>take Bakhmut after ~9months of heavy fighting
>Wagner gets virtually wiped out/depleted of manpower in the process
From a strategic standpoint, was Bakhmut actually worth it for the Russians?
>take Bakhmut after ~9months of heavy fighting. >Wagner gets virtually wiped out/depleted of manpower in the process
Of fricking course it wasn't. It had some logistical importance when they were still pushing along the whole front. Then it got memed into the next Stalingrad for literally no reason
A lot of blood is on memes hands.
imo i think ukraine holding bakhmut for purely symbolic reasons was a bad idea on their part. they were basically just sitting ducks for russian arty and they lost a lot of people for no real benefit other than saying they 'held' the city. as the smaller country, they don't have the benefit of near-endless supplies of cannon fodder troops.
As the attacked country, they don't have the benefit of just letting cities get shelled. Holding Bakhmut was preferrable to letting the next city over also get destroyed
Exactly. For Ukraine it was better to let Bakhmut get destroyed instead of Kramatorsk and Slavyansk.
>"the insignificant campsite known as ACK*mhut"
Yes
He survived
>rockets cooking off after the cab has been perforated by thousands of tungsten shrapnel fragments and the crew has been turned into hamburger meat
kino
>Ball-bearings caused the rocket to cook-off to 1kdeg in under 2 seconds
Looks more like tankbro panicked and tossed them before they cooked-off.
He probably had a hard time doing that with several hundred pieces of tungsten shrapnel in his fricking face.
Airburst artillery is generally meant to take out infantry, not armor. EFP's are used when you want to cut through steel.
Even so, it's a rocket artillery truck, they're not particularly armored to withstand that kind of damage, no way the operators lived.
Dead from the concussive force alone if any doors were open.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/G85Y5RYPQCk
>that truck
>armour
Are you serious? Is my car armoured too?
That shrapnel is tungsten. It was purpose built to shred both personnel and lightly armored vehicles... you know, kind of like that Grad.
>itt, what is friction heat
>itt, what are sparks created by high-velocity collissions between metal objects
>armor
No such thing on a BM-21, you absolute moron. That roof is there to keep out rain, nothing more. Artillery shrapnel goes through that the same it goes through a Lada.
Not to mention that arty frag at this distance and strenght is gonna swiss cheese the top of anything short of an MBT.
Rockets are returning home under their own power
>insignificant
>holding it for a year + killed 80% of all of Russia Army, allowed them to bomb most of their front line oil, and gain tons of foreign aid
>they still continue to hold it demoralizing russia so much they have to lie about taking it
>this is bad
huh?
They basically eliminated Wagner as an active force in the war, and Wagner was probably the most effective offensive formation russia possessed. Absolutely worth it
The PMCs get preferential recruitment of people that ought to form their regular army NCO core; attriting them in a strong urban defensive position prevents them from ever being redistributed for that NCO reorganization purpose as well as making them not available for better uses of combat power. Also keeps attention North of the Crimean landbridge corridor and South/east of the Belgorod incursions. It's the shaping operation's centerpiece. Ukraine's big, but it ain't Russia. Space-For-Time has limits when they're leveling every new settlement they come across.
The French didn’t need to hold Verdun as much it was literally just to waste manpower which in a way worked for both sides
wagner had according to prigozhin himself 85k troops
that's about half as many men russia invaded with back in february 22
and that force is for all practical purposes eliminated
convicts won't be returning to battle in any meaningful capacity, and what's left of the "pros" are pulled back to russia
plus according to ukies wagner was the most effective unit in the entire russian armed forces, they at least managed to capture around 700-800 square kilometers in 6 months, while the rest of the russian forces captured about one fifth of that
Russia still has bakhmut and less prisoners now. How is this negative?
Because Wagner as a company has been functionally wiped out in Ukraine. They barely have enough manpower to continue their business ventures in Africa now. They were an important asset to Russia because they could support MOD/regular army operations in Ukraine without the PR burden of counting their deaths towards “official” KIA records. Now they’re virtually incapable of supporting military operations in Ukraine.
>imagine dying in a who-city just because the memes for your boss-ass
Emptied the prisons of rapists and murders.
Russia has a frick-ton of prisoners in the millions and doesn't care that it's now 20-40K smaller. The convict soldiers was an astounding failure.
Do you have the Wagner patches that said "I don't care about anything, I'm just here for the violence?".
The try-hard edgy shit works fine when you're bullying Africans but collapses when they attack real forces.
>got rid of the worst criminals in a final fashion, using them as assault infantry in a desperate war
>my face when I don't see the issue
>take Bakhmut
gayner couldn't even do that
>>take Bakhmut
anon town is considered "taken" if there's no enemy presense inside it but ukrainians never left their positions in the western part of backhmut
To be fair, they were basically entirely removed from bakhmut proper, the positions the Ukrainians held were on the very outskirts of the town along a highway. Yes technically within the town, but only barely and by a technicality.
Not that it really matters, even if they had retreated 500-1000m further they still have retaken decent chunks of the town since then so even if Russia did at one point in time take "all" of bakhmut, russia started losing it again within days.
>From a strategic standpoint, was Bakhmut actually worth it for the Russians?
The whole battle there was a 3:1 to 5:1 K/D ratio in favor of the Russians due to their overwhelming firepower advantage, of course it was worth it.
Russia critically weakened Ukraine and destroyed countless soldiers who had been earmarked for the current offensive.
It was a masterstroke in strategy that will be studies for decades.
And T-I-G-E-R-S you forgot about those
>The whole battle there was a 3:1 to 5:1 K/D ratio in favor of the Russians
You got the sides reversed Black person
>Can't even read a fricking wikipedia article properly
Just fricking have a nice day already moron
More like 5-10:1 in Ukraine's favour due to their overwhelming advantages in firepower, equipment, trianing, leadership, experience etc. The only "advantage" Russia had was being willing to send tens of thousands of cannonfodder to their deaths to claim a pile of rubble, while the Ukrainians actually cared more about preserving their manpower than holding ground.
Not even remotely, I'm convinced the entire push was 100% out of a propaganda drive given how much importance they put on it. A total waste of lives and resources so that you could claim some sort, any sort, of victory after months of a grinding standstill.
On the Russian side? The thinking is that it was all political. Putin wanted to get all of the Donbass and then claim the war is over, then sue for a ceasefire as his "off-ramp". Frick em.
Yes on the Russian side, it seems totally illogical for them to break themselves on the rock of a basically literally who town for over 9 months for any reason other than some sort of propaganda line. In this case it can double as a political point, but I think the main drive was still legitimately propaganda.
I think at a certain point it was cost-sunk where they just put too much in and have to push through. The other part is that they don't care about Bakhmut per se, just that they wish to push past it and to the areas past it. But the Ukies kept them bottled up there for 9 months.
Supposedly Putin is micro-managing the war which is why you get these very weird illogical decisions like this. Rule #1 of why you shouldn't let random buttholes become unquestioned dictators. I can see Xi doing the same shit.
>Sir. It's been 9 months in the invasion of Taiwan. We've lost 250,000 soldiers trying to take a town of 50,000 just 5km from the coastline of Taiwan. Shouldn't we retreat?
>Xi: Send more conscripts!
>certain
Some areas of the red certain are already in Ukraine control though. Already disproving the "certain" aspect.
>Some areas of the red certain are already in Ukraine control though. Already disproving the "certain" aspect.
this
>On the Russian side? The thinking is that it was all political. Putin wanted to get all of the Donbass and then claim the war is over, then sue for a ceasefire as his "off-ramp". Frick em.
LMAO the cope.
The entire first 2 weeks of the war was all : "WE TAKE KIEV IN 48 HOURS AXAXAXAXAXAX".
And nowadays it's "Just annex Donbas and sue for peace lololol".
Always moving the goalpost. Every week or so.
Stupid Putin got sucked into the war, and now 300,000 young Russians are dead. Why this war? Both peoples are mainly Russians. I believe that the Russian people will free themselves from murderers. Those who rule the country are gangs
Not really. They should have just gone around it. Wagner is out for a long time. Ukrainians were just using it to stall Russians and suck up their troops. It was quite stupid. The Ukrainians will just go around it and force the Russians to pull out.
From a strategic standpoint, was Ukraine actually worth it for the Russians?
let's take stock:
>increase nato spending unilaterally
>re-ignite long cooled anti-russian sentiment among their neighbors
>2 neutral neighbors joining NATO
>primary professional military decimated in 12 months of disastrously pyrrhic fighting
>entire military command structure displayed as inept inefficient and dishonest to their own government
>forced into a subservient bargaining position with china
This is perfectly acceptable costs for a road and rail connection to crimea, some decaying unusable soviet factories, 5 or 6 small cities pounded to rubble and a bunch of rural hamlets.
and that they probably won't even keep the land connection. this whole war will have been to win a ruined Mariupol and the northern half of Luhansk.
Kek, they ain't even getting that. They ain't gonna get to keep Donetsk, Luhansk or Crimea, either.
>2 neutral neighbors joining NATO
Placing Murmansk and all the strategic missiles & sub tending facilities into easily accessible (and interruptible) range
You forgot:
>Being sanctioned out the ass (likely permanently)
>Cut off of western imports (likely permanently)
>Lost Europe as a customer of their main export (likely permanently)
>Lost irreplaceable naval assets
>Weapon stockpiles built across 60 years of the cold war severely depleted
>Billions in foreign currency frozen (never to be seen again)
>Massive brain drain
>Weapon exports tanked due to poor performance (which will cripple their R&D capabilities)
>Negative population growth further exacerbated due to war losses and economic woes
>Labelled a terrorist state
haha, severely depleted?
by the end of this the soviet stockpile will be reduced to dust. 100 year legacy spent in two years
Not to mention
>two decades of "soft power" building gone in a couple months
NATO won't run out of money before Russia does. they'll pour more and more into Ukraine, even if it's just to endlessly fire HIMARS into occupied Russian territory for the next 2 decades
get fricked moron
gets virtually wiped out/depleted of manpower in the process
Source: Reddit Ministry of Defense
https://desuarchive.org/k/search/text/Reddit%20Ministry%20of%20Defense/
Good morning sirs
what's your point
yeah you’re right, wagner just completely pulled out of bakhmut two days after taking it because they all went on vacation 🙂 that’s why you’re not seeing anymore wagner troops in the newest offensive footage!
Opinion on Prigozhin’s daughter?
https://twitter.com/gwarworin/status/1664988119056171011?s=46
does she have down syndrome?
it is worse, she has Prigozhin’s
Worse. She's Russian.
And you say this on the grounds that... you have some Twitter moron's cope map?
>was Bakhmut actually worth it for the Russians?
No, but also yes
the numbers are actually nuts
at the start of the battler Wagner reported 85k personnel and authority over 85km of front line so 1000 men per km
at the end of the battle western estimated Wagner kia ranged form 20 to 40k and possibly the same wounded
by the end of the battle Wagner only had authority over 5k of front line, witch would indicate that 40k kia and 40k wounded would be accurate ...
Manpower is the key to Ukraine's success. Or rather Russia's lack thereof. Despite having a much larger population, Ru have struggled to grow their ground combat force. Ukies will concentrate on exploiting this. Russia will run out of capable and willing men. They'll keep on replacing the defenders with less able and more demoralized bodies. I think its more about the bodies and less about the gear.
>certain
>Kherson
Come on now.
Anon, we have to talk about your (You) addiction.
Why didn't the russkies go around the flanks and surround the city instead of costly take it block by block? Wouldn't it be much easier to take a city when your opponent can't reinforce it constantly?
Unironically what arms will Russia export now that they destroyed all their T-55s