https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2023/02/28/the-not-really-next-generation-weapons-program/
"The XM-5/7 as it turns out fails a single round into a mud test."
"also only recently demonstrated that the rifle seemingly fails, at point-blank ranges, to meet its base criteria of penetrating Level 4 body armor (unassisted)."
>Me entering this thread with the Great Satan having been defeated
Its most likely going to only see limited use like the SCAR and that's about it.
Army wanted a new DMR. This is how they get one. Initial order will be filled a given out as needed to forward facing units. M4 on Mars.
M4 on alpha centauri
its sabbath though, i thought it wasnt kosher to post on sabbath
>an industrial gem stone.
cheap as shit to make and a HARD FLEX on everyone else.
>The rifle passed the same NATO mud test that every other rifle was subjected to
did the ones running the tests get new vacation homes and cushy no show jobs after they retire from BIG ARMY?
Have we tested which weapon actions work in the vacuum of space? Smokeless is self oxidizing so it will go bang.
Gas block setting:
>N - normal
>A - adverse
>S - space
All of them work. Even revolvers don't suffer a notable amount from the cylinder gap due to the difference in pressure between the gap and the atmosphere being like a 0.01% difference on Earth vs in space.
prove it ran the mud test. the M17 program cut all the final round of testing which was the hardest once Sig sent its pricing at the second round. I assume the pricing docs were carried by hookers.
Its not a solid thing I agree with the school of generations that says the youngest millennial is 30. If you dont remember dial up and the year 2000 you arent a millennial
They have good goys on the books to run the sabbath shifts. And the best part? They do it for free.
Sigger's shills on the internet are outsourced Indians, not garden gnomes.
IT WAS CHEAPA BYA DOLLLAH!!!!
I'll give that a pass, but explain away the filming of jerking off behind the old kmart in a clown wig and butt plug that said daddys little princess. while wearing his wifes nylons. AND LORDING HIS BASE MODEL CORVETTE OVER EVERYONE.
We are very of demoralize by this
I'm remoralized, zoomer shill. SCHV chads have preached Stoners' good word all GWOT long despite every fudd, boomer and sigger and now the world is learning just in time for the return to peer warfare.
>zoomer shill
>30 is considered zoomer now
Interesting, also use more buzzwords next time
>The youngest millennial is 27
6.8 is not .30
Stop making millenials look bad you fucking fag.
On the contrary I am very BOOSTED in morale by this. It was the shittiest service rifle from the beginning and the whole contest was misdesigned. I'm delighted to see that there are still checks in the process.
Anon... It's an opinion piece, the army isn't dropping it lol.
No. It’s a sign that nature is healing. The Sig was fucking terrible
>was
Anon this is an opinion piece, the SIG still IS the army's new rifle.
It’s actually not. It’s still in testing
Yes and they've already ordered over 15,000 of them in FY23. The FY24 procurement draft should be out next month so be sure to check there to see how many XM7s they plan to order for next year. It's expected to be around 25-35k rifles in 2024 added to the 15k in 2023 we are already approaching 50k rifles. This isn't some small test run like the SCAR.
lol. fail.
only a nogunz euro ukrainecocksuck gay would get demoralized by this. we are going back to based m16/m4 and supplemental DMRs/MGs
>nu-sig not blindly winning everything
>demoralizing
Haha, go suck more dick
Thank you for your volunteer internet service, sir
Quite the opposite actually
The FN rifle was better
Why do they insist on 6 different colors?
Because it looks cool.
Gun companies are ass-backwards when it comes to manufacturing tech.
SOCOM sheenanigans, just like MRGG
At least the requirements behind it are more reasonable than the NGSW wet dreams
>We are very of demoralize by this
Second Ltn. Peter McWashington, Phoenix 161st Air National Guards, Arizona Oblast checking in. I can confirm we are very demoralize by this, my Senior Sgt. threw a fit upon hearing the news.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this thread posted already
Yes and it's a shitty opinion piece
Why would I trust opinion piece written by someone who's entire journalistic career appears to be a handful of opinion pieces about how shit the NGSW program is.
Seems pretty biased to be
Yup, Pic related the only other articles I can find by him.
>those titles
jesus he sounds like the sort of retard shit threads here
https://muckrack.com/allan-orr/articles
Generally seems to otherwise insult the Australian military for being incompetent, and the West fuck ups when it came to Syria and Russia, not being hard liners enough.
Fuck australia.
I bet I can blindfild you with fishing line.
I love Australians but I hate your fucking government, especially since yall live where everything is trying to kill you andabbos.
This is just a baseless opinion piece, there's no new info on the status of the program
>op-ed that used InrangeTV as its first source
I’m not going to say the NGWS program isn’t without problems but I’d rather save my time reading a better source rather than some slide thread
There's still time to make the correct choice
I wanna lick the muzzle device. Its like one big lollipop.
Please anon... Don't give me hope... I had almost moved on, but now the dream could be rekindled...
Based.
Though speaking seriously it's the wrong time to do NGSW at all. They should figure out PCT ammo and standardize that, then in another few years run a comp for rifles specifically for a 6.8pct cartridge only, everyone targets the same design. And designed around smart gun capabilities from the start too.
>bullpup fags still seething
the LSAT was the only real option and you fags should have known this.
This. Can we go back to a lightweight gun firing case-telescoped intermediate-caliber rounds now?
This rifle with the Sig light machine gun was always the correct answer. They needed to standardize ammo type though.
The SIG LMG only met the performance requirements by using the 80k PSI ammo, which means it they wanted to use the bullpup ammo in the LMG they'd likely need to add several inches to the barrel length. Likely making it fairly unwieldy.
they could triple the barrel length and it'd still beat the m249 tho
The MAG is a rugged lump of pure love, and is defender of the west
I still feel it would have been a better choice to take the GD rifle, and then adopt a 240A1 and just rechamber all types of 240 with the new 6.8 as a stop gap and hold another contract for the squad level MGs
Please please come back
The Spear was the right choice, bullpups are for Euros
>Bullpups are for Euros
Weapon choice should never be about avoidance because some other country has them. If a weapon is superior, we should adopt it regardless if other countries have them.
LOP too long
The goblinas in the military could never shoulder this.
And that's a good thing.
If this appeals to you, you should legit get a brain scan because something isn't right up there.
Bullpup rifle, but the MG should be a KAC LAMG in the poly cased 6.8.
Id sign a dex statement before I used a bullpup like a chink or a frenchmen.
Black Rain is taking the contract, they're mag release and bolt controls are just superior to any bullpups in the next 50 years.
that's a different gun
Beretta is making the RM277
Will it? No news about it in a year.
Based and future pilled. The only issue is people refuse to learn something different even if it has nothing but benefits for humans (lefties go back to praying to Satan)
shame they went under it was a cool gun but it just cost way too much
you realize that the actual Czech manufacturer is still going and the only thing that "went under" was the importer?
There's already another importer lined up
They hated him because he spoke the truth
Seethe harder fudd.
No country will ever adopt a bullpup again. They were a retarded idea in the 60s, and they're even dumber now that we know how much they suck.
The inability to accept the bullpup is a sign of lower intelligence. You would have been the fudd reeeeing about muh wood stocks 50 years ago.
>You would have been the fudd reeeeing about muh wood stocks 50 years ago
No anon, you're the fudd here pining for outdated trash technology because you think it looks cool. Everyone who currently uses bullpups will drop them in your lifetime. Most already have. Remember that.
Once dem darn Mattel stocks break, they gunna be running back to old WOOD AND STEEL.
Based, fuck Sig.
It's not true anon, it's an opinion piece, the army isn't changing shit because some retard wrote an opinion piece.
Ok, but this doesn’t change my opinion.
Sure, but that won't change the army from adopting it either. So enjoy being butt blasted I suppose
>/opinion/
>Nowhere in the article does it say they're dropping the whole program
What did OP mean by this?
>Opinion
As much as I love the M4A1, this is the future.
siggers on suicide watch
See
It's just a retard like yourself wishing SIG would get fucked but in reality nothing is changing.
The article unironically reads like a poster in here shitting on the NGSW
>just an article
siggers still on suicide watch
Siggers are always on suicide watch because their pistols can go off for no reason
>Civilian testing, testing Army either never did or is hiding, also only recently demonstrated that the rifle seemingly fails, at point-blank ranges, to meet its base criteria of penetrating Level 4 body armor (unassisted). True, the Army never explicitly set this goal, but it has nonetheless insinuated at every level, from media to Congress, that the rifle will penetrate said armor unassisted. Indeed, that was the entire point of the program.
The gun doesn't stand up to standards that there is no evidence the Army ever set for it, and that have come entirely from journalists trying to read between the lines in absolutely ridiculous ways. Wow, it's fucking nothing.
>For guaranteed hits, the shooter still must manually ‘ping’ the target. This takes back usable seconds and makes shooting 100% accurately on the fly, as envisioned under the program to justify the reduced available round count, an utter pipe dream.
Wow, the scope still requires pressing a button to laze the target before instantly giving you a fire solution and letting you share that target's position with your buddies. This totally isn't how everyone with at least a partially functional brain expected it to work.
>"It will fire at speeds that far exceed the velocity of bullets today, and it will penetrate any existing or known ... body armor that's out there," Gen. Mark Milley told Military.com at the 2018 Association of the United States Army's Annual Meeting and Exposition. "What I have seen so far from the engineers and the folks that put these things together, this is entirely technologically possible. ... It's a very good weapon."
>read between the lines
Dumbass. Do some research.
Which the "special purpose" classified $20/shot round probably does.
There are only two ways its getting through body armor with the cartridge specs out there.
Tungsten or an industrial gem stone. Ceramic penetrators probably can't keep their shape well enough.
Both are very expensive and don't change our position vis a vis affordably plate busting.
Its better to accept that you can't punch holes in Lv IV and instead focus on other avenues.
If you want to switch out the M4, do it for another light weight and soft shooting carbine.
At $20/shot its already several times now expensive than M993 or M995 which both use tungsten penetrators.
But again, it's classified so we don't know what it is yet. Educated guess points to a potentially new tungsten penetrator design/shape and maybe a new/harder alloy.
>now
More
Post a single source on the $20/round figure.
You can look up the official ammo procurement cost.
> FY 2023 Base Procurement dollars in the amount of $7.858 million supports the procurement of 0.354 million SP cartridges.
That's about $22.19/shot
>0.354 million SP cartridges.
>very small runs of specialty ammunition for testing purposes are more expensive
Wow, it's fucking nothing. M855A1 cost close to a dollar initially, before dropping to about the same price as M855.
I mean yea the normal ball ammo is like $2/shot right now because the lake city plant isnt running the 6.8 production line until it gets a new building in 2026/7
>before dropping to about the same price as M855.
Actually lower than last batches of mil M855 especially if you adjust for inflation.
>Both are very expensive
Tungsten is $20 per pound. Do the math.
>posts a quote that makes zero claims about penetrating body armor with ball ammo
So the wonders of the NGSW program, are that with specialty ammo it will do what in-service cartridges can already do?
>"specialty ammo"
steel penetrator is ball ammo now
Steel penetrators haven't been shown to bust plates.
Steel M855A1 was never made to bust plates.
6.8 "ball ammo" (aka EPR construction) was never released for independent testing.
see
M855A1's goals were to remove lead from the bullet and make terminal effects not dependent on the bullets yaw at impact. 6.8x51 is using the same bullet desig of steel head, copper slug, reverse drawn jacket, but that doesn't provide enough information ot draw any conclusions at all.
Steel penetrators aren’t AP.
Correct.
Basic bitch ball ammo in 5.56 is EPR.
Which means basic bitch 6.8 ammo will be EPR.
Testing done with commercial bullets proves nothing about 6.8 performance when loaded with the military bullets.
That's why there's been testing with.308 EPR using M80A1 loaded into 300 Win Mag rifles.
>he thinks that’s changing every round to tungsten core is more believable
>he thinks that generals, especially actual gays like Milley, know guns
See
We don't actually know if it is tungsten or not. It could be some crazy new super alloy that doesn't require tungsten, but is still very expensive in the early development phase that we are still in, which is why it costs $22/shot right now.
It still could just be a normal tungsten penetrator too, the point is we don't actually know.
Why do siggers claim something we don't know about which probably doesn't exist and possibly *can't* exist is actually a gamechanger we need give shekels for today?
its because SIGGERS have embarrassingly low self esteem and little man complex. they also have VERY SMALL penises, and wear their "wifes" clothes while driving a 2 generation old smoked in base model auto thats 4th owner and has a slow drain and is too cheap to get it fixed.
SIG is H&K for the social security operator set.
they looked like socks OK??
Ok sure. It can be something other than tungsten and I won’t argue that. But if it is, then it’s just as rare or rarer or takes an incredible amount of machining/manufacturing time.
There aren’t many things as hard as tungsten and resilient enough to be shot. Whatever it is will be rare and expensive and just as impractical as 100% tungsten issue rounds.
>and just as impractical as 100% tungsten issue rounds.
at the end of the day, if it's something we can mass produce in a lab, cost is irrelevant to the military if we can get tungsten performance without relying on foreign tungsten imports.
>at the end of the day, if it's something we can mass produce in a lab,
>this bro doing alchemy and shit
Ultimately in a total war scenario yes. However I doubt it’s that simple. I also doubt they are using osmium or some shit.
Most bullets fired miss their target and no scope will change that. It’s a much better use of rare materials to focus on tank penetrators and stuff like that
>Most bullets miss their targets and scope won't change that
And hitting armor you can't pen is still a miss.
>Ultimately in a total war scenario yes. However I doubt it’s that simple. I also doubt they are using osmium or some shit.
Oh wow, I bet your completely ignorant speculation is more based in reality than the decision makers with all of the facts.
>Oh wow, I bet your completely ignorant speculation is more based in reality than the decision makers with all of the facts
Oh fuck off moron. The best you gays can ever come up with is
>just trust the government bro
>military leadership is always right
They didn’t reinvent elements here. If they did, it sure as shit isn’t used for something as simple as a bullet. Either explain what the fuck they are using or acknowledge its irrational to issue AP ammo as the main combat load
Did the "civilian testing" the author mentioned use the 6.8 equivalent to the M855A1 EPR?
>It will fire at speeds that far exceed the velocity of bullets today
The fuck am I reading? Oh, this is from Commissar 'I Want To Understand White Rage' Milley. Nevermind.
Cope sigger
Nothing in the article is wrong.
The NGSW itself is a mess of a program.
The LMG itself is good, but has the issue of a light barrel profile and suppressor resulting in limited sustained fire utility. With the problem being that increasing the weight of the barrel is once again getting the gun up to the same 20lb weight of the FN Minimi, except this time with heavier and less ammo.
The rifle is probably pointless in general.
>Nothing in the article is wrong.
It's biased as fuck and either demonstrates a complete lack of understanding in procurement or was just written in bad faith.
Reality has an anti-NGSW bias.
>Number one exporter of tungsten is China
>Army wants to adopt a rifle that needs this as a source ammo
>Article has bias!!!1!1!!
bruh
if we hadn't abandoned nuclear power we could be making it out of depleted uranium
The US, Canada, and Australia all have tungsten reserves in the millions of tons. It's just not worth investing the infrastructure into developing these deposits into viable mines because it's readily available for cheap on the free market from China and Vietnam at much lower labor rates and with little to no environmental or safety oversight.
>https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2023/02/28/the-not-really-next-generation-weapons-program/
ya the article isnt that well written. The issue is the NGSW program is shit. SO despite the article being written badly, and clearly biased, everything it says is true. So fuck off. NGSW is trash.
>https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2023/02/28/the-not-really-next-generation-weapons-program/
What wildly biased, bad-faith-argued opinion piece, holy shit.
The NGSW has a heap of issues and caveats, but this shit's written like a seething PrepHoletard boomer in any one of the million and a half threads bitching about this rifle we had to suffer through. I still think the project is probably going to settle on URG-I or some mid-sized frame derivative between an AR-10 and 15, but I kinda want it to move forward just to see the fucking rage from morons like the author and OP.
that mud test? run by Karl the Kommunist
Wouldn't of made sense to stick with the SCAR-L and try to improve it? Atleast the SCAR-L would've been a better choice.
the SCAR-L is shit, should have just rolled with something closer to the actual AR-10
Wow what a retard you are.
Your aero shitpile isnt justasgood as a scat.
stupid moron conflating price with quality
>Your aero shitpile isnt justasgood as a scat.
>shit isn’t as good as shit
I believe they are
FN was dropped early in the testing. They submitted a SCAR offshoot (HAMR) and their LMG the EVOLYS.
>FN was dropped early in the testing
yeah, well maybe the "testing" was utter bullshit, seeing how much of a failure their chosen rifle was.
Well prove it then you stupid fuck
Defense contractor whistle blowers get paid $$$ when they blow the whistle.
> the federal False Claims Act, 31 U.S.C. §§ 3729 - 3733, offers that whistleblower between 15% and 30% of the total government recovery.
it IS bullshit dude. sig products in the last 5 years are extremely hit or miss quality-wise in the civilian sector. and yet you claim everything is fine? dont you see the disconnect there? and you dont find it questionable that they were chosen for nearly every other unrelated contract, like service pistol?
this "testing process" reeks. maybe its not enough of a problem to warrant whistle blowing, but it's definitely questionable.
Sig passes the tests, they just underbid the fuck out of the competition. Glock tried a GAO protest of the handgun competition and lost. The protest wasn't even on testing grounds, but because the army only selected one gun.
https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/06/modular-handgun-system-4.html
didnt know us army was poorfags
> Army actually unironically tries to not dump taxpayer money in the fire pit
> FUCKING POORFAGS
either the u.s army bought it because it is the cheapest, and therefore it's a trash rifle OR the selection process was unfair.
You are unironically retarded anon
you are coping. all sig products are enormously problematic, their mil shit is the same way. just wait
m4s on mars.
Still don't get how the MCX has problems after 3 generations and being a glorified AR18.
Except for it being heavy the Gen 2 MCX has no problems.
I haven’t seen anyone report problems with the Gen 3 either.
For the record I fucking hate SIG.
>new sig LT loses rail zero by hitting barrel with an open palm
lol
Hmmm. I wasn’t gonna buy it anyway.
I believe that because nu-sig but do you have proof?
Honestly not enough of an improvement to be worth it. The only good thing about the NGSW program was that they ordered ammo and rifle together.
caseless or telescoped ammo is the future. make it relieable. Then make it light enough to carry a shitton, make the recoil small enough to make sustained fire and followup shots easy and if that's done lets talk about punching through double masonry, engine blocks or level X glowmoron plates.
Chasing AP is always a meme. Plates cycle out of inventory so rapidly, making a stronger one is not logically difficult or just issuing a supplemental trauma plate to get the rating up. The fact that 277 pushed to the limit with some Gucci core is just able to eat lvl 4 does not inspire confidence as to the long term capability of armor pen.
>Wouldn't of
Sig employees at full force in this thread.
Nah. Not enough misspellings or grammatical errors.
The scope on the SIG NGSW literally has components Made in China. How does anyone suspect that his rifle will pull through? If war breaks loose with China, does anyone really think were going to continue to manufacturer the Scope for this rifle?
>inb4 muh berry compliance will open factories on US soil
Are you retarded?
Any military contracts need special waivers for non-US sourced components, and to get approved for that waiver you have to PROVE that a US company doesn't provide the same component/product/service and that you HAVE to use the foreign company.
Oh and these waivers need to be done every 12-18 months and if a US supplier becomes available you HAVE to switch to them.
The XM157 is not produced in China or using Chinese sourced components.
Vortex the company DOES have manufacturing in China, but the XM157 is entirely removed from that.
>his rifle
NI-HAO SIR
Anyway, all chinese manufacturing is low-tech shit, so easily replaceable in other countries lmao
The source the article uses for that is some retard boomer googling "where are vortex made", ignoring the fact it says the razor line is made in house, and then going "oh gee I mean they don't specifically say it's not Chinese"
Here's the video that's cited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zw99c_gbYs
The civilian testing is a youtube video shooting a lvl 4 plate with the civilian .277 fury, not the military round 6.8x51. Now would it pen level 4? I don't think so, but there's little info on m80a1 let alone 6.8 mil loading.
The ammo is hardened steel, like m855a1 or m80a1. The general issue ammo was never going to be tungsten core, but special purpose like 995 and 993.
The claim about the mud test isn't even true, it fires just fine when the mud is poured on the closed ejection port. It's after it cleared the first round and then had mud put on the open port did it malfunction.
Maybe, but they already had the CSASS/m110a1 which was a suppressed hk417 and those were pretty new. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/03/30/squad-level-sniper-rifle-to-complete-fielding-by-next-year/
yeah but you can throw an AR-15 into the mud ejection port down with the cover open and it works just fine
not sure why quoting literally Karl Kasarda on this is trendy though
Absolutely the AR-15 works better, but to pretend the xm5 can't take mud at all is untrue and it shows he's lying about the video he's citing. It performs similarly to every other AR style short stroke piston.
>The InRange mud gayry is not a real test,
It's verifiable, falsifiable, and repeatable. AR-15's consistently do well while AK's and pistons don't.
Doesn't matter how big a fag Karl is, the test is a test.
>falsifiable
do you even know what this means? it refers to hypothesises not tests and means it can be logically contradicted, its literally the OPPOSITE to verifiable
I thought the Razor line was made in Japan?
>to meet its base criteria of penetrating Level 4 body armor (unassisted)
Did this surprise literally anyone?
sig yids on suicide watch
>Mud test featuring cringe antifa satanist Karl where he fills the chamber and fire control with goo and then acts surprised when the rifle doesnt function.
>Retarded Texans on a range with civilian FMJ .277 ammunition (Non AP, non steel core, not the high pressure mil loads) shooting level IV plates
The rifle passed the same NATO mud test that every other rifle was subjected to
NO ONE is allowed to possess or use the military high-pressure ammunition, in testing, the spent cartridges were sent back to the military for secrecy.
This guy has written this same fucking article 4 times now and only now is he getting a critical response, pathetic chink shilling this afternoon.
>posting anime is totally proof
>The rifle passed the same NATO mud test that every other rifle was subjected to
>NO ONE is allowed to possess or use the military high-pressure ammunition, in testing, the spent cartridges were sent back to the military for secrecy.
It never went through testing yet, what the fuck are you talking about?
Operational testing is totally different from the selection testing criteria for the NGSW contract selection.
Operational testing is not the same as the functional and selection T&E the weapons went through in initial trials.
You are quoting a now defunct article from a nobody that was pasted into Wikipedia, please don't reply to me any futher.
>doesn't understand that operational testing follows the torture testing in adoption trials
beyond retarded
All true, siggers seething.
The NGSW WILL be cancelled.
Obviously asking companies to shoehorn as many arbitrary features into a gun as possible while competing to do so at the lowest possible cost just means you're going to get a bunch of vaporware shit. Keep your internal list of requirements and preferred features, but don't use that as the entire basis of the project. Let companies field their own designs, bring their own features to the table. Test everything. There should be dozens of rifles for consideration, not three.
There were dozens of rifles for consideration. The three were the only ones that made it passed initial testing. The DoD also took a much more hands off approach to this trial for the reasons you mention, which made previous weapon trials fail.
>arbitrary features
Do you know what arbitrary means?
None of the features matter for anything besides making sure sig got the contract
>none of the features matter
Name the features and tell us why they don't matter, then. You don't seem to know the first thing about the program or the rifles
>Name the features
it fires a 6.8mm cartridge at 3000 fps.
That's the only feature of the rifle, and it doesn't matter.
Thanks, I accept your concession. We can't all be winners anon
>dozens
Was it? I only heard about DesertTech, FN, and 2 others I can't remember besides the 3 finalists.
Not dozens, but it was quite a few. Granted, alot of them were rejected out of hand because they didn't even attempt to meet the requirements.
> Opinion
> Allan Orr
> Who is a random Australian
Thanks?
This is the sloppiest, most retarded hit piece I've read in a while. The authors background is full of bitching about the NGSW. I believe the program is a retarded on a fundamental level, but this is just fucking stupid.
>selected an operating system less hardy in battlefield environments
The InRange mud gayry is not a real test, but this guy cites it like a critical flaw and then goes on to insinuate that all piston guns are worse.
Then he bitches about AP capability for the round, despite nobody having the M855A1-eaque 6.8 projectile. An all together retarded argument since even he admits
>the Army never set this goal
Doesn't have any information, just vague rumor mill bullshit.
Next, he complains that it's too similar to 7.62 NATO, again with no justification and some hand waving. He tries to claim the ICSR program "failed" while ignoring that the ICSR was shut down to make way for NGSW. He brings up the M110A1 snipers and says those are assault rifles.
Fucking had waves the NGSW sight and says that you still have to shoot, so it's useless.
The NGSW is a program that is the result of caliber fanboys highjacking the actually useful LSAT program and cranking out an abortion. It was justified by rare occasions in Afghanistan where the Taliban would plink from maximum range with a PK machine gun and the Army unit only had 5.56 to shoot back. Fundamentally, it reduces the firepower available for maneuver forces to suppress and pin the enemy. It took all the worst, edge-case lessons from Afghanistan and tried to say that those pointed to the future of LSCO.
It is so wrong in many ways, but this blathering retard fucking got it completely wrong.
He's an autrailian "CT and insurgency expert" with no real backing and has apparently been crying about the NGSW for years.
This guy gets it. The XM7 in theory would make a pretty good DMR. Certainly the cartridge is likely going to be "better" than M80A1. The belt fed is going to be a great new machinegun. Lighter than the SAW, firing a round equivalent to the M240, sounds awesome. There's definitely salient arguments to be made that the 6.8TVCM in an M110 or M110A1 would be a better DMR. Ultimately having 30% more weight and 30% less ammo makes any arguments in support of this as a standard infantry rifle utterly moot. Anyone who's ever been ambushed (even by a PKM at 800m) will tell you volume of accurate fire on target wins gunfights. I would hate to have to try and break contact or move to contact with a 20rnd magazine and only 140-160rnds of 6.8wonderwaffle.
>Doesn't pen armor
The round that it will use to pen armor has not been released yet.
>we won't be able to get tungsten once we go to war with china. so ap rounds are pointless
LMAO. That's the whole point of this rifle. It is going to use a locally sourced benetrator. This benetrator will be announced at some point in the future. It's why the ammo contract basically says "the army will supply the bullets".
>w-we'll have the new AP round in two more weeks!!!!
made of what? steel doesnt work that well, tungsten is too hard to get. solid copper?
civilians have tested nearly everything you can think of. this cartridge doesn't do what they said it would.
> M855A1 analogue in .277 PISSIN' HOT won't pen level 4
Copium
The only copium is Siggers thinking standard issue rounds can beat level IV. A .300WM with M2AP which is a heavier bullet going faster than 6.8 doesn’t pen. A sharper tip isn’t going to make 6.8 pen
.A.N.G.E.
But that's fucking wrong tbh
I enjoy the king of the hill meme, butbi don't think it's that controversial to say that 6.5 is a slight improvement over .308. Like maybe 5% better transonic range
RMA stops 3 and the 4th penetrates. RMA is not a high end level IV
> made of what?
We don't know. For some reason they aren't telling us. Anyone claiming to know what it is is lying.
The cost COULD indicate tungsten, but it could ALSO indicate some super special non-tungsten alloy penetrator that is still expensive to produce in small batches but could become much cheaper and easier to produce than tungsten in the long term.
But yea, we don't really know.
>"the army will supply the bullets"
Oh no no no...
no surprise, sig shit is garbage
i feel bad for the people who spent $5k on preorders
from the start i thought it should be used for SOF units only
it really makes the most sense, its short enough for cqb but it has long range capabilities too
It's never too late
Swap on an Mlok handguard and 1913 top rail and she's one of the best combat rifles.
literally g36k
Man, what a cool looking rifle. I remember when I first saw that in the 2000s. I literally thought the military was going to space with that gun. Too bad a bunch of brown people accepted it.
>Sig NGSW Rifle Failed, US Military is not Adopting it
Where does it say that?
We're really getting ak's and ar's on mars aren't we..?
So what happened to the tax money they alloted to buy them? Guys... what happened to the tax money?!
If it turns out to either be true or eventually become true, I would be utterly unsurprised. The whole thing being nothing but a way to sell a piston ar-10 for 8 grand, plus all their other garbage guns now that they're MiLiTaRy GrAdE, makes complete sense. One garden gnome in procurement and Cohen are laughing all the way to the bank.
How is this news to anybody? Everyone with half a brain new this was a way to keep SIG on a retainer. Everyone knew that fucking 80psi was gonna burn the barrels in record time. Nobody wanted this thing anyway. It's a meme leftover from afghanistan were people with aimpoints and 14.5 inches cried about not getting hits on hajis 800 meters away.
Anon, the article is an opinion piece and has nothing to do with any decisions the army are making.
They have no plans to cancel the XM7 as of right now. OP is just baiting people like yourself who don't actually read and just want to celebrate SIG being fucked, despite that not actually happening.
In what way am I celebrating SIG getting fucked over? My stated theory is that SIG was given this contract to keep them afloat and prevent braindrain. I don't think that was stupid to do.
What I did think was stupid was pretending level 4 armor is so arcane it's not going to be surpassed in the next 2 decades and we're gonna be shooting at those plates from 400 m away with a weekly barrel change. And true, the other contestants might not have the 80k psi meme to worry about, but the entire concept of "forget about fire and maneuver, forget about suppression, we're gonna drop chinks from half a click away with our new guns and 20 round mags, day or night, jungle or urban jungle, no matter what." was utterly retarded.
The M17/18 contract wasn't enough for SIG to be kept afloat?
Personally I think it's more like a retainer. Like give them some cash so their engineers keep busy and maybe we'll need them in a few years. Not like a dramatic "we gotta save SIG" or anything.
Given what the SPEAR sells for on the civilian market, I'm pretty sure the company will be fine.
>Get government contract
>Immediately triple prices
Many such cases
Hi bocch
>Given what the SPEAR sells for on the civilian market
Not a fan of the ~$6100 price tag for a 7.62 AR?
6.5CM and 6.8x51 models supposedly coming later this year.
When a SCAR is the value option...and SR25's are cost competitive...yeah no. Yet these things sell out as soon as they are in stock.
Also super pumped for the new Steyr DMR.
(apologies for linking the homosexual's channel)
somebody give Russel the half a million he needs to make a polymer AR-10 and then chamber it in .277 Fuck You
Going to be really funny when we learn standard AR308 receivers can take 277 meme barrels with new bolts.
6.8's parent case is .308. Mags and bolt would both support it, you'd just need to change the barrel.
SPEAR has those beefed up locking lugs. I want the full 80k load next to my face.
Not just the locking lugs, they ALSO made the barrel THICC with a much slower taper.
it's literally a funny AR-10 with fat locking lugs and a chonk barrel
That's what it looks like. We can make this work. I'm sure someone has already started the process.
I thought LMT had made some 6.8 uppers for the brits to try out a year or so ago?
No idea, but if LMT isn't a fly by night operation, so that lends credence to it working.
What makes tfbtv homosexual? He's the only gun YouTuber that doesn't seem to live in a bubble.
So can you even buy the super fun pissing hot military round? Or is it another 5.7 deal where the cool ammo is gonna be LE/MIL only?
nope, no fun rounds for (you)
You will never ever buy the fun rounds, aside from the occasional 'stolen from the military' handful.
Riflelet here (I only have pistols), when I browse the rifle section on gun sites I've never understood what the advantage is of more expensive generic nato rifles is? Like wtf does this do that makes it worth 6k vs a PSA AR with similar barrel length? I just don't understand what the difference is between brands when its all the same gas system, rifle length, caliber, etc etc
its meme unicorn shit thats new and thus more expensive.
That gun is not worth 6k. You are paying for a brand.
More expensive guns are:
>Higher quality materials
>Higher standard of machine work
>Assembled by white people
>Built to a repeatable standard of quality
SIG at best meets 1 of these criteria.
I think the price will come down, it only just released a few days ago. I was thinking the real MSRP would be closer to $4k.
You're poor, we get it. Don't let your poverty blind you into believing that your shitty PSA is anywhere near as good as something like a ADM, or even higher yet, a KAC or LMT.
I want to meet the “people” who buy these
You know the guys who have an in-box unfired M17 on Gunbroker for like $8000? Yeah them.
>6.1K plus tip for semi auto garbage
SIG sold those guns basically at-cost.
That program was SIG's foot in the door.
Its also a bold assumption any nation is fielding personal armor after initial stockpiles are emptied in a total war scenario. Remember Korea.
M4s and LSATs on Mars!
The purpose of big business is to take taxpayer money and deliver nothing. This was a success for SIG.
Except the OP just posted his own wet dream.
The reality is the army is going full speed ahead with the XM7 as of right now.
Wait is this clown really citing a guntuber that shoots level IV plates with lead core ammo?
He also cites garand thumb for how the scope works, and whines that it's not really self aiming since you have to manually laser to get distance before getting your holdover.
He also sites some retard googling "where are vortex scopes made" and seeing China mentioned and then speculates "well the new scope could be chinese" as a source.
And an inrange mud test for it.
Vortex scopes are not Berry compliant. They're just as Chinesium as a Primary Arms SLX. Kek
>Vortex scopes are not Berry compliant.
You're actually retarded if you think the XM157 is made like their other non-Razor scopes.
Vortex is not Berry Compliant, only Leopold (Mk 4-8's) and Trijicon (ACOG) were able to achieve 100% Made in the USA.
Cope harder chinktoid
So what component(s) are they getting a waiver for?
Don't forget SIG of all companies, their Romeo 4Tangos, are berry compliant. In use by FBI HRT bois
>Vortex scopes are not Berry compliant
Lmao got a fucking source there buddy? You can make a shit ton of money if you can prove it.
If that's the new steel bodied issue mag, it looks like a D&H AR10 mag in FDE minus the witness holes.
>/opinion
LOL you fags never realized the "author" is a fucking ChatGPTbot used for clickbait articles.
Instead of believing an article, I'll wait until real footage of owners pops up before making my decision. But yeah, it's waaayy too fucking heavy for an infantry gun. 6.8Fury or 6mmARC, I do believe one of these will be the next generation round and I'm leaning 6mmARC.
>real owners
>$6,000
the only people who own it are sig reps and people who dont shoot
As previously mentioned, that's more than an SR25...
We only have 1 price to go on so far as far as I know. Still not sure if that's the actual MSRP set by SIG or not.
If it's just a single seller upcharging a bit because they're the only ones selling it so far, then the actual MSRP could be closer to $4-5k which would put it in line with the SR-25.
It's the dealer linked on the SIG website.
https://www.sigsauer.com/spear.html
Guns.com isn't really the best source for pricing is all I'm saying.
>put it in line with the SR-25
And that's the problem. Because the SR-25 is 10 times the gun it will ever be.
wait til it gets in people's hands at least.
A 7.62 MCX SPEAR 16" vs a 7.62 SR-25 16" would be a nice comparison to see.
I'll pit it against a PA10. The PA will win.
Then do it and get a million views on youtube you stupid prick.
All this shit talk and none of you fucks will ever actually compare the two because you're poorfag morons in the first place.
>ur le poorfag because u can't waste 6k on goyslop
ok retard.
>current sig not known as a precision rifle maker
>AR-10 proven to be reliable on adverse conditions to AR-18s
Accuracy and reliability are the top concerns in the civilian world. I won’t say PSA is better. But something 1/3rd of the price will be
Unironically mogs you.
>1 MOA
>over 2lbs lighter
>Better trigger
>1/3 the cost
>Multi adjustable gas block
Mogs me in what? I said AR10s are better
ahahahAhahahahahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAahahahaha
SiG more like SHiT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha
/k/oping and seething.
i just dont like it bro
laffed
6/10
3/10 ngmi
>"The XM-5/7 as it turns out fails a single round into a mud test."
is the sigger rifle the one with that forward placed ejection port? lol
No, that's the Textron rifle. Incidentally the ejection port placement didn't come up as an issue in testing
>Incidentally the ejection port placement didn't come up as an issue in testing
You have a copy of the report? because the tactical rifleman video they showed it in had to cut away right before the stupid location of the ejection port being right where the support hand goes.
>the tactical rifleman video had to cut away.
I rewatches it the last time you said this and no, they didn't. Unless you can time stamp it
>I rewatches it
you must go back ESL fag.
Kek, nice deflection fag. Time stamp it or get the fuck out
>Sig loses NGSW contract
>Uncle Sugar pulls out
>Sig loses all protection from Uncle Sugar
>Class action lawsuits over P320 deaths and injuries go forward.
Sigsters, the end is near, we better find another brand before its embarassing.
It's over for the garden gnomes
The reason why SIG is getting the axe is mainly due to the fact that the USA has found a new source to procure Tungsten from other than China. The "lessons learned from GWOT" is a cover story, and the brass knows that. China used to account for about almost 1/3 of our total imports for Tungsten. Tungsten is used for M995, M993, etc. in small arms, which are critical when you're fighting against a horde of geared chinks wearing level III-IV plates. Adding chinesium quality into the equation, level III even though advertised for level IV.
This reads like a retarded hit piece and doesn't site any sources. It doesn't actually say the army isn't adopting the XM7, either.
"This reads like a retarded hit piece"
Well yeah, that's because it is.
Wjy don't they use the "special" process to make the 6.8 to 5.56 and 7.62?
Would that be more cost effective?
Because that would make pic related happen.
Cool it with the antisemitism anon. How would mr Cohen make any money that way?
In all seriousness, yes they should have. I’m fine switching 7.62 for 6.8 or 7 or 6.5. They have better BCs and size/weight is similar. Switching from 5.56 to full size is dumb. I would be all over the hybrid steel case in 5.56 if they did that in a smart way and they were reloadable. In theory you just need a bolt and barrel swap. But even an entire upper would be fine. If you could through 75/77gr at say 3300-3400 fps that would be insane. Or basic 55gr at 3700 fps for .22-250 velocities. Yes you still have the downsides of the extra pressure and burning barrels. But AR barrel swaps are pretty easy and you save that money by not having to buy a whole new gun. Even if the military didn’t want it, civilian shooters would
>75/77gr at 3300-3400 fps
>55gr at 3700 fps
Projectile length may start to eat case capacity, but I'm down. 308 with 300 Ultra Mag performance.
I don’t think you’d have any issue with case capacity. You’d just need different powders or more compressed loads. Those bullets are normal for the “regular” version and same with 6.8. It’s just cranked up to obscene pressures
Wouldn't doing this to 6.5 sneed just be 277 fury?
pretty much, just a slightly different bullet.
Yeah just slightly smaller. Like I said with my first post, I’m not against the idea of a hybrid round. I’m sure it’ll have teething issues but the concept isn’t terrible. I’m against replace a soft shooting intermediate round you can carry a shitload of with a magnum rifle round that’s much heavier
This. Here's an M1A SOCOM when introduced w/ a an overcharged round. Will need a complete resign of rifle, reinforcing upper receiver and barrel chamber, bulkier bolt, etc.
Good. This rifle was very fuckin interesting, but super heavy when fully decked out, and had what looked like bad recoil. Also requires the use of a suppressor from the report. Also burned through barrels. Very cool niche rifle though. The new machine gun, on the other hand is great. I know they’re worried about ballistics of 5.56 at long ranges, and it’s time to rethink having a 20” barrel again. Literally just have 2 weapon systems. M4s and reintroduce the m16. If you need 7.62 power, either bust out the old scars, or get an AR10 variant.
The OP lied, the army isnt canceling shit.
Full Auto M4s, M16s and AR-10s would fix all the "problems" that lead to this gay gay rifle in the first place. There's still a chance that's whats actually going to happen.
No
>spend years looking
>spend billions designing
"Nah, we are gonna use the ones we got"
It happened 15 years ago, its gonna happen again.Its a slush fund
They should have just done 5.56 plastic cases and adopted a new SAW in 7.62.
Give the fancy scopes to designated marksmen and SAW gunners.
That feels like the best use of technology on offer.
277 fuck you is a cool cartridge though
https://www.sigsauer.com/xm/refunds
>https://www.sigsauer.com/xm/refunds
hey whats up with the link its 404?
No refunds, stupid goy.
🙁
So what you are saying is the DoD spent a shit ton of money on some bullshit project and achieved nothing, only to use the same basic shit they started with?
It's UCP all over again.
The whole purpose of the NGSW is purely politics. Its meant to screw over the surplus market and be a gungrab and red tape away from the civilian market by locking this gun behind the NFA and GCA. This gun's purpose is to destroy the civilian gun market. So, fuck this rifle. Its the enemy of the people.
It isn't like you can buy a surplus m4, once a machine gun always a machine gun
economy of scale for 556NATO and huge commercial market through "technically not milsurp but milsurp"
Why would that go away? It's not like people are going to stop buying it
and even if it wasn't they are all still SBRs which is a hoop many aren't willing to jump through or simply can't
>It isn't like you can buy a surplus m4, once a machine gun always a machine gun
That's not the point, you're not looking at the long-term effects behind the NGSW.
This is the most schizo argument I've heard against this rifle, congrats. I don't think anyone before has tried to stretch that far to date
No, the article is a complete joke
>It's UCP all over again.
Yes, it is UCP all over again and its a waste of more tax payer money.
>"Journalist" makes an abhorrent piece because all he did was read tittles
>"People" spread bad information because they only read the tittles
Imagine unironically owning a Sig
Imagine talking like a fag
we fucking won
>army times
No matter how much you want it to be true, it's just not
>Boomer Green Beret thinking about the last war and not the data linked future war where infantry will have to square off against armored drones.
Color me shocked. Just look at how far the engagement distances are in Ukraine, even early on. COIN is dead, no one is going to be going room to room clearing buildings anymore.
Good morning sir, now state your credentials.
>Good morning sir, now state your credentials.
Someone with a brain that is actually watching the next war unfold live.
>Someone with a brain that is actually watching the next war unfold live.
This is you:
?t=2463
>This is you:
Nah I actually served (2012-2018). Spent a lot of time either at Bragg or overseas testing pretty much everything going into the data-linked, connected future, except for the XM7. Every time we had a force on force where one side didn't have shit like IVAS, thermal fusion NVG's, or other smart shit (like even just have ATAK on those stupid Samsung EUDs), it was a complete bloodbath.
Hell my one of our infantry platoons held off an entire UK battalion sized force (2 Para) just because we could see and target them before they could even see us. You'd be retarded to not have a weapon that could take advantage of that range at the individual level.
If the NGSW pulls through and its used in a near future war. History repeats itself and its basically going to be the next M14 with the shortest service life.
thread that only comes alive at night because of course it does. Never during the day when most people are actually using their brains.
Good. We should be using M-14's anyway.
wtf happened to Sig? They used to make some of the highest quality guns around and everything they put out has to fail for the first few years before they get it right?
Sig Sauer in germany closed their factory down in 2020. and ~~*Cohen*~~ took over the US corporation. So Nu-Sig is a US company ran by ~~*Cohen*~~.
Sig Sauer in Germany and Sig Sauer US have been totally separated since 2000.
>Sig Sauer in Germany and Sig Sauer US have been totally separated since 2000.
Not like that matters anymore. Sig Sauer Germany is defunct.
Just saying, the post I was replying to seemed to imply SIG US only JUST started this shit after SIG Germany shut down in 2020. Which has no bearing on SIG US operations since they've been separate companies for so long.
Why is that? Never really followed the situation but Walther and HK are both still operational in Germany right?
>Walther and HK are both still operational in Germany right?
Yes. Unless something horrible happens. But for now, yes.
I despise what Cohen is doing. Literally outsourcing work to India... wtf...
SIG formerly SAN Swiss Arms formerly Original SIG makes great high quality products. SIG Sauer is an American Company. They are both owned by L&O holdings. L&O also owns prestigious brands such as Blaser, Mauser, Rigby, JP Sauer, among others. The American made stuff is of a rather different quality to the others.
Sako M23