They can't be out of "modern" tanks already, right? Posted on March 6, 2023 by PrepHole Contributor They can't be out of "modern" tanks already, right?
>UK intel says
>N-no... there is really 1500 T-14's.... they're just hiding with quantum displacement tesseract cubes... soon we will unleash them on the holhols and it'll be over... in two... weeks....
UK intel has been the only reliable source of information coming out the conflict you goon
>First to say Russia is up to no good again
>Only cunt besides US to say invasion was on
>Every released debrief has been slow, but verified and accurate
Bong MoD shit is routinely posted here for a reason, because no one trusts a bunch of (obviously) biased Slav monkeys, the retards who said Russia totally isn't invading, or the US because they don't really release anything intel based
Sidney Reilly's ghost
UK intel also said Russia was going to invade Ukraine in February 2022, heh.
Yeah, after the CIA posted it on twitter lel
Are you suggesting that the CIA staged the Russian invasion?
CIA leaked to Russians they "thought it would be easy" and Russians bough it hook, line and sinker
Russia needed intel from the CIA that Ukraine looked easy to take? What sort of retardation is that, the entire world thought Ukraine looked easy.
>the entire world thought Ukraine looked easy.
I still can't believe Putin is this easy to play, but if it works..
Hi, my name is Bradley Baker from the Wisconsin oblast, and I just want to say that morale is at an all-time low in the military. Kids these days just don't know how to respect authority and the politicians don't enforce any!
"They don't make 'em like they used to anymore"
Well either way, these Guard Tank Armies will definitely be getting new tanks (maybe even the fabled MIA T-14s) after the war/SMO when they reconstitute and rebuild these forces.
>Well either way, these Guard Tank Armies will definitely be getting new tanks (maybe even the fabled MIA T-14s) after the war/SMO when they reconstitute and rebuild these forces.
Ironically this war makes NATO's 2% requirement go BRRRR.
The west they're going to have to fight will be a whole different animal than the one they've known in early 2010s.
If the west somehow survives and rids itself of Russia's fifht column, which I don't see happening. There's a war going on, and yet you can see well-known FSB assets come and go as they please.
so russia's been reduced to trolls who influence fringe groups like boomers and incels
Also, these "fringe groups" still form sizeable voting blocks.
The aftermath of this is going to be hilarious. Dictators can't just say oops. They have to hang their generals or they get hanged themselves.
The post-war 1GTA will be reformed with tribals from Tatarstan and mounted on horseback like it's 1920 again.
They'll be reequipped with the state-of-the-art T-25 tank, aka a Toyota Hilux.
The T-14 is an absolute dog, costs around $4 million apiece, and the design has been plagued by so many problems that I wouldn't be surprised if the Kremlin eventually scraps the whole project in favor of something like the Burlak. Given the costs involved, they might even try to economize by working out the turbine problems in the T-80 stockpiles and then upgrading the result with just the Burlak turret.
I know you mean the T-90 variant, but with the way things are going I wouldn’t be surprised to see actual burlaks pulling Russian tanks by the end of the year.
>using old tanks LE BAD even doe they have more firepower and armor than the APCs and IFVs being used as light tanks
firepower is actually useless, electronics is all that matters
>Not having an new tanks is LE GOOD
What makes a tank potent is its electronics and targeting systems. Along with situational awareness. A tank is useless if its blind and unable to accurately hit its target. The iraqi army in 1991 learnes this the hard way
If I recall correctly, the Bradley scored more tank kills in 1991 than the Abrams, and the bulk of what they were facing were actually Chinese Type 69QM, which were based off of (a reverse-engineered) T-62 MBT and then upgraded. I'm curious to see if history repeats itself if there's a large scale Bradley-on-T-62 fracas.
Anybody know what the state of the art is for whatever modernization on the Leopard 1s that are being sent to the AFU?
doesn't really help when you have shit optics like video related:
(zero infantry support doesn't help here either)
>shit fire control, electronics, and imaging to actually see and shot accurately
Truly, russian doctrine has been kept pure an touched since WWII.
russian genstab keeps on trying to refight and deriving the lessons from ww2.
Those have been rusting for over 60 years. Do you think that the gun is really going to be worth anything? It will probably have an error range in miles.
Plus, it lacks a lot of important capabilities.
If you merely wanted cheap firepower then towed guns are better
Lol yeah it doesnt make sense
Russians using T-62s and T-72As? LOLS OBSOLETE
Ukrainians using Leopard 1s and T-72As? BASED COMBINED WARFARE INITIATE
I mean at the end of the day, a T-62 is literally a MOBILE, PROTECTED, FIREPOWER system.
It has ARMOR, it has MOBILITY, it FIREPOWER.
I don't think Ukrainians care what tank they are fighting if a 115mm HE is coming at you?
Honestly M4 shermans are still viable technically speaking (I love him so much)
>Russians using T-62s and T-72As? LOLS OBSOLETE
>Ukrainians using Leopard 1s and T-72As? BASED COMBINED WARFARE INITIATE
russia shouldn't be fighting with the same equipment as ukraine but with more modern equipment. If 2 opponents fight with the same quality of equipment you get ww1 since neither can take the lead
>I mean at the end of the day, a T-62 is literally a MOBILE, PROTECTED, FIREPOWER system.
>It has ARMOR, it has MOBILITY, it FIREPOWER.
it has no armor against any modern/vietnam war at weapon, it's reliability is questionable since the sat in a shed for years, it has a cannon but has inferior electronics.
>I don't think Ukrainians care what tank they are fighting if a 115mm HE is coming at you?
the problem for tanks is find and identify the targets, and without modern thermals and warning systems you are just a target for infantry atgms
>Honestly M4 shermans are still viable technically speaking (I love him so much)
Of course you think that
Leo 1 would fucking dunk on turret tossers, it has gen 1 thermals (gen 35 by zigger standards), Leo 2A4 FCS (alien tech by zigger standards because it can both laze AND track targets) and a stabiliser (it actually keeps the gun steady instead of just making the drunk gunner less sick)
UK MoD wants us to believe that Russia is advancing with shovels and 1960s tanks, yet the shovels are so powerful and effective Ukraine needs Challenger 2s to cope?
Sorry but no, Leopard 1, no matter how hard you cope, is not on par or better with a T-72B3M or T-80BVM, especially T-90M
Yes I know you want to own the ziggers and call their tanks trash, which they mostly are, but a Leopard 1 is worse off than the most modern Russian tanks. Does that mean the Leopard 1 is useless? No. But the leo 1 has no armor. 2A4 FCS is good but outdated, even the 2A46M-5 is more advanced.
Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams? Then yeah there is no arguing, Leo 2 and M1 comes out on top every time.
Most, if not all, russian FCS all lack target leading, they rely on a computer spewing a magic number, a silkscreened lead table and the gunner to put the reticle ahead or behind based on these. For comparison, M60 TTS had completely automated target leading where the computer does absolutely everything and it only requires the gunner to keep the pipper on target while lazing. On top of these, Leo 1 has electric stabilisers instead of hydraulic ones which can keep the gun stable at higher speeds and with better granularity. Leo 1 can fire modern 105 darts, which can go through up to T-72B3 with functional ERA (for example, M900A1 issued during Desert Storm can go through ~570mm RHAeq at 2000m). This means it has the first shot advantage and is capable of penetrating most (if not all since the most advanced armor already tossed their turrets) threats it would face. Armor is absolute trash, granted, but it also has vastly better maneouverability and a usable reverse gear. You are vastly underestimating the technological gap between BLUFOR and REDFOR.
As an easy 8 fetishist I can safely say you are retarded if you think Shermans and other tanks from the era AREN'T just death traps on the modern battlefield. Their armor is absolute shit vs even the cheapest of semi-modern AT, and target acquisition/zeroing is incredibly hard to do against an enemy with any mobility. As another anon said, towed guns are much more effective for the niches it CAN fulfill on today's battlefield.
tl;dr real life is not world of tanks you fucking gay.
>Ukraine fielding better equipment than it started out with
>Russia fielding worse equipment than it started out with
That is the difference.
>Ukraine fielding better equipment than it started out with
>Russia fielding worse equipment than it started out with
This. Especially since part of the Russia stronk narrative was they were supposed to have thousands of at least late cold war standard T-72 and T-80 tanks in reserves. If most of those don't work then rolling out the T-62 is technically the correct decision, but it's worth calling out they were bullshitting how strong their reserves were.
As for the Leopard 1? It's armor is crap, the firepower isn't fantastic and it's thermals and FCS probably isn't anything to write home about compared to the top of the line tanks in this conflict. But the caveat on that last point is that both sides in the war are using Cold War Era tanks that don't have any passive thermal sights. This fellow below me is probably not going to be happy about fighting a Leopard 1 at nighttime.
>But the caveat on that last point is that both sides in the war are using Cold War Era tanks that don't have any passive thermal sights.
Thats the dumbest shit written in this thread. There are plenty of videos of both ukies and russians watching passive thermal sight screens from the inside of their vehicles.
Better equipment that doesn't seem to have arrived yet. Can Ukraine look forward to it in the future, perhaps even the near future? Probably, but according to the latest video from RFU, linked below, Ukraine was employing (presumably captured) T-62s in defense of Vuhledar over the past month or so.
>It's another vatnik retard thinking the only thing that matters on tanks is armor and the gun episode
These reruns are really getting old
Are these vatniks in the room with us right now?
Lol but this logic doesn't apply to the anon who replied to me and said Leopard 1 has a better FCS?
bro, because I said something you disagree with does not make me a vatmoron.
I know thats what you want, because it makes you easier to dismiss an opinion.
Like I said, Leo 1 is just not on par with T-72B3M, T-80BVM and T-90M. Is it still formidable? Yeah no shit.
Why are we focusing on Leopard 1 anyway, the real deal is M1 Abrams.
*gets blown up from 2km away without even knowing what shot it*
>It shoot but doesn't run
>It runs but it doesn't shoot
>Has no brakes but it still work.
>Doesn't turn at all
Many such cases
I imagine Russia is going to fight with the force of a Empire not as a Orc Warband from the 40K stories
~~* UK Intel *~~
They're wheeling out old, 1970s vintage T-80Bs now
No ERA, no nothing
Damn that pic looks badass
It says "bald guy from Brazzers"
Russia really is magical.
He's a big maymay in Bolan as well.
Are they advertising porn on their tank?
Just the bald guy
It's part of a deal to get a job for the commander's sister.
I fucking hate the naming convention for all Soviet and post Soviet tanks
>Lmao obsolete piece of shit from 70s
>T-80 something else
>Produced from 2018, one of the most modern tanks in Russian army
And the best part is that all of these look like slight variations of t-72. Fuck me, is there some NATO naming convention that actually makes sense?
Americans are even worse.
Everything is an m1
at least westerners use an easy to pronounce, easy to remember and cool sounding name to go along with it.
just leaving it at numbers and letters is gay as fuck
Hey, how'd you do with the M1?
Not so great, I was using M1 in my M1.
Awwh, yeah, M1 makes being good with the M1 hard. Well, you can always ride back in the M1.
Nah, I've gotta hit the ol' M1. Might relax and use an M1 to get into my M1 while I relax on my M1.
Were you wearing an M1, too?
Even when they aren’t calling it an M1 they still insist on using the same names for things. There are at least four pieces of materiel called the M60, and you know what the best part is? NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR ADOPTED IN 1960. I am willing to bet actual money that some overworked logi was ordered to requisition some new tanks and ended up with a bunch of bridge layers by mistake.
>I am willing to bet actual money that some overworked logi was ordered to requisition some new tanks and ended up with a bunch of bridge layers by mistake.
Ok so that would suck but think of the infantry company commander that did the same for machine guns and ended up with four tanks
Well, it’d sure take Charlie by surprise. I certainly wouldn’t want to be in one of their tunnels with a tank rolling across the top.
>I am willing to bet actual money that some overworked logi was ordered to requisition some new tanks and ended up with a bunch of bridge layers by mistake
I'd believe it. There was a story about a supply clerk who was trying to order new office furniture but fucked up an NSN and almost ended up with an anchor for a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier
To be fair we replaced the model date system with the M1s the model 60 machine gun just means we had 60 other machine guns.
Should the T-84 be renamed? It's a Ukrainian tank.
T-84 BUK BREAKER
i'd say t-84 is not as retarded with modification naming
>Fuck me, is there some NATO naming convention that actually makes sense?
>GUNNER! SABOT! TANK! TRAVERSE LEFT
>ON THE WAY!
Pretty much covers every Soviet tank.
and in real life
>LOAD SABOT, THERE'S A TANK GUNNER KILL THAT MOTHERFUCKER
>And the best part is that all of these look like slight variations of t-72.
Yeah... What a coincidence right
Russian tank naming is easy. you only need to know the t54, 64, and 72. Everything else is just a variant of these, and the variants with big enough differences to make a difference are extinct in Russia
>advertising porn on their tanks
Based and tradpilled Russia.
>el pelon del Brazzers
No ERA? So every single MPATS used on the battlefield these days will blow it up in single shot?
Did they write Brazzers on it because it will be penetrated until it blows it's own turret off?
This "news" is ancient, they’ve run out of modern tanks months ago.
Also, T-72B3s aren’t modern to begin with. Russia never actually had a modern tank force to begin with. Not for the last 15-20 years anyway. Putin’s regime only cares about selling gas and pretending to be royalty with the money, everything else simply can go to hell.
They never had modern tanks to begin with lmao
Didn't the US lend lease them modern tanks during WW2?
"mom, can we have T-80?"
"-we have a T-80 at home"
T80 at home:
Tanks, spare parts, fuel, and ammo all cost money. Someone's palace could have a dozen more rooms with the savings of rolling out the old tanks from storage. The good news is that there are so few tank on tank battles, that units get to sort through the old ammunition, and pick out all the corroded stuff to put to the side.
real talk what do you even do with these castles and golden floating dachas? How often do the boyars owning them even actually use them. Or do they for the most of the time just sit in cyprus docks/estates being maintained by the staff/crew while maybe a year or two seeing a couple of days of use?
when the trophy wife stops putting out its off to the mega yacht on a "buisiness trip" with hookers and cocaine.
Corruption is a sickness that doesn't make sense. In Africa, they sack away billions in Swiss bank accounts that they can't, and will never use. After one palace and armored Mercedes, why accumulate more that you can't use?
My roommate is a hoarder, have spent the last couple of days clearing out the shit from his room and now dealing with the damp and mold discovered all along the wall.
Hey if you're not stealing that money then someone else will. And if they get that money they could potentially use it to threaten you. Also if you don't steal then you'll look suHispanicious to everyone else who are stealing and it's much more likely they'll start hiding things from you.
>what do you even do with these castles and golden floating dachas?
Two chicks at the same time.
>real talk what do you even do with these castles and golden floating dachas?
It's just another way to stash money. Even if they get chased out of Russia by Putin or sanctioned by the West, they'll still have a boat worth half a billion to sell/live on.
unless said boat gets expropriated by the country it's stationed at
boat belongs to a company owned by a company owned by an overseas company that allows for anonymous directors, so nobody knows who owns the boat without doing a lot of digging.
>If you take fucking UK BBC intel at face value then you're even bigger redditard than we could of ever imagined
Yeah, remember when the UK intel said that Russia would invade in February 2022? Heh, what losers! Or when they said Russia would have to abandon the Kiev front, that was memoryholed fast lol! Or remember when they said that the entire Russian Karkiv front would have to pull out?
I just leave this here.
so are the Russians actually out of operational T-72s, T-80s and T-90s or are they keeping thousand of them in reserve?
they are just avoiding merging fucked up units together
they ran out of the best stuff in the last year. First T-62 sightings started popping up around the end of summer. Now there are first sightings of africa tier technicals of 40s naval AA cannons mounted on early 50s tracked carriers
This would be so pathetic if it were not so funny
But if this is true isn't Russia on the verge of a complete collapse? I'm not being hyperbolic here. A country like Russia with the power structure as it is needs an army to keep civil unrest under wraps. Surely the smallest insurrection can have major repurcussions if you don't have the hardware to combat it. They have a sizeable air force of course so there's that.
ISW in their latest update, suggested the Wagner may be intentionally left hanging in northern Bakhmut as a power play. A move on Putin's part to prevent a potential rival of gaining too much prestige in the eyes of everyday Russians, and remaining too much of a potential threat to his power by only expending disposable prisoners while their core, relatively competent members remained mostly intact.
Wagner provides immense resource wealth from escapades in Africa. They’re an important part of Russian influence and income. Putin is sitting in his throne while the members of his royal court backstab and one up each other for favor, influence, and power.
But outside of rumors and petty social media posts, it’s hard for the public to tell what’s really going on until the walls and roof cave in to show us what’s really going on.
And those members will be there even if one of putins petty sycophants murders his way into heading wagner
>Wagner may be intentionally left hanging in northern Bakhmut as a power play.
Russians deserve each other
>A country like Russia with the power structure as it is needs an army to keep civil unrest under wraps. Surely the smallest insurrection can have major repurcussions if you don't have the hardware to combat it.
Monke has like 5 russian glownig agencies (only the ones that we hypothetically know of) working to protect him from a threat as little as a passing cough in his general direction from 5 miles across. When it comes to autocracy, Russia makes N.Korea and China look like absolute cuckold chumps in comparison. They won't collapse. The citizenry will just "voluntarily" sell their kidneys and livers and God knows what else to "keep the peace from nazis".
If you thought this shit was tiresome, you have no idea how tiresome it's gonna get.
dunno about that. China has a industrial scale organ harvesting operation going on using the political prisoners as cattle and military hospitals as the organ extraction factories. NK sells everything from industrial fentanyl to arms to anything you can think of gangsters like cartels usually are up to.
Putin has the Rosgvardia and much nooks to protect his interests, and if all your young men have fled or been meat grinder in Ukraine who will fight them? Russia is fucked on its ability to project power because of this, but unless one of his bodies makes a power play putinwill stay in power because it's more annoying to take and hold territory against actually motivated Russians than just sending Ukraine some supplies and enjoying a weak neighbor.
>But if this is true isn't Russia on the verge of a complete collapse?
That's a difficult question to answer with a simple yes/no.
On the one hand, main battle tanks are more of a tool for actual warfare than for riot suppression. For civil unrest, Putin has a lot of Rosgvardia units with the sort of paddywagons, riot gear, small arms, etc. that are better suited to keeping the ol' jackboot on the throat of civilians. So far, no large-scale rioting has erupted, and Putin has been very consistent in clamping down on any perceived popular threat.
On the other hand, autocrats frequently appear to have an iron grip on the reins of power right up to the moment that they don't, and then the downfall is surreally quick. As an example, Gaddafi held onto power for decades, and at any point up until the last few months he seemed impregnable. The reason is that most people are thinking "I certainly don't want to be the FIRST one to rebel..." until some tipping point changes their view to "...but I DEFINITELY don't want to be the last."
(As far as a collapse of the RuAF's external power projection? The "modernization" of the T-62 appears to include slightly better opticals, but no ERA. I'd say it speaks of at least some desperation on their part.)
All oppressive regimes are one crisis away from collapse because the “social contract” with its citizens is based on nothing more than pride. Russian citizens will suffer starvation conditions so long as they think their suffering provides them some sort of standing in the world. As soon as Putin is seriously embarrassed, there will be problems. And this is only in relation to a single demographic: the poor. There can also be coups from his yes-men for material gain, or the middle class for infringement on their property, etc. In short, when your regime is based on brute force, your stability and authority are so little thin ice over a bottomless lake.
Probably out of "ready" units but still have some in deep storage waiting to be refurbed... or cannibalized to make working tanks.
given that there were reports that of the quality of man of the t-72s if there are thousands in "reserve" they must being in dire straights.
I used to work for a place that was six figures in debt and hemorrhaging money, to the point where we weren't always getting paid on time so we could pay the electric bill. Buying new equipment, even stuff that cot $30-40, was out of the question. When something would break, it would go into a pile of similar equipment. Every few weeks, I'd go through the piles and see if I had enough parts to scrounge together one working unit from the parts of several. These mismatched but functional units would be returned to service, until they inevitably broke again.
I'd imagine this is roughly the situation Russia has with their tanks right now.
Hundreds of thousands of RPG-7s in Ukraine suddenly have become more useful.
Every day brings us closer to this glorious inevitability
>The chopper stopped briefly. Alekseyev saw burning vehicles and running men. The tanks were old T-55s … this was the counterattack he'd been told about! Smashed.
T-14 won't be used at all. It has engine problems and sight problems (which cant be replaced since they're western-bought)
Without access to western technology, this will be difficult. In Sosna-U, for example, French thermal sights were used and so on.
I remember when we lost so many M1s and M60s against Iraq we had to pull out the M48s out of storage.
Remember when lost so many M113s we replaced them with M75s and Blackwater started recruiting gang bangers from prison to push Fallujah?
>and Blackwater started recruiting gang bangers from prison to push Fallujah?
Damn son, imagine if Blackwater had pressed MS13 into service doing CQB in the 'Luj. Would have been fucking hilarious
>spray n pray by both sides
>all targets missed, only civilians and property were destroyed
>MS13 packs up and leaves on their up armored Cadillac Escalades and Chrysler 300s back to their Section 8 housing at Camp Victory
>IED goes off on under one of the vehicles
>one of the rear Chryslers is seen doing a backflip, with its spinning rims and under glow shown for the world to see
>all the gang bangers survived thanks to the chassis already being 6 feet off the ground due the hydraulics being activated
>real G’s finally make it back to base and proceeded to rob the PX of its money and smokes
>then our heroic bangers end the day by walking around Baghdad trying to buy haha from the locals not realizing that the Green Zone wasn’t some district with lax drug polices
Armenian power gang homie!
One of those guys was killed and another went back to Armenia IIRC.
>>all the gang bangers survived thanks to the chassis already being 6 feet off the ground due the hydraulics being activated
>Recruiting gangbangers from prison
Half the guys I went to boot with in '07 were recruited out of county jails and homeless shelters, no joke. Guy in the bunk above me layered his uniforms and slept in everything he could possibly wear at one time, so "nobody will steal muh threads".
I've posted this a few times now but I'll give it a another round since people are still asking. Info updated for march in pic related.
I'm using information from IISS and Russian sources and then checking it against the visually confirmed losses.
There's caveats to be aware of
>damaged tanks assumed not recovered
>unidentified tanks are not counted
>the list does not account for refurbishments or new production (roughly 200-250/year no idea what it is currently)
>one off or very small numbers of obscure variants not counted
So what does it tell us? As far as relatively modern tanks are concepted (newish T-72 variants and up) theoretically at maximum the Russians could have around 1700 left. In reality since not all losses are documented visually, damaged tanks are recovered, and production/refurbishment replenishes losses its fairly impossible to know how many are left without direct access to Russian intel. 1700 should be a very rough estimate of the approximate maximum. Going with that estimate the breakdown is as follows:
T-80 variants: 61
>actually inventory is likely much higher due to refurbs but shows how badly losses were for certain units
T-90 variants: 374
>So what's with all the T-55/62/64s being rushed to the front and reports of tank shortages?
The Russians are risk adverse to systems/equipment much more than manpower. They could be attempting to hold back these relatively modern MBTs to preserve the remaining force, instead sending older models forward (much like untrained conscripts)
>1700 seems like alot
Lets assume there is actually 1700 left and ignore losses not visually confirmed or other bullshit that happens in war. Confirmed losses of all types sit at 1810 in one year of fighting, they absolutely would still be very worried about running out of their good MBTs.
>can't they just build more?
Maybe, currently if we assume the 200/250 tanks a year estimate is correct then they would need to increase production 6-8 times. Is that possible? Sure, you can refurbish a basic tank, but if you want competitive thermals, ERA, and all the other bells and whistles of a modern MBT suddenly a surge of that magnitude seems a lot less likely given the restricted access to components/lack of industry to produce said components, though it's still possible given the desire/time and/or aid from China.
you need to plus 30% for T-72 models, as Oryx does not capture everything. +30% was the benchmark when they leaked Russian loss documents.
Yeah there's unidentified losses and shit that is never seen or confirmed. If the high ball estimate is 1700 then in reality the number may be closer to 1000-1200 depending on how you want to estimate what isn't visually confirmed. Adding in what's unidentified and operating under the assumption unknown T-72 variants were in fact newer B3s then it drops to 800-900 plus refurbs
T-80 yet AGAIN proven to be Kirov junk. Always supposedly rated higher than the T-72 and yet in every combat operation gets completely massacred.
The only thing that seems fishy is the T-90 numbers. If they had 300+ sitting somewhere we would deffinitely see more of them on the battlefield.
My bet would be they never existed and Russia has 100 of them at max.
Yeah numbers estimates are always fucky. The Russian source claimed 186 T-90A, with no T-90Ms listed at all. IISS has the 417 of all types and other sources claimed 600 total but unknown numbers in storage. If I had to guess I'd say there were no more than 100-150 T-90Ms prior to the invasion so if the Russian source is more accurate its more like 286-336 which shifts the loss rate to 16-18%.
>100-150 T-90Ms prior to the invasion
Are you counting those which were still on the assembly line at UVZ? Because even now the only unit that has been documented operating them is the Tamanskaya Division's 1st Guards Tank Regiment. Considering that they received their first production batch of 8 as of March 2021, I highly doubt that they had the time to outfit the entire regiment of 90+ tanks in the span of 11 months, especially considering that same regiment was documented as having lost T-90As and T-72B3Ms around Chernihiv last year.
Definitely was guessing lmao, IISS listed 67 T-90Ms in service for 2021 so I figured it wasn't terribly impossible but I could very well be overestimating their capability. I'd be really interested in what numbers/models of tanks Russia is actually upgrading per year so I could make better estimates, I know the ballpark prewar was 200/250 but I hadn't been able to find much reliable info on what tanks were actually being upgraded that had credible sources.
I'd be dubious about making any hard predictions on the exact number of T-90s Russia produced. If even Wagner was operating them, even in extremely limited numbers, that may suggest the number produced may be higher than you might initially believe.
we have determined that they are not "out" out but rather only at the state of it being expedient to use t-62s because they could be refurbished more quickly
which is to say yes basically they have had shortages of refurbished, operational more modern tanks
What is the economic implication of using modern weapons to destroy obsolete tanks?
Wars after all are won largely by logistics.
Those obsolete tanks could be sold to African shitholes for large sums of money that could be spent on something useful, or gold toilet plating for someone's yatch, so given the differences in the size of the economy of the nations supporting Ukraine vs Russia, the latter is still coming out far behind.
Less obsolete tanks to deal with. Soviets already paid for the tanks and it’s cheaper and easier to send them to the front since Russia doesn’t have the capacity or been capability in some cases to produce new tanks or retrofit old ones with modern components and upgrades.
Sooner or later they’re going to run out of old armor and will have to result with using even older armor or find a new way to make way without risking their remaining important equipment held away from combat duty. If Russia uses all their modern T-72s, T-80s, and T-90s, then after the war then they wouldn’t have enough modern tanks to stand up against even individual counties like Poland or even Finland. They’re already pulling out old BTR-50s due to high loss rates of MTLBs and other tracked vehicles.
Lots of the weapons given to Ukraine have already been paid for due to being preexisting Cold War stock or old weapons that need to be used up before their expiration date. In the grand scheme of things, ATGMs, landlines, and precision artillery are far cheaper than tanks. So western nations wouldn’t hurt their wallets much by flossing Ukraine with them. Old leopards, Challngers, and those French wheeled things are being sent to Ukraine as they’re either already phased out or are in the process. The US is sending old M2A2s to Ukraine.
The war isn’t is economically devastating to the west/EU/NATO as it is to Russia and of course Ukraine. But after the at there will be a lot of funds, particularly from the EU to rebuild and invest in Ukraine while Russia is left with sanctions, hundreds of thousands more leaving the country, and no length of uncertainty.
Now that I think about it, I think the idea of Russia being a military superpower has been US propaganda all along. It's just a lie so the MIC can suck in more money for R&D and shit
Thankfully China has been so kind as to step up to the plate as the new boogiemen we'll be telling Congress about to justify the R&D on the Uberwaffen 9001
When they get to T-54's and T-34's, you know that they are almost out of tanks.
Funny fact, they actually had to buy T-34s from some SEA shithole to have the last victory parade because they had none running left and the factory that would have refurbished some was busy trying to fix up modern tanks for the War.
They were bought from Laos in 2019 and I think Vietnam at some point as well.
What’s even funnier is how they paid for the T-34s.
>While it is unclear if Russia paid for the tanks or exchanged them, at the end of December a number of modernized Russian T-72 tanks were spotted en route to Laos.
>“Despite overall similar appearance with the military machines that took part in the Battle of Berlin in 1945, there is little history about the new arrivals,” said Mr. Khlopotov. “These tanks, according to a number of external features, were produced somewhere between 1952 and 1956 at factories in Czechoslovakia.” One clue, he said, was that the shape of their turrets were “too perfect” to have been made at a Soviet factory during the war.
Russia literally traded modernized T-72s for old post-war T-34 tanks that weren’t even of Russian origin. In fact, they traded 20 upgraded T-72B1 for 30 post-war Czech T-34s that will be used for parades and movies.
Good job Russia. Amazing foresight.
Imagine if the US traded upgraded M60A3s for Canadian built Shermans and then went to war with medico and recoded record breaking loss rates to a point where M48s have to be pulled from storage.
I would argue it's more like M1A1s with your upgrade package of choice compared to an M60 variant as to how relevant it is to the US mil vs Russian, but that honestly just makes it even funnier.
>Russian rulers would edit the past in the hope of building the future they wanted, typically by scavenging the cultural or political myths and symbols they needed.
That shit sounds like a type of scheme. I'm willing to bet money the T-34s were just a cover for a different type of payment.
is this the t62 that has like 90 degrees at best of principle frontal observation once you've got the crew buttoned up?
Are there more mothballed T-62 then T-72 or are there any other reason they field old T-62s instead of old T-72s?
T-72 is more widely used than T-62 and costs more. Very smart Russians in military would sell spare parts(what working parts they could salvage from T-72 in storage) and sell it to other countries. Do it for 30 years and you will understand why they are pulling out T-62
They had a bunch of T-62s properly stored for military exercise in the Far East. Russians probably have more T-72s and even some T-90 to pull from the storage, but their condition is probably pretty bad and demands lengthy refurbishment. So what other alternative they have but to sent T-60s to keep their "mighty" tank army operational.
Google translate this: https://mil.in.ua/uk/blogs/analiz-zapasiv-tankiv-rf-na-bazah-zberigannya-za-uralom/#:~:text=%D0%97%D0%B0%20%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%20The%20Military%20Balance,%2C%20200%20%D1%82%2D90).
TLDR: in August 2022 Russians had in storage 2075 tanks more or less operational (886 T62s among them in pretty good condition), 1304 tanks that need refurbishment, 2299 tanks that should be recycled. Plus 1330 tank spots in hangars, it is impossible to find out what's there.
>not because they're commies but because of the rust
People meme about this but here is the tank graveyard in Kharkiv in 2014
and the same area in 2021
A lot of the tanks can be repaired
The tanks no longer being in the lot don't necessarily mean that they were repaired. Many are cannibalized for parts.
UK MoD wants us to believe that Russia is advancing with shovels and 1960s tanks, yet the shovels are so powerful and effective Ukraine needs Challenger 2s to cope?
No, they need tanks to shred ziggers into mince meat. Because ziggers are practically fucking insane after huffing 30+ years of propaganda, they'll just keep coming in waves until they take their objective or get absolutely obliterated. And they don't care how poorly they're equipped. Shovels or sticks or broken vodka bottles. They'll always keep coming
Glad to see Europe finally pull it's head out of it's ass and realize that there can absolutely never be negotiations with Russia. Only a devastating military victory is something they'll listen to. For a decade at least.
>Sergey, we got incoming infantry, keep them away from the Haruhi souvenir shop!
Those shovels are made from vintage Stalinium. Nothing can break them.
>Go into Ukr with your best armor
>Armor units get mauled when traveling through urban areas because not enough infantry support due to not mobilizing
>can't avoid major roads and urban areas because lol weather
>Finally mobilize and have the manpower you need
>Best armor has been mauled and now all that infantry can't be supported properly
>What armor you do have is increasingly out of date or suffering from mechanical issues due being poorly managed during mothball/storage
They really did fuck up the first two weeks.
You love to see it
It makes sense to use T-62's instead of T-80's, T-90's, etc.. in a vatmoron sort of way:
1. Everything you have built in your entire military history going back 70 years is now, effectively, a glass cannon to western weapons
2. Mobiks are Russians and therefore just worthless slave meat anyway. Their lives are meaningless so maybe in death they will have meaning
3. Almost all your tanks use the same ammo and your ammo shortage means more tanks of the same type just erodes your stockpiles quicker
When you think about it, it is clever. You use the cheapest tank because they all die from one hit anyway. The downside, crew deaths, is pointless because you can't properly train a mobik anyway. Further, it also uses a different ammo type so it allows you to access different stockpiles. Why would you use a T-90? It is more expensive, it requires actual maintenance, it needs a properly trained crew, and so on. Plus it will just get abandoned anyway.
T-62 is good. T-62 is reliable. If it jams, you can always run over someone with it. - Boris the Bullet Dodger.
>Why would you use a T-90?
good theory expect t-90 series have already been used in there, including confirmed kills and one captured by ukranians which their main commander personally tried out on a test drive
>shills have nothing wrong with using T-62s
>"russia just saving up its T-90 and Apmatas for invasion of poland
There were no modern tanks drook, was all Kremlin lie for HATO.
And this blog has pics from 2012 of the state of the vehicles
Tank for Sale
Ran when Parked
No low balls!
I know what I got.
There is a tank plant in Kharkiv too, so any reactivating, refurbishing, modernizing, and cannibalizing could be done with ease.
With ease, you say?
With what remaining expertise, materials, optics, or electronics?
I said it could be done with ease, as the mothballed tanks were located nearby and presumably stored in better conditions than some isolated depot in a place such as Siberia.
The plant now devoted whatever operations it has now to the war effort, according to it but I presume that due to Kharkiv’s proximity to the front and Russia might be an issue.
Speaking of keeping tanks outside for accelerated rusting, how bad is it if the gun tubes are open and water is allowed to rust the insides?
imagine peeing backwards but with explosive residue
Not a tank autist, but from my admittedly very limited understanding, aren't tank barrels always smooth bore? Presumably that would mean you at least don't have to worry about rifling degrade and negatively effect accuracy, however I can't imagine a rusted out barrel will have nearly the same barrel life as one that has been well protected from the elements.
Challenger 2s have rifled 120 mm so they can efficiently fire spin stabilized flechette/sabot rounds (most notably APFSDS), this is a cumbersome but relatively low-cost way to generate a lot of penetrating power with very high accuracy
HESH more recently has also come back as 120mm rifled rounds
however, Indians use rifled barrels too, so I think you can guess how efficient this option is if you have the money to fire good smoothbore instead (lol)
Challenger II kept the rifled barrel precisely because the UK was banking on HESH retaining its efficacy against modern armor for much longer than it did. With a rifled bore, more rotational energy gets put into the squash-head projectile, which means its more likely to flatten itself out and cover a larger surface area when it finally hits a target, thus increasing the potential for spalling on the inside of the tank when it detonates. The rifling actually has a negative impact on APFSDS projectiles, because the more spin that the solid dart has, the less efficient it will be at imparting all of its kinetic energy directly straight through a piece of armor. Most tanks use smoothbore guns because most countries caught on to APFSDS and GLATGMs being the future of tank projectiles as opposed to HESH/HEAT.
They can't even make their barrels straight and centered to begin with, why does it matter if it's rusty? The shell will land where it lands, we can always fire another.
Russian tanks are damn near useless except as rolling armor. Their optics are like 1950s photographs of distant celestial bodies. They require more resources than Russia can rationally provide, plus the generous 30% tip from corruption.
As horrendous as the human wave tactics are, I’ve read several interviews with Ukrainians on the ground saying they’re the scariest thing Russia has because they’re completely unpredictable and difficult to contain.
>Their optics are like 1950s photographs of distant celestial bodies
Kek, now that’s what I call a stellar description of Russia.
The national version of 'retard strength'. Holy fuck.
Not sure the comparison is useful. Has there been much tank on tank combat? I've only seen tanks obliterating APCs or tanks being destroyed by missiles, mines or artillery. It looks like tanks are being used on patrols and to draw fire away from troop transports in convoys.
Ukraine seems to be holding its tank forces in reserve so you don't see them around too often. Russia has consistently still been throwing them at Ukrainian lines in half assed attacked and losing dozens of them at a time.
Russian could have a billion tanks in reserve and it would mean little. They lost a huge amount of their experienced crews around Kyiv and then Kherson. it take months of work with veteran instructors to produce even mediocre crews and given that we know Russia is bringing missile operators to the front lines, I doubt they have many good instructors left.
I'm posting an updated version of the original list, I rechecked the IISS estimates and the russian sources and saw there were apparently way more B3M's in service.
I can't remember where exactly I grabbed the picture, it was some vatnik website I had to translate, I'm including it for the fuck of it. Apparently this was a picture taken from official Russian military documents (kek). A little sketch so I really only used the 72BA inventory number. Judging from the very low numbers of BVM's and B3/B3M if there's any authenticity to it it's very likely prior to 2020 if not even older.
hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaa to even post this bullshit is so fucking ridiculous
You really have som highly classified CIA shit going on anon, hats off to you!
the relative absence of T-90s from destroyed equipment would be much more ominous if they weren't also absent from the frontlines
the T-90 is such a clusterfuck, I wonder if those remaining ~400 in "service" are even functional? bravo to India for buying so many
Definitely been a bit of a no show. T-80s got an absolute buttfucking early in the war that the similarly sized T-90 fleet managed to avoid. They do have T-90s in Ukraine, the majority of their deployed T-90s I believe are around the Svatove-Kremmina area reinforcing the area, I don't know the composition of what's there like if it's mainly T-90M or S etc.
There could be a few reasons why they're underused. For one maybe they actually don't have 400 and it's closer to the Russian source at 186. For two upgrading a T-72B/BA to a B3 variant could be cheaper, T-90A to T-90M involves an entire turret swap + other components, obviously a B3 is superior to T-90A and has more units available for refit at potentially lower cost.
Then finally, like earlier in the thread the Russians are loss adverse to systems/equipment rather than their soldiers. Losing a T-90M is a huge morale hit and boon to enemy propaganda, and every T-90A saved from being blasted to the moon is a T-90M you could upgrade later (hopefully).
They've concentrated it in what is now a relatively less intense area of the front, but an area that still needs credible offensive/defensive capability because if those lines are breached and ukies keep moving eastward unchecked it starts to really threaten Lysychansk and several donuts from the north where the terrain is flatter and harder to defend.
If Ukraine decides to conduct its counter offensive in the Svatove-Kremmina area with the myriad of western shit they're getting you'll see T-90 losses spike without a doubt.
Lol these remaining inventory lists are always bullshit
I remember March 22 people saying Russia was on track to run out of tanks and ARTILLERY shells by June.
Sir, are you not aware they got Shells from NK and Iran since then?
my estimate is definitely not at all a concrete number, its only a theoretical ceiling of modern shit they have left. In fact my remaining inventory estimate makes them look much much better than what the reality likely is, remember that these numbers do not include losses not visually confirmed but also don't include refurbs/recovered vehicles either.
Journalists are stupid when they say x will run out of y by next week, what's far more important is the hard details. Like with the ammo shortages, is it ALL ammo? or just certain types. If I was a Russian SPH crew and I had plenty of regular 152mm shells but very few rocket assisted rounds I would feel very suicidal trying to counter battery western SPHs that may outrange me with their own RAPs despite on paper having enough total rounds to do the job.
>If I was a Russian SPH crew and I had plenty of regular 152mm shells but very few rocket assisted rounds I would feel very suicidal trying to counter battery western SPHs that may outrange me with their own RAPs despite on paper having enough total rounds to do the job.
You dont counterbattery shit with RAP rounds since their spread in depth is huge. They are a meme unless paired with expensive guidance. Try to talk about something else you dont know.
at some point you fags need to understand that russia's problem is not the equipement, it's their fucking incompetence in using it... they don't have the training nor the support (intel and commandment) they need to win.
You can send them 200 F-35 and 1000 Leo2 and those retards would not now what to do with it.
it can be the case that Russian equipment is shit and Russians are shit all at the same time, friend
Well friend, Ukraine has(had) mostly the same shit so.. back to square 1.
And as far as I'm concerned, the debacle is mostly due to the absolute joke that is the russian air force (and intel dep).
I have no idea what is wrong with Russian airmen, I guess the goal was to troll out the clock while Ukraine only had S-300s
now Ukraine has a shitload of modern (not Russian) anti-air systems, and not even a Russian commissar would be dumb enough to send in the jets
>I have no idea what is wrong with Russian airmen
pretty sure I've read somewhere that they don't have that many pilots and that they really don't train a lot expect for basic patrol missions and shit.
According to RUSI the Russian Air Force only has 100 combat pilots for planes at any one time.
> the Russian Air Force only has 100 combat pilots for planes at any one time.
ah ok.. well yeah with 50 pilots capable of flying jets it's not going to be easy.
and how many died already?
>at any one time
Was the figure before or after the war began? Even with the preventative measures like a highly limited number of sorties, flying low to avoid detection and enemy AA, and attempting to maximize stand off distance with what sorties are conducted, there has been a degree of attrition over the past year.
That number was at the beginning of the war.
Russia has nothing that is elite.