US And UK Could Work Together On Sixth-Gen Fighter Programs

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/how-us-and-uk-could-work-together-on-sixth-gen-fighter-programs

>A leading U.S. Air Force official has raised the possibility of the United States and the United Kingdom working together, to some degree, on their respective next-generation tactical air combat programs.

>U.S. air attaché in London, Col. Charles E. Metrolis, raises, apparently for the first time, the potential for sharing of “insight or capability” between the separate U.S. NGAD and U.K. Tempest programs.

>In an interview with Air Force Magazine’s Greg Hadley, Col. Metrolis said he expected there would be “some avenue for crosstalk in the future in terms of development,” between the United States and the United Kingdom, in regards to sixth-generation air combat programs.

FCAS / SCAF bros I don’t feel so good

  1. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    vatmoron slide thread

  2. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    I mean BAE systems works with both countries anyway so it wouldn't be hard if they are involved.

  3. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    >Japan announce they're fully merging their 6th gen project with the UK instead of something separate designed with help from lockmart
    >Suddenly the US wants to work together with the UK to make 6th gens

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      >Japan/UK/US trilateral 6th gen aircraft development

  4. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    Isn't FCAS dead already because germs pulled out after the frogs were being cunts again?

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      They are arguing over who should be the prime contractor.

      Fances Dassault Aviation was ment to be the lead contractor with Germans Airbus as main partner and Spains Indra covering sensors & systems.

      But now Germany wants to split the contract 50/50 between Airbus and Dassault.

      France now wants Dassault to be the main contractor with Airbus in supporting role.

      Also Airbus isn't happy that Indra was picked by the Spanish.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        Phase 1B/2 of the NGWS/FCAS program has the same industrial scheme as the one already established for Phase 1A:

        • The National Coordinators, Dassault, Airbus D&S GmbH and Indra are the co-contractors for the cross-cooperation activities: the consolidation of the NGWS system of systems, the inter-pillar coherence and the SIMLAB development and validation laboratory.
        • In the Next Generation Fighter Pillar, led by Dassault Aviation, Airbus D&S SAU is the Main Partner alongside Airbus D&S GmbH.
        • In the Engine Pillar, Safran Aircraft Engines and MTU Aero Engines will form a Joint Venture that will act as Main Contractor, with ITP Aero as Main Partner.
        • In the Remote Carriers Pillar, led by Airbus D&S GmbH, SATNUS (a consortium comprising GMV, SENER Aeroespacial and TECNOBIT) is the Main Partner alongside MBDA.
        • In the Systems/Combat Cloud System Pillar, led by Airbus D&S GmbH, Indra is the Main Partner alongside Thales.
        • In the Sensors Pillar, Indra is the Main Contractor, with Thales and the German FCMS (a consortium made up of Hensoldt, Rohde&Schwarz, Diehl and ESG) as the Main Partners.
        • In the ELOT (Low Observable Technologies) Pillar, Airbus D&S SAU is the Main Contractor, with Dassault and Airbus D&S GmbH as the Main Partners.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        Dassault is the only manufacturer on the entire continent which can deliver a good design.
        I wonder if some kraut politicians aren't paid/blackmailed by americans to systematically sabotage projects of a french-german fighter.

        • 5 days ago
          Anonymous

          >I wonder if some kraut politicians aren't paid/blackmailed by americans

          No, America would never do such a thing...

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals#West_Germany

  5. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    All of these "Sixth Gen fighters" I see in concept have no vertical stabilizers. How the fuck are they expected to fly without them? Why would you design it like this even if you could? The X-29 project proved that the design could work, but taught us a valuable lesson about trying to reinvent the wheel: Fucking Don't.

    • 5 days ago
      afatoldman

      I'm no expert, but advanced flight controls + fly by light means you can make just about any shape fly, as long as you have thrust and lift. The B2 does it.

      • 5 days ago
        afatoldman

        As does the X47B.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/pM4eUto.jpg

        As does the X47B.

        and the B-21, which we should supposedly be getting a public reveal by the end of the year or early next year.

        • 5 days ago
          Anonymous

          >Manned
          I wish the US would stop this already
          Ethics out, AI in.

          • 5 days ago
            Anonymous

            Most these new platforms are designed to be optionally manned from the get-go, or optionally manned after a later upgrade.

          • 5 days ago
            Anonymous

            These are likely to serve as controllers for forward ai units. Large bombers will be more standoffish then most others so it is ok to at least have the option of being manned.

      • 4 days ago
        Anonymous

        split air brake/control surfaces at the tip of each wing, drive them differentially to provide yaw control

    • 5 days ago
      Indian Shill

      Fly by wire or fly by light(using optical fibres) which will become the standard in most 5.5 and 6th gens.

  6. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    It's all vauge bullshit that we already knew anyway.

    Of course the US might not sell NGAD to UK/JP but they're probably perfectly willing to share certain tech that the NGAD is based on with UK/JP.

    There is almost no chance in hell the NGAD (either USAF or USN) gets spun into either the UK/JP 6th gen projects.

  7. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    >Frogs and Krauts team up
    >Brexit happens
    >UK not looking good to join the program
    >Starts their own
    >Italy joins
    >Sweden joins
    >Japan then says it'll make the engine
    >Japan then says it'll merge with the UK design
    >India offered a chance but declined
    >Now USA is possibly joining
    I've always thought the Americans and Bongs should work together on more stuff. It'd take some really diabolical events to split the partnership. I mean Biden is pretty bad seeing as he's 'muh remember the potato famine' gay (and compared the events in Palestine to Bongs paying the Irish back for all their raping and pillaging).

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      then says it'll make the engine
      then says it'll merge with the UK design
      So TECHNICALLY not true, Japan and the UK have agreed on a joint engine development project between IHI Corp, Mitsubishi heavy industries, and Rolls-Royce. BUT neither the UK or Japan's 6th gen fighters have actually announced they'll be using the engine developed between these companies, simply that it is a testbed prototype incorporating 6th gen technologies from all the companies, they COULD make that testbed between them then both go back and domestically produce their own version for their own 6th gen projects without each other being involved after the testbed project.

      Further, Japan did NOT say they're going to merge with the UK design, there ARE talks about sharing some design elements with the airframe and POTENTIALLY sharing further development down the road that COULD eventually end up with the projects merging someday.

      At the moment though, both the UK and Japan are officially developing two separate domestic 6th gen projects with no official word on if any of the joint development stuff will actually make it into the final designs, or if they'll be doing further joint development and an eventual project merging (or two very similar but still distinct 6th gen designs).

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      The americans will just come to fuck shit up and stall.

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      then says it'll make the engine
      then says it'll merge with the UK design
      So TECHNICALLY not true, Japan and the UK have agreed on a joint engine development project between IHI Corp, Mitsubishi heavy industries, and Rolls-Royce. BUT neither the UK or Japan's 6th gen fighters have actually announced they'll be using the engine developed between these companies, simply that it is a testbed prototype incorporating 6th gen technologies from all the companies, they COULD make that testbed between them then both go back and domestically produce their own version for their own 6th gen projects without each other being involved after the testbed project.

      Further, Japan did NOT say they're going to merge with the UK design, there ARE talks about sharing some design elements with the airframe and POTENTIALLY sharing further development down the road that COULD eventually end up with the projects merging someday.

      At the moment though, both the UK and Japan are officially developing two separate domestic 6th gen projects with no official word on if any of the joint development stuff will actually make it into the final designs, or if they'll be doing further joint development and an eventual project merging (or two very similar but still distinct 6th gen designs).

      important distinctions here, yes UK and Japan appear to be collaborating, but it's hardly a sure thing that their programs have merged, as of yet no official from either government has confirmed an actual merge of the two programs.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        It's virtually certain, if both want 6th gen. Neither the UK or Japan on its own could afford the cost of development. Whatever the projected cost of 6th gen triple it, to get near what it will really cost, the US can and will afford it.

        • 5 days ago
          Anonymous

          I'll still wait until anyone from either government actually confirms a merge of the two projects

          • 5 days ago
            Anonymous

            Enjoy the wait, but in the meantime tell me how either the UK or Japan can afford the costs on their own

            • 5 days ago
              Anonymous

              They can afford it if they think it's necessary.

              And again, all official known deals so far are about specific components and their joint development or joint research/development of major tech features. To suggest that means they MUST be merging the programs is premature.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                I would suggest you take a lengthy look at both countries economic situation and finances.
                Please look at previous projects that the UK deemed to join because of the shared costs.
                So again please explain to me where the money for either country to have an individual 6gen is coming from. We are not the USA.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                If the EU got its shit together and went forth with being able to fund weapons development for european nations on a collective scale, it probably could.
                Would require an expansion of the EU as a military alliance though, good thing we're in exactly the sort of timeline where that might be viable soon.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                We are not in the eu, and they would certainly not help fund a UK 6gen. I totally agree they should get their shit together but properly fund their NATO commitments before attempting a unified eu military under the germans/french.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                There was a recent idea of creating a second EU sphere for potential EU nations that the Brits expressed interest in. I wouldn't count it out completely.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                I would not count it out I agree, but I believe in the primacy of NATO. But that does not preclude further alliances. Obviously finances are an important factor

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                Japan spent like $500M+ USD developing a single 5th gen prototype that they didn't even end up putting into production.

                A 6th gen that they plan to commercialize and sell to western nations will of course cost a lot more, but they're looking to make back dividends if they can offer a 6th gen to the international market before either the US or Europe.

                The 2020 estimate japan had for the F-X 6th gen development project is about $48B USD.

                Clearly they understand it'll be expensive and they seem to be willing to do it themselves even without US assistance (they already turned down several US defense contractor designs in favor of a domestic aircraft)

                I can't speak for the UK, but their project is already being jointly developed and funded, so the UK already has help with their budget concerns for this project.

                Yes, japan and UK COULD end up joining together for a joint 6th gen if they can both agree on design parameters, but the UK's defense needs and Japan's defense needs aren't exactly the same, so I have doubts about them being able to agree on a common design.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                Your figures demonstrate the need for a joint project, remember the projected costs never by a large margin get near the final costings.
                Japan will be well aware of the costs of their 5gen and the outcome.
                The UK is putting 6gen in the window to attract partners and as you say there is some movement there. But it is not enough by a very large margin. We have experience with joint endeavours and maybe less enthusiasm going down the same street with the same partners.
                With a 6gen I really am not sure that there will be much divergence in the requirements for either UK/Japan, but would be interested in what in your opinion they would be.
                No single nation will develop and market a real 6gen before the US, just not possible.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                >No single nation will develop and market a real 6gen before the US, just not possible.
                Sure it is, the US won't sell NGAD, Japan will sell their 6th gen.

                Easy. You made it to market first by default since the US won't be offering the NGAD at all to anyone. Just like the F-22.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                F/A-XX could be potentially exported.

              • 5 days ago
                Anonymous

                Navy NGAD is a catapult launched carrier based fighter, who are we selling it to? France? Or China?

              • 4 days ago
                Anonymous

                I don't think so, besides there being no real customers (no one else has carriers like ours except China) the US just isn't keen on selling the latest and greatest to anyone else, the only reason the F-35 is seeing international sales is it was created with international partners from the beginning with multiple versions allowing both land, carrier, and STOVL operations using a similar common design.

                This is the "low" portion of the US's "high-low" fighter strategy. The NGAD is the "high" portion, like the F-22 before it. The navy felt left out after a carrier based F-22 never happened, so they're designing their own 6th gen NGAD independently from the USAF NGAD 6th gen fighter. But both NGAD projects are of the same "high" tier that the F-22 is/was.

                Also another reason the F-35 did so well is no one else internationally developed a 5th gen fighter, so the F-35 being the only available 5th gen on the market for most countries makes it the default option.

                Maybe one day the US will develop an export 6th gen, but probably not if UK/Japan/EU manage to develop an export 6th gen in the meantime.

        • 5 days ago
          Anonymous

          Why does the US keep buying all of the UK's special projects and companies?

          • 5 days ago
            Anonymous

            Holy shit is that real?!?!?

            • 5 days ago
              Anonymous

              Yes

          • 5 days ago
            Anonymous

            Always has, always will. More money to spend.

  8. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    >what is the Harrier
    >what is fucking half of all weapons development in either country
    UK and US are basically the same country (again) at this point, which is pretty funny

  9. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    god bless america

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      >Turkey

      oh no no no no no

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      THEY'RE HERE!

  10. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    one of the things that is always a pain in the ass and has popped up over and over again is sensor fusion and establishing NATO standards after a platform has been fully developed and rolled out.

    so if i had to bet money is that the US wants to get ahead of the curb. somehow i don't think the US is going to be handing over all hardware willy-nilly to anyone else, even allies, of it's glowie tier skunk works tier shit. it will wait 30-40 years before it even considers sharing that level of technology.

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      Nah UK always gets first dibs, sometimes a few years later, but if they want it the UK usually gets it.

      One of the benefits of white privilege.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        It's entirely because the UK and US both speak majority English, have the same basic ethical framework, legal system and goals, both keep sending each other military suport regardless of ethics, and the US likes leasing all those tasty UK overseas bases.

        • 4 days ago
          Anonymous

          US and UK are literally the same, the UK is effectively a colony of the US, both at the core are Anglosphere nations and embrace multiculturalism, what language does the US speak? The global objectives of both nations are about as close as two countries can get

          frens 🙂

  11. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    So everyone's together?
    >Sweden, Italy, UK and Japan co-oping on Tempest
    >US joins in
    ???

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      No, at best you'll see NGAD tech get passed along, but nothing beyond that.

      • 5 days ago
        Anonymous

        no, i want to believe in the holy grail of western aviation; one plane to rule them all!

        • 5 days ago
          Anonymous

          I'd love to see it too anon, it just realistically won't happen.

          Seeing what happened with the F-22 though, I just don't think the US is going to offer NGAD as is to anyone, even to UK/Japan. But if they're already both doing a 6th gen development program, it's fairly easy to slip them some tech from the NGAD for them to integrate into their own 6th gen fighters.

  12. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    maybe, but after being locked out of the jsf source code i doubt it will go too far.

  13. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    US and UK are literally the same, the UK is effectively a colony of the US, both at the core are Anglosphere nations and embrace multiculturalism, what language does the US speak? The global objectives of both nations are about as close as two countries can get

  14. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    >Thomas Newdick is an aviation and defense writer and editor.
    >defense
    Prime little buddy cope right here.

  15. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    we have our own muslims, what do we need you guys for?

  16. 5 days ago
    Anonymous

    So what's it gonna be called? J-60?

    • 5 days ago
      Anonymous

      P60

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