That is not really correct.
Su-57 was modeled to return as little radar as it could, we are talking about the general shape here, not the execution and details.
they're being manufactured exactly the sameway. the only difference is that one photo is a long shot of the entire factory floor whereas the other focuses on an individual plane.
>they're being manufactured exactly the sameway.
There are more F-35s in that image than SU-57s in existence.
They're emphatically not manufactured the same way as the latter isn't being manufactured at all.
>trainer
Pic related also uses smaller turbofan engine but they get around the limitation by using 2 afterburning version said engine. It could even carry more payload than single engined gripen
If the engine mature enough they could use a modified hurjet design as a basis for their own light multirole aircraft programme.
>for a trainer kek
Did you see their new Pilatus rip-off?
It's a clear goddamn rip-off.
>pilatus
You mean hurkus? It's not exactly a (direct) rip off as they build them using tech transfer from Korean KT-1
It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Hurjet is build using TAI's knowledge and experience in assembling, servicing and upgrading F-16s
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It is such a simple plane, no wonder.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
For copying.
It is an exceptionally simple design.
A single engine with a single intake, external mounting, single seater, no/minimal exotic materials, fixed wing and other stuff.
While it was groundbreaking for its time, it is as simple as fighter jets get these days.
Imagine trying to copy the F-14 for your first national jet.
The Turkish people have a rich aeronautical tradition, it’s no shock the inventors of the plane would inevitably beat Russia to true fifth generation capabilities
Many people influenced aviation before, alongside, and after the Wright brothers.
One could argue that modern flight started with Otto Lilienthal.... the Germans.
I have a a lot of respect for the Wright Brothers, and more for their mechanic, Charles Taylor. But let's not pretend that the rest of the world was so far behind.
However, I don't think the Turks were quite there.
You misspelled "France" anon.
The Wright Brothers took inspiration and comments from many Aviation pioneers, notably French ones. Starting with Louis Mouillard whose book influenced them considerably.
The first powered and self-propelled takeoff was also achieved by Clément Ader 13 years before the Wright brothers, in 1890.
Before that, Jean-Marie Le Bris had invented wing warping in 1868 for his glider called the Albatross. 30 years before the Wright brothers used warping.
The words "Aviation" and "Aviation" were invented by Clément Ader who also theorized most of what is still used today in civil and military aviation, notably airports, airlines, aircraft carriers, etc.
Just as the word "astronaut" was invented by Robert Esnault-Pelterie who, coincidentally, also conversed extensively with the Wright brothers and helped them enormously, he also first used the aileron (another French word although its concept was invented by British inventor Richard Pearse) by modifying a Wright 1902 glider. Esnault-Pelterie then notably invented the joystick allowing to mix pitch and roll with the same command, as well as the autopilot using a gyroscopic mechanism returning an aircraft to horizontal flight.
Let's not forget Louis Blériot who quite simply invented the aerodynamic formula still most used for an aircraft, front engine, monoplane, single-fuselage, rear tail with a single vertical rudder and a single horizontal stabilizer.
I'll give you something though, it is by admiring a Wilbur Wright Flyer owned by Count Lambert passing over his school that the young Marcel Bloch, later known as Marcel Dassault, decided to become an aviation engineer. >https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/histoire/hommes/marcel-dassault/
The story of French contributions to aviation obviously does not end there, but that is another story.
Enjoy being American, but please give credit where credit is due.
You are, however, completely free to make fun of deluded brown people.
>erm actually OUR guy technically left the ground so it counts
If you want to get pedantic, the first record of flight was 10000BC when a caveman wondered if he could use a leather sack to catch steam from a geyser. The Wright Brothers were the first for unassisted, self powered, 3 axis controlled flight
>If you want to get pedantic, the first record of flight was 10000BC when a caveman wondered if he could use a leather sack to catch steam from a geyser. The Wright Brothers were the first for unassisted, self powered, 3 axis controlled flight
That wasn't their first flight then, since the Flyer was taking off from atop a flat mine wagon on a small mine railway, which is pretty much assisted since friction is therefore limited.
They were making bicycles before they started making airplanes but only added wheels to the Flyer in 1909 on request from the French army which had asked for a demonstration.
kek
I mean I'll give you this: russians and turks are about equal on the "delusional brown people"-scale when it comes to military equipment and capabilities
They are called Gen4.5.
And it is occupied only by the Rafale, if Su-57 is counted as a 5th Gen, then every one of these planes is 5tg Gen by nothing but the merit of their recency.
You are shitting up the definitions with the "4th+++++plus+" type of shit, like fricking Intel.
There is no need for it.
I would look into why we call Rafale jets "4.5th Gen" and work out a gradient and where does the asiatic and turk plane fit on it.
For me, Rafale is a "4.5th Gen" because it was built on 4th Gen ideology of WVR fighters with its body design and unstable flight just waiting to get jerked around but as the years went on, it got armaments, sensors, processors, HIDs, comms and integration of a 5th Gen fighter, muddying the definition.
These planes are the opposite but not different from the Rafale, while Rafale is 4th Gen body with 5th Gen equipment, these planes are 5th Gen bodies with 4th Gen equipment so I would, with no remorse, put them into 4.5th Gen category ... that is if vatniks didn't shit up the definitions further with the Su-57, so who knows what any of this means anymore.
Su-57 is with 4th gen equipment for sure. The body may look 5th gen and according to Russian claims is 5th gen stealthy. But with how often they lie about their own stuff, it may just be a 4th gen body with a body kit. At least it has internal weapon bay, so that beats the asiatics plane.
The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.
The Eurogay Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further
Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair comparison. Calling it an equal to the F-35 is pushing it though. Dedicated VLO airframe design with internal stores alone puts it ahead. I don't know enough about its sensor package and networking capabilities but I'd be shocked if it was on par with what the JSF can do there too.
Still a good plane, don't get me wrong. I'll take a squadron of them over one of Russian chest-beating any day.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Rafale F4+ standard has integrated theatre wide communications and target info sharing and they tested it by striking a target from a Rafale backwards via data from another Rafale so they are certainly pushing for 5th gen characteristics when it comes to "swarm-like" operation of the jets and general processing and comms.
It also has Spectra EW.
It lacks the 360° awareness of the F-35 tho, and we can assume that French CPUs are probably not on-par with US chips.
And the radar is limited by the size of the nose which is pretty small when compared to other AESAs.
So, all in all, as we said, a system that is being bottlenecked by the airframe but a good system nonetheless.
If its not carried internally, it doesn't matter.
We had an entire discussion about this earlier, we are going in circles.
Rafale is not a 5th Gen fighter and I am not the one who claimed that.
You are shitting up the definitions with the "4th+++++plus+" type of shit, like fricking Intel.
There is no need for it.
I would look into why we call Rafale jets "4.5th Gen" and work out a gradient and where does the asiatic and turk plane fit on it.
For me, Rafale is a "4.5th Gen" because it was built on 4th Gen ideology of WVR fighters with its body design and unstable flight just waiting to get jerked around but as the years went on, it got armaments, sensors, processors, HIDs, comms and integration of a 5th Gen fighter, muddying the definition.
These planes are the opposite but not different from the Rafale, while Rafale is 4th Gen body with 5th Gen equipment, these planes are 5th Gen bodies with 4th Gen equipment so I would, with no remorse, put them into 4.5th Gen category ... that is if vatniks didn't shit up the definitions further with the Su-57, so who knows what any of this means anymore.
While I will not object to the current state of the Rafale as being superior to the Su-57 and potentially the J-20, the F1 standard of it was pretty rough.
As for the equality before the F-35, I wouldn't be sure about that.
As for the Typhoon, Airbus claims that it is in sever shortage of orders, which tells you everything you need to now about it.
Maybe.
I don't think that China has an all that imlessive military capability, it is just numbers, Soviet style.
J-20 was their first real jet they made and it is somehow supposed to be equal to Americans? Yeah, no.
As for the F-22, it is quite an old plane that wasn't updated to latest standards, still above anything else but, yeah.
Exactly. Since Kaan started later, they can benefit from years of technological advancement afforded to them that the asiatics didnt have when they started their KFX.
Also Kaan is a bigger plane than KFX. Kaan uses F-15 engine while KFX uses a slightly bigger engine used on their T-50 trainer jet
They've got a prototype flying with a US supplied F-15/F-16 engine
We know nothing about them solving the issues of stealth materials or sensors, so I'd hold my horses
Yes, they have a domestic jet engine project ongoing but how will they manage to net a 5th Gen engine on their first go is beyond me.
Even Saffran is having difficulties manufacturing 2000°C tolerant materiel.
Although better than the Russian engine that American engine is still a 4th generation engine. It's closer to the su-57 or j-20 in capability than the f-35. And Turkish eots capabilities are good but ehh compared to muttshitters it's nowhere close. Also questionable ew capabilities. Roach sensor fusion is questionable. Their best bvr missile is worse than aim120c5 not even c7. This thing won't be ready uptill 2035. Unless they do something similar to f-35 and just bring an unfinished product in IOC. The only thing going for it is the som-j and integration with akinci and aksungur
If they can actually outfit a squadron, then yeah.
I mean it looks stealthier than the Su-57 at least.
That is not really correct.
Su-57 was modeled to return as little radar as it could, we are talking about the general shape here, not the execution and details.
considering Turk economy is in better shape than Russia, probably
We'll see if they can actually produce it.
The Turks want tech transfer, the US and UK said no.
We don't know if they can actually build an engine.
they're being manufactured exactly the sameway. the only difference is that one photo is a long shot of the entire factory floor whereas the other focuses on an individual plane.
>they're being manufactured exactly the sameway.
There are more F-35s in that image than SU-57s in existence.
They're emphatically not manufactured the same way as the latter isn't being manufactured at all.
The turks could barely build a turbofan engine for a trainer kek
>for a trainer kek
Did you see their new Pilatus rip-off?
It's a clear goddamn rip-off.
>trainer
Pic related also uses smaller turbofan engine but they get around the limitation by using 2 afterburning version said engine. It could even carry more payload than single engined gripen
If the engine mature enough they could use a modified hurjet design as a basis for their own light multirole aircraft programme.
>pilatus
You mean hurkus? It's not exactly a (direct) rip off as they build them using tech transfer from Korean KT-1
Man, the F-CK-1 always looks so good. More soul than anything the chicom made.
Because fricking general dynamics fricking carried the programme lmao. Taiwan only provided the dough and oompa loompa for some menial shit
Off topic but there's at least 4 different fighter programme that can trace its development from F-16
>F-CK-1 (Taiwan)
>JF-17 (China/Pakistan)
>F-2 (Japan)
>FA-50 (Korea)
It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Hurjet is build using TAI's knowledge and experience in assembling, servicing and upgrading F-16s
It is such a simple plane, no wonder.
?
For copying.
It is an exceptionally simple design.
A single engine with a single intake, external mounting, single seater, no/minimal exotic materials, fixed wing and other stuff.
While it was groundbreaking for its time, it is as simple as fighter jets get these days.
Imagine trying to copy the F-14 for your first national jet.
The Turkish people have a rich aeronautical tradition, it’s no shock the inventors of the plane would inevitably beat Russia to true fifth generation capabilities
It needs to have a RCS of <1m and you need to have more than 12 of them to beat the mighty bear.
Don't Bulgars also claim that?
And Brazilians?
Bulgars are basically Turkish. All they kept from being Caucasian is really weird mustaches. Brazilians are kind of moronic
Maybe but they still see themselves as a separate nation.
It is an interesting topic and something that will get a lot of ... funny (nationalist) people involved.
>Brazilians are kind of moronic
It's a combination of AIDS and GN 125 Suzukis, but is often self-deleting.
Yes, they did beat Russia to it, not that beating literal morons, with lower IQs than fish, is a big accomplishment to begin with.
>Brazilians
A brazilian was the father of aviation, yes, but he actually lived in France so it kinda doesn't count as a brazilian win.
its really funny how many nations try to claim inventing the plane away from the US
Many people influenced aviation before, alongside, and after the Wright brothers.
One could argue that modern flight started with Otto Lilienthal.... the Germans.
I have a a lot of respect for the Wright Brothers, and more for their mechanic, Charles Taylor. But let's not pretend that the rest of the world was so far behind.
However, I don't think the Turks were quite there.
You misspelled "France" anon.
The Wright Brothers took inspiration and comments from many Aviation pioneers, notably French ones. Starting with Louis Mouillard whose book influenced them considerably.
The first powered and self-propelled takeoff was also achieved by Clément Ader 13 years before the Wright brothers, in 1890.
Before that, Jean-Marie Le Bris had invented wing warping in 1868 for his glider called the Albatross. 30 years before the Wright brothers used warping.
The words "Aviation" and "Aviation" were invented by Clément Ader who also theorized most of what is still used today in civil and military aviation, notably airports, airlines, aircraft carriers, etc.
Just as the word "astronaut" was invented by Robert Esnault-Pelterie who, coincidentally, also conversed extensively with the Wright brothers and helped them enormously, he also first used the aileron (another French word although its concept was invented by British inventor Richard Pearse) by modifying a Wright 1902 glider. Esnault-Pelterie then notably invented the joystick allowing to mix pitch and roll with the same command, as well as the autopilot using a gyroscopic mechanism returning an aircraft to horizontal flight.
Let's not forget Louis Blériot who quite simply invented the aerodynamic formula still most used for an aircraft, front engine, monoplane, single-fuselage, rear tail with a single vertical rudder and a single horizontal stabilizer.
I'll give you something though, it is by admiring a Wilbur Wright Flyer owned by Count Lambert passing over his school that the young Marcel Bloch, later known as Marcel Dassault, decided to become an aviation engineer.
>https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/histoire/hommes/marcel-dassault/
The story of French contributions to aviation obviously does not end there, but that is another story.
Enjoy being American, but please give credit where credit is due.
You are, however, completely free to make fun of deluded brown people.
>erm actually OUR guy technically left the ground so it counts
If you want to get pedantic, the first record of flight was 10000BC when a caveman wondered if he could use a leather sack to catch steam from a geyser. The Wright Brothers were the first for unassisted, self powered, 3 axis controlled flight
>If you want to get pedantic, the first record of flight was 10000BC when a caveman wondered if he could use a leather sack to catch steam from a geyser. The Wright Brothers were the first for unassisted, self powered, 3 axis controlled flight
That wasn't their first flight then, since the Flyer was taking off from atop a flat mine wagon on a small mine railway, which is pretty much assisted since friction is therefore limited.
They were making bicycles before they started making airplanes but only added wheels to the Flyer in 1909 on request from the French army which had asked for a demonstration.
kek
I mean I'll give you this: russians and turks are about equal on the "delusional brown people"-scale when it comes to military equipment and capabilities
Nearly everyone is like that. Most of the "We're NATO! Don't mess with us!"-members are on the same delusional level.
France is a pretty good example, yeah.
>imblying
Korea's KF-21 programme, which started and finished earlier than TFX, is currently classified as 4++ gen aircraft.
>not 5th gen
>currently classified as 4++ gen aircraft
Interesting, can we see this classification body?
They are called Gen4.5.
And it is occupied only by the Rafale, if Su-57 is counted as a 5th Gen, then every one of these planes is 5tg Gen by nothing but the merit of their recency.
I thought everyone already agrees that the Su-57 is pseudo 5th gen, 4++ gen at most? Except those that drink the blyat kool-aid, of course.
You are shitting up the definitions with the "4th+++++plus+" type of shit, like fricking Intel.
There is no need for it.
I would look into why we call Rafale jets "4.5th Gen" and work out a gradient and where does the asiatic and turk plane fit on it.
For me, Rafale is a "4.5th Gen" because it was built on 4th Gen ideology of WVR fighters with its body design and unstable flight just waiting to get jerked around but as the years went on, it got armaments, sensors, processors, HIDs, comms and integration of a 5th Gen fighter, muddying the definition.
These planes are the opposite but not different from the Rafale, while Rafale is 4th Gen body with 5th Gen equipment, these planes are 5th Gen bodies with 4th Gen equipment so I would, with no remorse, put them into 4.5th Gen category ... that is if vatniks didn't shit up the definitions further with the Su-57, so who knows what any of this means anymore.
Su-57 is with 4th gen equipment for sure. The body may look 5th gen and according to Russian claims is 5th gen stealthy. But with how often they lie about their own stuff, it may just be a 4th gen body with a body kit. At least it has internal weapon bay, so that beats the asiatics plane.
Yeah, but everyone just goes with it.
No point in "akschually"-ing against these odds.
The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.
The Eurogay Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further
>is fully the equal of the F-35
not with that 4th gen airframe
NTA
What is funny is that Rafale has the same RCS as the Su-57 of 1m2.
Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair comparison. Calling it an equal to the F-35 is pushing it though. Dedicated VLO airframe design with internal stores alone puts it ahead. I don't know enough about its sensor package and networking capabilities but I'd be shocked if it was on par with what the JSF can do there too.
Still a good plane, don't get me wrong. I'll take a squadron of them over one of Russian chest-beating any day.
Rafale F4+ standard has integrated theatre wide communications and target info sharing and they tested it by striking a target from a Rafale backwards via data from another Rafale so they are certainly pushing for 5th gen characteristics when it comes to "swarm-like" operation of the jets and general processing and comms.
It also has Spectra EW.
It lacks the 360° awareness of the F-35 tho, and we can assume that French CPUs are probably not on-par with US chips.
And the radar is limited by the size of the nose which is pretty small when compared to other AESAs.
So, all in all, as we said, a system that is being bottlenecked by the airframe but a good system nonetheless.
We had an entire discussion about this earlier, we are going in circles.
Rafale is not a 5th Gen fighter and I am not the one who claimed that.
, this is me.
While I will not object to the current state of the Rafale as being superior to the Su-57 and potentially the J-20, the F1 standard of it was pretty rough.
As for the equality before the F-35, I wouldn't be sure about that.
As for the Typhoon, Airbus claims that it is in sever shortage of orders, which tells you everything you need to now about it.
Rafale has no IWB, any fighter that don't have one shouldn't try to be called "equal" to 5th gen tbh.
It carries 10 tones of armaments.
You severely overestimate Eastern capabilities.
If its not carried internally, it doesn't matter.
The Rafale is equal to the F-22 and superior to the J-20, supposed fifth generation fighters
>quoting pajeet bumwipes
While you're at it might as well quoting infowars lmao
Maybe.
I don't think that China has an all that imlessive military capability, it is just numbers, Soviet style.
J-20 was their first real jet they made and it is somehow supposed to be equal to Americans? Yeah, no.
As for the F-22, it is quite an old plane that wasn't updated to latest standards, still above anything else but, yeah.
It’s probably better than a Su-57 but not quite an F-35.
better than a Su-57 is probably not a high bar to pass anyway.
Exactly. Since Kaan started later, they can benefit from years of technological advancement afforded to them that the asiatics didnt have when they started their KFX.
Also Kaan is a bigger plane than KFX. Kaan uses F-15 engine while KFX uses a slightly bigger engine used on their T-50 trainer jet
They've got a prototype flying with a US supplied F-15/F-16 engine
We know nothing about them solving the issues of stealth materials or sensors, so I'd hold my horses
>F-15/F-16 engine
is this another "we are getting the real stuff soon" case like with the asiatic tanks?
Yes, they have a domestic jet engine project ongoing but how will they manage to net a 5th Gen engine on their first go is beyond me.
Even Saffran is having difficulties manufacturing 2000°C tolerant materiel.
Although better than the Russian engine that American engine is still a 4th generation engine. It's closer to the su-57 or j-20 in capability than the f-35. And Turkish eots capabilities are good but ehh compared to muttshitters it's nowhere close. Also questionable ew capabilities. Roach sensor fusion is questionable. Their best bvr missile is worse than aim120c5 not even c7. This thing won't be ready uptill 2035. Unless they do something similar to f-35 and just bring an unfinished product in IOC. The only thing going for it is the som-j and integration with akinci and aksungur
No offense, but Kaan at this stage is like where the Su-57 was in 2010
That being said, the plane looks good and they did beat the entirety of Europe, UK and Japan.
bump