So in hindsight, was this an overkill? What are they even going to use them on, individual soldiers?
So in hindsight, was this an overkill? What are they even going to use them on, individual soldiers?
So in hindsight, was this an overkill? What are they even going to use them on, individual soldiers?
more dakka, the better
...no, they're going to "donate" half of them to Ukraine, silly.
It's basically a non-nuclear MAD for Poland, Moscow wouldn't survive.
See
Imagine 2,000 PRSMs going out in the first few minutes if any stupid shit goes down.
Wouldn't operating 500 HIMARS at the same time require an ungodly amount of cash burned every day, just to supply missiles? Can't see how Poland could possibly sustain that.
I guess they have depth to sustain casualties though.
HIMARS is mostly just a track, why would it cost much? And the missiles aren't that expensive
Yeah, something I learned recently is that HIMARS actually isn't all that expensive. Not the trucks or the missiles. Each missile is like $40k USD. That's equivalent to 54 minutes of flight time in an F-35. JUST flight time, never mind the cost of munitions and training the pilots, etc. Doing bombing runs with jets costs way more than using a HIMARS missile to strike a target. HIMARS is is cheap for the capability it brings. That's it's appeal.
The revelation in Ukraine is that Russian air defense cannot stop them which they previously believed HIMARS wouldn't be very effective. The S-400 manufacturer really dropped the ball and so did the Russian military corruption wise.
Even if they could stop them, remember, it's 40k USD per missile. That's definitely less than the cost of an S-400 missile. If Russia even tried to intercept HIMARS strikes with S-400, they'd quickly run out of missiles that could be used for targeting jets.
And if they can't take out missiles good luck surviving a iraq style invasion
40k a missile?
Isn't javelin around 75k a piece?
And I see HIMARS salvos doing much more damage. Image "The Kiev Convoy" But With 8 HIMARSes. Russians wouldn't be able to run after few salvos.
No, it must be more expensive than that.
Javelins are more complex, they have top attack capability and shit
javelin has imagin infrared sensor, while M31 missile is very much your regular artillery rocket with a 20k JDAM kit strapped onto it, technologically speaking
I may have been wrong and the actual missile cost is $150k. No one actually seems to know for sure since HIMARS is sold as a package deal. One would think that the lesser ranged missiles Ukraine has been given aren't as expensive as the full range ones.
M31 is around $150k a shot, not sure about M30
Very cheap
The real cost comes from supplying the missiles. Unless Poland is going to pull some Russia-tier "open-air stockpiles" right next to their batteries than they can't sustain the usage of 500 HIMARS, and it's already shown that a dozen is more than enough.
>they can't sustain the usage of 500 HIMARS
instantaneous bandwidth has its own worth
This is more in the "Buying new guns instead of more mags/ammo" kind of problem. They won't have 500+ viable targets for 500 HIMARS.
If a 200k invasion force like the one attacking Ukraine gathered near Polish border 500 HIMARS would be able to cripple it day one. Just look at those miles long columns they had in the first weeks. They would all get vaporized.
>an ungodly amount of cash burned every day, just to supply
Welcome to war. Russia is expending 66,000 artillery shells in Ukraine per day. I don't even make that much in dollars per year.
First it was 10k, then 40k from Armchair Warlord, now it's 60k. I guess it's good that the quoted number is not climbing exponentially.
Honestly, past a certain number it becomes a case of the more the merrier, from a pro Ukrainian perspective. The barrel life on arty guns isn't infinite. If Russia is lobbing shells everywhere and not hitting anything, they're wearing down their stocks and the accuracy of their guns.
Lol nobody ANYWERE is dropping that many per day.
>Can't see how Poland could possibly sustain that.
They can't, it's a political stunt, even Poles say it. Just like their goal of massively increasing the number of active troops.
>...types the vatBlack person nervously for the 20th time
This is the first thread on this subject, moron.
Calling vatBlack person for anything that displeases you is pathetic.
They want to increase their army to about 600k active troops, which is 2% of their population, that's the main issue brought up.
Also, 500 HIMARS is about the total number ever built over 10 years, for multiple countries.
Poland didn't have the money to increase the size of their army or modernize it quicker before the war, and now we're to believe they have all the funds necessary to buy about a thousand tanks, planes, artillery, equip hundreds of thousands of troops and pay for maintenance?
Its not. Kys. Thanks.
Also
>hurr if you have money the people will just come to the army
>saying this while America themselves have trouble recruting
>600k
>lmao I just double up the number that was actually the target so it seems even more unlikely to defend
Again kys.
>hurr if you have money the people will just come to the army
>saying this while America themselves have trouble recruting
What the frick does it have to do with America?
Poles really use the same rhetorics as Russians.
So what is not true here? 🙂
America was never the subject, stop deflecting, you just make your kind look like Russians under a different flag.
>brings up an example as of why his logic fails
>its his homecountry so kneejerk reaction is to shit himselves over that
Kek subhuman
>so kneejerk reaction is to shit himselves
ESLs seething is always a marvel to behold
>Americans having recruitment troubles
>therefore Poland will as well
This is your brain on third-world IQ.
That was not what he was saying, he said that just because a country has enough money for the army they want, doesn't mean they can find enough men that will sign up, which he says is USA's problem now.
Now Poland probably has enough motivated men wanting to sign up, but here the problem is that Poland might not have a strong enough economy to maintain the army they want, which is what the anon he's replying to is arguing will be the problem.
Poland army has lots of artillery armor and armored transports
- there are around 900 units of self propelled artillery in active service now - including around 100 ancient grads... so i imagine those 500 himars will simply replace older mlrs in existing units.
there are only mechanized and tank divisions in polish land forces - classic infantry role is relegated to old conscript and territorial defense units.
>Poland didn't have the money to increase the size of their army or modernize it quicker before the war
Money was there. But there was no need since nobody took Russian threats seriously. Now this changed.
And 500 HIMARS is not even a crazy number. Koreans operate around 550 MLRS systems.
>It's a Pole
Paint me surprised.
Why is this board suddenly infested with those filthy nogun beasts?
Sorry Udo aber ich bin kein Polacke. Versuchs nochmal.
No, I'm not German, Wojciech. I know you'd like me to be German so you could blame me for everything happening in your life.
I think you are tho. Tough luck.
Everyone's either German or Russian in the Polish mind.
>What is the 5th column (on an anon basket weaving forum with no IDs) for 500$ please
So someone must identify you correctly to realize you have opinions of a subhuman? Woah you got me there.
They couldn't keep them firing for weeks or months but they could completely frick Russian ports, factories and cities on day one.
I think that's the point here, make it clear that if Russia tries anything they are going to bleed even if NATO does sit it out.
It would be the means to absolutely destroy a network of strategic assets, it is almost guaranteed that the US gave them a great deal on these because hitting all the Russian AA in the area would be perfect for NATO air power.
Define "operating daily".
Most likely one part will be actively used to train crews, other part will be kept in it's respective divisions and used once in a blue moon, than the last part will be mothballed for veteran crews if ruzzkies want some.
And yes i think some might end up in Ukraine.
It's more likely that the systems HIMARS replace will end up in Ukraine. Like how Poland is dumping their old tanks into Ukraine in exchange for discounted Abrams.
>ungodly amount of cash burned e
We print money.
South Korea operates 3000 SPAs.
This is insane. Such a number cannot be built in a timely fashion, nor can Poland afford it.
>Such a number cannot be built in a timely fashion
Is there a deadline or something? Why wouldn't Lockheed Martin be able to make those in the next 5-10 years?
But my Lord there is no such force
Ukraine is hitting all those supply depots with 4 HIMARS. Why does Poland need 500? Do they plan on invading Germany and half of Europe?
Go look at the krauts and tell me they didnt deserve it after their pathetic dance around supporting Ukraine.
>with 4
It's been 8 for a while, possibly 12 right now if the latest batch has reached Ukraine since it was announced on the 8th of July. They're sent in lots of 4.
Source: https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3088129/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing/
Q: Thanks a lot. Just one quick thing. What is the total funding value of this package? And then on the HIMARS, are we at about 12 that the U.S. has sent to Ukraine? Do you know of those, are these replacement for any of them that may have been destroyed? Is there any way to give us some sort of assessment about whether they still have all the others and if they're all working in battle right now in Ukraine.
SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Great. Yes, thank you. Thanks. I failed to -- and so, thank you for asking. I failed to lay out that this PDA package is assistance valued up to $400 million, so that answers I hope the first question. On the second question, yes. This will bring to a total of 12 HIMARS launchers units that the United States has provided to Ukraine, and the ones that have already been provided are fully accounted for, the Ukrainians are still using them in the fight. I know there's been some Russian reports that they have destroyed Ukrainian HIMARS systems. That is not correct. The Ukrainians have those systems and are making use of them. And yes, with this package they will have 12.
The US sent them 12, but didn’t Norway, UK and Germany send theirs as well? How many do they have total?
Norway does not have HIMARS, but old mothballed M270s which will be donated after an upgrade
>The Norwegian M270 Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS) are phased out and the donation will not affect national preparedness. Initially three units will be donated. The Norwegian systems will need upgraded, so the UK will receive and upgrade their pieces, to backfill upgraded British pieces sent to Ukraine. This is a great example of good co-operation between close allies. The Norwegian government has also decided to donate 5000 rounds of 155mm artillery shells to Ukraine, in addition to the 5000 already donated.
>As part of efforts to arm the Ukrainian forces with more weapon support, Norway will transfer three units of MLRS to the United Kingdom. Norway has a total of 12 M270 MLRS that were retired from active service in 2005, and have been sitting in storage since then. This was largely a result of Norway signing the Convention on Cluster Munitions, as well as not being able to afford to upgrade the system to fire M31 GMLRS at the time. the Ukraine Armed Forces currently possess 12 M270 MLRS units.
>https://militaryleak.com/2022/07/03/norway-donate-m270-multiple-launch-rocket-systems-mlrs-to-ukraine/
you can find other articles about this pretty easily if you guys want additional sources
M270s are based, idk why they switched the design for himars
himars: 35,000 pounds
m270: 55,000 pounds
270 launches twice thw amount of rockets.
and probably takes more than twice the maintenance. road damage, bridges, what % of work requires heavy equipment, all are important logistical concerns.
yeah i'm expecting the buy to fall to 200 or so as they run the math, but "it's minute five of the war, frick you here's 1000 prsms" has a lot of allure and they can always use unguided rockets for area fire as well.
And?
>and probably takes more than twice the maintenance
More like 5 times.
HIMARS fit inside a C-130, and are generally lighter and cheaper to operate. M270s are slightly more survivable in a counterbattery strike.
>M270s are slightly more survivable in a counterbattery strike.
Which should be a big issue if Russia wasn't so shit
Not really they will usually fire from safe range anyways. And a bit more armor won't save you from airstrike.
>individual soldiers?
Yes, because frick that guy in particular.
100 launchers sounds like more than enough to me. They could use the remaining cash to upgrade and replace existing systems
were basically funding a massive proxy war against russia directly, instead of one of THEIR proxies. we'd be stupid to not throw money at this.
Agreed. Build MOAR HIMARS. Blow up Russians.
Considering the Russian threat, send the old stuff to Ukraine ASAP.
This. The more the Russians suffer now, the less likely they are to invade actual NATO countries. And if Ukraine can somehow hang on and win outright, then maybe Russia's attempt to conquer eastern Europe (again) will die for good without any nukes being used.
I've said this before, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it until you morons actually start listening.
There is no such thing as Overkill. You may burn though all of your ammunition, infrastructure, civilians, enemy troops, friendly troops, that VIP you were supposed to protect, etc - but, if at the end of the day you are alive and the other guy isn't you used exactly the right amount of kill.
Okay. I'm going to launch nukes to combat scammers in India now.
It's the only way to be sure.
its probably some negotiating tactic
they will order a few and ask for a better price to order more
>500
Pray 250 end up "misplaced" and wind up in Ukraine, lol.
They could just manufacturer their own but NATO probably wouldn't allow that.
imagine at least half of that shit firing at kaliningrad "fertilizer warehouses" at the same time