>Russian electronic warfare on the U.S.’s “more precise capabilities is a challenge,” the commander of the chief U.S. aid coordinating group told an audience in December.
>Clark, citing a presentation by Ukrainian soldiers, said the Russians use GPS spoofers to throw off the munitions.
>GPS spoofers work by sending false location data to GPS navigation devices. Because GPS signals are weak, a stronger, false signal can be sent to override the correct inputs. Russia has used GPS spoofing in Ukraine since at least 2018. But advancements in technology mean spoofers can be created cheaply with just a software-defined radio and open-source software.
>The weapons the spoofers are working against, meanwhile, are anything but cheap. A GMLRS missile costs around $160,000, while an Excalibur round can cost as much as $100,000. The GLDSB costs around $40,000.
I didn't know that Excalibur's were so expensive, at that price might as well but more GMLRS rounds for the HIMARS which have longer range:
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024/04/another-us-precision-guided-weapon-falls-prey-russian-electronic-warfare-us-says/396141/
>we need MORE money for something better article #462827363626618193747736463728
>yet another thread where vatniks pretend INS and military GPS don't exist
it's so tiresome.
>ins
never really an option for such weapons idiot
>military gps
you think that its somehow a wunderwaffen whenit gets its whole range jammed ?
>jammed
the article talks about spoofing, which m-gps deals with
mate i hate to be that guy but they are not isolated
you cant just spoof without jamming first
>false signal can be sent to override the correct inputs.
>mate
Your mate on my gif zigur
>never really an option for such weapons
Ring Laser Gyroscopes are part of why US precision weapons with INS fallback are so expensive, you wouldn't want to put them in an arty shell but a missile with several hundred km range justifies them.
INS works
the accuracy drops exponentially with distance from the last GPS connection
so it's not ideal and over along distance you lose a lot of accuracy
you have the Y-code
which you can't spoof either without the W-code
you can jam it and that's it
I doubt the exponential claim. Any.noise in the integration would send the munition drawing circles in that case. Linear, I'll buy.
Tactical grade IMU with 3 RLGs is ~$10k and nearly every PGM with the exception of maybe tiny PGK has it. You're probably thinking of navigational or strategic grade IMUs you would put on a cruise missile or an ICBM, they are expensive not because of the RLGs but because they need to be manufactured, selected and tested to a much higher accuracy standard
What are you talking about? Most cruise missiles use GPS/INS guidance. As soon as the missile picks up anomalous GPS signals it just has to switch to INS and even in the case of a false positive the INS system can still land in the general region of the target.
>As soon as the missile picks up anomalous GPS signals
That doesn't mean it picks up the fake GPS signal instantly, only when it DOES notice, it switches to INS. if it was spoofed for 10-20 seconds before it noticed and switched to INS, you could be too far off for the INS to help.
>military GPS don't exist
It literally hasn't been a thing for decades.
>military GPS don't exist
It largely doesn't in all but the newest munitions. Most of the US munition modernization efforts are adding hardened M-code capable GPS units. JASSM for example, barely any of our current stocks have M-code GPS as it's an ongoing upgrade.
Correction, the USAF currently has 0 M-code capable JASSMs in inventory.
The first 10 are set to be delivered in October.
P(Y) code homie
P(y) code is transmitted at 10x standard signal strength, but that doesn't make it unjammable, just more jam resistant than regular GPS.
jamming and spoofing are two different things
jamming makes it so you can't read the signal, spoofing makes it so you get wrong information
Yes and both are problems in Ukraine. Spoofing works on the cheap consumer shit, jamming works on most military shit, most military shit just also has INS and similar tech to mitigate the jamming effects.
True M-code capable equipped munitions can't come soon enough, sadly they'll probably never be provided to Ukraine.
jamming is much more difficult
and if it regains GPS connection for even a moment the deviation with the INS is reset back to 0
Jamming is essentially just spoofing with random data. Spoofing is more effective because it doesn't have to completely mask the true data, just be louder while still being plausible. The point of encryption is to make it substantially more difficult to generate plausibly fake data.
But it is unspoofable. Jamming GPS munitions from the ground is hard because the jammer is in range only in the terminal phase, so the INS has a good fix for a long time.
Good jammers are airborne and can jam the munition for a longer time
>Jamming GPS munitions from the ground is hard
1-10kW jammer will jam a basic P(Y) receiver as soon as it breaks the radio horizon at 1-10km altitude depending how far away you put it. So essentially it will be jammed for the entire duration of flight. What you are suggesting requires CRPA antennas to reduce the effective range to 10km or so but they aren't currently deployed, we'll see in a few months
>INS has a good fix for a long time
tactical grade IMU specs are roughly 5 meters of drift in the first minute, 25 meters in the second minute. artillery or GMLRS flies for around 1.5-3 minutes depending on rounds and ranges
It doesn't necessarily need CRPA antennas, non-rotating projectiles can just use directional antennas pointed upwards, rotating projectiles afaik have an arrangement with the INS to effectively have a directional antenna.
This is speculation, but gun-fired INS is probably in a horrible state or possibly nonfunctional right out of the barrel, so atleast a single GNSS fix is needed.
>directional antennas pointed upwards
They're not that directional compared to CRPA, no hard numbers but I have a suspicion it might not be enough
>gun-fired INS is probably in a horrible state
I wonder what has to be programmed into the round before loading and firing it, maybe there are optional fields for gun coordinates, azimuth, elevation, expected muzzle velocity to function as the initial vector for the INS?
It's more the initial high G impulse at launch that messes up the INS calculations I'd expect.
INS isn't very accurate
but ye spoofing shouldn't work on military GPS, just jamming
Then it's too bad almost nothing in US stocks uses military GPS.
>Implying ukrainians don't use american GPS
keep living in your dreamworld
>American GPS
American GPS is the only GPS by dint of the fact that GPS is the name of a single series of 38 satellites put up by the US other nations have competitors but GPS by definition is American.
F a g g o t
when have they failed due to "gps spoofing"? where are the proofs?
https://twitter.com/RealJakeBroe/status/1783973226689011730?t=mLHJyFatWobYPRBPsmE_Xw&s=19
Tiny warheads designed to minimize collateral damage, make them a bit bigger issue solved
Do you think I give a frick about the opinions of someone who didn't know what GPS jamming and INS accuracy were before 2023? You are an animal.
Russian jam is delicious
Say what you will about Russian subhumans, but their search engine's image search is superior to Google's image search. It was even better like a year or so ago.
No it's shit, it only ever gives me results with some weird-ass letters I can't read
Well Google search in general become shit
and Yandex is Pussia gov propaganda machine, so not sure what "images" u r searching in that dumpster
>t moron
t zigur from gif
ok morono
I use yandex to reverse image search stills from porn videos that get posted to /gif/ or reddit and it usually works better than israelitegle
Google is unironically a bigger propaganda machine than anything the Ruskies put out. Prior to 2013 you could find anything you wanted, even shit from the 90s. Its all still there and can be found, but they deliberately broke their own system in order to censor information(holohoax/racism/conspiracy/statistics/ect) and then moved on to censoring shit to protect economic interests including porno. There are still lots of ways around it but it used to be so simple a moron could find anything they wanted. They've been pissed that they lost total control over political narratives for decades now.
It's truly infuriating trying to use google for anything now. Try searching for anything by it's exact name like a service manual and you'll get 5 ads, 5 results from insectoid dropship websites, and one result that's the exact opposite of what you wanted. It's bad enough that it's expecting you to write a question like a mobilegay (how do I do X?) instead of a search term.
if you're not using Bing in 2024 you're literally cucking yourself to see endless AI bullshit in every search. Say what you will about Microsoft, they solved the SEO bullshit problem as soon as it arrived. People just haven't switched to bring yet. Also, side not, bing pays you for the data it steals from you, it's not much, but I've gotten $15 worth of Amazon giftcards since maybe January
Oh, how the turns have tabled.
Can you spend it on anything or are you forced to use It on specific products that Microsoft has enabled?
You have my attention, tell me more.
>Google is unironically a bigger propaganda machine than anything the Ruskies put out.
>lost total control over political narratives for decades now.
Dude u r contradicting urself
Not really mutually exclusive, bigger does not mean more effective
>censoring
I wish, the reality is the first 2 pages for just about anything you could search are paid for adds followed by another 5 pages of SEO marketing.
Google isn't broken because "they are hiding the truth", the truth is google made $237.8 billion last year selling advertising including priority search results.
Either Ukies don't have M-code available or journos don't have a fricking clue what they are talking about, take your pick. Spoofing the civilian C/A code is trivial for a state attacker and can be done with a 15 year old laptop + SDR.
This very outlet pulled this same stunt last year. I know that because I made the thread about it, which I paired with a better article on the work being done (alt-PNT) to ensure PGMs stay PGMmy. https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/60408141
Don't be a skove enabler. Use archive links, if you must link at all.
They must have access to P(Y) otherwise it would be much too easy to jam. Safe to assume journos don't know the difference between spoofing and jamming. M-code is not operational outside the US and only for testing purposes. It is also not a foolproof solution as the correlation properties are likely similar to P(Y), the real advantage is M spot beam and/or receivers with controlled reception pattern antennas. Since ~2020 US is in the process of refitting weapons with better receivers like SABR-Y but Ukraine likely got older stocks with simpler one or two antenna receivers that are much more vulnerable
Oh yeah, mixed up the codes. Dissemination of GPS crypto probably won't be discussed publicly.
Jamming GPS munitions is an interesting topic since a Ukie soldier might think that GPS is jammed/spoofed when their Garmin stops working, but the reality is different for a munition in the sky with a directional antenna
Yeah our GPS sucks in certain ways.
>advancements in technology mean spoofers can be created cheaply with just a software-defined radio and open-source software
in all the time the ukies had our systems over there I haven't seen a single actual spoof attempt. it's "ascend above treeline, gps is jammed from someone shouting energy at the sky", every single fricking time.
ten bucks say it's journoscum interpreting shells deviating slightly due to INS fallback as "OMG WE'RE SPOOFED COMPROMISED THEY OPEN SORES HACKED INTO THE MAINFRAME OF THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX"
If I recall correctly, isn't the issue due to Russians indiscriminately jamming all GPS wavelengths, including their own?
Yes, russians are using the 10kw (R-330Zh) to jam/blind all the GPS band like monkeys howling. Against a military receiver (regardless the code -but it can improve the J/S ratio-) they have limited range tho.
I'm trans btw
Welcome aboard our friendly battleship, Caius!
If he breethin,
He seethin
"please let us build GPS 2"
Is there any information on Galileo being used/planned to be used for targeting systems and on the jamming of it?
I think the newer civilian GPS signal uses the same frequency as Galileo. So if you're jamming it'll probably jam both.
Found an austrian article on the topic from 2019 so I guess there has already been some research before the war. But no clue what the state of the countermeasurements is. Anyways, here's the link if you're interested, just use a translator:
https://www.truppendienst.com/themen/beitraege/artikel/gnss-und-navigation-warfare
All these weapons have inertial sensors and will function without GPS and still be accurate.
They will be multiple times less accurate without satellite navigation. So they won't be accurate at all
I suspect GPS is spoofed for recon drones so when they input coordinates in Excaliburp or in anouther wunderwaffe these coordinates are already wrong.
Still have TV guided, thermals, radar, and laser guided munitions. Use these to take out the GPS jammers and then your JDAMs are good to go.
How do Russian spoofing defeat SAASM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_availability_anti-spoofing_module
They don't. Russian spoofing is for DJI-like drones. They use "brute force" with far less range against hardened receivers.
>at that price might as well give more GMLRS
Yeah I think they have M1156 Precision Guidance Kits that are supposed to be cheaper than Exalibur
it'd be cheaper per unit if we procured more 982s.