>Tempest: The Stealth 6th Generation Fighter That Won’t Ever Fly?
>Writing for Airforce-Technology, Thomas, who quoted Justin Bronk, a senior research fellow for airpower and technology at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), noted that the UK may not have the funds available for the development of such an advanced platform as the Tempest.
The loyal wingman program was also canceled a few weeks ago.
I hope Germany joins, if the Brits give us a fair deal unlike the French we can provide additional funding. British/Italian/German cooperation worked in the past with the Tornado and Eurofighter already.
you can frick right off you russian wiener sucker.
>if the Brits give us a fair deal unlike the French
>fair deal
>Germany require to get everyone know-how and secrets to get on top of them later
That's what "teamplay" mean for Germany.
They didn't even care about defense except as a way to keep their industry running, else they would have accepted other project like the MGCS were France was leaving them the top role.
France never said that, their position is simply that everyone do what they can do best, encouraging this as an European cooperative project where everyone including France need to work together.
Germany's push for everyone to be involved at top level is only so they can obtain France technology for free. Plus it's not like they fear Spain becoming a major competitor later.
we've talked about this in other threads before already. Eurofighter and Tornado were made by consortiums too where everyone was equal, UK was fine with it, Italy was fine with it, Spain was fine with it, Germany was fine with it. Only France can't accept not being the leader. That's why the German ministry of defense openly questioned FCAS now. You said France can go ahead and do FCAS on its own, I say do it, if UK doubts it can fund Tempest on its own, I'm sure France can do it with a smaller economy and defense budget.
I definitely wasn't part of those discussions but I can imagine you repeating that disinformation.
The Tornado was almost a century ago and a result of mutually exclusive design goal. Nowadays the Tornado only remain for NATO mission.
The problem with Eurofighter was that others didn't accept the European country who have carrier would want a carrier-capable fighter. That's all there was to it. Since the others weren't willing to accept compromise France decided to show they can make their own carrier-capable fighter and the result is the Rafale, quite superior to the Eurofighter and more cost-effective than the F35 who is the definition of overcost.
France can do FCAS on their own, they wait because France is in fact a teamplayer who want it to be an European project and naturally know it will cost less that why.
Meanwhile Germany still only care for their own industries and they are so weak willed they'll rather fall to US anti-europe lobbying than make a maritime patrol aircraft based on their own Airbus.
Germany participation to Tempest is just to push France (who really want it to be European) to give away their IP.
Then surprise surprise! the US denied the Eurofighter & alternative for carrying the nuclear deterrence mission to force Germany to buy F35.
>UK doubts it can fund Tempest on its own
UK economy was weaker than they believed BEFORE brexit, they were never the superpower they believe to be and they rely on Big Brother America to fund their defense industry, Tempest might be them realizing they'll be eaten alive if they are entirely dependent on the F35.
France defense budget is higher than the UK but unlike them France's army cover everything (even if on a smaller scale).
>France defense budget is higher than the UK
>UK def. Budget: $68.4bn
>French def Budget: $56.6bn
Looks alot smaller to me.
>but unlike them France's army cover everything (even if on a smaller scale).
Not sure what this means, but the UK military covers a much wider scale of warfare than France, has a bigger Navy, two carriers and much much better logistics.
I find other numbers.
>UK def. Budget:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/military-spending-defense-budget
>French def Budget:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/military-spending-defense-budget
I'll only concede they are basically equal save a last-minute change in budget
https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_France_vs_United_Kingdom
(strange they say UK have only one carrier but list 2 when you click through, they must only count ship-class)
>Not sure what this means, but the UK military covers a much wider scale of warfare than France,
At most they are equal and the UK is much more dependent on US or EU-produced equipments while France is among the biggest arms exporters.
No surprise the UK put money on navy but they wouldn't have carrier-based fighter anymore if not for the F35B, while France have their own CATOBAR carrier plus helicarriers, can produce their own attack helicopter and still possess through Europe a GPS constellation, new kind of spy satellite...
Essentially France built the minimum of everything they needed.
Cmon bro, your numbers goes to 2019 for the UK and 2018 for France and you want to declare a cope truce that they are equal because recently the UK dramatically increased its budget compared to France?
Let's look at the facts,
1. The UK to date has spent way way more on Defence than France
2. The UKs current defence budget mogs the French one
3. https://youtu.be/6OHyKSuJupE watch from the 50s the UK outstanding France consistently to date with only a few years France being ahead then dropping dramatically behind.
>Armed forces.eu
Is a terrible source, it quotes France as having 400 leclercs which it doesn't. 222 are ready the rest are in storage, the UK has 227 Challengers with another 180 also in storage but this isn't taken into account. Don't use that site it's a trash spin off of global firepower.
>Carrier and F35
Having two ramp carriers is superior to one nuke carrier
Having F35 is superior to the Rafale
>Heli carriers
UK has those also
>Home built attack helicopters
Eurotiger is dogshit, the UK operates the Apache which is a much, much better platform
>New spy satelite
Yeh cool, but you lack ISR planes E7 wedgetails and RC135 have dominated in Ukraine right now, also the UK had to provide alot of intelegence for France in Mali with its sentinel aircraft.
>France built minimum of everything they needed
Which they didn't because they wouldn't have had to use the RAF C17s in Mali, CAR and Niger and the RAF Chinooks for 3 years also in Mali
France has 40 more Nukes than the UK and a better domestic arms manufacturing capacity, that's about it really.
I see your video and I declare it good enough to revise my judgment, but I won't say mog because of the nature of military equipment a country need to renew/modernize their equipments so really they've been equal at best.
The point rest that France doctrine is to have the minimal amount of everything and the UK produce far less on its own.
>Don't use that site it's a trash spin off of global firepower.
I agree this error is unforgivable, but your information is also outdated UK reduced the number of operational tank to 148 (222 for France).
>Having two ramp carriers is superior to one nuke carrier
Aircraft capable of ramp take-off have less range and less payload, UK wish they spent the money for Catobar-capable carrier so they could avoid the F35B. France really should have built another carrier.
>Having F35 is superior to the Rafale
Nice joke, I really pity the UK at least they understood their error and are working on the Tempest.
>Eurotiger is dogshit, the UK operates the Apache which is a much, much better platform
It is late in its modernization (blame Germany being cheap again) but it's a difference of doctrine, speed versus flying tank. The Apache is more like the russian Havoc (except with modern up to date electronic and not soviet shit)
>AWACS/AEW&C
France have those, they just aren't producing them themselves, neither the UK.
We can also talk of Maritime Patrol aircraft.
>they wouldn't have had to use the RAF C17s in Mali, CAR and Niger and the RAF Chinooks for 3 years also in Mali
France have A400M and their own transport helicopter but I agree they are lacking in heavy strategic lift because it really isn't part of their minimum, seriously.
Also what you listed is US bought equipment, good things the US provide a heavy-lift copter or the next ones the list would be Russian or European.
>France has 40 more Nukes than the UK and a better domestic arms manufacturing capacity, that's about it really.
Someone else would call that a cope.
Thanks for the concession on budgets, let's keep going.
>info outdated 148 v 222
Wrong, today 227 CR2 are in service. 148 are to be upgraded in the future (2027)
>2 carriers vs 1
So yeh you agree two is better than one
>F35 v Rafale
No one's dog fighting anymore, bvr go brr
>Apache like Havoc
The Havoc is a terrible copy of the Apache pls, also it is leagues ahead of the Eurotiger.
>ISR
I think France only has the old E3 which we retired to be replaced with E7s and France doesn't have a comparison for the RC135.
>Sounds like a cope
Not really I gave you the things France has that the UK doesn't, also you have two nuclear delivery methods vs our one.
Imagine playing world power with 148 tanks!
Sometimes too much is a bad thing
Don't worry, I still know you are wrong.
>Wrong, today 227 CR2 are in service. 148 are to be upgraded in the future (2027)
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/uk-to-reduce-operational-challenger-2-tank-fleet
>the remaining 79 vehicles in the UK inventory will be mothballed and used for spares.
>So yeh you agree two is better than one
Two glorified helicopter-carrier of lesser quality.
France have 1 catobar-carrier and 3 heli-carrier
>No one's dog fighting anymore, bvr go brr
F35 remain utter shit while the Rafale might as well be the best aircraft in the world without gimmick
>Apache pls, also it is leagues ahead of the Eurotiger.
Doctrine difference, we need to see them in action in similar condition and compare cost-efficiency
thought it would need to be the modernized Eurotiger, current one are missing features
>I think France only has the old E3 which we retired to be replaced with E7s
Yes, likely waiting for AFSC and it might not be another big carrier but a system of system.
>and France doesn't have a comparison for the RC135.
They do but it's not a large airliner, it's small Beechcraft Super King Air 350.
>Not really I gave you the things France has that the UK doesn't, also you have two nuclear delivery methods vs our one.
You treat that as if domestic manufacturing of most of your weapons right as you want them was a details and not a game changer. The reason France don't have a big army is because it chose to only produce the minimum.
>Two glorified helicopter-carrier of lesser quality.
>France have 1 catobar-carrier and 3 heli-carrier
Are you saying the CdG is not only on par with a QE, but better?
Yes my British friend, thought the two surprisingly start from similar design since Thales worked on standardizing
In what way? It carries fewer planes, has double the crew, much smaller, radar systems, lower sortie rates, slower. They did not start from a similar design, you are thinking about the PA2 which was based off of the QE.
Hey now, check your data. The CdG is faster at normal cruising speed (plus nuclear propulsion) and a bit more fighters than the CE despite being smaller. Of course it carry far less helicopters since France have Mistral-class for that.
The crew are the same once you take into account the aircrew. Still expect more efficiency on the QE due to size.
The radar system does seem inferior but that's because the same radar system as QE is one used on Horizon-class frigate.
I do want your data on the sortie rate because to see if it's only the F35B or also the helicopter.
>you are thinking about the PA2 which was based off of the QE.
My bad, I do wonder what they kept of those standardization works.
>Hey now, check your data
I have, I'm right.
>The CdG is faster at normal cruising speed
But slower flank speed, so it's slower
>a bit more fighters than the CE despite being smaller
It can fit more jets of the same size despite having a smaller hangar and smaller deck? The CdG can carry 30 Rafael at non-surge. The QE can carry 24 in the hangar alone.
>I do want your data on the sortie rate because to see if it's only the F35B or also the helicopter.
It references fixed wing, but doesn't state it, so I think it's safe to assume F-35s.
I don't get why it's a big deal to admit the bigger more advanced carrier is better.
I just demonstrated your data was wrong or misleading.
>flank speed
That you can't use for any significant of time without blowing the QE engines, the British were essentially pulling a stunt.
While the CdG can even refuel frigate with jet fuel if needed.
>It can fit more jets of the same size despite having a smaller hangar and smaller deck?
QE don't store F35 in the helicopter area, are you going to against against all 36 max figure?
Only reason the French didn't reach the upper limit yet is because they keep selling their own Rafale and the carrier Rafale are low priority now
>It references fixed wing, but doesn't state it, so I think it's safe to assume F-35s.
Provide the source because I clearly can't trust you.
The QE is more recent but that's about it, both QE-class are huge waste of potential. Glorified Helicoter-carrier really
They could have gone with the catobar design and then I would likely have been impressed because it would be carrying F35C and other planes with more range. If even it moved the helicopters to one dedicated carrier then their airwing would be on par with US carrier.
>I just demonstrated your data was wrong or misleading
You haven't.
>Faster means cruise spread not flank speed
That's cope, you can easily flip that into faster means the the fleet with the fastest slowest ship. You are avoiding the truth so you can spin your narrative.
>QE don't store F35 in the helicopter area
They also travel with less planes then they can carry, this isn't something immutable. As I said the CdG is designed for 30 fixed-wing jets, which is lower than the QE. Yes it can surge but so can the QE, the only issue with that is the QE's larger deck and hangar which means its carry capacity is greater. I don't understand how you dispute this.
>Source
Babwiener, I don't have a link on hand but goggle is your friend. Why can't you trust me? I've not lied, I've told you the truth. The QE is faster, the QE can carry more planes, the QE has a greater sortie rate and is the better carrier.
>Queen Elizabeth
>CATOBAR
I could see the Tempest as a carrier-based fighter, kino
Listen here you dumb French c**t you have been proven wrong and admitted your wrong over and over, France is a stinking pile of shit thats gash at war
> but your information is also outdated UK reduced the number of operational tank to 148 (222 for France).
Incorrect, it's 227 and has been for ages. 148 is the number being upgraded and even that is changing.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/challenger-3-upgrade-includes-three-phases-but-amm/
227 Challenger 3s listed to be built.
>Aircraft capable of ramp take-off have less range and less payload
Except F-35B will outrange a Rafale M off deck. It'll do 550nm with a heavy payload, and bringing most of that back as well. See pic related. Rafale M meanwhile was confirmed by the French Air Force themselves to have a shit takeoff limit:
https://sldinfo.com/2011/10/the-libyan-air-operation-a-french-perspective/
"For example, with the Rafale from land, you can take off with two cruise missiles, as from the carrier it’s only one. The air force Rafale can take off from the land with six 250 kilos bombs – from the carrier, it only was four. You’re closer but you bring less ammunitions"
> but it's a difference of doctrine, speed versus flying tank
Thats a vague nebulous statement that basically means nothing. Apache has and always does shit all over the Tiger. It's why many customers are switching back to it.
>We can also talk of Maritime Patrol aircraft.
Where the UK has an objectively better platform for it in the modern P-8.
>challenger 2
148 will remain but I see no change to the plan to mothball the remaining 79. At most I'll consider that storage soviet-style with the French doing the same.
>Except F-35B will outrange a Rafale M off deck
Only without any droptank, carrier Rafale have a combat radius of 1000NM, 3 tank, penetration load
F35B is 505NM STOVL+ internal load
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/FY_2019_SARS/20-F-0568_DOC_32_F-35_SAR_Dec_2019_Full.pdf
F35 could really use some droptank
>confirmed by the French Air Force themselves
That's a vague comparison between the Land and Carrier version, the Rafale carry very big load
Rafale M: 9,500 kg
F35B : 6,800 kg
F35C : 8,160 kg
>Tiger
Difference of doctrine for attack helicopter are pretty obvious: Apache are flying tank, paper Tiger do quick pass hoping to never be hit.
It's clear the current Tiger standard are not up to the Apache. Saudi really wanted a lot of them before cancelling, I suspect it was to pressure the US to make a better offer.
>Maritime Patrol aircraft.
Sold by the US and the French no longer wait for Germany to build the next generation.
There are multiple projects for adding drop tanks to various F-35 models. Just a matter of time until someone actually fields them.
>CR2
Again the number is now 227 so you can cry and hope the will become 148 but for now the UK has more Tanks available than France. Its also used them before somthing France never has.
>ISR
Sentinels were retired there last mission was Mali, France wasn't capable of its own ISR at that time. E3 is nice we have retired ours and are waiting for the E7 a much better aircraft. ATL6 is dogshit compared to a P8 I can't belive you even mentioned that shit heap lol. CRES Sat's sounds like a big cope to me bro, you don't have an RC135 that's why the US and UK are the main suppliers of Intel to Ukraine, not France.
>Nukes
The UK upped its cap to 260 in March last year. Having move gravity nukes deployed isn't much of an achievment really especially given the cdg spends more than half the year in port.
>Frances performance in Ukraine
Lmao you are thee 2nd biggest homosexuals in the whole conflict, missed the ball on the invasion, shit yourself sending weapons, sent some basic trash, then came up with the cope statement "biggest supplier since 2014!" Lol. Your a European wide embarresment no wonder you ran away from Mali.
I'm sorry the UK having two carriers upsets you and you cannot afford to build two more and have settled to again only build 1 (one) with a mosque tower lol.
Frogs it's OK we'd still be willing to save you again and take care of your refugee leader.
It is not a competition with France though, France is in the EU. The UK is not in the EU. The UK got destroyed by Russia when they sold Brexit via Farage to the British public. The British conservative cabinet is 50% Russian agents trying to get northern Ireland going again so it will tie up the British Army, the Russians are sitting in the house of Lords, financially own Brexit and the Conservative party and also own the Unions and the far right in the UK which has a presence in the armed forces. The Russians own the socialist workers etc etc, they own the transport unions. The country is fricked and until British sorts out its Russian subversion. Britain can't exist successfully economically outside the EU (neither could France it is NOT a competition). Discussing heavy weapons spending or the joke idea of Britain building a world class state of the art jet is complete horseshit. Britain needs to hang 50 spies and agents a year for 10 years.
not him, but
>I think France only has the old E3 which we retired to be replaced with E7s and France doesn't have a comparison for the RC135.
French Awacs are all upgraded t E-3F MLU block 40-45 standard, equal to the USAF E-3G block 40-45 (block 40 are ex-E3B, block 45 are ex E-3C).
Only countries field block 40-45 E-3s: the USA and France. NATO and other countries only field NE-3A block 1.
Falcon Archange is coming, while RAF Sentinels were retired in 2021.
France keeps 18 ATL2 updated to Standard 6, they carry 6 Mk46 internally despite lacking external hardpoints, while a P-8 carries 5 internally. ATL2s are also engaged in ISR missions.
CERES satellites are now in orbit and mapping every single fixed or moving radar on the planet. That's why there are 3 of them flying in formation. Like a RC-135, but space-based.
>France has 40 more Nukes than the UK
65 more, + way more deployed.
FAS report:
>https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/
>F-35B will outrange a Rafale M off deck. It'll do 550nm with a heavy payload, and bringing most of that back as well. See pic related. Rafale M meanwhile was confirmed by the French Air Force themselves to have a shit takeoff limit
Rafale: 5850l internal (4700kg) + 4000l external with 2 tanks (or 3213kg) = 7913kg.
F-35B: 13500lb internal = 6124kg
29% more fuel in a Rafale M.
The F135 doesn't burns 29% less fuel per kN than a pair of M88.
21 tons limit is due to safety during hook arrest.
Combat radius for the F-35B, according to the Royal Navy, is 450nm.
That's 835km.
>https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/lightning-f35b/
french mod mentions "up to 1600km tactical combat radius"
Rafale M has "up to 1600km tactical radius"
>https://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/ministere-armees/Fiche%20LPM%20-%20Rafale%20Marine.pdf
Although with 2 2000l tanks instead of 3, it may be less. I'll give you 1/3 (I'm generous). That's still 1066km. A fitting number.
Anyway
>they wait because France is in fact a teamplayer who want it to be an European project and naturally know it will cost less that why.
LMAO GTFO. If France had its way Odessa would literally be in Russian hands right now via the Mistrals and the entire war might have been lost. You're traitors at worst and maliciously selfish at best. Thankfully the US can bully you into submission on sanctions.
>blahblah
Meanwhile France was the prime provider of weapons to Ukraine between 2014 and 2022 in total value of signed contracts. But you won't mention that fact.
"traitors" "maliciously selfish".
Topkek I hope we frogs actually become like this so you can tell the difference and ask for a reset of relations like the poles did. xD
The mistrals? top tier?
Lmfao these ships are civvie grade multirole haulers designed by guys who had smoked spliffs made from IKEA furniture beforehand. They're way less of a superweapon than anyone seems to be thinking. Practical, sure, but light and unprotected.
Many russian admirals were happy they couldn't get them.
>The novichok is kicking
How's BoJo doing right now bong? I know you're angry cause you voted for him and he's got ousted despite having a full stock of "I've got to save Ukraine by myself!" cards.
The difference is Zelensky was calling Macron.
While BoJo was calling Zelensky.
Cheers bong.
xD
>Only France can't accept not being the leader.
France was buying around 330 aircrafts in the original 4 then 5 countries JV, much more than anybody else, because the french needed a carrier-borne version of the aircraft too.
Others had Harriers and didn't see the need for it.
In the same vein others had Tornados for ground attack and wanted a predominantly air to air asset. The french wanted a multirole.
The french also wanted to keep SNECMA into business, so they proposed a dual engine solution: clients would be able to chose between a french or british engine. This was unacceptable for Rolls Royce.
However SNECMA has already began to work on the M88 engine, and had a few working modules in 1982.
RR began working on the XG-40 in 1984.
In 1985 the french were told to jettison their engine. The deal was cut.
Later, the M88 flew onboard the Rafale A demonstrator in 1988, while the EJ200 flew onboard an IPA Typhoon in 1998, 10 years later, replacing the Rb.199.
The dual engine model, where clients chose between two engines, was in turn defended years later by the british on the F-35, with the GE/RR F136 contending alongside the P&W F135.
Then the british engine was cancelled by the Pentagon to achieve "costs savings" despite the screams of the british, who by no means stopped buying F-35s.
Karma is a b***h, and bongs are cucks.
So:
>no carrier version
>jet is optimized for air combat, lacks endurance and multirole capabilities
>jet will have to be supplemented with F-18s in the case of France
>french engine maker can frick off
= bye bye
Watch this story being told by the people who designed, built, and flew the Rafale:
Part 1:
Part 2:
>we've talked about this in other threads before already.
No.
You've been spewing bullshit about this affair for nearly 35 years, including 20 years on the internet.
Very different.
>Dassault Smegma
>SMEGMA
>jet is optimized for air combat, lacks endurance and multirole capabilities
>source: my ass
>I hope Germany joins, if the Brits give us a fair deal unlike the French we can provide additional funding. British/Italian/German cooperation worked in the past with the Tornado and Eurofighter already.
Top fricking kek from outer space.
>new Typhoon radar is abandoned because of lack of export deals
Daily reminder this is the fault of Germany which is currently blocking a sale of 48 Typhoons to Saudi Arabia as well as the sale of spare parts to this country.
>https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-saudi-arms-idUSKCN1QH2S9
>https://sldinfo.com/2019/04/germanys-embargo-on-saudi-arabia-and-the-limits-of-european-arms-cooperation/
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926577/5billion-jet-deal-shot-Saudi-Arabia-murder.html
>https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-06-22-ampel-wants-to-review-the-extension-of-the-arms-export-ban-to-saudi-arabia.BJZt0yVgq9.html
Yeah guys bring Germany in LOL
>loyal wingman is straight up canceled
Mosquito has been replaced with Boeing's loyal wingman, to cut costs. It's actually not stupid in the context of AUKUS.
>no new money sources for Tempest
Same problem when they cancelled FCAS Demonstration Program, which was the UCAV they were supposed to do with the french, which prompted a french departure.
Anyway, the UK and Germany will just have to buy more F-35s I guess. as everybody else.
Well, everybody except the frogs of course.
>>I hope Germany joins, if the Brits give us a fair deal unlike the French we can provide additional funding. British/Italian/German cooperation worked in the past with the Tornado and Eurofighter already.
>Top fricking kek from outer space.
Tornado and Eurofighter are decent aircraft, what are you talking about?
>Daily reminder this is the fault of Germany which is currently blocking a sale of 48 Typhoons to Saudi Arabia as well as the sale of spare parts to this country.
Saudi Arabia is a country where people are executed for witchcraft and the ruler has people strangled and chopped up into pieces.
>Anyway, the UK and Germany will just have to buy more F-35s I guess. as everybody else.
they can buy F-35 and work on an indigenous aircraft simultaneously. Germany and the UK used to use F-4 in the past too and still worked on the Tornado.
>what are you talking about?
It's about
>"I hope Germany joins, if the Brits give us a fair deal unlike the French we can provide additional funding."
Which is a bloody joke.
>Saudi Arabia is a country where people are executed for witchcraft and the ruler has people strangled and chopped up into pieces.
Who the hell cares?
The USA is a country where children are groomed into becoming "trans" by pedos for their sexual enjoyment, where you can be gunned down when you go to school, where they don't have voter ID because a piece of paper with your name on it is too high tech for the country of Neil Armstrong, where you can send back your adopted child if you don't like it, and where abortion is either almost impossible or authorized up to 9 months.
It's the most violent degenerate country on earth, and a shell of its former self.
Yet everybody buys and sells weapons from them.
Rheinmetal even tried to hide the fact they were selling bombs to the KSA by hiding behind an italian subsidiary LMAO.
The german hypocrisy is simply sickening.
Plus, do you even know about Khasshogi's life before he became a "journalist"? The dude spent years telling young muslims to join jihad. Then suddenly he became a "journalist" so all was pardonned.
Frick this they should have ripped him off alive limb by limb.
MBS may be a violent frick. I don't care as long as he's THE WEST's violent frick.
While germans were having their emotional menstruation, the US sold 84 F-15SA to the KSA.
Did that stop germans from buying the F-35? KEK
The Eurofighter was sold to Qatar which is no better about human rights, even worse in the case of terrorism funding.
Koweit is shitty on freedom too.
Yet there was no problems for Germany?
Really makes me think.
The reality is Germany wanted to curbstomp the UK after Brexit by attacking their biggest arms export customer.
And now, you believe the brits will welcome Germany with open arms on the Tempest?
Oh wait, they're so cucked they may do so anyway.
you know Rheinmetall and the German government aren't the same thing, right?
You know one still has to obey the other to sell weapons to somebody, right?
Translation: if Rheinmetal kept providing the KSA after the initial outrage about Yemen and Khashoggi, the german government was behind it, and is therefore hypocritical.
Now, do all german politicians think the same regarding exports? No. But they still haven't unblocked the sale of 48 additional Typhoons to Saudi Arabia either, while they have no problems with other countries that are at least as shitty as Saudi Arabia.
Yeah we guessed you guys love smegma.
Rumor says 1 kg of premium smug smegma from Dassault's CEO Trappier is offered with each Rafale sold.
>LOOK AT MY EDGE! I AM THE EDGE LORD!
Grow up and chill out.
The entire project would get a completely different trajectory. It wouldn't be 'Tempest' anymore.
Bongs fricked themselves economically when the Russian agent farage orchestrated leaving the EU.
A lot of movements have been compromised by the damn Russians. Fortunately the invasion revealed a great many of them to us.
Yup. Watch the UK trade unions start striking. Most of the European populist right and left are Russian patsies. Brexit was a Russian psyop that played perfectly to British xenophobia. The Owners of the daily express should be in court for treason
>Owners of the daily express
Daily Express / Sunday Express
Daily Mirror / Sunday Mirror
Daily Record / Sunday Mail (Scotland)
Daily Star / Daily Star Sunday
Irish Daily Star
The Sunday People
Western Mail / Wales on Sunday (Wales)
this protocols of the inebriated vatniks of siberia drivel just makes russia look much cooler than it deserves
Russians excel at spreading bullshit because they suck at actual war.
They've got all these countries (Africa, Middle East, etc.) believing Russia is "Muh Anti-Colonialist Power" when Russia is basically trying to rebuild the fricking Soviet Union.
Bunch of pathetic saps.
Very much this. Take a look at the Hindu targeted spam 'news' on youtube, these crazy prajeets don't get this insane pro Russian crap from nowhere, the vatniks spend a lot of energy spraying it there
Another reason we need to crush Russia in Ukraine.
I want to rub the failure to support Ukraine, the country being fricking invaded, in all these Third World countries' faces.
I want to see them have to eat their words just to get a fricking audience with Ukraine, a massive supplier of their food.
I really want to see what the internet and the globe could be like without Russia. Really their population don't deserve any forgiveness for the shit they have been spreading in other nations for 50 years whether the new bullshit or the old commie crap. Farage should be locked up for the traitor he is.
>lock up everyone who causes trouble for the oligarchs
this is how you become russia lol
True but there is a level where someone like farage or someone like lepen needs to be shown to the public for what they are, they are simply Russian agents.Nothing more. Go look at their statements regarding anything to do with Russian foreign policy from 2010-22. May as well be radio moscow and leftists like Clare Daly are no different.
There needs to be concrete proof Farage is a traitor or he's just a martyr.
>There needs to be concrete proof Farage is a traitor or he's just a martyr.
I'd bet British intelligence has hard evidence on him
If Russia loses in Ukraine, it will pretty damn easy to subvert Russia, lol.
Just bash them over the head with the defeat. Putin won't be able to spin it.
>Russians excel at spreading bullshit because they suck at actual war.
And because it's much cheaper. The infrastructure (social networks, media) is already in place, they just need to pay for third-worlders and spam accounts to propagate their particular message.
It is actually the one area that Russia could legitimately claim to be a power, especially the UK, the UK not the USA was the primary target of Russian intelligence since Stalin and yes they heavily control and influence both the major political parties there, the media, newspapers and trade unions and have for a long time, their subversion efforts in this day and age include brexit, the yellow vests, afd, golden dawn, the new ira/irsp, the Corsican nationalist movement, and most of the hard left like clare daily from Ireland. Funny how Nigel Farage was so pro Russians position in Ukraine in 2014 hey?
Irony of ironies, it made Russians think their ACTUAL military was somehow worth a damn and they tripped over the finish line.
All that subversive power looks pretty pathetic when your actual ability to project force is a total joke.
All communism ever was was a way to weaken and divide your opponents for a coup and a stabilisation intervention from moscow. Marianne le penn is a traitor, so is farage, so were both the leaders of the capitol riots and blm
I'm tired of Russia subverting us. Can we please subvert them BACK already?
Putin needs the military and security services to survive. Subvert them.
Yeah. They are probably fueling Catalonia and Scotland as well, Brexit was only one of the most successful attempts.
>Yeah. They are probably fueling Catalonia and Scotland as well
Absolutely and it is important to understand that whatever the merits of e.g. Scottish Independence or e.g lowing fuel tax in France, you can't have healthy politics with the Russians trying to try anything and everything into a riot (see corscia, northern Ireland, paris, london). They do it in the USA to, a bunch of hires in Ghana and Nigeria paid by Russia to spam BLM riot stuff at the USA were shut down
Russia is a threat to us. Even if its military power collapses in Ukraine, it still is going to try subversion.
We need to subvert it back.
Yep, well said. Thinking Russia is on your side because they are propping up a movement you genuinely agree with is for morons, because the next day they are going to support the opposite side to increase instability in general.
Subversion is ultimately playing both sides to cause maximum discontent.
The ultimate "Frick You" to Russia is Russia losing to Ukraine.
This is very true, and I think a bigger counter for it would be increasing awareness that the really obnoxious morons on the other side have a surprisingly high chance of being russian shills. It'd be very hard to pull off, unfortunately, because there's political advantage in smearing the other side by association with john from texas oblast who believes that 5g towers are gay mind control lasers or shaniqua from new york oblast who wants the school curriculum updated to say isaac newton was a trans woman born in botswana.
I was always skeptical of Tempest. Too many claims of what it will do vs actual proof of those capabilities maturing and developing. That said, I hope they find the funding for it from somewhere in the coming years, which I'm hopeful about, after the Ukrainian situation.
The EU was always sort of a catch 22 for the British economy after Thatcher decided that having a trade defecit was based, actually, and that money moving was enough to keep an economy ticking over. The slow growth in incoming inequality is proof that its bullshit, though. If we had an economic plan for actually building up after leaving the EU, I'd be 100% for it, but that wasn't on the ticket. Cameron just wanted to secure his position in the EU, and threw the vote out to make it happen. Neither pro nor anti EU groups did their due diligence as statesmen.
Any plan to build up outside the EU could also have been done inside it, just now it costs more and there's a huge trade bloc that will try to outcompete us on anything they want to. Fact is they were never going to invest in anything because they're all free marketers who think the economy should build itself. They barely ever intervene to even keep defence companies or critical industry British owned.
>Any plan to build up outside the EU could also have been done inside it
maybe, maybe not
the government invests in lots of things, all of which happen to funnel said investments into tories' pockets
The EU ties your hands on how effective those investments can be by forcing you to compete with more mature European industries on level ground. That said, the question is academic because, like I say, noone did their due diligence and noone was ever going to promote a plan that rebuilt British industries. I believe that leaving the EU could be a good thing long term, but it relies on competent government which we don't have and haven't had for over 50 years. But this is /k/, so I'm gonna shut up
we were economically fricked long before brexit
true
>Watch the UK trade unions start striking
i don't think that's a fair implication
UK trade unions are just behind French trade unions.
They'd strike if you greeted them wrong at Wal-Mart.
i mean his implication that trade unions are russian puppets is not fair
also, our unions are very neutered these days, and few and far between
The BA unions are striking over a 20% pay cut. They took 10% cut during Covid as a "special measure", their employers took government money and reinstated the 10% for managers and told everyone else it was the "new normal" with a further 10% in inflation coming. Meanwhile the CEO of Birmingham airport got a 49% pay rise because there is no money in the industry apparently.
If you can't legitimately strike over a 20% pay cut you might as well be a slave and have it done with.
there's also the whole "fire and rehire" thing, which is despicable
You really wanna talk about fricking yourself economically, EU boy? We still have free trade with the EU thanks to the “impossible” deal you swore blind we could never get under 3 years of Theresa May when Boris Johnson got it in about a year.
It's a no-tariffs agreement, not a "full" free trade deal.
And Boris (rip) spent the better part of its mandate complaining about the supposedly perfect deal he himself had signed.
Yes, and that’s a) a huge fricking deal, and b) something you chucklefricks said would be impossible. It’s really cute that presume to lecture us on economic decisions, by the way, while using a currency like the euro and having your economic leader facing the choice of betraying the west to Russia or slamming into a wall. Real good job with that.
what a confusing post
literally what are you on about mate
Meds, now.
Militarily, partnering with the UK and US would be by far the best option.
But Brexit complicates things and Germany remains shackled to the French politically.
Those euro projects go nowhere really aside from mergers like KDNS, just buy American honestly
Didn't Sweden, Italy and Japan already join in?
Sweden and Japan aren't part of the fighter program.
Italy did sign a MoU for a fighter but with barely financial commitment.
And UK is cash starving as always
>new Typhoon radar is abandoned because of lack of export deals
>loyal wingman is straight up canceled
>no new money sources for Tempest
lmao European defence industry is a joke
Germany's fault as usual, fricking cucks.
https://hushkit.net/2022/06/26/uk-scraps-mosquito-loyal-wingman-project/
I mean they are retiring planes like the Typhoons T1 despite them having more than half of the designed flight hours left.
Which is going to shorten the life time of the rest of the entire fleet.
The UK cant even make a rifle, so what makes you think they could make a 6th gen fighter after skipping 5th gen?
It was obvious this was always just a corporate welfare program for the UK's failing defense companies.
>the UK's failing defense companies
lol BAE has won ~$20 billion worth of US defense contracts so far this year
The US side of the company.
Money problem could be solved if the both Airbus nations Germany and Spain would join with all the companies which have a long history of working together.
Though all the money and industrial power would change 'Tempest' into something new.
is Spain doubting its participation in FCAS too? Afaik only Germany is. And Spain doesn't participate in FCAS with Airbus Spain, but with Indra. Only German Airbus is involved
Airbus Spain is involved in the fighter development and is pillar leader for the full spectrum stealth pillar
hm, wasn't aware. But Spain still wants to stick with FCAS afaik, so they probably won't join Tempest.
Spain is only part of FCAS because of Germany. France has repeatedly stated that they don't want Spain as main development partner.
cool. Spain was involved with the Eurofighter already too. UK, Italy, Sweden, Japan, and potentially Germany and Spain. That should be enough to come up with a decent aircraft.
Japan seems perfectly willing to do technology development, but it doesn't seem likely they'd accept a jointly developed fighter.
I believe their main tie to Tempest is the engine technology development agreement between Rolls-Royce and Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries (IHI Corp).
They might share in a few more areas too, but I think it'll stop there.
>mtu on engine
dear god
Tempest/F-X with Rolls-Royce/IHI Corp is looking like a much better engine development teamup.
Trying a little too hard here
>Cloud solutions
What solutions? I thought the clouds were just there.
weather control
Ah, trying to catch up to the Amis
Everyone knew the project was dead in the water, despite the bongs shilling it on this board non-stop. There are reports from the UK court of auditors saying the current budget is critically insufficient for Tempest.
At this point is a not a race to develop a new fíghter, both sides are waiting for the rival to crumble and be the winner not because is a winning project but by being the sole survivor
Wtf? How come Europe keep failing without even starting, whereas South Korea already has a working prototype and ready to fly? This is so embarrassing.
the KF-21 isn't nearly as technologically ambitious as the Tempest/FCAS programs
for that matter, why does south korea look so nice and cared-for, while the average UK street is a fricking dump?
>Airbus and Dassault are struggling to reach a mutual agreement on who should take leadership and intellectual rights of its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program.
>In March 2022, Dassault Aviation threatened to pull out of an alliance with Airbus. This was followed by Dassault requesting political intervention to help push the deal forward in July. Failure to resolve the issues between both companies could have severe consequences, either delaying or dissolving plans to collaborate in the production for next generation fighters.
>Dassault or Airbus would find it difficult to produce new aircrafts independently, especially when competing with rival BAE Systems, Tempest – a proposed sixth-generation jet fighter aircraft that is under development in the UK. Multi-governmental support will be important for financing the FCAS and accelerating technological development so it will be able to compete with future aircrafts produced by BAE Systems.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/comment/dassault-airbus-fighter-jet-program/
Realistically one of the options for the UK is to punt for a load of F-35As instead of trying to complete Tempest. Honestly seems like the best option - it's proven, it's got a long development pipeline and the the UK defence industry is hugely involved in it so that covers the domestic industry angle. It's slightly ridiculous how much the UK has invested into the JSF programme only to buy fewer than 100 aircraft.
Is there a clear idea of what 6th gen looks like other than throwing buzzwords around like 'optionally manned' and 'loyal wingmen'? It feels like a bunch of nations are trying to make the F-22 again.
Tempest is an air superiority fighter. F35 is not.
Huge difference in roles.
>UK gives tons of weapons to Ukraine
>America generously donates funds to UK as "Thank you" for actually delivering (unlike fricking GERMANY).
The USA did that by letting the Euro crash against the dollar supporting EU manufacturing exports to the US. The UK has far bigger problems economically since the Russians conned them into leaving the EU
sorry, we can't finish this jet; we pissed all our money away developing a smartphone app for track and trace. that is to say: we gave all the money to contractors with many ties to people in government
imagine my shock
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_Jp_reXoAMzRCT?format=jpg&name=medium
manned aircraft are so 2020
>The loyal wingman program was also canceled a few weeks ago.
The program wasn't cancelled. The specific model they were looking at was. Likely to just be replaced with another or via foreign buy for that component.
People are conflating platform with program.
This is a trash opinion from a literally who writer. Lots of dumb anti tempest stuff ITT but it's nice outside and none of you are worth my time today.
Nice try but France are the one who refused to deliver the Mistrals as soon as Putin demonstrated how irrational he was. Too stupid to even wait before he get top tier equipment, then he would have embarrassed the French.