okay now that I made the obvious joke in the early days of wireless it was very easy to just jam the airwaves by saturation. It was either at the start of or just before WWI I think
> they had wireless in WW1
you learn something new every day bruh fr fr...
I went to double check, and apparently it was the Russians getting owned at Tsushima >The earliest documented consideration of EW was during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904–1905. The Japanese auxiliary cruiser Shinano Maru had located the Russian Baltic Fleet in Tsushima Strait, and was communicating the fleet's location by "wireless" to the Imperial Japanese Fleet HQ. The captain of the Russian warship Ural requested permission to disrupt the Japanese communications link by attempting to transmit a stronger radio signal over the Shinano Maru's signal, hoping to distort the Japanese signal at the receiving end. Russian Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky refused the advice and denied the Ural permission to electronically jam the enemy, which in those circumstances might have proved invaluable. The intelligence the Japanese gained ultimately led to the decisive Battle of Tsushima. The battle was humiliating for Russia. The Russian navy lost all its battleships and most of its cruisers and destroyers. These staggering losses effectively ended the Russo-Japanese War in Japan's favor. 4,380 Russians were killed and 5,917 were captured, including two admirals, with a further 1,862 interned.[9]
>russians absolutely moronic with IFF to begin with >admiral denies the usage of EW for no reason, probably due to his alcohol-damaged brain
Every fricking thing I read about the russo-japanese war and tsushima just gets better and better
There is a great documentary series from the 70s about this called The Secret War that covers EW and similar stuff like Operation Biting where the allies stole a German radar. It starts with the battle of the beams:
various things I remember EW wise from WW2:
>Germany outfitted a Zeppelin with a bunch of EW equipment to see if Chain Home was operational. They thought it wasn't despite the fact it had an accurate track on them. >RAF had some barely flying old bombers with civilian Hallicrafters direction finders bought on credit from a radio supplier in London that found the german beams. >They could bend the knickebein beam or widen it using medical diathermy sets (like a 1920s microwave oven for medical stuff) on the ground >Either X or Y Gerat used a similar frequency to the BBC's pre-war signal tower in London so they would just drown them out with a much bigger transmitter. >lots of stuff based around detecting or jamming the other side's nightfighter radars. Chaff was part of this >the RAF had a jamming pod for Boulton Paul Defiants (515 Squadron) and bunch of similar tricks used by modified heavy bombers (100 Group) that would jam German air defense radars and communications between fighters and their ground controllers. >aside from just mass spoofing radars with Chaff they also would release it periodically to make a small bomber force look larger. when the RAF bombed Peenemunde they had some mosquitos fly to Berlin while dropping chaff to confuse the Germans. When they got there they marked the targets like normal then circled dropping the occasional 4000lb bomb until the main raid had completed.
There were two teams on board the Hinderburg during that ELINT flight who refused to work together in a civil manner, so they fricked up their chance to study Chain Home. Peak kraut moronation.
I met one of those guys when he was at the visitor's center signing into Security Hill and got to talk to him for a bit when he found out I was an ELINTer.
I've read books on WWI where they blast frequencies to jam comms, so it's very old. Obviously it's less effective when radio waves are less important to an army though.
I recall that the Germans stopped jamming shit early in the war out east because the Russians were just broadcasting unencrypted on a few frequencies and it was more valuable to just listen to their comms or feed them fake info. Obviously not much changed between 1914 and 2022 lol.
There is a lot more you can do with EW now in terms of radar waves, generating noise, etc.
You have way more sensors in weapons systems and they are essential for them to work right. Tanks have radar, missiles have radar, there are IR sensors everywhere, there are fairly advanced seismic detectors that people don't talk about as much, etc.
What everyone is trying to do now is integrate all of these into holistic picture of the battlefield because then you can use that data to really leverage autonomous systems, both your mobile UGV, UAV sensors/spotters and your increasingly autonomous batteries, etc.
But this also means you can do way more with noise to frick with detection or play your adversaries tech against them. This happens the most with radar now. Any radar and any datalink generates signals you can pick up on, but picking them out of the random noise is very difficult. It's the sort of thing machine learning and genetic algorithims are great for because there is a gigantic sample space of solutions to explore and finding good methods would take forever otherwise. But once people start using really advanced algorithms or "AI," there are also ways to frick with those things.
The widespread use of thermals is an interesting case because it's a harder emission to control, especially for infantry. I'd imagine that, when it becomes enough of a problem, the solution will be a combo of using drones to hunt down sensors in an area before attacking and/or just blanketing a number of wide areas with noise
One interesting thing about chaff is that Germany and Britain both invented at the same time in 1941 but neither side used until over a year later because they were worried about the mutual destruction from the other side using it.
it genuinely crippled german air defense when it was first used leading to Hamburg getting grilled. Even when the germans actually used their version duppel it was partially effective. during the baby blitz it blinded ground radars but the RAF had so many mosquito night fighters vs the small number of Ju-88s that it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
Far from knowledgeable on details of EW but I enjoyed RV Jones autobiography book "The Most Secret War" as an explanation of some of the EW and other science shit going on during WW2. Particularly the Battle of the Beams.
they probably did both, but specifically before D Day they dropped chaff slowly in a pattern that was made to look like a slowly advancing fleet towards Calais and other possible points of attack
i also remember that the german bombing raids into uk were radio guided. they had one long beam going along the path of the plane to prevent the planes from going off course, if they went of course they saw the radio signal drop and the maximum was dead in the middle.
they had another beam intersecting the first one going 90 degrees to it from france so that the plane could only detect the second beam when its nearly over the target
theyre basically marking a giant X over the target using 2 radio beams
>Origins of EW
yeah when you're mom gave birth to you
okay now that I made the obvious joke in the early days of wireless it was very easy to just jam the airwaves by saturation. It was either at the start of or just before WWI I think
> they had wireless in WW1
you learn something new every day bruh fr fr...
> they had wireless in WW1
Bruh....how else do you think the Titanic communicated with other ships while in the middle of the ocean?
>He believes anyone on the Titanic survived
>He doesn't realize every "survivor" was actually an alien hologram
NGMI
>Believing ships are real
ishygddt
Carrier pigeons.
I went to double check, and apparently it was the Russians getting owned at Tsushima
>The earliest documented consideration of EW was during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904–1905. The Japanese auxiliary cruiser Shinano Maru had located the Russian Baltic Fleet in Tsushima Strait, and was communicating the fleet's location by "wireless" to the Imperial Japanese Fleet HQ. The captain of the Russian warship Ural requested permission to disrupt the Japanese communications link by attempting to transmit a stronger radio signal over the Shinano Maru's signal, hoping to distort the Japanese signal at the receiving end. Russian Admiral Zinovy Rozhestvensky refused the advice and denied the Ural permission to electronically jam the enemy, which in those circumstances might have proved invaluable. The intelligence the Japanese gained ultimately led to the decisive Battle of Tsushima. The battle was humiliating for Russia. The Russian navy lost all its battleships and most of its cruisers and destroyers. These staggering losses effectively ended the Russo-Japanese War in Japan's favor. 4,380 Russians were killed and 5,917 were captured, including two admirals, with a further 1,862 interned.[9]
>russians absolutely moronic with IFF to begin with
>admiral denies the usage of EW for no reason, probably due to his alcohol-damaged brain
Every fricking thing I read about the russo-japanese war and tsushima just gets better and better
here's a bonus
Another example of this is the Earth's magnetic field. Not a lot of people have heard about it, but there are places where you can see it in action.
Battle of the beams.
Pretty much everyone did it in WW2, Allies, Germans, Japs.
There is a great documentary series from the 70s about this called The Secret War that covers EW and similar stuff like Operation Biting where the allies stole a German radar. It starts with the battle of the beams:
various things I remember EW wise from WW2:
>Germany outfitted a Zeppelin with a bunch of EW equipment to see if Chain Home was operational. They thought it wasn't despite the fact it had an accurate track on them.
>RAF had some barely flying old bombers with civilian Hallicrafters direction finders bought on credit from a radio supplier in London that found the german beams.
>They could bend the knickebein beam or widen it using medical diathermy sets (like a 1920s microwave oven for medical stuff) on the ground
>Either X or Y Gerat used a similar frequency to the BBC's pre-war signal tower in London so they would just drown them out with a much bigger transmitter.
>lots of stuff based around detecting or jamming the other side's nightfighter radars. Chaff was part of this
>the RAF had a jamming pod for Boulton Paul Defiants (515 Squadron) and bunch of similar tricks used by modified heavy bombers (100 Group) that would jam German air defense radars and communications between fighters and their ground controllers.
>aside from just mass spoofing radars with Chaff they also would release it periodically to make a small bomber force look larger. when the RAF bombed Peenemunde they had some mosquitos fly to Berlin while dropping chaff to confuse the Germans. When they got there they marked the targets like normal then circled dropping the occasional 4000lb bomb until the main raid had completed.
thanks for the link fr fr
There were two teams on board the Hinderburg during that ELINT flight who refused to work together in a civil manner, so they fricked up their chance to study Chain Home. Peak kraut moronation.
I met one of those guys when he was at the visitor's center signing into Security Hill and got to talk to him for a bit when he found out I was an ELINTer.
Captcha:G0Y8m
I've read books on WWI where they blast frequencies to jam comms, so it's very old. Obviously it's less effective when radio waves are less important to an army though.
I recall that the Germans stopped jamming shit early in the war out east because the Russians were just broadcasting unencrypted on a few frequencies and it was more valuable to just listen to their comms or feed them fake info. Obviously not much changed between 1914 and 2022 lol.
There is a lot more you can do with EW now in terms of radar waves, generating noise, etc.
You have way more sensors in weapons systems and they are essential for them to work right. Tanks have radar, missiles have radar, there are IR sensors everywhere, there are fairly advanced seismic detectors that people don't talk about as much, etc.
What everyone is trying to do now is integrate all of these into holistic picture of the battlefield because then you can use that data to really leverage autonomous systems, both your mobile UGV, UAV sensors/spotters and your increasingly autonomous batteries, etc.
But this also means you can do way more with noise to frick with detection or play your adversaries tech against them. This happens the most with radar now. Any radar and any datalink generates signals you can pick up on, but picking them out of the random noise is very difficult. It's the sort of thing machine learning and genetic algorithims are great for because there is a gigantic sample space of solutions to explore and finding good methods would take forever otherwise. But once people start using really advanced algorithms or "AI," there are also ways to frick with those things.
The widespread use of thermals is an interesting case because it's a harder emission to control, especially for infantry. I'd imagine that, when it becomes enough of a problem, the solution will be a combo of using drones to hunt down sensors in an area before attacking and/or just blanketing a number of wide areas with noise
Technically speaking, the elimination of carrier pigeons could also be considered to be EW.
One interesting thing about chaff is that Germany and Britain both invented at the same time in 1941 but neither side used until over a year later because they were worried about the mutual destruction from the other side using it.
> mutual destruction
you mean mutual littering lol?
both
it genuinely crippled german air defense when it was first used leading to Hamburg getting grilled. Even when the germans actually used their version duppel it was partially effective. during the baby blitz it blinded ground radars but the RAF had so many mosquito night fighters vs the small number of Ju-88s that it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
Shame I didnt see this thread earlier today, otherwise I wouldve done an AMA.
>t. Army EWBlack person
>AMA on r/kayweapons
anyway what could you possibly say that isn't covered by opsec?
Coke or pepsi?
Part of the reason for VT fuzes being top secret was the fact that they could be destroyed mid-flight by jamming
I haven't heard about VT fuse jammer compared to homing or searching jammers.
difficulty of imitative doppler effect?
Far from knowledgeable on details of EW but I enjoyed RV Jones autobiography book "The Most Secret War" as an explanation of some of the EW and other science shit going on during WW2. Particularly the Battle of the Beams.
didnt they drop chaff before d day on the bombing raids into germany or was that later?
they probably did both, but specifically before D Day they dropped chaff slowly in a pattern that was made to look like a slowly advancing fleet towards Calais and other possible points of attack
i also remember that the german bombing raids into uk were radio guided. they had one long beam going along the path of the plane to prevent the planes from going off course, if they went of course they saw the radio signal drop and the maximum was dead in the middle.
they had another beam intersecting the first one going 90 degrees to it from france so that the plane could only detect the second beam when its nearly over the target
theyre basically marking a giant X over the target using 2 radio beams