This isn't a thread about muh morality or muh ethics. It's a thread strictly about their practicality and usefulness in warfare. I've seen that cluster bombs were heavily used in places like Vietnam and so forth but there is no where I can find where people venerated to said that cluster bombs would help/worsen the war effort. It's an incredibly common weapon, and unlike carpet bombing or other mass-destructive weapons, there doesn't appear (From my looking) to be a conclusive stance on how effective they are.
Are cluster bombs a major W, or are they just another form or destroying infantry ontop of what is traditionally used?
people parrot what they are told about "cluster weapons le bad", realistically worse weapons have been employed in the war such as buttefly mines dispenser and other UXO making weaponry
Those things are also bad by the same standard. It's ok to have restraint on unnecessary weapons.
>unnecessary weapons
> "unnecessary"
Is it OK to have "restraint" and not invade, loot, rape, and destroy your way across a sovereign nation?
Yes? I hate Russia. I want Ukraine to win but I don't want their kids blowing themselves up for the next 30 years from undetonated ordinance. It's bad enough the Russiana are laying mines. Do the Ukrainians really need to do it too?
Those kids are all going to be Russian after a Russian victory anyways, same as the all South Vietnam kids have turned into Vietnamese kids after a North's victory. I bet you still don't realize that the US prerogative here has nothing to do with "winning" this war for some prostitute colony like the Ukraine, it's about laying death, destruction and devastation in the region for generations to come.
Post timestamped hand and gun 🙂
Watch out brotha’
Tbh I'm less confident russia will survive the war than Ukraine.
The entire Russian army is on the verge of collapse and the US has barely lifted a finger
Post USSR
Post Warsaw Pact
Post why the rump state whose GDP is less than troonyfornia will magically end a legacy of failure.
>I want Ukraine to win but I don't want their kids blowing themselves up for the next 30 years from undetonated ordinance
If we choose to ignore the fact that Russia has been using cluster munitions from day one, the best and easiest way to save Ukrainians is to murder Russians invaders. The more time they are in the country, the more damage they will inflict. If the choice is making the war last longer and keeping our morals by using conventional weaponry, or ending it quicker with controversial weapons such as cluster bombs, white phosphorus or chemical weapons, then it's mathematically sound to prioritise those devastating weapons. It is both more humane, quicker and will result in far fewer deaths than letting the war last. Ukraine is not the United States. The West can pretend to have the moral high ground in war because it has the most advanced technology, aircraft and guiding systems that makes the mass-bombings and war-crimes of old moot. The West doesn't have to resort to "bad" weapons because most of the time the war is won from the sky. Ukraine is the borderline-third world nation with no navy and a ragtag air force, and is the 2nd most corrupt in Europe, only rivaled by it's invader. Ukraine simply cannot stand back and only use "good" weapons. Every other day is yet more civilians in occupied-Ukraine being murdered. It is true that controversial weapons will cause deaths further on, but the amount of lives saved by ending the war sooner compared to the amount of deaths later on will be infinitesimally larger.
>If the choice is making the war last longer and keeping our morals by using conventional weaponry, or ending it quicker with controversial weapons such as cluster bombs, white phosphorus or chemical weapons, then it's mathematically sound to prioritise those devastating weapons.
So why don't we nuke russia and be done with it? It's not just morality, it's practicality. Russia didn't level Kyiv for the same reason. It does not suit their longterm goals. They could nuke Ukraine tomorrow and win the war.
>and win the war.
Quite the opposite, that will trigger intervention and the complete destruction of the Russian army (via conventional means) by NATO.
Russia tends to implode just fine on its own.
I encourage you to read the middle sentences of a paragraph before responding next time.
Are you brain damaged?
>So why don't we nuke russia and be done with it?
Because then the war would no longer be a war between Russia and Ukraine, and become a global war that sees billions dead. Russia would no doubt actually nook and kill hundreds of millions in days. The Nuclear Taboo is well established, and is unrivaled in do-not-use-this-shit. Chemical weapons and other "bad" weapons get handwaved by virtually every power on the planet, and so allow whichever side you support to win faster, but with virtually no real long term consequences.
>So why don't we nuke russia and be done with it?
Because Russia has nukes you drooling ten-year-old cretin. Your concept of war is childish and like everything childish, utterly scornworthy in an adult.
>Russia didn't level Kyiv for the same reason.
I think you're mistaking "didn't" for "can't".
>I think you're mistaking "didn't" for "can't".
lol. they can. the did not. damn i know now how russians fell talking to the western morons..
do you mean nukes?
they can't because they can't endure the consequences.
Doesn't it open the doors to allow Russia to use cluster bombs indiscriminately since US say using it is ok?
No, Russia already does it and the US already says it's ok so that we can do it too.
I can't wait for Russia to ramp up cluster bombs production to incinerate holhols
What makes you think they aren't producing shells as fast as they can already? Still hoping they'll dip into their secret reserve and start fighting for real?
Both Russia and Ukraine have already been using Soviet-era cluster munitions. Ukraine has also gotten cluster munitions from Turkey.
I didn't read the essay but I skimmed a few things. The west has the moral highground by not launching a surprise attack on a sovereign neighbor. By any means necessary is fair enough as a standard. Is mining your own country necessary?
Ukraine is not some sand Black person hellhole where the negative IQ subhumans instinctively eat UXO. Frick off with your concern trolling.
Uxo doesn't see race homosexual. I have a different opinion than you. Why is that so hard for you?
War is cruelty, but the crueller it is the sooner it's over.
Cluster bombs are bad when americans are bombing third world countries for dubiously legal reasons, or when third world countries fight each other for even more dubious reasons.. That's been the main use of these bombs since WW2, so public perception is a bit warped. Clear cases of innocent defenders using them to defend their country are mighty rare.
Karma for indiscriminately bombing Ukraine with incendiary. Plus ziggers used cluster bombs before making it okay.
Also both Russia and Ukraine have been using cluster munitions during this conflict already anyway
It turns your arty into a shotgun.
Imagine having direct fire cannister shot.
Depends if the opponent is entrenched or not
Imagine this but the bomblets can kill an armored vehicle on a direct hit too.
>8 to 20 times the effectiveness
now add in modern artillery systems and modern fire correction methods and yeah
Note that this is Vietnam, a COIN-style jungle chase, in the static trench warfare of Ukraine the difference is likely to be even greater.
you do realize that piggers cant even reach the russian trenches yet. dropping the US cluster bombs there will only increase their defenses.. its like mine russian lines and send own meat to storm those places..
So, the butthole is clenching and the eggs are being measured?
Question #2
>piggers cant even reach the russian trenches yet
Ah yes, I suppose all those videos of trench raids were also just a psyop to tactically relocate some troops, right?
>Ah yes, I suppose all those videos of trench raids
lol. those are diged by piggers some month ago. they are fighting in grey area and pigger trenches. russian trenches are deeper and more solide.
ok russian pig shill
>reddit spacing
>esl
Back to /chug/ with you benchod.
>complaining about reddit spacing
Only newbies do this because they believe it makes them fit in, the "reddit" spacing has NEVER been a problem until you newbies were fooled into believing it was.
>diged
>reddit spacing
email spacing for people with jobs
So you care about your professional image enough, on a libanese piracy enthusiasm forum no less, to make paragraphs, but not enough to write coherent, grammatically correct english sentences? That sounds like a big, fat COPE
>piggers
russian pigs? because ukrainians have no problems
you are more moronic than i was thinking..
but you are the moron shill street shitter
what's up moronic piggy?
>piggers
The Germans memed the russians so hard they keep projecting their butthurt even to this day.
you do realize that you are very informed on this topic and that we much more wish to hear all your having to say on it..
>mobik in trench sees this coming towards them
>"Ha! No way Banderites can take my position now!"
lol. k/ike doesnt know about russian tech to disarm all cluster shit..
also frick you c**ts.
>russian tech to disarm all cluster shit..
You don't know what "disarm" means, wog.
What do you mean? Emeny shoot cluster bomb, you send more mobiks, disarmed simple as
Is there a more Wunderwaffen buzzword than "thermobaric"? "Supercavitating", maybe?
>thermo
hot
>baric
pressure
so it's a bomb that makes heat and pressure?
woah, how can such a weapon be allowed
Turboencabulation.
that gif scares me
Now imagine if that concept where applied to nukes.
>he doesn't know.
Aren't they are decoy warheads with single true one ? There are not actually multiple nukes.
Nope, every single one of them is a nuke.
>There are not actually multiple nukes.
There absolutely are.
Land-based MIRVs were banned under START, but the US and Russia both withdrew from it.
They were never banned for SLBM use.
Let's hope these shits are scary enough so Pootin doesn't do anything stupid.
Why do people keep referring to pigs for an insult? Pigs are not stupid or cowardly, and they also do not frick around. Their razor tooth kin will absolute wreck shit on random people, and ordinary pigs are no pushovers either. The same goes with chickens, they'll absolutely peck your shit out if they feel cornered.
Why did God make something so cute so tasty
Can someone explain what the graph means? I am interpreting this graph that Conventional is better than ICM. Have I misread?
Lower is better for rounds per kill. The bigger number above it is total rounds expended.
>I am interpreting this graph that Conventional is better than ICM.
It's comparing rounds expended per kill achieved. For 155mm conventional, that's 13.6 rounds spent for each kill. For 155mm cluster, 1.7 rounds were spent for each kill.
"kill" is a stretch but it's entirely possible if it hits the right place at the right angle
more likely for mobility kills via engine or making crews panic-abandon when the commander eats a small HEAT penetration to the chest
>203mm cluster munitions were likely to kill more than one person every single time you fired one
>in the nineteen Fricking sixties
Yeah, this shit's pretty much inescapable with modern targeting.
>No drone correction
>First shot load
Yeah. Even Cold War 155mm DPICMs will dominate an area with how close the first 3 shots of drone corrected 155mm gets with a cold barrel.
the question here is "how the frick are they going to deliver this shit? and how many piggers will die by it?"
The Irkutsk Aviation Plant of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC PJSC, part of the Rostec State Corporation) has manufactured and handed over to the Russian Ministry of Defense a batch of Su-30SM2 multifunctional fighters.
The Su-30SM2 fighters are a further development of the aircraft in service with the Aerospace Forces and aviation of the Russian Navy. New machines received an improved complex of on-board radio-electronic equipment. Thanks to the modernization carried out according to the terms of reference of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the combat capabilities of the aircraft have increased. In particular, the range of detection and identification of air targets has increased. New high-precision means of destroying air, ground and sea targets at a distance of several hundred kilometers have been introduced into the armament of fighters.
bump
Good morning sirs.
>New high-precision means
lol come on, not even vatnigs believe this.
Arty.
Thank you for reminding us why this entire board prays to the /k/ube for Total Zigger Death in this circus of a war.
>has manufactured and handed over to the Russian Ministry of Defense a batch of Su-30SM2 multifunctional fighters
Millions of people living in commie blocks all over Russia just felt vague existential dread out of nowhere.
Why do you browns adore Russia? Your worship of vatniks will not make you anything but a lesser variety of Black person and defiling /k/ will not make your Russian deities win.
So its now only half as good as an F-16 instead of being an eighth of one. Got it, thanks.
Didn't we already see a webm of a Russian arty position getting pulverized by a cluster ammunition or was that something else?
They got some 120mm cluster shells from turkey and I believe spain
You're probably thinking about that HIMARS strike, they explode and dispense a bunch of tungsten pellets, cluster bombs dispense a bunch of smaller bombs instead.
Right, that was probably it.
it's like a giant picking up a handful of hand grenades and throwing them at the target
sure, you wouldn't want to be the target.
but you wouldn't want to be the target of a 155 he round either.
i don't see why people are freaking out about cluster munitions
everything has a dude rate
Hey dude, what's your dude rate?
Well, they are near-useless against dug-in troops, which constitutes about 90% of the targets for Ukrainian artillery. The US is sending them because they're close to running out of unitary munitions.
Where did you get this? Because wiki says the contrary.
Well if WIKIPEDIA says so, then I guess there's no reason at all they're breaking out the cluster 155mm despite them being a taboo weapon and less effective than unitary against the dug-in troops that Ukrainian artillery mainly needs to target. Also, there's no reason why americans are shopping around for weapons overseas on a large scale, despite the usual US apprehension to this practice and preference for "buy America", and looting forward-placed stores, again, for no reason at all
> The United States has transferred American munitions stored in Israel for use in Ukraine and plans to send more soon, US and Israeli officials told CNN Wednesday.
>A US official told CNN they have moved “some” of the 300,000 155-millimeter shells that the US and Israel agreed would be transferred
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/18/politics/us-munitions-israel-ukraine/index.html
>US plans to buy 100,000 rounds of artillery ammo from South Korea for Ukraine
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/11/politics/us-artillery-south-korea-ukraine/index.html
>South Korea to lend 500,000 rounds of artillery shells to US -report
https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korea-lend-500000-rounds-artillery-shells-us-report-2023-04-12/
>less effective than unitary against the dug-in troops
Ok, you're saying wiki is lying, but where did you get your info? Pulled out of your ass?
They are much more effective against trench systems than unitary munitions and no one is running out of anything, except for you running out of dignity and posting this nonsense.
Thirdies have been taking brutal blackpills this war, western whites just tower over everyone else even when we self-immolate
our malaise would be a golden age to them
I mean there's a reason the ETERNAL anglo exists as a term
Jesus fricking Christ how fricking stupid are you? THINK you wienersucking globohomosexual homosexual.. You're in a trench, bomblets rain down randomly, where are MOST of the bomblets landing? OUTSIDE OF THE TRENCH. So right off the bat, survivability is increased just by being in the trench. There are other shelters of cover in the trenches, upon realizing they are under attack, men will dive into them. FURTHER reducing casualties. Cluster munitions will NOT collapse these dug in and fortified positions like heavy single HE shells might. So, in trenches with fortifications, which is what the Russians will have dug, those fricking cluster munitions will be WORTHLESS. Now go frick off and die you frickhead gay globohomosexual homosexual Soros feltching inbred glowBlack person maggot frick.
Has to be a troll.
Russia is a third world shithole
They don't all need to land inside the trench moron. The point of a cluster munition is to saturate the area with bomblets. You just threw a whole ton of hand grenades into a trench at once killing anyone not already in a bunker. The wide area of explosives also means that hiding around corners is less effective because bomblets land in that section of the trench too and kill you there.
Go ahead and have a nice day, save us the ammo, your end is coming soon anyway so you might as well.
There won't be any Russian kids because Russia will be divided up and sold to its neighbors as war reparations.
Ave Nex Alea. TZD cannot come soon enough.
>they are useless against sitting ducks
>they're a taboo weapon!
>but also they're completely useless!
Third worlder schizo moment.
They're much more effective against dug in troops because at least *some* of the bomblets are virtually guaranteed to land in a trench as opposed to a unitary warhead, which is LITERALLY what trenches were designed to protect against and whose effects are greatly diminished by dugouts and trenchlines.
Post wrist nafo troony
NAFO is based and redpilled, as stated by Russia Today.
It's pretty funny watching all the vatniks act exactly like neocon hacks did with the barrel bombs in syria
With the latest redundant fuzing the DPICM is at <1% failure rate, which means less than one UXO per shell.
Considering Russia was mass firing cluster rockets into Ukrainian urban centers since last Spring, and is using cluster munitions at this very moment, this is just disingenuous as frick.
Same as the harping about >m-muh DU
>there doesn't appear (From my looking) to be a conclusive stance on how effective they are.
You haven't looked in official technical writing then.
Cluster munitions are 4-5x more effective than dumb shells by mass against most targets. For comparison smart bombs are considered ~20x more effective.
;_;7
They are useful against soft targets. The bigger "win" for Ukraine, however, is that they have now tapped into a very large stockpile of 155mm ammo that was previously restricted. It's highly unlikely that the flow rate of traditional 155mm ammo from the west will be able to be increased for a year or so, so this is an effective stopgap to keep Ukraine supplied.
we must test them on Donetsk children to find out
Cluster munitions have a lot of small finicky bits, which tend to leave a lot of UnXO in the area.
Current gen American cluster munitions have an approximately 2% failure rate.
I did the math at one point, and with the stated failure rate and # of submunitions per shell, it works out to about one UXO per shell fired. Of course, Western MIC does tend to undersell themselves instead of oversell, since they'd get their ass raped in court if they were lying, so if you can assume that the failure rate is a maximum after long term storage in extreme conditions, it could potentially be even lower.
>Western MIC does tend to undersell themselves
Not for dud rates in UXOs. A lot of US servicemembers, contractors, and medical staff in the first gulf war died from handling UXO submunitions because they didn't know what it was. Granted, that was when the dud rate was estimated to be 5%.
Apparently, one medical team was seen dangling the ribbons and hanging them from stuff in their car before they all died. This was one of the 94 documented cases where they were able to positively determine it was due to cluster submunition UXOs.
Hopefully the Ukies keep that shit out in the boonies for clearing trenchlines.
We're sending them the poorly maintain old stuff. They have a dud rate of near 30% on average for the submunitions.
>2 Yuan have been deposited to your account
Post-war, what's the difference between
>Russian position with indeterminate number of mines covering x square miles
Vs
>Russian position with indeterminate number of mines and a few dud cluster bomblets covering x square miles
???
All of these areas will require extensive examination and ordinance clearing to be safer, right?
>Are cluster bombs a major W, or are they just another form or destroying infantry ontop of what is traditionally used?
They're not just for infantry, they can carry dual purpose munitions, like the ones supplied in the latest approved package.
They follow the same logic as MIRV ICBMs (when it comes to dealing with infantry) - unitary warhead effects fall off sharply with distance from the blast. Cluster munitions saturate an area and negate cover advantages (there is a very good chance that SOME of the submunitions will land inside a trench).
It's a pretty big gamechanger.
Each one of the submunitions is equivalent to 40mm HEDP with fragmentation. If one of those hits the engine deck or the turret where there isn't ERA coverage then a MBT is going to have a bad day.
Self explanatory as to what old ICMs and DPICMs will do to infantry. A shame they weren't sent during peak Wagner prisoner meat waves during Bakhmut for drone footage.
Here's a single ATACMS with DPICMs, far less of a payload than the grid square removal capability than a pod of M26 but it has range and precision. Imagine either of those raining down during the Siverskyi Donets river crossing. It allows a single M270 or possibly a pair of HIMARS to achieve equivalent effects.
German cluster bombs were super effective against Russians on the eastern front.
If you use too many at once on DCS, the sheer destruction is often enough to crash the server.
the more interesting question is has the dud rate improved. Also saw an interesting video that they will be used for drone dropping videos as each individual cluster bomb can penetrate 4 cm of steel
Hasn't Russia been using cluster bombs the entire war? Why are they butthurt about the US sending some?
Ruskies get mad over having to face any kind of opposition. Kind of funny when they brag about their hardships but b***h about it at the same time.
Cluster bombs are based. They're like a regular bomb but filled with even more bombs. Bombs all the way down.
You like bombs, don't you? Well then you'll fricking love cluster bombs.
They are good enough to be banned in over 100 countries. That's all you have to know. It's the modern crossbow.
well, it's easy for countries who don't have cluster munitions themselves, us, ukraine and russia have a significant number of their current stockpiles being cluster-type
>well, it's easy for countries who don't have cluster munitions themselves
Gee wiz Billy and why do you think it is that the countries that banned cluster munitions don't have cluster munitions?
They're good, and the downside (unexploded bomblets acting as a shitty minefield after the war) is irrelevant now that the Russians have already turned the occupied territory into an actual minefield
They're from the era before precision guided weapons where the only way to be sure you hit a target was to saturate the area that it's in. People think cluster bombs are for wiping out formations of soldiers as if troops fight in ranks like the Napoleonic era - that's not how they work, it's not what they're for. Cluster bombs are for when you can only reliably land your shells within ~150 metres of the enemy, so you give your shells a lethal radius of 300 metres to make sure you hit the enemy.
We don't "need" cluster bombs anymore because we have precision guided weapons, but they do still have some utility like shooting them at an area target like an enemy base, motor pool, power plant, command post, whatever. Or for example if 200 guys are on parade waiting for several hours while waiting Comrade General to give a speech, but that would never happen.
Ukraine lacks a lot of precision weapons so cluster weapons have utility for them but they are strictly inferior to supplying precision weapons. Cluster weapons have the advantage of being self-contained, you can fire them out of any old gun, whereas a precision weapon is only gonna be as accurate as the weapon firing it (generally speaking) unless it's a missile.
I think in trench heavy warfare the utility of precision guided munitions is a function of the capacity to identify targets, the time it takes to do this, and the amount of fire that can be deployed in a timely fashion to take advantage of opportunities before the enemy reacts.
If you know with 90% confidence that 30 enemy soldiers are concealed in a 200m x 100m dug fortification, you would just send two precision 155mm cluster shells and see what happens. Even if you had some next generation super cheap artillery that could send volleys of 40mm precision guided rounds, it wouldn't be much better than the 155m guided cluster round. There wouldn't be a substantial improvement in targeting concealed enemies within the position.
Precision guided munitions don't need to be better than the 'resolution' of your ability to target enemies.
Didn't know Poland was so based. Not only have they not signed cuck cluster ban they're making cluster bombs too.
Shell shortage status = resolved
Is it possible to clear a minefield ofat least anti tank mines with these?
i could imagine a tank driving over a dud cluster without getting immobilised.
Not really, AT mines require several hundred kgs worth of pressure to set off.
Unless the submunitions score a direct or almost-direct hit on the mine, they're not detonating it.
Picrel is an Honest John missile warhead containing 356 M134 neve gas bomblets.
They're not very effective against dug in troops in trenches with dugouts and other cover. The odds of a bomblet finding anyone out of cover are low and they have no real hope of caving in the ground. It's like sending someone to fight a SWAT team armed with a shotgun loaded with bird shot.
Well they need the right kind of target. Might not be much use against well entrenched positions, but the US has a shit load of these and not enough regular shells.
If they don't work why are they banned
Such wasted digits, but out of respect, I'll answer your stupid question. Because the bomblets have a fairly high UXO rate. So they end up leaving a bunch of deadly unstable armed bomblets behind that tend to kill civilians after the war. They are so bad about this that Congress put limits on use and export of these weapons.
The parts that don't work is why they're banned, my dumb colleague.
>unlike carpet bombing or other mass-destructive weapons, there doesn't appear (From my looking) to be a conclusive stance on how effective they are
Ignoring the fact that you worded it like carpet bombing is a weapon and not a tatctic, you seem to imply it's effectiveness is definitively proven or disproven, which, at least to my knowledge it isn't. As far as I'm aware it remains a rather contentious topic, both ehtically and from a pure efficiency/effectiveness standpoint. Any anons here who can clear that up?
Every US military veteran who was around when they were using DPICM these against conventional forces says they're absolutely terrifying.
It's a D cell battery sized grenade that kills people within 3-5m(ish, don't quote me on that exact distance) and the 155mm shells drop something like 20-80 of the little frickers.
Hell yes they would be terrifying. It's like getting 1 or even 2 entire belts of a mk47 in one rapid volley.
Cluster munitions essentially made tactical nukes obsolete.