>The video?

TL;DW
>No benefit at less than 10 yards
>Dry fire isn't enough to become used to red dot. You need get used to finding the dot after firing two handed and one handed and/or other non-ideal positions.
>cost
>transition to iron sights isn't instantaneous, people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.

>inb4 zoomers seething about Wilson Combat channel

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >having a red dot means I can't point shoot at contact distances and don't train it anymore
    ok retard

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    ok

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >need
    there they go again

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      OP has special needs that’s for sure

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >sneed

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I have a need for feed and seed

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Okay.
    Do you. Your guns after all.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    okay grandpa time for bed

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      ok mall ninja.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        How retarded do you have to be to think a pistol optic is mall ninja gear.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >No benefit at less than 10 yards
    Who the fuck needs to aim at less than 10 yards in the first place?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      according to FBI statistics, the majority of self defense scenarios occur within 10 yards

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        His point is that you don't need to aim at all at that distance.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          > You'll never even see your sights in a gunfight, son
          Yeah, YOU won't.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Woosh

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Anyone who thinks they can't learn from Ken Hackathorn has left the realm of sanity. He's literally been teaching firearms use for longer than I have been alive. I can agree with a lot of what he is saying. I think there are a couple of places I disagree, respectfully. He's been around long enough that the "you damn kids get off my lawn" is his prerogative. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I've had my ass chewed by my father and my grandpa enough times to know better than to roll my eyes. 😉 I run a pistol mounted optic for my EDC, and I own a lot of dot guns. I am firmly in the 0.1%, though. My only advice is not to get mad at someone whose opinion differs from yours. It's a big internet.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >I disagree, respectfully

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    why do you "need" something in order to want it? hell I don't even "need" a pistol at all, i've never been robbed nor attacked, but i WANT to carry one just in case it does happen; just like you should WANT to be able to aim easier

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >just like you should WANT to be able to aim easier
      Except they don't actually help with this in real world scenarios. You are both a moron and a gay, and your meme accessory will never make up for the practice you're too lazy to put in to shoot well.

      • 2 months ago
        BigC

        except they do work better and allow you to aim easier
        post your pistols with and without red dots so we can take your educated and informed opinion seriously

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      if u want it for practicality, u should go most practical way. if u want it for fun u should go whatever retarded way u want and any1 can suck it

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Didn’t watch video. But you don’t even need to point out those valid arguments. All any of these consoomers have to do is watch a video of their favorite guntuber extolling the virtues of red dots on pistols, but tune out their bullshit and instead pay attention to their shooting footage and you will see that there is a .1 to .3 second delay, right at the end of their presentation but before they pull the trigger (where they’re trying to find the dot), in their first shot. It’s noticeable, it’s not an insignificant amount of time, and it could mean the difference between hitting the bad guy before he hits you in a defensive shooting.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Gosh mister, I've never thought of it like that. That explains why nobody in USPSA's open division uses dots on their pistols- it's way slower than using irons, and when you can put whatever you want on your race gun, you want the fastest option available.
      Wait a second...

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous
        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I guess Itsuki got tired of Akina mountain

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >open division
        unless your carry piece is a full blown race gun then that little factoid is utterly fucking meaningless.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >he doesn't use an EDC Bug Optics division gun for his daily carry
          look at him and laugh

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          So an optic lets competitors shoot their pistols faster and more accurately, but that same optic magically makes any pistol that doesn't have a flared magwell, compensator, slide racker and thumb rest slower. Alternatively, people shooting for time and accuracy who're monitored to a split second aren't a reliable dataset to pull conclusions from, but counting frames in Youtube videos of influencers is. That makes sense.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not him but what F1 does is not applicable to what I should have on my car or what the average person should have.

            It’s not the same.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              You're absolutely right. You have different goals for your car than F1 drivers have for theirs. Your goals are so different that the things that make their cars successful would make your car worse. But we aren't talking about cars, we're talking about pistols. Are your goals for your pistol really so different than a competitors'? Don't you both wan accurate rounds on target, ASAP? Now, you also want something concealable and relatively light, so you can't straight up carry a race gun, but why not adapt those components which help you achieve your shared goals without sacrificing the ones that set you apart?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Are your goals for your pistol really so different than a competitors
                Yes, obviously. Are you retarded?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              There isn't enough difference between a for war pistol and a race gun to be compared to a truck and an F1

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Open division is not the only division with optics anon. Carry-optics has overtaken it in popularity. CCW/BUG matches that are all about carry/duty guns have multiple optics divisions. Anyway it's obviously you don't compete or practice regularly so you may as well stick to irons. Like the guy in the video says, it's not worth it for you.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Explain. If the optic helps OD shooters get faster and more accurate hits, something you want with a gun in any situation, why is it irrelevant on a carry piece?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Competition is different and that's just obvious so it's bad on carry. Deal with it.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Retard take

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I just explained a fundamental aspect that applies across the spectrum of handgun use and how optics play into that, at least try, anon.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Fun fact, if you look at the hit factors for USPSA qualifiers, trying to qualify in open with a gun that would fit in the production division will only knock you down about a class or sometimes two. The classifiers are also much crazier than real world self defense situations or police shootouts to make minor differences in performance more measurable.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I'm not trying to say that every pistol NEEDS an optic to be effective, either competitively or in the real world. I'm saying that optics for sure don't make you any slower, and that the benefits they do provide are reasonably in line with what you probably want out of your pistol.

          >Are your goals for your pistol really so different than a competitors
          Yes, obviously. Are you retarded?

          So you don't want fast, accurate hits? Fascinating. What are your goals?

          https://i.imgur.com/BUZEgwc.jpg

          Never site gun games as evidence of utility on the streets ever again. Apples. Oranges. Simple as.

          If I had to use a shotgun outside of a structure in a combat situation I would absolutely want a similar set up. It's much more reasonable to determine the effectiveness of equipment based off of empirical data produced in competitive environments than doing so off of an expert's gut feelings or counting frames in an influencer's Youtube video.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What are your goals
            Honestly? Having a small gun on me that i can use. Thats what all the data shows is the most important thing in self defense. Minmaxing is useless. I have a life other than pretending to be a solider about to get in a gunfight

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Post Taurus G2C and Savage Axis.
              We know they're there.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I carry a 365. Bolts are just for hunting. Red dots are good for rifles, which is my home defense.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              If form factor and ease of carry are your overriding goals then sure, in your case there's no justification for red dot sights. But I think you know not everyone feels the same way.

              >If I had to use a shotgun outside of a structure in a combat situation I would absolutely get domes by rifle fire trying to get into range to use it.

              >if I HAD to do X, I would do it like this, because we've proven this is the most effective way to do X
              >hurr, X is worse than Y
              What was that about apples and oranges?

              https://i.imgur.com/punbnQz.jpg

              >So you don't want fast, accurate hits?

              moron please. If you put in the work you can do that with damn near any gun. It's the indian not the arrow. I think I'm getting too old. I've had all the arguments before and it always comes full circle back to the basics.

              >pick a gun that fits your hand and points like a 6th finger
              >shoot the fuck out of it

              Everything else is marketing bullshit.

              I got pretty good at instinctive archery as a kid because the bow I could afford at the time didn't have any sights and I could practice all day after I got out of school. That doesn't mean that a good multi-pin sight isn't a massive step up.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >If form factor and ease of carry are your overriding goals then sure, in your case there's no justification for red dot sights. But I think you know not everyone feels the same way.
                fair enough, i have had a long day anon, i apologize

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                There are so many retards on this board I don't blame you for assuming I was one, don't worry about it fren.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >If I had to use a shotgun outside of a structure in a combat situation I would absolutely get domes by rifle fire trying to get into range to use it.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >So you don't want fast, accurate hits?

            moron please. If you put in the work you can do that with damn near any gun. It's the indian not the arrow. I think I'm getting too old. I've had all the arguments before and it always comes full circle back to the basics.

            >pick a gun that fits your hand and points like a 6th finger
            >shoot the fuck out of it

            Everything else is marketing bullshit.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Never site gun games as evidence of utility on the streets ever again. Apples. Oranges. Simple as.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >site
          I agree but still kys moron

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >muh competition shooter

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This bro is literally CHALKED. Also his dot doesn't even move!

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >"consoom"
      >hyperanalyzing frames to guesstimate time differentials in YT vids
      Why are poors the way that they are

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I don't know but they've been getting increasingly uppity as of late.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cj3rj5JJ5aI/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
      I know rite!!!

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >here’s this one guy who’s really fast
        I was talking about the guys with dozens of videos of them shooting pistols with irons fast, and how they are noticeably slower with red dots.
        Like Exhibit A (you only have to watch the first five seconds to see what I’m talking about):

        Exhibit B (exemplified well starting 3:28):

        Exhibit C (sequences beginning at 12:23 and 13:06):

        You do you pham. Keep consooming

  10. 2 months ago
    BigC

    red dots are nice for
    far targets, the dot is more precise
    night time or shooting when it's too dark to see your sights well
    night vision
    training, the dot shows you all your flinches and your shaking
    if the target is within like 15 feet i don't even kow why you would use sights at all, i practice point shooting and it's really easy to hit a torso without even bringing the gun up and aiming down the sights, and that's how 90% of gun encounters will realistically happen

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >need

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    What's the actual TL;DW
    >you have to train with it to git gud or it's not worth it
    yeah
    >it's expensive to buy a good red dot and mount
    yeah
    >it's better and more accurate at distance
    yeah
    >there's added complexity and maintenance
    yeah
    >we don't know whether or not it's just a fad that will go away
    True, but I doubt it. Optics are the only really significant advancement in firearms technology since WWII, everything else has been pretty marginal improvements.
    >I shoot dramatically better with a red dot because I am a regular shooter
    no shit

    TL;DW of the TL;DW:
    >you should buy a red dot and do CCW/BUG matches with your carry gun regularly
    sneed and feed

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Based, though some of that like MUH COMPLEXITY I DUNNA GIT DEM ELECTRONS THINGS is pure fudd, particularly compared to a compared to a maintenance needing complex machine like a gun. A quality RDS is going to be more reliable than most guns are.
      >cost
      Fucking retarded. The amount of time and money you must spend to properly train and the value if you ever need it drowns out every single other one time expense. Few hundred bux for an RDS or gun is nothing. Yes if you're hyper ultra poor on food stamps it's something to cut, though in that case real training is a luxury you can't afford either except maybe 22lr.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >quality RDS is going to be more reliable than most guns are.
        Well yeah, because the pistol becomes less reliable when you put the red dot on it :^)

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          What. I get you're trying to troll or something here but this makes no sense. Like saying that a sticker on the handle would make a gun less reliable.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I just like taking shots at steel at 100 yards with my 92, near impossible to do with iron sights

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    BETTER DEAD THAN RED

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    why is Ken Hackathorn famous? Genuinely curious.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      He comes from the time when gun magazines were the "internet(marketing tool)" of the gun world. Lots of "e-celebs" were created in those days. There was a lot of copy to write in those days. And if you were in the training community you'd make connections with writers that you'd use to market your training and after 20years of that you'd really be a "name" in the industry.

      Also it was much easier to build an image that had no bearing on who you actually were or how good you were at your job back then. *cough* Jeff Cooper *cough*

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Gun magazines.

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >no benefit at less than 10 yards
    Objectively incorrect. Red dot is always faster once you learn it. 10 yards is "speed at all costs" territory.
    >dry fire isn't enough to become used to red dot
    Dry fire isn't enough to get used to anything, doofus. You have to shoot gun.
    >cost
    Holosun is like $200 and is a solid red dot. Don't fall for Trijicon marketing.
    >transition to iron sights isn't instantaneous
    I don't need irons. I have a red dot.
    >people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.
    If you train with the red dot LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO, you won't have to worry about "looking for the dot" just like irons purists don't need to spend time lining up irons. Your natural firing position will always put your sights on target.

    t. irons only EDCer

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >If you train with the red dot LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO, you won't have to worry about "looking for the dot" just like irons purists don't need to spend time lining up irons. Your natural firing position will always put your sights on target.
      Red dots will always be noticeably worse in this context if you're firing from a position other than your practiced shooting stance at the range. Shoot from an awkward position, and you won't have the luxury of your gun coming back down on target exactly how you want after each shot.

      • 2 months ago
        BigC

        post your red dot or shut the fuck up, if you have no experience with them, you have no opinion to give

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This is a problem with irons, too. If anything, the red dot is easier. You know how your gun looks when it's lined up, so it will always be natural to align it with either irons or a red dot, but the dot has a wider angle where you can see your point of aim.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          If you're shooting from a position where the front sight doesn't naturally come back into the notch, you're going to be losing the dot, and seeing where the front sight ended up and adjusting from that is going to be faster than focusing on your gun and hands and adjusting based on what your gun normally looks like.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Maybe it's just my combo of mount and optic, but I see the dot at the top of the lens when my front sight is visible at the bottom of the lens. I just don't have the problem you're talking about.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >I don't need irons. I have a red dot.
      >t. irons only EDCer

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >train
      muh training

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The video PrepHole can't refute
    Quite simply, "ok boomer"

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >No benefit at less than 10 yards
    Sure, but I'm not really using my irons very much at 10y either.
    >Dry fire isn't enough to become used to red dot. You need get used to finding the dot after firing two handed and one handed and/or other non-ideal positions.
    Yes, you have to practice. I practice.
    >cost
    This is coming from Wilson Combat? My Glock 19 with a trigger job, 507, x300u, enigma, iwb and owb holster, and 20 mags is cheaper than an entry level Wilson Combat 1911.
    >transition to iron sights isn't instantaneous, people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.
    Okay? That's why I just use the dot.

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >need
    European confirmed
    >10y
    Yes, dot is for higher precision shots at longer distance. You do shoot handgun at 50y anon, right?
    >training issues
    Yeah git gud. Pistol dot shooting is an extra skill you need to learn.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >training
    Opinion discarded. Im just going to wing it anyway. Red dot or not, doesnt matter. Just have to shoot a braindead robber anyways

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I carry revolvers. My guns will never be a fad. I'm cool.

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    He also think 10mm is a terrible semi-auto pistol cartridge, he’s a literal boomer Fudd that hates change.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      10mm IS a terrible pistol cartridge from a SD use standpoint because it's got more recoil and hence slower follow up shots vs 9mm for no significant statistical advantage in terminal ballistics.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Cite study pls.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          https://nebula.wsimg.com/d0ba783a795f1cef262aa1027d14a092?AccessKeyId=6BF38C5AD5E3222E4D9B&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

          >Common “One Shot Stop” and “Knock Down Power” are both myths perpetuated by the uninformed. The actual impact of the projectile onto a target is less than the recoil of the weapon.
          >Energy transfer is often quoted and is completely immaterial. First, the transfer of energy is represented by the Temporary Stretch Cavity and as stated is insufficient in rounds <2,000 fps to cause any damage except for brain and liver tissue. Secondly, the human body can absorb a great amount of energy without being damaged. Thirdly, a baseball hit in a game, or a hockey puck has approximately half the energy of a 9mm bullet being shot. Lastly, the human body is not one solid mass where energy is easily transferred throughout the body. Changes in tissue density and space between organs nullifies a vast amount of transfer of energy

          >The average human male is 10" thick. Most human tissue is elastic. Organs, skin, muscle, intestines and blood vessels are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Medical and military studies have shown that the outward velocity of tissue caused by the temporary stretch cavity is between 8-15% of the velocity of the projectile at the depth the stretch is created. Furthermore in these studies it was shown that human muscular tissue (other than brain or liver tissue) can stretch much faster than that velocity. Also, the distance created by the stretch cavity does not exceed the capability of the muscular tissue to stretch without tearing. At greater than around 2,000 fps it was tested, seen and measured that our test tissue did show signs of over-stretching and damage. This was noted on the rounds that were extremely high speed at impact (>2,000 fps). It was difficult to measure but is a contributing factor to overall wounding.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >bullets at typical handgun velocities must physically touch tissue to damage it as there are no remote wounding effects caused by the temporary cavity exceeding the elasticity of human flesh at these velocities
            >in order to successfully incapacitate a threat via physical damage vital structures must be damaged
            >only rounds with adequate penetration can reach these vital structures
            >shot placement and penetration are the only factors that determine the effectiveness of any given handgun round to cause physical damage to vital structures
            >the only downside to maximizing penetration with bullet selection is over-penetration
            >if you don't care about overpenetration there is no reason to ever use hollowpoints because they limit penetration in exchange for an increase in surface area which is only a theoretically worthwhile exchange if you know for a FACT that expansion will not limit your penetration to unacceptable levels
            >round nose bullets are inferior to bullets with square shoulders and flat meplats in their ability to cut tissue
            >assuming two rounds have equally adequate penetration the better round of the two will be the one you can shoot faster while maintaining accuracy.

            Hits count. First hits count most. Carry whatever gun/caliber combo you can make fast accurate hits with. Everything else is marketing bullshit designed to have you paying for overpriced meme ammunition.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I see a lot of words without any statistics dipshit

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Statistics are irrelevant. 9fudds will shit out that copypasta wall of text about how only low recoiling cartridges with high capacity to maximize hit probability matter, but if you suggest a bullet .354" or smaller, even if it were traveling 1500fps or something, they'll argue it's off meta and would do no damage due to DT like it's fucking New Vegas.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's like you can't read. That pasta literally says carry whatever you can make fast accurate hits with. Caliber is irrelevant above .32acp.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The pasta also does nothing to back that up other than spouting opinions without actual evidence.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Here's a vid by a slightly overdrammatic boomer summarizing the numbers you want

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              https://nebula.wsimg.com/d0ba783a795f1cef262aa1027d14a092?AccessKeyId=6BF38C5AD5E3222E4D9B&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

              >Common “One Shot Stop” and “Knock Down Power” are both myths perpetuated by the uninformed. The actual impact of the projectile onto a target is less than the recoil of the weapon.
              >Energy transfer is often quoted and is completely immaterial. First, the transfer of energy is represented by the Temporary Stretch Cavity and as stated is insufficient in rounds <2,000 fps to cause any damage except for brain and liver tissue. Secondly, the human body can absorb a great amount of energy without being damaged. Thirdly, a baseball hit in a game, or a hockey puck has approximately half the energy of a 9mm bullet being shot. Lastly, the human body is not one solid mass where energy is easily transferred throughout the body. Changes in tissue density and space between organs nullifies a vast amount of transfer of energy

              >The average human male is 10" thick. Most human tissue is elastic. Organs, skin, muscle, intestines and blood vessels are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Medical and military studies have shown that the outward velocity of tissue caused by the temporary stretch cavity is between 8-15% of the velocity of the projectile at the depth the stretch is created. Furthermore in these studies it was shown that human muscular tissue (other than brain or liver tissue) can stretch much faster than that velocity. Also, the distance created by the stretch cavity does not exceed the capability of the muscular tissue to stretch without tearing. At greater than around 2,000 fps it was tested, seen and measured that our test tissue did show signs of over-stretching and damage. This was noted on the rounds that were extremely high speed at impact (>2,000 fps). It was difficult to measure but is a contributing factor to overall wounding.

              So then why does a punch to your kidneys make you piss blood?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Thanks for probably fruitlessly trying to post one of the many iterations of this obvious point. Few things are as retarded as people arguing over 3.57184% paper differences for fucking handguns. They're still all handguns.

              The pasta also does nothing to back that up other than spouting opinions without actual evidence.

              jesus just look up ANY real world self defense usage stats. Not even just human but vs stuff like bears ie
              >https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/
              Like this is so well known at this point by everyone that it's like if you were trying to tell us that smokeless was a meme and no better than black powder.

              For handgun calibers nothing matters more than the shooter. Anything that's center fire and larger than 25-32 and you're comfortable with and can do a quick 3-5 shots in a fist size or smaller at <10yd is going to be fine. Though if you do expect to face bears take 20 minutes to read a simple bear hunting guide and understand where their vitals are. But if you're landing everything on target and mag dump you'll probably be fine by pure luck anyway.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Anything that's center fire and larger than 25-32
                Honestly, even .25 ACP and .32 ACP or even .22lr will be good enough with proper ammo choice, with the only real downside vs larger calibers being barrier penetration. The main issue with .22lr is just the inherent reliability issues that come with rimfire cartridges in an auto loader.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I live in a rural area so my primary defense usage I have in mind is bears not humans (and not theoretically, I've had 7 encounters in my life 2 of which were aggressive), which warps my thinking a bit I guess. I've been able to find stats and reports on gun usage vs bears for larger stuff but not that small. Plus the ammo isn't even cheap and gun variety is eh. You can get basic cheap shit 9mm at 21cpr now. Cheapest 25acp I've seen is like 47cpr. Even for ultra compact where I wanted something softer than 9mm I'd probably go for 380, but normal EDC is a full size. So I kind of discount those which you're right isn't really fair.

                I agree though that modern loads make a huge difference for any caliber, the centerfire vs rimfire thing is the primary differentiator, rimfire is just inherently less reliable in that role even when manufactured properly. It's super cheap and wonderful for vermin and plinking and learning and fun, but not what I'd carry. Otherwise whatever, learn to make good shots.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I live in a rural area so my primary defense usage I have in mind is bears not humans (and not theoretically, I've had 7 encounters in my life 2 of which were aggressive), which warps my thinking a bit I guess. I've been able to find stats and reports on gun usage vs bears for larger stuff but not that small. Plus the ammo isn't even cheap and gun variety is eh. You can get basic cheap shit 9mm at 21cpr now. Cheapest 25acp I've seen is like 47cpr. Even for ultra compact where I wanted something softer than 9mm I'd probably go for 380, but normal EDC is a full size. So I kind of discount those which you're right isn't really fair.

                I agree though that modern loads make a huge difference for any caliber, the centerfire vs rimfire thing is the primary differentiator, rimfire is just inherently less reliable in that role even when manufactured properly. It's super cheap and wonderful for vermin and plinking and learning and fun, but not what I'd carry. Otherwise whatever, learn to make good shots.

                Also since it's come up: it bothers the fuck out of me that .25 and .32 are so expensive, well over double 9mm, like 70% more than 40S&W even, more than 45, in fact 32 is literally more expensive then 10mm Auto even. FFS. Guess it really underlines how much volume matters vs nearly anything else.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Absolutely dunning-kruger tier hot take. Minimum velocity for meaningful TSC is 1500fps, this is hardly unachievable for many handguns. Bigger holes don't matter because they're made with higher velocity, higher velocity matters because it's a way of making bigger holes. This is because wound cavity diameter absolutely DOES matter if the difference in size is big enough. Arguing otherwise is just foaming at the mouth small caliber apologism taken to a ridiculous extreme.
              >No reason for hollow points
              9mm and up have enough energy to reach deep vitals from almost any practical/realistic angle with mildly expanding JHPs, the natural conclusion to your line of thinking would be carrying a lightly loaded FN HC or FN monolithic of some type. These would be able to penetrate 4ft + of tissue if loaded warmly enough to reliably cycle a typical 9mm firearm. The gains from mild or moderate expansion may be small, debatable even theoretical, but the gains from 5ft of penetration potential are non existent.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I carry a 10mm because I have a boner for large caliber handguns and 10mm is the largest practical caliber.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                45 ACP is a larger bore and more practical.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                How? Less capacity and much slower.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Shot placement and blood loss.
                45 ACP has more manageable recoil than 10mm and should allow for quicker follow up shots and it should be easier to stay on target in center body mass. I think 45 ACP recoil is very often over stated. My Glock 30 is no more unmanageable than my 9mm P365 XL. That concealability comes with a price.
                Stopping power and hydrostatic shock is a meme. People die from either from taking out their CNS or from blood loss. If you can get more bullets into a person with 45 than a 10mm then they're more likely to bleed to death, and you're more likely to land a heart shot with more rounds down range in a given time.
                >capacity
                The difference between a Glock 20 and 21 is 15 vs 13 rounds. If you consider that the vast majority of self defense shootings occur within 3 seconds you will not empty either mag even with 0.25 second splits which is incredibly fast for a 10mm.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >People die from either from taking out their CNS or from blood loss
                Not that it conflicts with your overall point but just my fucking autism, a heart shot or lung shot is pretty good too. Not quite the instantaneous putdown of a CNS shot though heart will be close but it's going to get them out of the action fairly fast.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Heart and lung certainly kill but neither of those are off switches like the CNS.
                A person can be shot through the heart and may continue to fight/return fire until their blood pressure drops enough that they pass out.
                A lung shot is the same, a person may continue to engage until they suffocate.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Stopping power and hydrostatic shock is a meme. People die
                Who gives a fuck if they die? If I land a perfect shot linearly along someone's radius/ulna and blow up their gun arm they can't shoot me. I couldn't give a fuck if they die after.
                Stopping power is about stunning/disabling/concussive effect leading to a cessation of combat activities. Death is irrelevant. If I need someone to die I can stop them fighting then go kneel on their trachea if I want.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >I couldn't give a fuck if they die after.
                So they don't point at you in court and call you racist while they plead they was getting they life on track and goin to church an shit.
                >go kneel on their trachea if I want
                Explain that to a jury

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >If I land a perfect shot linearly along someone's radius/ulna and blow up their gun arm they can't shoot me
                actually one of the most common injuries in gunfights.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Pistol calibre has been extensively studied and it doesn't matter at all for terminal ballistics and lethality. Consider external ballistics, armor penetration, recoil and cost when selecting your defensive pistol calibre, but don't consider lethality because there's no appreciable difference.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Not him but I'd call 10mm "suboptimal" maybe but "terrible" is silly. Precisely because as you say evidence of real world self defense shows it still worked. I ended up just switching everything to 9mm except for ultra compact, but the most important thing is what someone likes and feels comfortable with for them individually, and thus will train with. 45, 40, 9mm, 10mm, 380, whatever. If it's centerfire and not a snowflake round and someone can afford to and is putting in the time it's gay to get into cartridge wars. At the end of the day they're all still handgun rounds.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >He also think 10mm is a terrible semi-auto pistol cartridge
      It is though. More recoil and much higher practice costs all for about a tenth of an inch more expansion vs 9mm with comparable penetration, amounting to a few hundredths of an inch more of an acceptable margin of error on hitting something important vs 9mm.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      To be clear his problem with it is the lack of reliable carry options chambered in it (technically wrong nowadays, but whatever), not the cartridge itself.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        outside of a glock is there many budget friendly options? all the other ones are fuck huge (Tangfolio/sig) or expensive (Luger)

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No lol
          Unless you consider GI 1911s that go for $2K budget friendly and not fuck huge
          Also Tanfoglio and Sig are not reliable without a lot of parts swapping

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Also Tanfoglio and Sig are not reliable without a lot of parts swapping
            Cz75 and P220 are not reliable? what?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Tanfoglio has poor QC in general so the only way their guns are better than CZ is being dry fire safe out of the box. Their 10mms are especially bad since it's just a lazy barrel swap from 9mm so they jam up every other mag.
              P220s are probably fine (X-Ten not so much), but I'd bet the ones they make now are calibrated for neutered loads, which 10mms are very picky about.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Cz75 is incredibly reliable, are you on drugs?

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    So why should I care about this guy's opinion more than my own opinion that I've made after testing what I like for myself at the range?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I'd hear anyone out that had been doing anything all the time for 40+yrs but it wouldn't mean I'd necessary adopt anything they say.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I dunno, anon. I'm not willing to agree to those terms. When Colin Noir or Garand Thumb or Twink Botkin are 60, are we really going to want to listen to them just because they've been shilling for that long?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I mean you get paid to shoot guns for 100s of thousands of rounds+ for multiple decades you're going to have learned some things doing that. It's up to each person to deduce what if any of that knowledge is applicable to them and their situation.

          There is no TL:DR on life.

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    that beard looks like some animal's ballsack

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >he doesnt want an optic that auto adjusts for any lighting conditions, no tritium to expire, and has infinite focus for night vision use
    ngmi

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You don't need nightvision. Civilians shouldn't have it it's a military assault technology and should be restricted only to properly authorized organizations.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        your bait was too strong, needs to be more subtle and youll get me next time

        also, is that a seeall sight?
        i noticed you have illuminator on when aiming it, what happens if you turn the illuminator off and aim it

        it's mostly my moron rigged camera, irl i could see perfectly. also apparently high voltage transmission lines ionize the air.

        • 2 months ago
          BigC

          >also apparently high voltage transmission lines ionize the air.
          holy shit that's epic im gonna go look later
          ill have to try a seeall, been wanting to for a long time

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            they're ok, they're like a more precise version of a red dot thats a little less forgiving on alignment. I feel like I can snipe with it but it's hard to find the reticle sometimes.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Fuck you I don't. I live on a ranch sized lot and don't want to blast spotlights to see if anything is fucking around my cows.

    • 2 months ago
      BigC

      i hate how illuminators just gate the fuck out of the tube with tons of splash
      the focused illuminators on the LAM are great because they have zero spill to gate your shit

    • 2 months ago
      BigC

      also, is that a seeall sight?
      i noticed you have illuminator on when aiming it, what happens if you turn the illuminator off and aim it

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I wondered how long until this came to PrepHole. Hackathorne out there kicking the hornests' nest for views.

    Anyway, while I understand how it's not a 1:1 comparison, any older guys remember if the swap over to RDS from irons on a service rifle started this much shit? By the time I started learning to shoot, people made fun of guys with an aimpoint and no BUIS, but the general consensus was that RDSs were superior to irons and here to stay on rifles.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >any older guys remember if the swap over to RDS from irons on a service rifle started this much shit?

      Aside from the eternal LPVO vs dot/magnifier battle not really. It's a no brainer that optics are better for rifles. The engagement range is usually longer though and the need for rapid point shooting is less. You don't really need an optic to shoot someone fast at 10yds with a rifle either though.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Truth be told I'm impressed anyone is still alive keyboarding over the RDS adoptive consensus. The M68 Aimpoint was the beginning, night vision capability expanded it , while the true future of all relevant sidearms nearing the Aimpoint Pistol Acro P-2. Render the opinion of irons over RDS Mediocre. Iron sights are the grand father clocks of the gun world now, to fade into obscurity and than oblivion. The old guard are on life support now. The future of RDS is now Old Boomers.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Red dots on rifles compared to pistols is apples and oranges. The biggest difference being the ranges you use them, the second being that the fact sight picture is a much bigger deal with rifles as opposed to pistols as resting your head in a slightly different spot will throw off your POI ever so slightly, red dots completely solve this issue on rifles, however it's not an issue to begin with on pistols. Another big difference is that rifle red dots have a much larger view than pistols and are much closer to your face so there's pretty much zero chance of losing the dot.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >By the time I started learning to shoot, people made fun of guys with an aimpoint and no BUIS, but the general consensus was that RDSs were superior to irons and here to stay on rifles.
      I remember the consensus in the late 2000s/early 2010s being that irons were still good enough and that a red dot was only really better at CQB ranges. If you look up pictures of the Bundy Ranch standoff in 2014, a lot of the militia guys don't have an optic on their gun and having an optic seem to have been considered a lower priority than having plates (or at least a plate carrier) or other gear by most of them.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This is correct. You can even dig up a lot of early PrepHole memes to that effect. It followed US military equipment. When optics became standard there everyone's opinion followed.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >The US military is a bunch of retards who can't even defeat goat farmers
          >Also their doctrine and practices are the gold standard and we're going to copy them
          Checks out

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >>The US military is a bunch of retards who can't even defeat goat farmers
            The US military didn't fail to defeat farmers because their shooting skills were inadequate.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          A lot of it had to do with optics getting cheper.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I'm gonna kek hard in 5 years when RDS become uncool just like how laser sights are now.
      Also a hot take. For a carry gun a lazer sight is probably better than a RDS.

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    So basically they make no sense on a carry gun, but do make sense if you're going for an offensive handgun build and you get in a lot of regular practice.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No, they don't. An IER or LER scope is unironically a better option. Honestly the French hit the mark on the offensive handgun concept better with the MR73. If OHWS were run again it would ideally drop the .45 requirement and end up with a DA/SA seeled chamber revolver design slinging some kind of gigantic subsonic round and with a fat scope on top.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >An IER or LER scope is unironically a better option
        That's fucking retarded. Why would you use a magnified optic inside 100 yards?

        >a DA/SA seeled chamber revolver design slinging some kind of gigantic subsonic round
        Why? All you're going to achieve is more recoil. Either go all the way with something larger than .357 magnum in a revolver or .460 Rowland or larger in an autoloader, or dial back to something lighter recoiling that you can hold more of like 5.7x28mm.

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    > Ken Hackathorn is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor and has provided training to Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies.

    So, you know he can't shoot worth shite.

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I love how much butthurt this video causes. A guy with more shooting experience than most people alive dares to say that buying more equipment doesn't give any real-world advantage, and people flip their shit. Or, more accurately, people who didn't own guns before 2013 flip their shit. All those guys who love to talk up a red dot are now desperately relying on the use of the word "need" to counter the fact that the toy accessory they put on their carry gun is just that. A toy. I'll remind you that if you didn't own a gun before Sandy Hook, you will never be a real gun owner.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      > if you didn't own a gun before Sandy Hook, you will never be a real gun owner.

      Thats Dark & Brutal

      9/10

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >no true scotsman
      The second amendment wasn't meant for manchildren like you.

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Ken Hackathorne reminds me of a used car salesman. All of these "trainers" who make their money off of civillian dumbass wannabe operators are snake oil salesmen. Their opinions are worthless.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You mean people like Aaron Cowen and all the other red dot shills?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Are you telling me the Shok-Buff won’t make me a better shooter?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        moron all that is for is to keep the gun from beating itself to death with hot loads.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Literally does nothing except destroy your springs faster than normal. They used to come on his 1911 and everyone I known took them out right away.

  31. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It look cool and I want it, that's all there is to it.

  32. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Old 1911man doesn't like newfangled gun tings - the movie 2022

    Ken might have a lot of life and gun experience, but the future is now old man, and now is red dots.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >the future is now old man, and now is red dots.
      Surely there must be loads of videos by now proving this point, right? For all I hear about red dots, especially on carry guns, I shouldn't be able to walk three feet without tripping over evidence of their unrivaled superiority in the context of self defense shootings. So please provide me with just one simple video of a direct comparison showing someone putting up a significantly better time with a red dot on no more than 3 targets at 10 yards or less. I know people like to argue theoretical advantages, but those shouldn't be necessary considering there's so much hard evidence of the red dot's superiority, right?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Old 1911man
      >in video show several glocks and no 1911s
      okay

      It's ridiculous just how many people bought into that. There were guys arguing how one tenth of an inch difference of bore axis mattered for a carry gun. Another trend that was thankfully short was people talking about putting a rear sight on your gun with a 90 degree ledge so you can do one-handed gun manipulations off of a belt or table. Meanwhile, I'm racking novak sights off of my pants leg. The common trend I'm seeing here is people focusing too much on equipment over shooting skill, because buying something is much easier to show off than shooting well.

      >people focusing too much on equipment over shooting skill
      I think this is nearly the entire "Internet gun community" at this point. It's ogre.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I saw the clickbaity title and didn't watch it. Hackathorn is a big 1911 dude, this is known.

  33. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I like his comments on past fads that have come and gone. I remember when people were talking up bore axis as a major concern when picking a handgun and pic related getting significant hype because of how low the bore axis was. Then the Sig P320 came out with its much higher bore axis due to being based off the hammer fired P250 and the Army adopted it and suddenly people stopped caring near as much. Hell, I saw an infographic of the guns and gear being used by competitors in the USPSA nationals that had the P320 as one of the most popular options despite its high bore axis.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's ridiculous just how many people bought into that. There were guys arguing how one tenth of an inch difference of bore axis mattered for a carry gun. Another trend that was thankfully short was people talking about putting a rear sight on your gun with a 90 degree ledge so you can do one-handed gun manipulations off of a belt or table. Meanwhile, I'm racking novak sights off of my pants leg. The common trend I'm seeing here is people focusing too much on equipment over shooting skill, because buying something is much easier to show off than shooting well.

  34. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >boomer
    Firearms opinions immediately discarded

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >zoomer
      Firearms opinions immediately discarded

  35. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's not called the bill of needs.

  36. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    In today’s thread, boomers act like practice is impossible
    >No benefit at less than 10 yards
    I’d be hesitant to shoot a gunman in a 7-11 with people around if I didn’t feel like I could hit a grape

  37. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you have more fun, you will shoot more, and if you shoot more, you will shoot better. If you like red dots, use a red dot. It is preference and common sense.

  38. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    "Red dots don't provide an advantage"
    Read this gem and other mad ravings by lunatics who have never tried one properly

  39. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >need
    no
    >want
    yes
    >why
    because i do
    >but this person says
    i'm not this person

  40. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >need
    Discarded, and I'm objectively better with my RMR than I am with my irons so eat shit.

  41. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >you don't need a red dot

    You don't need a flushing toilet either, if you shit while squatting in your filthy yard.

  42. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >get red dot
    >it takes practice to find dot
    >practice
    >reliably hit targets at distances I had trouble with using irons
    >stay target focused while using red dot

    Yeah you dont NEED an rmr but the benefits are obviously there, red dots on rifles are the standard and in the few years it’ll be the same for pistols.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Congratulations anon, you had a nonretarded, reasonable take and also happen to be the first poster in this thread to finally post a gun you actually own. Funny how that works.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        This board wouldn’t exist without the shit flinging autism but yeah, noguns has a bad take, more at 11

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >block
          >calling people no guns
          so when do you get a real gun?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Cope, noguns

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >block
            that's not a block, this is a block

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              it still has a glock frame, to be a true block it needs a block frame.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Babies first firearm

          kek, bussin bro

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >block
            >calling people no guns
            so when do you get a real gun?

            Cope

      • 2 months ago
        MilSurpDude

        Poorfags will always try to shit on things they cannot afford rather than come to terms with the fact it's simply outside of their pricerange and that's that, or that they can strive to better their situation. Easier to stew in resentment.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >if you don’t spend $500 bucks on this particular piece of equipment you are poor
          >no, I don’t take your income, net worth, or other assets into consideration
          >it’s just that you won’t consoom a red dot like me

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Go outside Timmy

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You know what they say, a fool and his money are soon parted

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >upgrades are consooming
            Sad

          • 2 months ago
            MilSurpDude

            Post your most valuable guns, anon. Or any, for that matter.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              post yours tripnmoron
              >trying to brag with a glock
              >calls other poor

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                In which category? For pistols it's my 1914 date C96, though at $1600 at purchase, it's about to be handily supplanted for the $4000 Red 9 I'm getting lined up. For PCC, it's my MP5 clone which now has in excess of $4000 pumped into it. For rifles, it's my 11.5" SBR AR that's coming in at about $2300 or so.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >tripfag goes to a random thread and starts off topic bragging about how much he spends on guns
                No matter how many years pass from when pic related was first made, it remains true.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >any
              Ok here’s one. I’ve got $4-5k in optics, including an RMR, but they are on things that make them useful (rifles).

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                >gas tube-mounted optic on a WASR
                >accuses others of "consooming"
                Yeah.

                https://i.imgur.com/Gq1USsZ.png

                >tripfag goes to a random thread and starts off topic bragging about how much he spends on guns
                No matter how many years pass from when pic related was first made, it remains true.

                I'm responding to an anon who literally asked what my most expensive stuff was, so direct your butthurt elsewhere.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Great argument.

                Include any cute little notes on any of your buyer’s remorse shit you’ve sold lately? Any nice arts and crafts? You’re a fag.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                He's right you know

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                >The poor lashes out when he is confronted
                I've shot far more with pistol irons than not. My carry piece, a CZ75 Compact, is completely stock. My experience dictates to me optics on handguns can and do serve a purpose and have virtually zero downside outside of profiling. Don't be a moron about it because you have minimal experience with both to come to your own conclusions, and certainly don't use a WC shill for advice.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >my carry piece, the gun that serves to protect my life, doesn’t have a red dot
                >I like to put myself at a shooting disadvantage with this gun because clearly it would be faster and more accurate with a red dot.
                >the only con about red dots is profiling, and this is something I’m unwilling to accept on my carry pistol
                What was this post supposed to convey?

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                Pretending to be dense doesn't make your argument valid.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                If the only downside of a red dot is profiling, why does your carry gun not have an optic?

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                Because it's a carry gun and I like to keep the profile reduced? Anon, you're pretending to be dense, right? You're not commenting on things you don't have any real experience with, right?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Why are you calling that profiling rather than printing like everyone else does? Why come up with your own lingo to describe something that prevents you from being able to effectively communicate with other people?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                NTA but you're being a gay if you're pretending to not understand what's being conveyed, and I see profile being used to discuss handgun dimensions all the time. Shitloads of handguns manufacturers list "reduced profile" as features for slimmer/smaller versions of their product
                all the time.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Profile yes. Profiling no. When I read profiling, I thought he meant in related to getting profiled by cops or the prosecutor as someone who was looking for a chance to use their decked out gun and getting charged with a crime in the event that you need to defend yourself.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I've noticed this on occasion on PrepHole recently. People have gone so far toward only being concerned with feeling like they've won an internet argument rather than participating in actual discussion that using language that effectively communicates their point is starting to become meaningless and they just make up their own technical terms.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It’s good to know that even from red dot advocates, all of the benefits of a red dot are outweighed by the the size increase it requires when attached. It’s almost like there aren’t any real benefits besides long range accuracy.

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                > all of the benefits of a red dot are outweighed by the the size increase it requires when attached.
                For me, at the moment. With some tinkering I could probably get a RMRcc to do the job just fine with little to no increase in printing. Handguns are the most subjective firearms there is, which you'd probably understand if you weren't so broke and inexperienced. :^

                Why are you calling that profiling rather than printing like everyone else does? Why come up with your own lingo to describe something that prevents you from being able to effectively communicate with other people?

                Because I'm discussing the profile of the handgun. Why are poors like this?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >With some tinkering I could probably get a RMRcc to do the job just fine with little to no increase in printing
                Now you are saying that the only downside (size) to red dots isn’t an issue with a particular red dot (rmrcc), and yet you still don’t have an rmrcc attached to your pistol. Don’t you want all those sweet advantages?
                >saying I’m poor or inexperienced
                Neither are true but whatever

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                >Now you are saying that the only downside (size) to red dots isn’t an issue with a particular red dot (rmrcc)
                No, I said "For me" and "with some tinkering I could probably get a RMRcc to the job fine." I don't know exactly how an optic will do with my CC until I try it, but I do know I want reduced profile as it's a carry piece, and based on my experience with a full-sized RMR on a Glock 19, it will likely have a noticeable effect unless I go for a smaller optic.
                >and yet you still don’t have an rmrcc attached to your pistol
                Because it's not a high priority currently. Are you trying to say that I'm saying a red dot offers incredible, game-changing advantages to a carry piece?

                For someone so confident, so experienced, you sure are having to shove words into my mouth to give your argument a platform.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Are you trying to say that I'm saying a red dot offers incredible, game-changing advantages to a carry piece?
                Those are your terms, but if there are tangible benefits to a red dot for non-carry pistols (besides just long range accuracy), the implication is that those benefits would also be apparent and useful on carry pistols, and given the fact that the “only downside”, the added bulk/size, is mitigated by choosing an rmrcc, the fact that you don’t have an rmrcc attached to your carry gun says a lot about how advantageous you really think a red dot is.
                >FOR ME
                Yeah, we’re talking about your shitty opinion. I’m pointing out the hypocrisy in it.

                For someone so quick to try to point out logical fallacies in my argument you sure have been using “you’re just poor” a lot.

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                >Those are your terms
                Nah, the terms were that dots had no purpose on handguns. Your disingenuous attempts at debating tire me
                >the fact that you don’t have an rmrcc attached to your carry gun says a lot about how advantageous you really think a red dot is.
                The fact I've been carrying it for less than two months, have been moving, and haven't even begun to think of shifting my carrying routine from my earlier setup to accommodate an optic, much less get around to buying it and having the slide sent off for milling and refinishing says I don't really think pistol dots do anything?

                You're absolutely desperate to justify your dislike of something you don't have experience with.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >buying it
                I thought you weren’t a poorfag
                >mailing something
                Not only do you love mailing stuff, you love taking the time to add personalized notes to each and every package
                >says I don’t really think pistol dots do anything
                Yeah, pretty much. Certainly don’t think of them highly enough to warrant your autistic YOU'RE SO POOR response to people who don’t agree with you.

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                The absolutely pitiable state of anon.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                you gonna buy the new production woodsman?

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                God no, I'm plenty happy with my century old original and Colt's attempts at repros have been largely disastrous, their recent revolver revival being the exception.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                its being made by standard MFG. MSRP $999.

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                I don't like case hardening on anything not a lever-action or revolver. That aside, it's the First Series I really fell in love with, so if they're offering that in a blued finish alongside the Second Series like you pictured...

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                they are.

              • 2 months ago
                MilSurpDude

                I've noticed this on occasion on PrepHole recently. People have gone so far toward only being concerned with feeling like they've won an internet argument rather than participating in actual discussion that using language that effectively communicates their point is starting to become meaningless and they just make up their own technical terms.

                >IF HANDGUN OPTICS HAVE ADVANTAGES WHY ISN'T YOUR NEW CARRY PIECE EQUIPPED WITH ONE RIGHT NOW HUH?
                >WHY ARE YOU SAYING PROFILE AND NOT PRINTING, IS IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO ACTUALLY DEBATE?

                Threads like this remind me that being poor impacts your mental health.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You're just being a fuckstick now, not all handguns are for the same role and not all people use the same carrying setups. A bit of printing increase that can't be overcome by adjusting your holster/clothing can easily be seen as worth the fast sight acquisition and precision a red dot can offer. For a lot, printing isn't even a concern to begin with. Whether the disadvantages a red dot offers over its advantages is entirely up to your own situation and preferences.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >certainly don’t use a WC shill for advice
                I’m glad I have no idea what this means

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Bro what is that mount UTG? You have a receiver rail, use it.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It’s ultimak, but you know that. I likely would have gone the receiver rail route but I have a folding stock AK, that although it also has a receiver rail, I wouldn’t be able to use the folding stock with a receiver rail attached. The idea was that I’d have this single mounting solution that could be swapped between rifles and still be able to use the folding functionality of the other rifle. If it ever caused an issue, I could re-evaluate, but it hasn’t fried my Aimpoint or modlight yet.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You're an unironic noshoots if you don't think pistol dots can be useful. Full stop.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Okay but do you have a handgun with an optic too? What are you basing your assumption on?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Feels. Anyone who actually practices with both setups will tell you pistol dots offer things irons don't. There's tradeoffs, as with any gun setup versus another. The question is whether they're worth it to you or can be overcome by you, personally.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >hurr why don't people treat PrepHole like instagram?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Omegacope

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          you are currently posting on an imageboard, noguns newfag

  43. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I love seeing these wannabes with fully modded weapons, the moment you give them a rifle or pistol with just irons and they go full retard.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Guy at range shooting his carry gun
      >Shoots it competently
      >Give him completely different weapon that he's likely never fired before
      >Performance decreases

      Boy, what a scoop! You should become a journalist! The first openly autistic firearms journalist, asking the hard hitting questions!

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >people with setups taken beyond factory stock cannot shoot
      How does this povertyfag cope even enter the realm of rationaliztion?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I bet an F-35 pilot would have some trouble after being asked to try horse mounted cavalry too anon.

  44. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    the sour grapes in this thread haha

    i weep for my board

  45. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >tl;dw version
    red dots are superior for shooting pistols at a distance, are inferior to irons for point blank rapid target acquisition. Kinda a meme for anyone who needs to draw from their holster and rapidly shoot, not as big a deal if you can walk around with your gun in your hand.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >red dots are superior for shooting pistols at a distance
      They are inferior for shooting everything at a distance becaus ethe size of the dot is stupidly large in moa and obscures to much of it at any range. Most red dots are just junk for American cosplay larpers. The only reason they exist in the mil is for use with NV

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They are inferior in every way to iron sights, that's why people use them.
        Because they want a challenge.
        You're actually playing on easy mode by using iron sights, which are notoriously OP.

        Get gud, casul

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        They sell pistol dots that aren't 6 moa those ones with the massive hoods and massive dots are complete memes. I'm waiting until we can make Alon frameless dots so the dot is as easy to find as your front sight post on the draw. Dots of the future will likely be just clear metallic ceramics or alloys that are projected into. Until then they aren't really good for drawing on something as is with their bulk that blocks vision.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          red dots are shit, pistol red dots are peak gonsumer bullshit and this thread and that youtube video are just more b grade lets' have a debate marketing for them. The kind of people who but this shit are fucking retarded.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Cope

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Muh stupid thing of the week for tards marketing thread is ruined.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Shut up poorfag, come back when you've tried a red dot

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                post your guns, bonus points if you have anything worth over a grand.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I have guns here worth more than your house, I even have cannon and I never have and never will post a gun in response to someone loosing an argument,

                Shut up poorfag, come back when you've tried a red dot

                .You are the poverty poster boy maybe buying some crap will change that. No...no it won't. This thread stinks of noguns bong airsofters

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                ok kid

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Then leave, I'm discussing dots and you're throwing a fit.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            There it is again, some poormoron shrieking
            >CONSOOOOMEEERRR
            to the skies as he tries to convince people he's anything but the coper he obviously is.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        My pistol dot is literally 1 MOA, are you so good that you're managing sub-MOA groups with a handgun with such consistency you're hampered by that?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Then leave, I'm discussing dots and you're throwing a fit.

          Cope

          larpedy darpedo gonsume do I have a retarded pistol red dot for you

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            buzzword buzzword buzzword we get it you don't like thing, no need to just keep posting the same thing over and over.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            noguns

  46. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I hate red dots. because I am who I am I have crates of teh fucking things sent to me for free and don't even look at them. I don't use them on my weapons either and the ONLY red dot I have is an 8x LPOV by steiner with a 30mm front lens with the option of a sub moa illumination at the centre of a fine crosshair. I have an eotech for NV but honestly in contrast to most of PrepHole I don't like using NV on most nights in actual combat in countryside unless I am using it from an OP or on a weapon mount as it fucks up my night vision which is very good but that's another conversation.

  47. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >old guy cant into red dots
    >admits new shooters will pick up rds easier
    >admits he shoots rds better
    Textbook example of sour grapes.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Cool someone else who actually watched the video and noticed that.

  48. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >10 yards
    >Imagine not practicing your quick draw hipfire
    Y'all just lackin, red dot makes your problems a dead dot at distance.

  49. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I hate red dot fags.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      i hate gearfags

  50. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >You don't need a red dot
    You don't need a gun.
    >No benefit at less than 10 yards
    So you're saying there is benefit beyond 10 yards
    >Dry fire isn't enough to become used to red dot. You need get used to finding the dot after firing two handed and one handed and/or other non-ideal positions.
    Yeah and?
    >cost
    Yeah and?
    >transition to iron sights isn't instantaneous, people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.
    Yeah and?
    >inb4 zoomers seething about Wilson Combat channel
    Wilson Combat is overpriced scam to rob boomers of their money. Their guns suck and damn sure aren't what they charge them. Their special diamond serrations are too shallow and narrow making them slippery as fuck. Their grip technology especially on their small 9mm is horrible and their 1911's are outclassed by Nighthawk Customs among others. On top of all that their customer service is garbage. I'm not a zoomer and I don't watch their channel. They just suck.

  51. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Wilson Combat Channel are the same people that said you shouldn't put a light on your gun because you might point your gun at someone using it. They're retards.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yes, the preferred method of illuminating your surroundings is taking out your cellphone and using that as a flashlight.
      Double points if you put it on camera mode and record the video of your own death for everyone else to see!

  52. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Discussions of pistol optics vs irons always feel like stepping into opposite world to me. For example, we have certain myths in the firearms world, like a .50 cal will cause tissue damage just from flying past a person. We have video evidence to dispel this myth.

    Another one is the myth that the .30 carbine would be stopped by a winter coat in the Korean war, and we have video evidence to dispel this myth.

    But when it comes to handgun red dots, it's the opposite. We have video evidence destroying the myth that a red dot gives any advantage at under 10 yards, but every time I post these videos, all I get are excuses.

    And I understand that these are full-size guns, but they're still carryable guns. So I just ask, can someone please do a video comparing irons vs red dot on an average carry gun? Let's say a P365, double Mozambique, 7 yards. Show me the supposed superiority of the red dot. Otherwise, it's just a myth like the other stuff.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      We have video evidence too though that red dots are just as fast under 10 yd with training, that they make it easier for newbies to spot certain flaws in their shooting, and that they're superior above 10yd. Which means there is no downside to having them for close shooting (and you can and should still train point and shoot anyway) and upsides. So any complaints about them boil down to "cost" (which is utterly irrelevant and stupid for lots of us because a few hundred is completely drowned out by consumables alone) and "size" which is purely a matter of individual target use. I wouldn't and don't use a dot on a compact. I do on a full size HG which I carry around the farm, outdoors trips innawoods etc. I'm 100% onboard with "no you don't have to have this if you're really on the breadline" and "yes it's fine to leave off for lots of CC scenarios" but the hate they get from irons people is ludicrous too.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >We have video evidence too though that red dots are just as fast under 10 yd with training
        You wrote a whole paragraph instead of just posting the video evidence.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Shit, fuck, nevermind. I realized that you said "just as fast" rather than "superior", and my argument brain took over. I posted the evidence. Derp.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Shit, fuck, nevermind. I realized that you said "just as fast" rather than "superior", and my argument brain took over. I posted the evidence. Derp.
            Yes, definitely not "superior". Sorry anon, I was just trying to say that they aren't actively BAD at <10yd with training either, so the downside is something a bit bigger and another few hundred bux in exchange for some other bonuses if you use a gun for more stuff then just self-defense. It's a reasonable set of tradeoffs is all and one could honestly fall either way. People who say RDS are a "meme" are being fags in the same way as people who shit on someone for making an informed choice for irons only. Or hell, nothing and just point and shoot, or even a grip laser or whatever. If someone has thought through their use scenarios carefully and then does the training needed themselves that's the important thing.

            "Meme" stuff in my mind is retarded pure shit like those ludicrous RIP rounds which actively perform worse in every respect but are supposed to look scary or something. Pure snake oil. Something that is useful in some use cases and not others is just, like, the norm not the exception in firearms, there are very few things in gun history that were simply pure wins.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I'll explain it to you then. I'm at my keyboard and I have a few moments.

      Firstly, red dots are not required.
      Secondly, they have 2 primary advantages over irons.

      One advantage is having a single focal plane use. Meaning you keep your head up and eyes open while looking at the target. This is opposite of irons. With irons it's considered properly to look at the front sight, certainly for accuracy but with a red dot you keep your eyes on the target. This is less to keep track of and the advantageous should be obvious enough that I'm not going to get into the weeds on them.

      Another advantage is "dot size". At distances beyond 25 yards.. you say 10 yards but I'm good with irons and I'll say beyond 25 yards, red dots are simply more accurate. The dot is considerably smaller than the front post and you can look at your target instead of the front post. Ergo you can see what you're aiming at with the dot whereas at distance the front post would obscure and the target would be out of focus. This means the red dot pushes out effective range of your pistol.

      You could make several arguments against the above 2 points. For example you could practice point shooting with some degree of success and you could set your irons up to have a 6 o'clock hold. These are very training intensive and the skills will not necessarily transfer from firearm to firearm. For example point shooting only works with a consistent grip angle and only has so much accuracy potential.

      On the other hand, red dots do require batteries and I wouldn't want a red dot without co-witnessed irons. They also make it harder to find holsters, add cost and complexity for very little return in an up close self defense situation. However, that does not make false their advantages.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Meaning you keep your head up and eyes open while looking at the target.
        i do this with irons. with bright sights like fiber optics its easy to do. the irons are a little blurry but its not enough to matter.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >irons are a little blurry but its not enough to matter.
          Then we have different standards of accuracy and fiber optic sights are the worst. Almost none of them are any good and even the ones that do work as prescribed aren't as sharp as proper night sights. They are cheaper to make than tritium sights which is fine but then their sold as premium. There's nothing premium about them. It's lame.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I have never tried tritium or night sights so i wouldn't know. i can keep a group a bit smaller than my hand doing this.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >I can keep a group a bit smaller than my hand doing this
              If you mean at 15 yards or more, I'd say that's decent considering the technique. I keep a hand sized group at 25 yards but I actually aim.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I do aim. I center the front sight in the rear notch. its not a blurry mess just a bit fizzy on the edges. I generally shoot at about 13 yards due to how my shooting spot is set up.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's pretty good then.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                it kinda looks like this. i like to zero at the bottom edge of the bull for "combat". its really easy after you practice for awhile. if im shooting for groups i aim with front sight focus of course.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Shave your irons, they are getting too hairy

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                i like my guns to have bush

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Then we have different standards of accuracy
            Not that anon, but what he's talking about is called "flash sight picture" and people who shoot in USPSA have been doing it for decades when engaging most targets. Red dots don't start having any advantage over irons to make up for their disadvantages until you get past the distances using a flash sight picture is reasonable at.

  53. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    This whole video was fine and reasonable until he starting whining about holsters.

    >its a bucket on their hip

    Soiled it. Safariland 6k series are the god tier standard all others try to achieve.

  54. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    This thread feels really close to the slingshot method vs simply using the slide release arguing.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      There's no argument to be had, slingshot method is correct.
      It's called a slide stop, not slide release.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I doubt that you even own a gun, and if you do, you didn't own it before 2013 so your comment is invalid.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Using the slide release is literally simpler.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No such thing as a slide release.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Don't be an UMM AKSHULLY fag, this isn't clips vs mags.

  55. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It is funny how ever since that mass shooting PrepHole acts like if you don't have a pistol red dot then you will never hit anything beyond 1 yard

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      nice strawman also
      >implying rds debates haven't been happening since practically the introduction
      lol you fucking tourist

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You're right, I've been a tourist here for almost 14 years now

  56. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Red dots are a fad
    Polymer guns are a fad
    Magazines for ammunition are a fad
    Pistols have been figured out since then 1800s just practice more

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >burst barrels
      >wimpy calibers
      >complicated to manufacture jacketed bullets

      Smokeless powder is a fad, Maxim Machine Guns handle blackpowder just fine.

  57. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Never tried a red dot on a handgun but they make so much difference on a long gun I can't imagine why they wouldn't work on a handgun

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's the exact opposite use in a way. If you try looking at the dot (on a pistol) it seriously fucks your use of it. It also puts your hand in a lower position which, depending on the height of your dot, means slightly different muscle memory. I actually agree that it isn't easy to jump over to red dots if you're used to irons. However, once you've trained up the new muscle memory a bit their advantages become clear.
      You still need irons for back-up.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        > However, once you've trained up the new muscle memory a bit their advantages become clear.
        And this is what the naysayers will never understand. Red dots offer advantages, but they need some training to fully take advantage of. Their only drawback is going to be some increase in expense and bulk. If neither of these are an issue for you, it's a no-brainer.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >And this is what the naysayers will never understand. Red dots offer advantages, but they need some training to fully take advantage of. Their only drawback is going to be some increase in expense and bulk. If neither of these are an issue for you, it's a no-brainer.
          As an RDS-enjoyer, I do think though this is one think proponents have legitimately overdone. In my genuinely humble opinion RDS need MORE, not less, training to get really good at. It's not crazy excessive training or anything, and I think it's well worth it in the end if as you say one isn't worried about the size issue.

          But I've definitely seen lots of "oh if you're a beginner RDS is easier" and I think that's backwards. Maybe RDS makes certain kinds of beginner mistakes easier to see, but I don't think it takes less training or work to build up the right muscle memory. They're pro tools not beginner shortcuts, which hasn't been what marketing or a lot of "influencers" were pushing. Or even people who really have gotten good always acknowledge. "I'm so much better with my red dot vs my irons" fine, after how many hours of training? For people willing to put in the time and are really in it for the personal challenge and hobby/competitive aspects etc that's fine.

          But for the market of people who might fire a few times a year and otherwise have the bare minimum for very close range last resort self-defense in an urban/suburban environment they really are probably better off just using irons.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >which hasn't been what marketing or a lot of "influencers" were pushing
            because its the current fad. its the thing being pushed. its in style which means you are a fag for not consuming the current trend.
            the technology is here to stay but the shilling and is obviously fake.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      they require near perfect presentation on the draw each time. on a rifle this is easy because you have 3-4 points of contact (handguard, pistolgrip, shoulder and cheek) that make this easy.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      What the other anons said. Rifles require more precision because they are used at longer distances. Precision is much less of a factor in pistol shooting, particularly defensive shooting. Red dots are certainly more precise than irons, but that benefit doesn’t outweigh its negatives when talking about carry guns.

  58. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I agree. I think a red dot is really only beneficial on a full-size accurate fun range gun for longer distance precision shooting.

    Some anon here bought a spare Mark 23 slide, had it milled for a red dot, and I want to do that. That's what a red dot is for, my man.

  59. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Red dots have their advantages. That being said, they look gay, and I will never install one on a pistol for that reason.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I agree. i swear they are designed to look like mall ninja shit. this applies to newer guns too.

  60. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I can't be assed with them on standard pistols, I've gotten too good with irons at this point. There are exceptions though, say a G40 or heavy revolver in a hunting setup (.357/.44 mags). On a normal or especially compact pistol is just dead weight and something to snag on my clothing.

  61. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    to iron sights isn't instantaneous, people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.

    ....if I'm using the dot for aiming, what's the problem here?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      if you dont find the dot immediately you are supposed to switch to irons.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Why aren't you finding the dot immediately? If I can train myself to find my irons immediately, what's stopping me from doing the same with the dot?

  62. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    this thread has devolved to a level of pedantry that makes my head hurt

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The game was rigged from the start.

  63. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    lmao if you don't have a dot, co-witness irons and at least 3 lasers (grip, rail, and guiderod).

  64. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Let me guess. The X9 can't be milled for an optics cut due to the firing pin channel?

  65. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >If you shoot X rounds with irons, you need to shoot X+1 to be proficient with red dots
    Not based on reality based on completely untrained (and trained) troops transitioning to red dots and shooting dramatically better immediately.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Red dots on rifles =/= red dots on pistols. Someone who has a lot of rounds through pistols with irons will normally be worse with the red dot until they get in a good amount of practice.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You're right it's even more of an advantage since the sight radius is garbage.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >m-muh sight radius
          Massively overblown issue at the normal ranges handguns are used at. The muscle memory issues and problem of losing the dot are much bigger problems when going from irons to a red dot on a gun without a stock.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >sight radius
          A non issue that the ranges that handguns are normally used at. If you take a Glock 26 with its .152" wide front sight and 5.4" sight radius, and have the front sight half way out of the rear, you'll only be off by 3 1/4" at 7 yards.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Red dots on rifles =/= red dots on pistols. Someone who has a lot of rounds through pistols with irons will normally be worse with the red dot until they get in a good amount of practice.

      Having gotten very good with pistol irons and resisting pistol red dots, I was worse with them at first. It was exactly when I stopped looking at the dot and shifted focus from sights to targets that I became as accurate with the red dot. The main problem was nobody can hold a red dot steady. With irons at least it looks like you're holding it steady because the rear sight moves with the front sight and the target is slightly out of focus so you don't notice. Then you have this dot and you're looking at it and it's shaking. So you try to fight it shaking and it's really frustrating because you can't. Groups are worse. As soon as you just stop looking at the dots, groups are the same.
      After that you still have to train a slightly different muscle memory so that you're picking up the dot as quick as you do irons. This takes, I don't know 100 presentations? So, after that dots are just better. However, they can still wash out, have the batteries die, the diodes get clogged or just stop working. So you have to have irons that co-witness and know how to use them regardless.

      To me red dots are barely +1 on your dice roll, still an advantage.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        So you didn't understand how to best utilize iron sights before you tried a red dot sight and figured it was better in every situation? And you think people just need to practice more with a red dot to appreciate their advantages?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No, are you saying you're illiterate?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >doesn't know about focusing on the target while using iron sights at handgun ranges
            >thinking being able to focus on the target is some groundbreaking new concept that you need to spend hundreds on a new piece of gear to do

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Do you always spam snarky rhetoricals or are you just acting like a woman for this particular thread?

  66. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    A heart shot CAN knock someone out, or any impact to blood bearing tissue, like the liver, because of sudden blood pressure changes. A more energetic impact increases the likelihood. Boxers have been knocked out from liver punches before.

  67. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >No benefit at less than 10 yards
    True. I have a slide with to sights at all and can still hit close to center of mass at 10yd from slide alignment alone. (fun as fuck by the way)
    >You need get used to finding the dot after firing
    True, but just use the irons. I've seen a red dot with a large circle around it that helps with that, and I think all red dots might have that in the future
    >two handed and one handed and/or other non-ideal positions.
    What the fuck no. I've never had a issue finding the dot even one handed and across different guns.
    >cost
    True, but compared to the price of a gun right now they're affordable to everyone who buys a gun you can mount one on.
    >transition to iron sights isn't instantaneous, people will keep looking for the dot rather than immediately switching to irons.
    Again if you use irons to find it transitioning is not a problem

    >Stuff getting on the lens is bad
    True
    >Stuff getting on the emitter is a disaster
    You just won't have a dot
    >You need to shoot at least 1000 rounds through it
    Boomerism
    >If you take it off you usually have to rezero it
    Holosuns come zeroed out of the box so I don't know how the fuck you would lose zero, and even so you can zero off the irons.
    >That's a bucket not a holster
    Boomerism
    >Comparing it to 40 small and weak
    What the fuck.
    >Comparing it to grips, lasers, and adjustable sights.
    People still use all three of those things. They never went away.

    It's so fucking weird how he brought up an example of someone taking 40rd shots with a red dot at a shooter and he's just like, piff whatever. The fact that small pistols can reach out and touch now is huge.

  68. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Red dots make sight radius irrelevant so you can make Glock 34 shots with a Glock 19.
    Why would this boomer fuddy duddy not highlight this point more?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >implying sight radius actually makes that much of a difference outside of competitions

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