There is a new WSJ article on the subject with comments by Greg Hayes, the CEO of Raytheon.
wsj.com/articles/u-s-patriot-missile-is-an-unsung-hero-of-ukraine-war-db6053a0
It's paywalled, but here's a qrd:
>Ukraine has 2 batteries, one from the US, one from the Netherlands.
>Raytheon is contracted to manufacture 5 more batteries for Ukraine by the end of 2024.
>They plan to up their production to 12 batteries per year.
>Ukraine uses both PAC-2 and PAC-3.
>Their success rate is almost 90%.
>Kinzhals fly twice as fast as Patriot's max interception speed, the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
Reminder that Ukrainian ingenuity was the only thing that allowed the USSR to compete with NATO, if Russia cannot control them they must destroy them lest they get destroyed in turn.
>Ukraine has 2 batteries, one from the US, one from the Netherlands.
Ukraine has a German Patriot as well. That article is already rubbish
I seriously doubt that either:
1. Raytheon gave Ukraine access to source code so Ukraine could improve the capabilities of the Patriot
2. Ukraine wrote their own code for this system from scratch in a year that worked better than the stuff Raytheon has been writing for more than a decade
In fairness computer programming is something Ukraine's been known for for a while. Relatively cheap but high quality. They're where you want to outsource if you're smart (if you're dumb you outsource to India).
No way in hell raytheon gave the ukies the source code.
>MUH C code
I don't think they got to do something like that
They probably get something basic.
And all they got to do is
Calculate time, distance, altitude, directions from where it comes from and where it goes, how fast the Hypersonic goes and finger crossing that this work.
It's not like how some Arab
You see rocket, you press button type of situations
I think there’s probably a “patriot software scripting language” akin to Excel VBA.
We're talking about eastern Europeans here, they probably decompiled that shit and made their own in the first couple weeks of getting them.
Like
said, this isn’t about how capable the Ukrainians are, it’s about if Raytheon actually gave the source code to actually modify the software to begin with.
IF software was modified here’s the most realistic scenario: American Raytheon contractors that were stationed with the patriot systems in Ukraine (iirc there are private contractors there) made some slight modifications to the systems filtering measures to allow for notifications on earlier detection.
>they made the Stalker videogames so they could do this
doesn't work like that
ukrainians have been jailbraking western software for years on things like john deere tractors so they can use aftermarket parts while a patriot system is a bit of a leap they have done stuff like this before
That's not how software works. They have no access to rewrite anything and you can't just hack a password it's not a password.
Ya they didnt rewrite shit.
>(if you're dumb you outsource to India)
One of the good things about the improvements in AI is that there will no longer be any reason to outsource to India. AI fits exactly the same niche as all Indian white-collar workers.
Option 3: They took the binary code and reverse-engineered and patched parts of it.
Option 4: There exists 3rd-party software used by non-american patriot deployments
Option 3 is moronic considering they only had their hands on the patriot system for 2 months prior to full deployment
Option 4 is unlikely, as that would mean our adversaries would have access as well
>Open-source ABM software.
What a world.
>sudo apt-get PatriotPatch
>Option 3: They took the binary code and reverse-engineered and patched parts of it.
I want you to goto PrepHole and post this. I want to feel that pain you will cause.
Option 5: They ignored the official operational parameters and engaged a target they weren't supposed to engage ... but it worked anyway
>ask Raytheon what the maximum theoretical speed of interceptable targets is
>run Cheat Engine on the Patriot, look for instances of that value and change them to triple
>it works!
>That kid who used speed hax irl.
(Cheats Enabled- Achievements Disabled)
This. Why would you hand over all this equipment and then just leave them to make all the alterations?
Spanish navy did it with their AEGIS ships and they work better than they are supposed to.
Hard kill ratio on supersonic drones is off the charts, the raytheon test range hates this frigates because they never get to reuse the target drones because muh "telemtry kill".
So is doable.
Your potential annihilation as an entire people is a pretty powerful motivator to put a ton of smart people to work on shooting down hypersonics.
but, as has been pointed out, they're not real hypersonics.
fire something for it to intercept
dump ram after it has calculated a firing solution
fire again, dump again
compare dumps and figure out which addresses correspond to parameters of the firing solution
figure out the limits imposed on launch parameters, or during the calculation thereof
prepare a rom increasing the limits you are interested in
2 months is plenty, but i doubt they actually did anything.
> compare dumps and figure out which addresses correspond to parameters of the firing solution
That’s not modding the system or software though. The software was designed to allow parameter input changes. I used the analogy earlier of changing graphics settings within a game. You’re “tweaking it” sure, but you’re not changing the system to do something it “wasn’t designed to do”
i'd say it's akin to modding hardcoded timing values in a car's ecu
The difference is these specific variables are designed to be easily changed and part of the training is how to change them and when. It’s not like you require third party or OEM systems that are “unlocking” access
Or they just uncommented lines 337-347 in some C file which implemented predictive tracking against a fast target that didn't exist yet.
Or Ukraine used a dissambler / hex editor because they’re not moronic Black folk. And they were able to tweak some of the original source code
>ukrainians using disassemblers and hex editors to RE and patch hypersonic intercept capabilities into patriot
sounds moronic to me. i kinda doubt that the ukrainians would dump whatever embedded software is running on the patriot systems and try to reflash modded software. wouldn't it suck if they fricked up and bricked their patriot battery? it's far more likely they have raytheon or military spooks looking over their shoulder.
3. Ukies asked the Raytheon adviser about intercepting Kinzhals and they gave them access to the developer console to adjust target filtering parameters.
Its more likely that ukies got the missile profile from the ground radar tracking them during previous strikes and just added that to a database of targets of sorts, and then the system determines if the missile is interceptable in the given parameters with the config in mind.
And considering the fact that you can intercept pretty much everything if its flying towards you at high speed its not surprising that they could intercept it. Its a ballistic missile that can barely maneuver when its in the terminal phase
Now if the thing decided to do 40 degree turns @ 70k feet while not loosing its energy (needs a scramjet) while going to target the thing would be near god damn untouchable by any GBAD that is fielded today (americans are developing a missile like that btw)
There's this completely fricked up thing called intellectual property law which the Ukrainians politely ignore when the time comes.
You talk about things being done in a year, they could have been sitting on that code for much longer, just waiting for the hardware.
holy shit tourists are on suicide watch due to this comment. Good job
2) Its very possible to do so. The software engineering isn't military's strong point. That is the strong point of commercial markets. In fact, if you look at Ukraine's core military structure, Starlink is the building block of their defense/offense. Starlink is entirely commercially funded/developed without a single US dollar going into that, neither from civilian side of US gov nor from military. The gov funded sat operators couldnt replicate that success. The old GEO sats are bulky/cumbersome/unavailable for use in war due to jamming/etc.
>Kinzhals fly twice as fast as Patriot's max interception speed, the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
I’m not sure which statement there is more false, but I’ll go with Raytheon allowing Ukrainian farmers modify their proprietary and probably classified software.
The missiles don't try to overtake the Kinzhals... they try to "T-bone" them.
Or rather: you don't have them fly AFTER the Kinzhal's, you fly TOWARDS them. Which is rather easy since the Kinzhals fly in a fairly straight line, so you just use launchers fairly ahead at them and shoot an intercept missile which will blow up when the missile's and the Kinzhal's flight path overlap.
Almost all blastic missiles are hypersonic. Patriots shoot down ballistic missiles. You shoot patriots at ballistic missiles coming at the Patriots.
Wow....
some of the world’s top hackers are ukrainian, dipshit
>The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
>In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
>The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
Ukrainians made the Witcher 3 so they can probably do this. They do have good programmers and the Witcher 3 is still like the best game ever.
What, did Poland outsource it?
Arr rook same
They also made stalker, /k/ino game but a buggy mess
https://www.ign.com/articles/stalker-2-will-not-be-at-the-xbox-showcase-developer-confirms
Vidya bros Is stalker 2 gonna end up as bad as cyberpunk
It has to actually release first. The fact it won't be at xbox showcase means it's not dropping for Xbox anytime this year. If it's not dropping on Xbox, I doubt it's dropping on Playstation. If it's not dropping on Xbox, I'm led to believe it may not be dropping for PC this year, either.
GSC said they'd make more announcements later in the year, but I'm skeptical they'll have it out anytime before winter of next year, at the earliest.
I loved CP2077, shit ran perfectly on my PC better than any Bethesda game has at launch.
moronic. Hypersonic is a lower angle than ballistic and not any faster.
Kill all journalists for their lies
>weapon designed by homosexual globohomosexual is brought into the hands of straight, white christians
>they immediately improve it
shocking I know
>globohomo
Anon, the weapon is still designed by white Christians. Majority of those that work in the defense industry are white. But here's your (you) for effort since i know this is bait.
Yep, it was they same grandpa who also shot down the SU-57 with his Mosin Nagant who then improved the software - he didn't even need the code, he reverse engineered from binary and coded while fighting off swarms of drones with his slingshot. SLAVA UKRAINI!!!
>Ukraine improved them on their own to do that
You guys are acting like Ukraine wasn't the backbone of Russia's entire space industry.
You're too stupid to understand that the U.S military has been ITCHING to try their gadgets out on the Russians for decades.
Everyone involved with the development and implementation of the patriot system has been wondering if they'd be able to use it on Russia's latest missiles, everyone involved has been waiting for an opportunity to try it out.
It should be an obvious assumption to anyone with a brain that Western "advisers" are overseeing the Patriot deployment in Ukraine - if any developments and improvements have been made during that deployment, it will be the western advisers who are doing it.
There’s no secret that western advisors ship with complex systems. Hell, half of US navy ships are staffed by advisors to help the US maintain their systems.
But if you’re conflating some Raytheon techno nerd advisor as being some “soooper secret American special forces” then you’re moronic.
The US even hires accounting nerds from the big 4 finance companies and had them stationed in war zone bases to help with logistics and shit
>soooper secret American special forces
Who are you quoting moron?
Anyway it seems like you agree it's obviously not "Ukrainians" improving it.
The way you quoted “advisers” seemed to imply you meant they weren’t actually advisers. But if you meant actual Raytheon advisors, no quotations on their title, then yes that is likely who is involved
The real sooper secret American forces types are all defense industry nerds these days. You really don't need your smart people who know how to do actual valuable things to do gruntwork too. It's why Benghazi spook station was a few literal EVE Online players with a squad of steroid and dip gorillas to babysit them.
Who even makes these kinds of articles? Who would pay for it?
You should look up who owns & operates WSJ. Then you will understand.
>the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
i think he meant "fine-tuned parameters in", not directly modified the software
Thats a distinction without a difference
>t. Programmer
If there are open variables that an end user can change, then they didn’t modify the software, they used the software as designed. There’s no modding being done, it’s all part of the design of the program. That’s a huge difference.
It’s the equivalent of changing your in game graphics settings to better suit your system.
That’s all speculative based on how and what they did to change the system. But the idea that any true modding was done to the software is highly unlikely
Ah so there’s probably some like “Raytheon Patriot Battery Macro Language” for user defined software additions? And the sand Black folk in Saudi Arabia were too moronic to ever do that?
Lmao it’s 90 percent likely coded in C based on its age, but iirc the Saudis failure in use was based on them not being turned on. Code doesn’t matter if it’s not on lool
You a moronic programmer then. If I change a number in a database that makes me a leet hacker now cool.....
i think is probably it, or they modified some values in a specific component of the software like changing MaxTrackingDistance from 1km to 2km or whatever
it's kind of the same deal as that young kid who "invented a computer."
What? Russia doesn't have hypersonics to begin with.
Ukraine MIC is decades ahead of the US
Just needs 2 more counteroffensives, 2 more billions and 2 more weeks
Atleast ahead of russia
>first send a dog
>then improve by sending a russian
>if everything works out send a human
good example of incremental improvment
>mods will fix it
not hypersonic
Kinzhal is not a hypersonic missile
it can reach hypersonic speed on some parts of its path if accelerated/dropped from by a plane
it can not steer properly in those flight regimes, flying instead like a regular ballistic missle.
->
patriot shoots down ballistic missile, as designed, because thats what the kinzhal is, a ballistic missile
Gonna go ahead call this article full of shit. PAC-2 and PAC-3 have always been capable of engaging so called "hypersonic weapons" (Kinzhal) reliably since after Desert Storm.
>the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
doubt
Lmao. This is such a schizo take.
It’s literally the new ghost of Kiev. I say with with pure and utter hatred of slavaBlack folk and their aids ridden russiya pride
These are the same guys who got Western tech to fire from Soviet planes.
It wasn’t them who got it though, it was NATO engineers.
The funny thing is, having a Raytheon executive go on the record makes it more plausible than any number of analysts or journalists commenting on it.
As an executive of a publicly traded company, he can get in real trouble for false statements that inflate the stock price. Having him state publicly that the Patriot can be modded to take out hypersonic missiles is (at least to my eye) pretty solid proof that it actually CAN do so, whether it was 100% Ukrainian hacking or not.
It can be modded, that’s part of their training and built into the system, but he worded it in such a way to make it sound ambiguous and make morons think they were somehow able to mod the system making the system seem like a magical untapped power source. Don’t get me wrong the patriot system is a beast, but this is marketing at the end of the day
>It's paywalled, but
I fricking hate tourists.
https://archive.is/LyM4V
>Patriot is not designed to intercept hypersonics
"Forty years after it was brought into service, the Patriot air-defense system is finally doing what it was designed for"
"what it was designed for"
Fricking moron
>Kinzhals fly twice as fast as Patriot's max interception speed, the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
"Raytheon Technologies, the Patriot’s main contractor,... Chief Executive Greg Hayes"
"He said Ukraine has tweaked the Patriot’s software to enable it to track and destroy hypersonic missiles flying twice as fast as it was designed for."
Please go die in a fire.
> enable it to track and destroy hypersonic missiles flying twice as fast as it was designed for
>as it was designed for
That line itself says it wasn’t designed for it. The article is just poorly written and is clearly not to be taken literally. This equally goes for the “tweaking software” statement
You're misreading it. Are you OP or a fresh dumbass?
Not op, im simply saying, when someone says “it can track and destroy missiles flying twice as fast as it was designed for” it implies it wasn’t designed for it. I’m saying the article contradicts itself with that sentence and the preceding sentence of “ Forty years after it was brought into service, the Patriot air-defense system is finally doing what it was designed for”
I’m simply pointing out how moronic the article is
>You're misreading it.
You have to accept this as a possibility before you can improve.
You have to accept the possibility that they miswrote it. Most people interpret that sentence as to mean it was not designed to do X prior to changes
Okay, enjoy your life, I have no qualms about you continuing on your path. I am equally unperturbed by pointing out that you are a dumbass that can't comprehend reality.
Godspeed.
>he sneaks away after being called out on his moronic take
Sad because I overall agreed with you, I was simply pointing out how poorly the article itself was written. Didn’t realize this would causes so much emotional trauma
Here we go with the projecting. Why? What could you possible can from this?
Either talk about the thread topic or don't. I have no interest in coddling your sensibilities.
>everyone makes fun of the article
> went on a rant about nobody reading the article
>posts prove the very thing you’re attempting to disprove
Sorry dude, not sure why you got so defensive over this horrendous journalistic practice lol.
Either way, the article is nonsense, if we want to discuss the actual subject matter, what likely happened is they adjusted open parameters that were within the designs of the system, as specified here
>Okay, enjoy your life, I have no qualms about you continuing on your path. I am equally unperturbed by pointing out that you are a dumbass that can't comprehend reality.
Godspeed.
Says he wants civil discourse, Ducks the question…many such cases
>What could you possible gain* from this?
This makes zero sense.
Is right, the article is trash lmao. Take out any substance, the two sentences cancel each other out, either it was designed to shoot down hypersonic missiles or it wasn’t. Half the speed of a Kinzhal is not hypersonic, so if it was designed to track and destroy missiles that were half the speed of a kinzhal (which isn’t true hypersonic to begin with) then they are arguing it was never designed to shoot down hypersonic missiles.
What a moronic take, relax syndrome boy
thanks for actually linking the article
op a shit
>t. Man who needs his hand held and can’t copy/ paste OPs article link into an archiving site
Why are you gay
Current Patriots are purpose built to intercept ballistic missiles like Kinzhal/Iskander. They fundamentally aren't all that much different from the SCUDs they were originally tasked with intercepting.
I think what really happened is that Ukraine had plenty of data on Kinzhal/Iskander flight profiles and plugged those in to the Patriot system to make them more efficient at intercepting those systems.
Most likely this is what happened. Nothing happened outside of what it was designed to do. The article is trash, modern journalists are moronic
>Kinzhals fly twice as fast as Patriot's max interception speed.
or a far simpler explanation would be that Russia again overstated the kinzhal's actual capabilities like they always do with their weapon systems.
moron alert
He’s just saying that because Raytheon’s Arab customers are asking why their patriot systems can’t track shit that Ukrain is showing it’s capable of doing
>Oh they must have hacked our software and modified it themselves… it’s a shame you Arabs aren’t in to coding
Let's face it. If Ukraine did it, we don't CARE. They're blowing up fricking Russians.
Not only will we not care, we'll give them medals, lol.
ITT people debating whether it's technically possible to independently mod patriot software while forgetting that Ukranians are relying on it for protection in real time.
When Russian missiles appear on the radar they can't have the defense system offline because they were trying to hack in with their visual basic GUI and install Gentoo.
The news is literally coming from Raytheon because the Ukrainians obviously worked with the company to modify the software in an approved way, and it was probably a matter of changing some parameters.
The main thing Ukraine contributed to Raytheon was probably the data of actually looking at the flight characteristics of incoming Russian missiles, and then the data of actually testing these changes.
This. Help from Raytheon coupled with the fact that Eastern European software engineering has its roots in pirating, cracking, and modifying western software that never officially made it to the USSR/post-Soviet states. It's no secret that Ukraine and Russia have a large hacker/piracy subculture, they've had the perfect environment to foster the building of that kind of knowledge base.
Actual cyber guy hear. Most software for hacking is developed in the US. Most hackers are from Eastern Europe, but they mainly use unmodified code they purchased from developers in America or western europe
>Actual cyber guy hear. Most software for hacking is developed in the US. Most hackers are from Eastern Europe
Textbook example of how to make a claim and out yourself as full of shit immediately
Yeah no. Most non-state hacker groups are based out of Eastern Europe but they all tend to script kiddy off preexisting modules. Its more on will than technical know how. I’d argue Serbian and Romanian technical abilities surpass Russia.
Side note: on a scale of state sponsored hacking groups, Russia tends to rate even lower
Don’t put yourself as a contrarian gay please
>Most non-state hacker groups are based out of Eastern Europe
=/=
>Most hackers are from Eastern Europe
North America, Western Europe, and even parts of East Asia are full of hackers, they are just less likely to be apart of criminal organizations ie. the "hacker groups" referenced Before you argue, think hard about whether this statement is true
> Most hackers are from Eastern Europe
Trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you flip out and start slinging shit don't even expect a reply.
Most non state hackers are from Eastern Europe. Most state based hackers are not. I differentiated
Also don’t forget that there are a multitude of hacks that come from within the US but are done by these non state entities, via pay for hire computer farms.
What he said isn’t necessarily contradictory to what I said and both are technically true
This you?
If so, care to explain the "Yeah no" you led with and set the tone for your entire reply? Maybe retract?
If not, why are you butting into this and confusing the matter?
My replies are
And
Is also my reply
>failure to address respectful direct question that clearly move forward the discussion out of pointless contention for contention's sake
Yeah, we're done. Stay mad.
What, wtf? Who’s mad lmao? I’m sorry I didn’t realize I was butting into your conversation with the other anon, I figured it’d help to give insight from another cyber perspective. Relax man
You literally cannot or will not read a simple sentence that asks of you a simple thing. Why the frick would I ever waste my time engaging with that? Go ahead, I could use a good laugh.
>If so, care to explain the "Yeah no" you led with and set the tone for your entire reply? Maybe retract?
I answered it, I didn’t realize it was butting into your conversation. If You got upset over me saying “yeah no” that wasn’t my intention, I was merely attempting to point out that he was not incorrect
1/10 beyond weak, didn't even half-smile
To add to my point, state based hacker groups tend to be smaller, and it gets further confounded when “hacktivists” use RaaS type services that are run by Eastern Europeans to perform their hacks.
It’s definitely in the realm of possibility that from a numbers perspective there are more Eastern European “hackers” like the other anon said, but he’s also right that they actually lack the skills of creating the actual systems used for hacking
This is correct. A lot of the baseline tools used by modern “hacker” groups/random ware groups are developed by the US.
I go into detail here
>Ukies hack patriots to play Missile Command IRL
What an awesome thought, even if it sounds like bullshit
Captcha: wpn4d(i)y
interface leaked
holy shit, it's real
>Total Zigger Death Mode willl violate warranty. Proceed?
LOL
Will it cure the gay
>Kinzhals fly twice as fast as Patriot's max interception speed, the Ukrainians improved Patriot's software on their own to match that.
This sounds like Glowie speak for claiming that Raytheon engineers are totally not on the ground in Ukraine (or at least not remotely wired in) and totally not providing live services to the Ukies that go rather egregiously beyond the usual tech support arrangements.
I mean thats marketing 101. Like companies giving free shit to celebrities and youtubers. Thats to build up hype.
Benefits both too
Also explains why the obvious glaring holes in the article
It’s not unexpected that Raytheon contractors would be out there. That’s how these things work, nothing new or secretive, a raytheon contractor was just killed in Syria a month or so ago from an Iranian drone iirc
Most Raytheon techs I saw on Korea were old and fat retired warrant officers.
Yeah, contractors are either corporate trained or on an officer to contractor pipeline. It’s how the MIC industry works and why so many people assume the MIC has inherent corruption
>It’s not unexpected that Raytheon contractors would be out there. That’s how these things work, nothing new or secretive, a raytheon contractor was just killed in Syria a month or so ago from an Iranian drone iirc
Sure. But in Syria Raytheon engineers aren't directly helping to optimize western air-defense systems that while currently mainly shooting down large numbers of Russian cruise missiles, could be shooting down large numbers of Russian manned aircraft if the VKS grew some stones/competence.
Giving the Ukies the credit for discovering the full potential of patriot via gopnik plunk is both good business sense in hyping up their kit, while keeping plausible deniability about how direct the assistance is.
Peepeepoopoo your nothing but a plug for Putins massive anus
58543501
holy shit op mad af
but what doth hypersonic?
>Ukraine improved them on their own to do that
So could ukraine be getting new himars for
>Pic related
conversion?
imagine the range
also, explain to me why this wouldnt work?
and why have ukraine not been using this before?
its like ATACMS at that point
What is the status on those BUK that could launch Sparrow missiles? Seems like they have been working on that for a year.
interestingly they did the same with the PHZ2000 and decreased the time it needed to set up for firing.
I support Ukraine but this is stupid.
Much more likely it was a secret capability of patriot all along and the US decided its a good enough time to unclassify it.
A ballistic missile coming down is actually "hypersonic" too, so in a way its not unreasonable that it could do it all along. Its just that ballistic missiles are "coming down" whilst hypersonics move "horizontally".
Also, since this was likely propaganda, I dont think that anyone not supporting Ukraine already would be convinced by "wow, they did that with the patriotic, I guess I will support them now". Tell your boss that if I were you I'd focus on, say the amount of white/christian Europeans Russia has killed. (orders of magnitude more than even all islamic "trucks of peace" in europe and 9/11). Or how what Russia is doing to people's houses is no different than looters during the BLM protests
>There is a new WSJ article
I'm not reading