleeding out from multiple punture wounds, bro
                11/10 troll if you're not serious, meds/10 otherwise.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Because the blood pressure exceeds the clot's ability to stop. Some arteries are simply too wide to constrict normally and run at pressures that would tear through a clot before it fully forms. Applying pressure on the wound helps but bandages are porus and bleeding can still push through and even pool inside the body.

                Tourniquets are often accompanied by surgery as they treat damage that the body can not manage on it's onw.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I personally think you should apply this process to all emergency medical practices.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                takes 6 minutes or less to bleed out from a major artery being cut, less than 1 minute to go into hypovolemic shock

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >major artery being cut,
                and how do you know a "major artery" has been cut? it could bleed internally and you wouldnt see much from the outside.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          How have you not died from forgetting to breathe yet holy shit.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >then you have just killed your leg for nothing
      news flash moron, you can loosen the tourniquet at any point in time

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >you can loosen the tourniquet at any point in time
        And then what? Release the now toxic blood back in to your bloodstream and suffer a heart attack? moron

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      If it isn't severe the don't use one?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >what if you tourniqueted your leg successfully but no one comes to evac you or treat you? are you now bound to a slow and painful death feeling how your leg dies under your tourniquet.
      if noone comes to evac you, you're done for either way. put on your thinking cap before posting, anon

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      it's not a factor with modern medical solutions, it takes hours to actually kill a limb like that, plus it is preferable to live and lose a limb than die no?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        This, and actually losing a limb is a perfect time to apply a tourniquet.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      After properly applying a tourniquet you have 15 minutes until your limb begins to suffer permenant damage. The actual time between the start of damage and amputation is 4 hours. So you have about 3 hours to get it treated before you lose the limb. That's a lot of time, especially in combat, to find a quiet moment where you can partially strip and take a good look at the bullet hole

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    hot lingere op, do you go out dressed like this often?

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This thread shows that most of /k/ doesn't know how to apply a tourniquet. PRIOR to winching the windlass, the tourniquet should be tight enough that it is difficult or impossible to slip one finger under. Untightened tourniquets are very tight and will constrict the return of venous blood in the limbs.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Israelis used to do that. They also used to tape pre-dose morphine syrettes into their arms before big raids like Entebbe. I dont think they do it anymore because its kinda unnecessary, but I dont believe it didnt work.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Yes it would work. However you risk wearing them out with wash cycles and age or them breaking and not being replaced
    Vs a fresh one kept in a sealed plastic bag.

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I heard that the Ukie "Cyborgs" would do that in the fighting for Donetsk airport.

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I know blackhawk makes pants with built in tourniquets, I think crye and the russians had some designs with the same idea but AFAIK none of them are in mainstream use by anyone

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Just what I need, more snag points and a constant reminder I might lose a limb for Israel/Khazaria.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >snag points
      You are allowed to wear clothing over the tourniquets you weirdo

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Blackhawk! tried this, they didn't work especially well and were eventually discontinued. I have also always wondered about the possibility of winding up with an injury as a result of the built-in TQ being snagged on something.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Already been done. During the US-Filippino war, the local native rebel warriors would tie their limbs tight with rope immediately before an attack. This contributed to their image as capable of taking much damage before dying. It is part of the reason why US troops started carrying shotguns on patrols.

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Worked briefly with a NG Road Clearance team in Afghan whose SOP was 4 TQs pre-fitted every trip.
    They were 90% in vehicles so they sort of stayed in place unlike if walking all day.
    Still likely to trap the ballsack or pocket stuff in a real use by being in suboptimal placement from moving around.
    >it didnt inspire confidence in their safe road clearing skills

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/126356657203?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=126356657203&targetid=1529493969822&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9030087&poi=&campaignid=19851828444&mkgroupid=145880009014&rlsatarget=pla-1529493969822&abcId=9307249&merchantid=550395151&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAi6uvBhADEiwAWiyRdosvc5vq17PXiq89R_xuSvEb_mb9H4WvYM63NcrnuKTIV0wY2SHPMxoC02UQAvD_BwE

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    these are old blackhawk pants they dont make anymore, TK built in, good idea, bad end product.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Sorry, these pants: Blackhawk Warrior Wear (no longer in production)
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/126356657203?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=126356657203&targetid=1529493969822&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9030087&poi=&campaignid=19851828444&mkgroupid=145880009014&rlsatarget=pla-1529493969822&abcId=9307249&merchantid=550395151&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAi6uvBhADEiwAWiyRdosvc5vq17PXiq89R_xuSvEb_mb9H4WvYM63NcrnuKTIV0wY2SHPMxoC02UQAvD_BwE

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The Russian ratnik kit tried this but Russia never implemented it because they're poor.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Russia never implemented it because they're poor.
      Many such cases.

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Worth remembering that you're supposed to put a tourniquet merely 5-10 cm above the wound, so putting them near each joint may not be ideal (better than dying for sure but maybe they were afraid that soldiers would instantly squeeze the tourniquet without assessing the gravity of their injuries and end up worse.
    Also army tourniquets have a rigid part and it would probably snag on something at the worst possible moment.
    And as some guy above pointed out it probably doesn't like being washed.

    However I think the main reasons soldiers aren't trusted with uniforms with integrated tourniquet is out of belief they would squeeze the wrong one if given the choice.

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    optimal is fire superiority, competent medics and dustoff on a 20 minute string. walking around with 8 tourniquets is a nonstarter

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I don't feel "here, wear this for when your leg is blown off" would do a lot for morale.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I dont feel like body armor and medics would do a lot for morale

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Wouldn't it be optimal for soldiers to wear untightened tourniquets all the time?
    it is, someday crye will integrate tourniquets into their $1200 cargo pants and everyone will piss and shidd themselves rushing to buy the new special "SF" forces operator meta

  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The entire point of the stupid uniforms and medals and flags and everything is to trick those idiots into doing this shit and thinking war is glorious, this is counter-purpose for the uniform.

    Also you'll have to pay out more VA claims for the ones that don't bleed out, its better to let the severely damaged ones die on the spot than for the govt to be stuck paying for their ruined health the rest of their lives

  27. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    They do.

  28. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Didn't some sword wielding religious zealots do this? Wear pre- tied tourniquets around their limbs and tighten them when they got injured.

  29. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Probably better to keep it separate from the uniform so it doesn't wear out from normal environmental wear and tear and break when its actually needed. It also can be applied better separately whereas if its integrated into the uniform they'll just tighten it at that spot instead of putting it where it makes the most sense. Integrated tourniquets could lead to worse health outcomes.

  30. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Paraclete tried this and shilled it to Delta, but Delta hated it because Paraclete couldn't tailor the TQ's to be high enough in the limbs for each soldier

  31. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    fricking genius

  32. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
  33. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Because when you are crawling about those tourniquets will catch onto the ground and tighten themselves when this is undesirable.

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