Body armour lead to them being replaced with PDWs, better body armour killed the PDW too.
As for civilian use a SMG is peak home defence but you don't get the giggle switch because your life isn't as valuable as those that can afford body guards with SMGs.
>As for civilian use a SMG is peak home defence but you don't get the giggle switch because your life isn't as valuable as those that can afford body guards with SMGs.
Sad but true.
>As for civilian use a SMG is peak home defence but you don't get the giggle switch because your life isn't as valuable as those that can afford body guards with SMGs.
Sad but true.
You act like armor piercing rounds aren't a thing.
Who the frick is wearing level 4 body armor that can defeat +P black tips in ANY scenario where a SMG would be used? They're basically relegated to CQB and naval exercises where over-penetration and ricochets are primary concerns.
Somalian pirates are now rocking Level4 plates?
The REAL reason people stopped using SMGs and switched to PDWs is because of the AR15 industrial complex heralded by the Rothschild conglomerates of Northropp-Grumman, BP, and PepsiCo.
>Who the frick is wearing level 4 body armor that can defeat +P black tips in ANY scenario where a SMG would be used?
Everyone. You are not defeating modern IV plates with a PDW or even an intermediate cartridge.
That being said, civilians don't really need to concern themselves with this sort of thing. a PDW or SMG would be great for home defense because your average crackhead robber is not wearing armor.
https://i.imgur.com/Bwz2feA.jpg
>da Army trains for full auto in CQB >I know cause dats how I do it in Tarkov! >Tarkov is also where I learned about AP ammo and leg meta
Clearing rooms is a "police action" meme.
If you watch trench fighting videos from Ukraine the meta is to just lob grenades, huge improvised bombs, or spray on full auto.
>You are not defeating modern IV plates with a PDW.
I hate to break it to you, but 5.56mm, especially out of some tiny ass barrel, is not going to ever defeat modern level 4 either.
SWAT, police, etc. all over the world still use SMGs. The reason they are not popular on /k/ is purely LARP fantasists dreaming about how other people a. posers without "muh real deal load outs," where as their 8 identical AR-15s are "SHTF " and ""Boog" approved for all the people covered head to tow in level 4 they will face...
...even though their weapon is also infective against that same armor and they have reeeeeed over 6.8mm precisely because they think even a full powered round will be equally ineffective against armor, that BABT isn't relevant, etc.
Of course, the whole thing is contradictory cope to deal with cognitive dissonance. If 6.8mm is stupid because it simply can't defeat armor and what is actually important is having more rounds with less recoil so you can hit where the target is unarmored, then the same logic that makes people suggest that 5.56mm > .308 and 6.8mm for armor says PDWs are superior to 5.56mm "meta."
It basically comes down to "SBRs were the meta of GWOT raids and I gotta be equipped like the Navy Seals for my LARP."
3 months ago
Anonymous
Except 5.56 weighs less than 9mm does, while giving you actual better wounding, and has low recoil still, whereas 5.7 gives you worse terminal effects, and is worse for civilians because of limited projo selection, limited projo availability, limited weapons that fire it, and weird coatings on the cases that make reloading an adventure. 5.56 fits in pdw sized guns too, you're just a humongous snowflake of a homosexual.
Body armor is good enough to reliably stop 5.56mm now.
You don't really get significant BABT with it either. If armor is what makes PDWs and SMGs obsolete, and level 4 that will reliably stop 5.56mm is getting cheap and can be found on Syrian rebels, etc., what exactly is the argument here.
What's the weight difference between armor that's going to stop 5.7mm and 5.56mm and more over what is everyone likely to wear if 5.56mm is the norm?
>Has the SMG gone the way of the dinosaur for the military?
the army carries a few for niche purposes
developing countries still pack them for special purposes like clearing ship interiors
They're in the special forces armories for the guys who're attached to do something like explosives work and are required to carry a "rifle" but the entire team knows that if they're actually required to shoot something, things have gone majorly fricked and as so it's better for them to carry the lightest thing possible to make room for their specialty gear.
Who the frick is wearing level 4 body armor that can defeat +P black tips in ANY scenario where a SMG would be used? They're basically relegated to CQB and naval exercises where over-penetration and ricochets are primary concerns.
Somalian pirates are now rocking Level4 plates?
The REAL reason people stopped using SMGs and switched to PDWs is because of the AR15 industrial complex heralded by the Rothschild conglomerates of Northropp-Grumman, BP, and PepsiCo.
>hyper AP ammo can punch through plates >but it won't put holes in ship steel for reasons
The concern with using a 5.56 black tip at 2,800fps is that it'll go through your target and hit other people, not that it'll damage some wires. Do I need to give you a one-on-one lesson about deep penetration?
>my penetrators magically know when they're encountering ceramic and bore through, but instantly fragment upon touching dry wall
Also, bonus round; even if the target isn't wearing armor, PDW wounding is fricking terrible and takes far too many rounds to stop the target as reported by multiple users which is why everyone who actually shoots people has dropped them for carbines.
Oh now we're talking about drywall? Anything goes through drywall, even .22LR will penetrate multiple sheets of basic 1/2" gyprock. If you're raiding a house made of drywall it's probably an American home in which case everyone inside can die without any real problems arising. Police raid the wrong homes and murder people in their beds without consequence, it's just part and parcel of being American.
Aiming for heads and genitals are the new meta for CQB, you'd know this if you operat8ed hard enough. A few rounds of 5.7 into a man's penile region will put him down instantly. 2-3 shots of 9mm directly into his face will incapacitate him as well.
But I thought your leet gamer AP ammo was capable of punching through those plates?
>PDW wounding is fricking terrible and takes far too many rounds to stop the target
The P90 disagrees with a 50 round mag and very high rate of fire.
Real life isn't a video game where the bad guy gets hitstunned upon taking damage and can't shoot you anymore, and if you have to spend a large amount of rounds on a single target, that's time and ammo not being spent on anyone else in the room.
>When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.
heard some SOF guy on youtube say the exact same thing, that you'd have to literally fill guys with lead when using the mp7. Cool looking gun, would not want to be relying on it
3 months ago
Anonymous
Well hey I am a devoted follower of Jocko and Goggins so if someone like that said something I would definitely not question it. Same reason I get up at 2am and run 40 miles while eating a dozen raw eggs and reciting the pledge of allegiance backwards in latin before you've even taken your morning shit.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I think it was garand thumb, so the memes don't work. Something something 40lbs of lean body mass in 3 months
3 months ago
Anonymous
I think it was garand thumb, so the memes don't work. Something something 40lbs of lean body mass in 3 months
fwiw, Chuck Pressburg said something very similar about 5.7
He’s killed a lot more people than I have, so absent some kind of testing, I’ll have to take his word for it
3 months ago
Anonymous
I recently learned of the astoundingly bad stopping power of 5.7x28 and I'm not sure why it sucks so bad. It has the velocity and penetration to do good work, but every professional account is that it sucks.
>reported by multiple users >~~*reliable sources*~~ indicate >~~*it seems we need to spend money on a new thing*~~ >~~*according to objective interested parties*~~
Yeah, same reason they need the Sig abomination in 6.8. Same reason they needed AUC uniforms. Same reason they scrapped the M9 for a piece of plastic dogshit. Kek.
>P90 has a cyclic rate of 900 rpm >that's 15 rounds per second >a user holding on target with the trigger depressed for just one second will deliver 15 rounds of 5.7 traveling at 2,500 - 3,000fps
>but somehow multiple sources felt this was not adequate because humans were just surviving this way too much and ~~*evidence*~~ showed it took at least 500 to 1,000 rounds of 5.7 before the target was incapacitated
>too dumb to quote the correct post >no data, muh feels 🙁 >da israelites and money despite it actually being far cheaper to just use M4s then a completely different platform and boutique ammo
3 months ago
Anonymous
>far cheaper to just use M4s
I don't think you understand how the MIC works sweetie pie. Time for bed, I can see you have no argument when you're just linking to boomer forums at this point. Either refute the P90 argument objectively on your own merits or give it a rest.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>da Army trains for full auto in CQB >I know cause dats how I do it in Tarkov! >Tarkov is also where I learned about AP ammo and leg meta
what is this, some kind of global conspiracy that stretches across the entire world and every country? jesus christ man the proof is in the pudding, literally no military anywhere, and pretty much no police department anywhere, uses SMGs/PDWs. They suck dicks. And I swear to god if you reply by saying North Korea still uses the ppsh I'll find out where you live and shit on your car's engine block so you get fumigated by shit fumes when you turn the heat on
3 months ago
Anonymous
nta but Best Korea still uses SMGs quite a lot, so does Japan
silly sog for trusting their lying eyes over the opinion of Anonymous from PrepHole (formerly -nel)
3 months ago
Anonymous
[...]
fwiw, Chuck Pressburg said something very similar about 5.7
He’s killed a lot more people than I have, so absent some kind of testing, I’ll have to take his word for it
Anecdotal evidence vs actual research.
This is why the FBI went on a 30 year quest to try to develop a better pistol cartridge after the 1986 shootout in Miami. They went "Damn, we shot this guy 12 times and he didn't die! Our guns must be too weak!"
In the end they settled on 9mm anyway. That was because all that fricking research just lead them to conclude that shot placement is king and penetration is queen, so they never needed a new cartridge in the first place.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Good thing we're not stuck using pistol rounds anymore like it's 1920 the moment we want something shorter then a broomstick, and can instead compare a pistol round to an rifle round which has substantial research done showing it's better at achieving a one shot stop.
3 months ago
Anonymous
What research? Have you got anything that shows that 5.56 somehow defeats 5.7 when shot placement is the same?
3 months ago
Anonymous
5.7 is a meme round that was deservedly dead for the past two decades, so you'll have to settle for comparing rifle to every other pistol round instead.
[...]
fwiw, Chuck Pressburg said something very similar about 5.7
He’s killed a lot more people than I have, so absent some kind of testing, I’ll have to take his word for it
heard some SOF guy on youtube say the exact same thing, that you'd have to literally fill guys with lead when using the mp7. Cool looking gun, would not want to be relying on it
But I thought your leet gamer AP ammo was capable of punching through those plates?
[...]
Real life isn't a video game where the bad guy gets hitstunned upon taking damage and can't shoot you anymore, and if you have to spend a large amount of rounds on a single target, that's time and ammo not being spent on anyone else in the room.
>When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.
They're in the special forces armories for the guys who're attached to do something like explosives work and are required to carry a "rifle" but the entire team knows that if they're actually required to shoot something, things have gone majorly fricked and as so it's better for them to carry the lightest thing possible to make room for their specialty gear.
[...] >hyper AP ammo can punch through plates >but it won't put holes in ship steel for reasons
SF especially CT have different requirements. The MP5K and now the MP7 are popular choices for SF because they checked several boxes SF needed that army doesn't: they're more concealable, accurate, select fire, allow both operator and ready weapon to fit in tight spaces, and have less chance of overpenetration, which is a key concern when for example shooting a terrorist in the middle of a roomful of hostages
any issue of lethality and range is mitigated because SF train much more than regular Army and can place their shots more accurately, in heads for example; and most use cases are typically for close quarter battle
3 months ago
Anonymous
>are popular choices for SF because they checked several boxes SF needed
Specifically MP7 is very quiet with subsonic ammunition. Mark Owen mentioned they killed sleeping Afghanis with it without waking up others near.
nta but the bulkhead on a modern cargo or military vessel is about ten times thicker than any plate, but that's all moot because african pirates won't be wearing armor so regular .45ACP from a UMP will shred them into skinny confetti without issue
Not worth giving to pogues unless they're guarding POWs, with the idea being said pogue needs to carry a frick ton of ammo in the event they attempt to do zombie bullshit and prison break. Home defense relevance won't be there vs. tiny carbines until NFA's out of the picture as far as sales and development go.
Body armour lead to them being replaced with PDWs, better body armour killed the PDW too.
As for civilian use a SMG is peak home defence but you don't get the giggle switch because your life isn't as valuable as those that can afford body guards with SMGs.
>As for civilian use a SMG is peak home defence but you don't get the giggle switch because your life isn't as valuable as those that can afford body guards with SMGs.
Sad but true.
You act like armor piercing rounds aren't a thing.
I mentioned PDWs in AP optimized calibers specifically, body armour is good enough to stop even them now.
Who the frick is wearing level 4 body armor that can defeat +P black tips in ANY scenario where a SMG would be used? They're basically relegated to CQB and naval exercises where over-penetration and ricochets are primary concerns.
Somalian pirates are now rocking Level4 plates?
The REAL reason people stopped using SMGs and switched to PDWs is because of the AR15 industrial complex heralded by the Rothschild conglomerates of Northropp-Grumman, BP, and PepsiCo.
>Who the frick is wearing level 4 body armor that can defeat +P black tips in ANY scenario where a SMG would be used?
Everyone. You are not defeating modern IV plates with a PDW or even an intermediate cartridge.
That being said, civilians don't really need to concern themselves with this sort of thing. a PDW or SMG would be great for home defense because your average crackhead robber is not wearing armor.
Clearing rooms is a "police action" meme.
If you watch trench fighting videos from Ukraine the meta is to just lob grenades, huge improvised bombs, or spray on full auto.
Fire 10 rounds point blank and one is bound to hit where the plate aint
>huge improvised bombs,
Can I see them?
>You are not defeating modern IV plates with a PDW.
I hate to break it to you, but 5.56mm, especially out of some tiny ass barrel, is not going to ever defeat modern level 4 either.
SWAT, police, etc. all over the world still use SMGs. The reason they are not popular on /k/ is purely LARP fantasists dreaming about how other people a. posers without "muh real deal load outs," where as their 8 identical AR-15s are "SHTF " and ""Boog" approved for all the people covered head to tow in level 4 they will face...
...even though their weapon is also infective against that same armor and they have reeeeeed over 6.8mm precisely because they think even a full powered round will be equally ineffective against armor, that BABT isn't relevant, etc.
Of course, the whole thing is contradictory cope to deal with cognitive dissonance. If 6.8mm is stupid because it simply can't defeat armor and what is actually important is having more rounds with less recoil so you can hit where the target is unarmored, then the same logic that makes people suggest that 5.56mm > .308 and 6.8mm for armor says PDWs are superior to 5.56mm "meta."
It basically comes down to "SBRs were the meta of GWOT raids and I gotta be equipped like the Navy Seals for my LARP."
Except 5.56 weighs less than 9mm does, while giving you actual better wounding, and has low recoil still, whereas 5.7 gives you worse terminal effects, and is worse for civilians because of limited projo selection, limited projo availability, limited weapons that fire it, and weird coatings on the cases that make reloading an adventure. 5.56 fits in pdw sized guns too, you're just a humongous snowflake of a homosexual.
Honestly, I would love a PepsiCo rollmarked lower. That would be up there with Rockola M1 carbines.
certified hood classic
Body armor is good enough to reliably stop 5.56mm now.
You don't really get significant BABT with it either. If armor is what makes PDWs and SMGs obsolete, and level 4 that will reliably stop 5.56mm is getting cheap and can be found on Syrian rebels, etc., what exactly is the argument here.
What's the weight difference between armor that's going to stop 5.7mm and 5.56mm and more over what is everyone likely to wear if 5.56mm is the norm?
>Has the SMG gone the way of the dinosaur for the military?
the army carries a few for niche purposes
developing countries still pack them for special purposes like clearing ship interiors
They're in the special forces armories for the guys who're attached to do something like explosives work and are required to carry a "rifle" but the entire team knows that if they're actually required to shoot something, things have gone majorly fricked and as so it's better for them to carry the lightest thing possible to make room for their specialty gear.
>hyper AP ammo can punch through plates
>but it won't put holes in ship steel for reasons
The concern with using a 5.56 black tip at 2,800fps is that it'll go through your target and hit other people, not that it'll damage some wires. Do I need to give you a one-on-one lesson about deep penetration?
>my penetrators magically know when they're encountering ceramic and bore through, but instantly fragment upon touching dry wall
Also, bonus round; even if the target isn't wearing armor, PDW wounding is fricking terrible and takes far too many rounds to stop the target as reported by multiple users which is why everyone who actually shoots people has dropped them for carbines.
Oh now we're talking about drywall? Anything goes through drywall, even .22LR will penetrate multiple sheets of basic 1/2" gyprock. If you're raiding a house made of drywall it's probably an American home in which case everyone inside can die without any real problems arising. Police raid the wrong homes and murder people in their beds without consequence, it's just part and parcel of being American.
Aiming for heads and genitals are the new meta for CQB, you'd know this if you operat8ed hard enough. A few rounds of 5.7 into a man's penile region will put him down instantly. 2-3 shots of 9mm directly into his face will incapacitate him as well.
But I thought your leet gamer AP ammo was capable of punching through those plates?
Real life isn't a video game where the bad guy gets hitstunned upon taking damage and can't shoot you anymore, and if you have to spend a large amount of rounds on a single target, that's time and ammo not being spent on anyone else in the room.
>When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm&s=eba77baac756bb37980380acee03d91d
heard some SOF guy on youtube say the exact same thing, that you'd have to literally fill guys with lead when using the mp7. Cool looking gun, would not want to be relying on it
Well hey I am a devoted follower of Jocko and Goggins so if someone like that said something I would definitely not question it. Same reason I get up at 2am and run 40 miles while eating a dozen raw eggs and reciting the pledge of allegiance backwards in latin before you've even taken your morning shit.
I think it was garand thumb, so the memes don't work. Something something 40lbs of lean body mass in 3 months
fwiw, Chuck Pressburg said something very similar about 5.7
He’s killed a lot more people than I have, so absent some kind of testing, I’ll have to take his word for it
I recently learned of the astoundingly bad stopping power of 5.7x28 and I'm not sure why it sucks so bad. It has the velocity and penetration to do good work, but every professional account is that it sucks.
Did fine in Fort Hood
>PDW wounding is fricking terrible and takes far too many rounds to stop the target
The P90 disagrees with a 50 round mag and very high rate of fire.
>reported by multiple users
>~~*reliable sources*~~ indicate
>~~*it seems we need to spend money on a new thing*~~
>~~*according to objective interested parties*~~
Yeah, same reason they need the Sig abomination in 6.8. Same reason they needed AUC uniforms. Same reason they scrapped the M9 for a piece of plastic dogshit. Kek.
>P90 has a cyclic rate of 900 rpm
>that's 15 rounds per second
>a user holding on target with the trigger depressed for just one second will deliver 15 rounds of 5.7 traveling at 2,500 - 3,000fps
>but somehow multiple sources felt this was not adequate because humans were just surviving this way too much and ~~*evidence*~~ showed it took at least 500 to 1,000 rounds of 5.7 before the target was incapacitated
>too dumb to quote the correct post
>no data, muh feels 🙁
>da israelites and money despite it actually being far cheaper to just use M4s then a completely different platform and boutique ammo
>far cheaper to just use M4s
I don't think you understand how the MIC works sweetie pie. Time for bed, I can see you have no argument when you're just linking to boomer forums at this point. Either refute the P90 argument objectively on your own merits or give it a rest.
>da Army trains for full auto in CQB
>I know cause dats how I do it in Tarkov!
>Tarkov is also where I learned about AP ammo and leg meta
>smug anime posting
I accept your surrender :^)
>no, that refutation doesn't count 🙁
oh but my sweet summer child you've already lost
Da Army just tosses grenades in every room
>vtubertroony..
what is this, some kind of global conspiracy that stretches across the entire world and every country? jesus christ man the proof is in the pudding, literally no military anywhere, and pretty much no police department anywhere, uses SMGs/PDWs. They suck dicks. And I swear to god if you reply by saying North Korea still uses the ppsh I'll find out where you live and shit on your car's engine block so you get fumigated by shit fumes when you turn the heat on
nta but Best Korea still uses SMGs quite a lot, so does Japan
silly sog for trusting their lying eyes over the opinion of Anonymous from PrepHole (formerly -nel)
Anecdotal evidence vs actual research.
This is why the FBI went on a 30 year quest to try to develop a better pistol cartridge after the 1986 shootout in Miami. They went "Damn, we shot this guy 12 times and he didn't die! Our guns must be too weak!"
In the end they settled on 9mm anyway. That was because all that fricking research just lead them to conclude that shot placement is king and penetration is queen, so they never needed a new cartridge in the first place.
Good thing we're not stuck using pistol rounds anymore like it's 1920 the moment we want something shorter then a broomstick, and can instead compare a pistol round to an rifle round which has substantial research done showing it's better at achieving a one shot stop.
What research? Have you got anything that shows that 5.56 somehow defeats 5.7 when shot placement is the same?
5.7 is a meme round that was deservedly dead for the past two decades, so you'll have to settle for comparing rifle to every other pistol round instead.
https://www.tierthreetactical.com/analyzing-1800-shootings-which-caliber-has-the-best-stopping-power/
SF especially CT have different requirements. The MP5K and now the MP7 are popular choices for SF because they checked several boxes SF needed that army doesn't: they're more concealable, accurate, select fire, allow both operator and ready weapon to fit in tight spaces, and have less chance of overpenetration, which is a key concern when for example shooting a terrorist in the middle of a roomful of hostages
any issue of lethality and range is mitigated because SF train much more than regular Army and can place their shots more accurately, in heads for example; and most use cases are typically for close quarter battle
>are popular choices for SF because they checked several boxes SF needed
Specifically MP7 is very quiet with subsonic ammunition. Mark Owen mentioned they killed sleeping Afghanis with it without waking up others near.
nta but the bulkhead on a modern cargo or military vessel is about ten times thicker than any plate, but that's all moot because african pirates won't be wearing armor so regular .45ACP from a UMP will shred them into skinny confetti without issue
Not worth giving to pogues unless they're guarding POWs, with the idea being said pogue needs to carry a frick ton of ammo in the event they attempt to do zombie bullshit and prison break. Home defense relevance won't be there vs. tiny carbines until NFA's out of the picture as far as sales and development go.
>They'd still be viable in citizen's hands.
Not when they're restricted to semi auto only then you just have a bulky two-handed handgun at that point.
Kinda true - I have shot semi only SMGs and full autos both and semi only feels fricking lame
Bro why do you keep making these threads? You get the same answer every time
The real question is what supposed quality threads they are trying to drown out in the mess of qtddtot and generals.
The military doesn't need them because SBRs let them streamline their logistics.
For civilians they work great.
What’s the best mag in grip smg/pdw?
I still want it.