Short stroke gas piston guns exist for problems that don’t.
Direct impingement + vents on the BCG make the gun more reliable. It takes thousands of rounds for it to get dirty to the point it causes issues. A good charging handle stops gas blowing in your face when shooting suppressed.
frick ya mudda
Since when do you browns call mud mudda? Fricking blackspeech is so annoying.
frick ya mudda
direct impingement ARs are piston ARs
Lets put ~~*semantics*~~ aside
Wrong.
yes, but it's still distinct from short stroke or long stroke pistons
We know, it's just vietnam bro vets decided to ak our ars. Basically if an ar15 had a piston and rod it is bubba'd the frick up and it's an overpriced piece of shit that will burn your fricking hand off just by shooting 5 or 10 rounds. Then you set it down to cool off and melt the fricking case.
All Stoner did was move the gas expansion chamber deeper into the bolt carrier compared to the Ljungman and French rifles that used the DI mechanism before him, so he could vent the gas out of the action in a closed receiver.
It is no more a piston action than the MAS49.
I have a car with this thing inside that has 8 gas expansion chambers, not really sure what else to call them.
Cute
No one likes your content, Karl. Shill somewhere else.
Roller delayed blowback is superior.
This. Throw the cope AR18 clone fad in the trash. Embrace rollers
>fad
>when your meme gun system stopped being relevant before you were born and was always inferior in every single way to gas operation
lmao hey thought experiment what is the current issue rifle of Germany, the country that came up with roller delayed blowback?
Considering how well RDB held up despite seeing no development since the 50s it probably actually would be superior if it would've been more popular and gotten more iterations over the years.
But the US chose the AR so that platform got all the love.
The US chose the AR-15, but HK didn't move to its gas system, they chose short stroke piston. Your post is nonsense.
May the inbred Pakis bless us with an updated G-3
Yeah /k/ is getting lost in the weeds with a specific guns issues. A 1970s AR-18 probably isn’t as good as a SR-15 either. This isn’t proof of SSGP being bad.
>inbred pakis make inbred design.
The least they could have done is taken a page out of Spuhr's design and made the stock inline. Reads like the emaciated norks smashing together random aesthetic features on their firearms and vehicles without any idea of why those features were implemented in the first place.
I'm more interested in their BW21 since it's still roller delayed but is more than just a frankengun: https://files.catbox.moe/iqo44b.mp4
The picture is above is the BW-20 I think.
The whole stick of the 20 is to give it AR style ease of operation ambidextrous, while retaining the Roller delayed mechanism.
kek the only benifit of rdb is its cheap
RDBs aren't cheap they're like $1100
We talking roller delayed blowback or the keltec rdb?
yes
Compare the RDB's price to anything that isn't an AR.
You're always going to win the price argument if you use the AR as your example. MFI produces BCGs for hundreds of manufacturers, five or six factories forge the receivers for every AR brand. It's simple economies of scale, it has nothing to do with the design.
>Compare the RDB's price to anything that isn't an AR.
you know we're talking roller delayed blowback, and not the kel tec RDB, right?
LOL. That's what I get for not reading the whole thread.
Roller Delayed Blowback has absolutely 0 advantages to anything, it might as well be a simple blowback.
Genuinely one of the worst designs ever made, not surprising since the krauts are literally incapable of coming up with anything that works they are only good at making stuff designed by non-germans.
They somehow are bong tier at creating new designs but somehow worse.
>I’m a dumb fricking moron
Could have just saved us the paragraph
>doesn't give a single argument to why RDB isn't shit
Ahem, it's a drop safe action because it has terrible lockup, which leads into bad accuracy (unless they frick with the rollers defeating the only advantage to Roller Delayed Blowback)
They have worse recoil impulse without having a stupid long action than anything that isn't simple blowback, they by design beat the shit out of themselves. All these disadvantages for the advantage of being relatively cheap to make, which is exactly what everyone who adopted roller guns wanted which is why they were popular with poor countries and police departments. Remember when Germany adopted the G3 they were dirt poor, the Spainish have been poor for centuries, all the third world shitholes were also poor I can not think of a single wealthy nation that adopted the G3.
As for the civilian shooter every roller gun is significantly more expensive or equal in price to rifles that outclass them im every single way.
Wrong again. Sorry to hear about your PTR Tyrone in South Carolina messed up though.
Never even mentioned PTR, stop being a krautloving Black person.
The problems you mentioned are wrong regardless. Do you even own guns?
I do, and you either don't or are intentionally being an ass, saying "you're wrong" doesn't make you right, I presented the issues it has and saying "wrong" doesn't prove anything. I doubt your knowledge of guns and you have not done a single thing to convince me otherwise, so please kindly, have a nice day.
Don't bother man. Just tell him to post'em.
I bought a PSA JAKL. None of the issues AKs have are present on the JAKL. Yet they are both long stroke pistons. Are you guys sure the HK RDB guns just aren’t outdated more so than the RDB itself being bad?
I thought that G3s were actually quite accurate? I was under the impression that the big disadvantages of RDB were that they mangle cases and leave the chamber just as dirty as, if not even dirtier than, a DI AR.
You have to be trolling.
The G3 is accurate enough, as in it's less than 4 MOA but to get it more accurate you have to do what the PSG1 did and essentially make the rollers not rollers. A standard issued G3 was on par with all of it's contemporaries in accuracy but when it comes to accurizing it you need to do far more to it than most rifles.
short stroke piston operated roller locking is even better.
>Karls wifes boyfriend actually mud tested this gun first. This is Karl engaged in his sloppy seconds fetish.
>eceleb video
vs
>military trials
Hmn, yeah, I’m sticking with short stroke gas pistons
Oh no! Sig didn’t pay to win in the youtube video!
Frick Sig, the XM7 is an abomination. Trials that were done decades ago, zoomer.
Using that as an example to show how rigged trials have always been. Balding millennioomer
I have a full head of hair; what’s more, I also have a large benis and normal T levels. Sorry about your luck, zoom.
XM7 is gay, ssgp is generally more reliable than direct impingement. My AR’s are all SPR types, though, because DI is generally affords more precision than gas piston.
Its more reliable how? Because a 1980s M16 did bad in the cold? The Colt Canada C7 is more accurate than M16. Putting R&D into things makes it work better. Who woulda thought.
More so about unlimited money being poured into whatever their heart desired
>1980s
Try FN, Knights and Block II
Ah yes the fearsome Canadian Army
>Ah yes the fearsome Canadian Army
Ah yes the fearsome Norwegian army. See, we can both do that game.
p sure Norway has a more respectable military record than Canada
Maybe. What are you basing that off of? Neither has done anything the last couple decades to merit much of a reputation either way. Canada has the advantage of the US next door and being closer with Britain so they can get better equipment and training more easily.
However, c*anadians, deserve a nuclear holocaust so I won’t go out of my way to defend them
>the fearsome Canadian Army
Black person you tried arguing your point using Norway’s army. You have zero room to talk
maybe he’s talking about the SCAR tests from the 2000’s which showed gas piston guns performing significantly more reliably than M4’s
It doesn’t help that the only DI gun brought to the table is the AR. If the SCAR, Grot, ACR, etc (which had infinite money to play with) were all DI it wouldn’t make a difference besides saving weight,having less weight forward, and blowing debris out of the gun thanks to vents in the BCG. AR problems are AR problem.
Only reason short stroke gas piston is the “thing” is because the HK416 did so good thus it started a cycle.
Besides goylitary trials can someone explain the benefits of short stroke gas piston over DI.
More so a piston in general thing, but tunable gas is a selling point for me as an individual consumer. BUT I don't have a suppressor or the 2k+ disposable I would need to pick up an XCR/SCAR/ACR/BREN etc at this point. As for the military? Who knows. At the small arms level, as long as it has some degree of rugged reliability I wouldn't think it matters too much what gun you buy beyond unit cost and updating with current trends or tech advances (think ambi receivers, throwing suppressors on rifles as standard issue, an argument could be made for optics as I've heard good things about the VCOG). From there it seems like a politics/"what native manufacturing do we want to support?" question.
You can get a Bren for like $1600, jus’ sayin’
7.62x39 pmag is fricking ugly
holy shit
That’s not a pmag, it’s the proprietary CZ x39 mag
If I was gonna blow $1600 on a rifle like that, I'd at least get something interesting like an AUG.
moronic
Look at the failure rates, moron. I’m not appealing to some corrupt bureaucrat’s hard-on for the M14, I’m talking about failure rates. No, I do not think they sabotaged the M4 in those trials.
>corrupt bureaucrat’s hard-on for the M14
Acknowledges this happened
>No, I do not think they sabotaged the M4 in those trials.
But now the idea of it happening again is impossible. Ok.
The M16 was sabotaged in original trials. Why couldn’t that happen again? Why wouldn’t the people involved want new shiny toys? They are never using them so it doesn’t really matter what they pick. Adopting something makes them look useful. If you don’t think they are getting kickbacks (which can be jobs or speaking fees later) you are ignorant
Its common knowledge that the stoppages that occurred during that test were caused by incorrect use of the burst setting on the original M4.
Still no real counter to this epic truth bomb. Fight back /k/
>Thinking the 416 started the short stroke piston trend
>The asinine nomenclature that you can only make sense of if you already know what it is
Why not Indirect Impingement, from an etymological level it makes more sense.
>$1600
With no stock, pistol brace, and the world's tiniest handguard that everyone immediately replaces. Add $500 to the cost; if you're going to shill for an admittedly cool rifle at least be honest.
The handguard certainly needs replacing, it's true. It comes with a buffer tube adapter, however, and you can throw on an AR stock for the cost of a buffer tube and a CTR or whatever you prefer. $500 is overstating it
The $1600 Bren 2's you're talking about are all pistols, CTR is a no-go unless you want to become a felon. The HBI handguards are $300, a pistol buffer tube and pistol brace (or an AR buffer tube, stock, and tax stamp) gets pretty close to $500 after taxes.
The most expensive HBI handguard is $270, so sure $300 after tax. I pinned and welded my Brens to avoid the tax stamp, free. A buffer tube is $10 and a CTR is like $40. We’re splitting hairs now though
If you get one you want the pistol version fyi, carbine barrel profile is heavier
A few benefits of short stroke compared to DI...
>Suppressability.
No one's saying DI can't use suppressors, but AR's spawned a market full of varying buffer weights, varying spring weights, and an entirely new type of suppressor (flow through) to cope with the complexities increased backpressure creates for ARs. Adjustable gas regulators on piston guns are all you need to switch from suppressed to unsuppressed use - it's simpler. And to keep this as short as possible, surely you know that adjustable gas blocks on ARs are anything but recommended for a good reason.
>Better for regions with varied climates.
I've shot my ARs and piston guns enough to know which gets caked in carbon and which gets a light dusting; ARs can run dirty, as long as they're lubricated, that's part of the design. But in regions where there can be massive temperature and humidity changes, the effectiveness of a lubricant can be severely diminished, possibly bringing an AR to a hault. Piston guns run dry but want to be cleaned, ARs run dirty but want lube. Again, this makes a short stroke gun a simpler solution for most countries.
>They're simpler to design around varying barrel lengths, multiple calibers, and different cartridge loadings.
Take the SCAR as an example, from a 10" barrel 5.56 to the 20" barrel 6.5CM, the gas block is in the same spot and all that changes is the little gas jet within the gas block. This maximizes parts commonality and simplifies production, lowering costs. Not the case on ARs, where a simple barrel length change (not to mention caliber changes or subsonic vs supersonic ammunition) requires a different gas block position, gas tube length, different buffer weight... again, the short stroke is the simpler option.
This isn't to convince you that SSGP > DI. Only to give a few reasons on why countries go with short stroke for their domestic rifle designs, a decision that started LONG before the HK416 was adopted.
Now I wonder how a 416 (or even a Caracal) would do in the jungles of Vietnam
Maybe France can try to recolonize and let us know.
>No one's saying DI can't use suppressors, but AR's spawned a market full of varying buffer weights, varying spring weights, and an entirely new type of suppressor (flow through) to cope with the complexities increased backpressure creates for ARs. Adjustable gas regulators on piston guns are all you need to switch from suppressed to unsuppressed use - it's simpler. And to keep this as short as possible, surely you know that adjustable gas blocks on ARs are anything but recommended for a good reason.
Not the case whatsoever, traditional suppressors having a negative effect on a gas operated rifles performance isnt unique to DI.
Nor are a vareity of weights needed for ar15s needed to function with a suppressor, thats not the function of buffer weights at all in an ar15 anyway.
Adjustable gas blocks arent needed on an ar15 with a properly sized gasport.
Even the most advanced ar15 variant the sr15 doesnt feature anything special regarding the gas system to function with a silencer, simply a properly sized gas port and a run of the mill carbine buffer tube and spring with a standard h2 buffer.
>Not the case on ARs, where a simple barrel length change (not to mention caliber changes or subsonic vs supersonic ammunition) requires a different gas block position, gas tube length, different buffer weight... again, the short stroke is the simpler option.
Changing a gas block position on an ar is trivial, a different gas tube and a different sized gas port is all you need, again there is no truth behind the statement that you must change the buffer configuration or weight to make them reliable, a properly sized gas port regardless of barrel length and gas system length will run on a lower of any configuration. Ive used carbine, rifle and a5 systems interchangeably with 11.5, 13.9, 14.5, 16, 18 and 20 and never ever had a malfunction suppressed or not.
Short stroke is better in very short suppressed applications tho.
The basis ("just build it right") rings pretty hollow. If you actually tune your gas system for suppressed use to get as little gas back into the action as possible, it won't run unsuppressed. Tuning your gas system for unsuppressed use, however, will run perfectly fine while suppressed.
The "middle point" that you think you're describing where an AR works both suppressed and unsuppressed isn't a middle point but, in fact, is just having it run reliably while unsuppressed. SSP can be tuned for either, on the fly, with the flick of a regulator.
All of these alternative AR gas block designs (Gemtech GVAC, as the most recent example), adjustable bolt carriers, and a wide swath of buffer and spring weights.. if they didn't make a difference then they wouldn't exist - there wouldn't be a market for them. You're willfully blind to how those things can affect an AR if you deny that.
>Changing a gas block position on an ar is trivial
Trivial for a civilian lego-ing their next AR build, sure. For a factory producing all of their own parts this means:
- different machines to manufacture different gas tube lengths
- setting up production workflows for different barrel profiles
- different sized tooling for drilling and deburring gas ports..
The latter two of which are design changes to the most expensive and critical part of a rifle, something you frick around (and frick up) as little as possible. the AK-100 series has something like 97% parts commonality between all 6 primary models for a reason - the less a factory has to frick around with between different designs, the fewer issues there can be. To restate, the basis of my answers in
was that for a country designing a new rifle family, SSP is simpler than DI.
>it rings hollow
Only if youre arguing in bad faith.
Simply sizing a gasport correctly is all you need.
Any kind of "tuning" is purely for the experience for the shooter, not for the reliability of the weapon, built properly an ar will be reliable both suppressed and unsuppressed and wont have an excessive bolt speed either. All of the other options on the market arent inneffective by any means, that doesnt mean theyre a neccesity but just another mousetrap bringing novelty to a saturated market.
Ive got much more experience here than you do. My ars dont have adjustability at all and 416 doesnt have an adjustable gas block either, and its perfectly reliable and pleasant to shoot, how is this possible without an adjustable gas block?
Im not about to go spend 500 dollars on an adjustable 416 gasblock to maybe see a performance gain here.
Yes, HK made a part more complex and expensive to produce because it doesn't do anything, your skepticism of an adjustable regulator making a difference definitely doesn't ooze inexperience. Everything from something as old as the FAL to modern military rifles like the Bren, Grot, and Spear have adjustable gas systems for funsies.
The "experience for the shooter" as you say is not without merit; having less recoil allows for faster followup shots. And before you argue that your rifles are already low recoil as is, the undeniable FACT that less gas = less recoil means that adjustable systems have inherent value.
Never did I say it was impossible nor that companies don't do it already. Only that doing so is undeniably extra work, extra tools, extra jigs, extra time, extra testing, and extra money. Money, time, and materials are not trivial for businesses with budgets and deadlines. Using some of the most giga-funded AR manufacturers that profit massively both off the MIC and civilian sales only supports my point.
People hail the fact that many countries are giving up their bullpup rifles in favor of standard configuration rifles as the impending death of the bullpup; but any reasonable person can't deny the bullpup configuration has advantages. I would ask you, then, rather than simply shooting down my arguments to provide some real reasons as to why the SSP system is so prevalent in the vast majority of the world. It's not a 'fad' that started with the 416.
>HK made a part more complex and expensive to produce because it doesn't do anything, your skepticism of an adjustable regulator making a difference definitely doesn't ooze inexperience
HK didnt offer the 416a3 with an adjustable gas block, and the aftermarket one sucks, please try reading the thread.
Ill take my own experience here because I own both a 416a3 and a silencer, and you clearly dont, and everyone on /k/ who has used the burk gas block didnt like it, and ill take their word for it over yours.
The gas system on the FAL was never designed with suppressors in mind, nor is the Grots for that matter, it only has two settings.
Less gas does mean less recoil, it also means decreased reliability after a certain point.
>Using some of the most giga-funded AR manufacturers that profit massively both off the MIC and civilian sales only supports my point.
Really hard to decern any sort of point here at all, sounds more like cope trying to justify why an ar15 is somehow more expensive or complex than any number of ar18 derivatives.
>I would ask you, then, rather than simply shooting down my arguments to provide some real reasons as to why the SSP system is so prevalent in the vast majority of the world. It's not a 'fad' that started with the 416.
I never claimed the 416 or the short stroke gas system was a fad, I posted two rifles that belong to me that feature them in this thread, im simply refuting your inncorrect claims about the ar15.
Why youre hanging on to OPs gay thread premise idk, that homosexual bailed on his bait thread a long time ago.
>different machines to manufacture different gas tube lengths
- setting up production workflows for different barrel profiles
- different sized tooling for drilling and deburring gas ports..
These are legitimately trivial problems anon, are you really suggesting that machinists have a hard time changing to different sized cutting tools?
They do it constantly, everyday on the same machines.
Strange how colt, FN, KAC and Daniel Defense can manage this on a mass produced scale without an issue at all, though some of them like DD are guilty of using oversized gasports to cater to civilian use of terrible cheap ammunition.
DD has since rectified this problem, 2015-18 barrels were generally the era where they did this.
>and an entirely new type of suppressor (flow through) to cope with the complexities increased backpressure creates for ARs.
Source that these were specifically designed with ARs in mind? I have owned a model designed for the AK series and it dates back years before the current flow through craze. Sold it because it wouldn't stay on - poor locking system
>Source that these were specifically designed with ARs in mind?
they aren't. i guess you could say "they are" in that most guns in america are ar15s so obviously the suppressor is designed with them in mind.
the whole reason for flow-through suppressors is that they're just a better design. it's like a venturi, or a bore evacuator on a tank. pull the gas out of the gun and you've got less fouling, less time for heat to transfer into the metal, less backpressure (so the gun runs reliably without changing the gas settings).
the reason they're more of a thing now is just that the lasers for SLS printers have gotten so much cheaper recently that the manufacturing cost is much lower than it used to be.
The US hopped on that train way after Euro manufacturers did, though.
SSP is barrel length agnostic.
Unlike long stroke systems that move important carrier weight into the bolt carrier extension, and DI that relies on precise gas pressure, SSP firearms have a lot more room when cutting down barrels or using many interchangeable lengths.
>C7 is more accurate than M16
you know it is the same gun right?
The barrel is their proprietary steel but more importantly it gets tighter as it gets closer to the bore. They’re supposedly more accurate. Point being 5 billion dollars being thrown at anything can help overcome whatever minor issues there are.
I made this post after shooting a suppressed MCX and realizing it seemed just as gassy as my daniel defense. The downside of DI just seems to be outdated or more to do with the AR15s design.
>The barrel is their proprietary steel
Ah yes, refined pure leafonium made barrel.
>mcx just as gassy as my dd
This.
>downside to DI is outdated design
???
DI is a newer design than pistons. Don’t let marketing convince you of muhhh oUtdAteD DeZine. That’s moronic. It’s a functional system
Based.
>millennioomer
Is this the peak of culture evolution? Just add -oomer to literally anything and everything? Fricking idioomers.
I wouldn’t say rigged
The rifle is definitely the most mediocre of the 3, but…
SIG by a long shot had the best LMG (the more relevant part)
GD/beretta fricked themselves with the moronic NO SAW/LMG LOL plus meme bullpup
Textron/HK offering was innovative but, complex? Weird ass ejection forward of the magazine always seemed problematic
seeth glock gay.
>drops pistol
Not a Glockgay, I own one single Glock. I have zero brand loyalty
And army trials also concluded that the M14 is better than the M16. Do you agree with that?
Military trails also selected the M14, UCP camo, and the veggie omelette MRE
What did every other country's military trials pick, anon?
Hmm
The UK has literally been using Armalites longer than the US has.
A gun that works and is made in a relatively nearby country instead of having to ship it across the ocean since all of their arms factories have already shut down.
UCP was part of no trials, tard
All over Brush was declared the best of trials, then the bureaucracy decided UCP was a swell idea
Just because the military something doesn't magically make it "le best!".
This is the same military that adopted the M14 a decade after they fought a military using the StG 44.
Yes but there were no tests indicated the M14 performed more reliably than its opponents. In this case, the anon you're replying to is basing his decisions off of military testing trials. Big difference.
The trials that people talk about, like the Carbine Extreme Dust Test (from pic) are faulty for a few reasons.
The CEDT is one of the biggest done and most heavily referenced so I'll focus on it.
First is that they used off the production line selections for the M4 and HK416, but specialty production for the SCAR and XM8. Creating an extremely unfair playing field.
As well, they tested the M4 as is, with the legendarily terrible aluminum GI mags. Where almost every other firearm used either had a proprietary magazine, or one that was of an improved model.
The M4s of course, used the non-resetting burst fire mechanisms. So if there was a problem where the burst fire only shot 2rds and the next pull released 1 shot, you had a 'double stoppage'. This was an issue none of the competitors had to deal with.
The disparity between Test 1 M4 and Test 2 M4 was never addressed and significantly calls into question the sampling bias between the two tests and the sets of rifles in them.
Finally, it only counted for dusty conditions. Not muddy, cold, etc.
Cope lol. There's a reason militaries around the world switched to short stroke piston. Why is it so hard for you to admit that one mechanical system is better than another mechanical system? It's crazy how you attach your emotions to an concept regarding firearms lol.
Because it is simply an inferior, neither fish nor fowl, method of actuating a firearm that is treated as the second coming by grass-is-greener types.
Anything that it is meant to be good at, DI or Long Stroke is superior. It is extra complexity and weight for no gains on any end.
Its popular because anyone developing a firearm since the 1960s has to focus on differentiating their product from the AR15 and AK74. And using the short stroke piston is the easiest way to do that from the get-go.
piston exists so you don't get gas blasted by your gun when it's suppressed
that's the only reason for it to exist
>piston exists so
but that isn't why it exists. Literally nobody even used suppressors when piston rifles got adopted.
You're absolutely correct, however, it has been co-opted for that purpose because otherwise it's not better or really even equal to DI otherwise it would've surpassed DI and become the standard when really it's more like an oddity even amongst more expensive and better built rifles
As it stands in the modern age piston should be the choice for people not wanting to get gas in their face after a magazine or two when suppressed
Even then, BRT gas tubes if you run permanently suppressed or Rifle Speed adjustable gas blocks of you take the can on and off negate any advantage short-stroke guns might have
Just use a better charging handle. Short stroke doesnt not make gas in your face just makes it not as bad
DI guns don't brap you if they're gassed correctly. also piston guns are louder than DI guns
>HK 416 adopted by the Norwegian Army because plain jane AR systems fail freezing tests
>SVT had a proven record well before same
Long stroke still master race
HK could have made DI work in the cold.
Kraut space magic is just a meme anon
>DI doesn't work in the cold!
oh boy, better tell that to Sweden who adopted a DI rifle and had it work great. Better warn Denmark and Canada too, both of which have far more arctic territory than Norway 🙂
>Sweden who adopted a DI rifle
No, the Sako AR is short-stroke.
>Denmark
Whose arctic troops famously use bolt actions instead
>No, the Sako AR is short-stroke.
They haven't adopted that yet.
Look up AG42. DI works fine.
The AG42 was a moronic design for a combat rifle anyway
Haven't been adopted yet but will be soon enough.
Interestingly, both DI and short stroke systems remain popular both in civilian and military circles. Should basically tell everyone that both systems are fine, and have certain advantages over one another, and it's up to preference on what features you like. DI makes the gun lighter, and softer shooting. Short stroke improves reliability (not really something your average end user might see), is easier to clean and probably makes it easier to adjust the system for different barrel lengths and suppressed/unsuppressed.
So no one has been able to deboonk any of this. Good job /k/
You know all piston AR's, FAL, are copies of the tokarev gas system.
The prototypes for the Tokarev and the FN49 were developed at basically the same time.
Even before them, Mannlicher had developed short stroke gas piston systems for his rifles. Although, they were closer to the 'Gas Tappet' concept in practice.
NTA but here's a the FN49 prototype from 1936 - very similar gas system to what would end up on the FN49.
I think more people attribute the design to Tokarev, even if they were developed around the same time, because of how many more SVT-38/40's were produced. No different than people attributing the long stroke piston system to the AK, even though there were designs that predated it.. one gas system design or another were copied because people had the more prevalent predecessors on hand to use as inspiration, thus the credit of one system or another was given to them.
Yeah, its extremely rare for anything to be developed light years ahead of comparable tech elsewhere.
The practical short stroke piston rifle isn't rocket surgery, and has pretty clear incentives to create. Letting you use far smaller forgings for your bolt carrier, compared to an attached piston, for example.
Not necessarily the case.
The SCAR has a frickhueg one peice bolt carrier, even larger than an ak, even if you include the riveted on oprod.
True, there's always an exception.
Though in that case it was done simply to make the bolt carrier itself extremely heavy as a way to ideally let it smash through anything preventing action from opening.
Im sure they were keeping in mind its simplicity too. No need for an oprod, oprod return spring when its integral to the carrier, where the scar used a short stroke gas tappet rather than a traditional short stroke piston like the g36/416.
Wish the white self regulating gas piston would make a comeback, closest thing ive found is the self cleaning system found on the LWRC Repr.
>Wish the white self regulating gas piston would make a comeback, closest thing ive found is the self cleaning system found on the LWRC Repr.
What's self regulating about the Repr? It has an adjustable regulator. The G36 has a "self regulating" gas block, but that too was total BS because the 416 takes that exact same design but adds on an adjustable regulator, clearly it can't regulate itself without manual intervention if that was needed.
Nothing, its just visually very similar to a White gas piston.
The vented 416 gasblock is perfectly servicable though, the overgassing the 416 is infamous for is due to the original unvented block, I dont have any experience with the factory adjustable blocks for the A5 variant, and I havent heard much good about the aftermarket adjustable blocks for the A3.
I think the White system is too smart for its own good.
Like, yeah, you can feed an M14 anything short of a spiked case and the White regulator will do its job.
But, how often is that needed for the relative complexity and precision manufacturing necessary?
Like ive been arguing with this other anon that insists that a short stroke piston is more simple than an ar, personally id trade some manufacturing complexity for a simpler weapon as an end result.
There may well be a good reason besides cost why the white system isnt used, Ibe just never found one.
shit literally doesnt blow in your face unless slather the BCG in oil like I did once or use a silencer
>weighs 6lbs
>slightly overgas and become more reliable than lepistone
nothing perssonel
Colt, which was the sort of de facto go to rifle for genX and boomers just referred to their system as “gas operated” and not direct impingement,
Piston driven ARs exist
Yeah and they choke in mud test
Ah prefer the internal gas piston nomenclature myself
>super finicky action
>creates space above bolt that's almost perfect for nasty brass over bolt malfunctions to get jammed up in
>already dropped by US military due to how weak the action is
>only rifle to use this type of action, all the other rifle engineers avoided it for good reason
>stock doesn't even fold
>already dropped by US military due to how weak the action is
wdhmbt
>already
He's a millenia old vampire. The decades long adoption and use of the M16 pattern is similar to what a week and a half would be to us.
>finicky
Uh it’s super reliable and unlike gas piston won’t destroy the entire gun if overgassed.
>already
It’s the longest serving general issue rifle in US history.
>only rifle to use this action
Uh if you ignore the sr15, mars-l, and the hundreds of civilian manufacturers making rifles with this action. Unlike dogshit piston guns that always suck, the AR action is perfect and therefore copied directly, rather than modified for no reason.
>folding stock
Utterly and totally useless. There’s a reason nobody cares about losing this pointless feature when moving to the hk416.
>super finicky action
Outright lie
space above bolt that's almost perfect for nasty brass over bolt malfunctions to get jammed up in
Something that doesn’t happen
dropped by US military due to how weak the action is
Another lie
>>only rifle to use this type of action, all the other rifle engineers avoided it for good reason
Which other of these “rifle engineers” avoided it? Give me names and tell me why they are better
doesn't even fold
Only true thing you said but folding stocks are mostly memes. It’s nicer for transport and driving around but if you have any chance of getting shot at you’ll have the stock unfolded.
>super finicky action
Lie.
>creates space above bolt that's almost perfect for nasty brass over bolt malfunctions to get jammed up in
AR15 issue not a DI issue.
>already dropped by US military due to how weak the action is
Lie.
>only rifle to use this type of action, all the other rifle engineers avoided it for good reason
Engineers stopped being trailblazers 20 years ago. HK makes a piston AR15 that works great so everyone followed that.
>stock doesn't even fold
AR15 issue not a DI issue.
OP is based. DI is master race. I have a suppressed piston gun too. If you get a good charging handle for DI it mitigates gas to the face at least half.
>If you get a good charging handle for DI it mitigates gas to the face at least half.
I have some noname GI CH probably made in Vietnam. I didn't even notice when my AR started piercing primers - no gas in the face whatsoever
>Indoor plumbing exists for problems that don't.
>Shitting directly into the outdoor sewer drainage system is more reliable.
If guns are too dirty for you maybe take up airsoft.
I like my guns like my race, originating from the northern hemisphere and going poo in the loo
No one in the southern hemisphere designs guns. South Africa doesn’t count since it’s white making those
If by this you mean the shitheaps Taurus produces aren't "guns" then yes
DI:
>more accurate
>lighter
>cheaper
>more reliable in the field (it literally cleans itself)
>easier to maintain
the list goes on and on
>A good charging handle stops gas blowing in your face when shooting suppressed.
Tell me you haven't shot a gas checked rifle without telling me you haven't shot a gas checked rifle. The charging handles, all of them, do next to nothing compared to something like a bootleg bolt carrier or an adjustable gas block.
Yeah but what do they do compared to not using one at all?
Effectively nothing in my experience. They will direct a tiny amount of gas away, but 99% still goes in your face. It's not an issue outdoors but good lord you will be choking on smoke indoors
This. Preventing the gas from getting trapped inside the receiver in the first place does far more.
>A good charging handle stops gas blowing in your face when shooting suppressed
For like 3 rounds
a good charging handle goes on the SIDE of the gun. Only a fricking moron would put it at the rear of the receiver.
>a good charging handle goes on the SIDE of the gun. Only a fricking moron would put it at the rear of the receiver.
You know the HK-416 and XM7 have the same positions for the charging handle right?
someones insinuating i shouldnt own a particular type of gun. that gave me an idea. get that particular gun.
whats the best short stroke gas piston gun
MCX but dont get mut in it
Minor spelling mistake
You definitely shouldn't have a nice day.