noob electrician here. Trying to find the neutral wire, is it the red nut/black wires in the back? Thanks frens
noob electrician here. Trying to find the neutral wire, is it the red nut/black wires in the back? Thanks frens
noob electrician here. Trying to find the neutral wire, is it the red nut/black wires in the back? Thanks frens
get a multimeter ya dingus
Thx. I guess better safe than sorry. I was assuming whoever installed those light switches inverted the live & neutral wire colors
fine
assuming doesn't work out well when dealing with electricity
>I was assuming
Assume nothing. I already see white wires connected to a switch. Could be hot. Could be a lazy electrician didn't mark a white switched leg. Could be some moron is switching the neutral.
Exactly. Something about it is fricky, so the only solution is to check voltages. My vote goes to switched neutral because there two white wires on each switch (not a white and black) and at least one of them ties into a wirenutted bunch of white wires. But you never know until you check.
Most likely white. It’s always worth double checking with the meter just in case a moronic boomer was in there before you.
Fricking moron. Black is load in a correct single switch/outlet setup. Red is toggle load in a 3 way setup. White is only ever an intermediate carrier and should never be hooked to neutral.
Pic related is something I setup recently in my bathroom for a light and fan.
>changed one light switch and is now the smartest sparky on the internet
Oh you’re talking about the red wire in OP’s pic?
moron…
I have had to replace a few misconfigured 3-way switches in a couple houses I've lived in. It doesn't take a genius to do it new. But unfricking someone's bullshit is a different story.
That’s why you just stick a meter in there.
I remember this shit when I was like 12, we had a contractor doing a reno and repaint on a bunch of stuff in our house and for whatever reason he had the outlet apart where the big ol’ 50” projector TV plugged in. When we turned on the TV, it blew. Obviously drunk grandpa or boomer (possibly drunk) dad didn’t use common colors on the circuit and contractor dude never tested it. That was shitty too because it wasn’t like these days where a 50” TV is $278 at Walmart.
>bepis calling another a moron
dude go back to working on your wife's boyfriend's car and stay out of these convos
>white should never be hooked to neutral
Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand. I thought most neutrals should be colored white.
I was speaking to when white is used as an intermittent hot as seen in the pic rel. It would obviously just short out. So always test against ground.
In most cases, but not all, the white conductor is used for the neutral. There are plenty of circumstances in which the white conductor is hot.
>White is only ever an intermediate carrier and should never be hooked to neutral.
FALSE
Never assume that white is neutral, unless it's hooked up to a bunch of other white wires. Code says that neutral has to be white (cannot tag a colored wire white unless very specific circumstances) but a white wire can be repurposed in some circumstances, a very common one being switch loops. Whenever possible, a colored wire/should/ be used for anything that is or might become live.
Also never assume that the person who was there before you knew shit about any of that.
Are you a state-licensed Electrician? No? Then shut the frick up.
>There's Black, Red & White in this cable
>We'll connect black to red, then use the white & black but be sure to connect the white to black at the other end
I guess nobody considered just keeping black for hot all the way through, or even such space-aged thinking as using a 3-way cable with different colors so you can never confuse neutral with a white load, or are those three colors fixed in a constitutional amendment or something?
>I guess nobody considered just keeping black for hot all the way through, or even such space-aged thinking as using a 3-way cable with different colors so you can never confuse neutral with a white load, or are those three colors fixed in a constitutional amendment or something?
BECAUSE WHEN PROFESSIONALS WIRE A FRICKING HOUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ALLOW FOR CHILDREN PLAYING WITH THE WIRES. get it?
>get it?
No. Domestic electricity is easy if you don't have the IQ of a potato. That's why tradies deliberately over-complicate things like this so they can pretend you need them to connect a couple of wires together.
>I guess nobody considered just keeping black for hot all the way through, or even such space-aged thinking as using a 3-way cable with different colors so you can never confuse neutral with a white load, or are those three colors fixed in a constitutional amendment or something?
>Question for Americans, is white the standard neutral and black the standard live cable colour over there or is it just domestic shit?
Codes and standards for building wiring over here is just moronic on purpose. Since we spearheaded electricity we locked in a lot of really stupid decisions.
If you do any engineering then you'll find wire color logic is very different, often the opposite. For example if you break open your computer's PSU cable it's likely to have a green, black, and white wire which represents ground, neutral, and load respectively.
It's not like I can really shit on anything being stupid when the entire world is using an incorrect current that has electricity moving in the opposite direction from reality.
Fair enough. I'm a commercial sparky in Australia and we use red mainly for single phase active, black for neutral and green/yellow ground. For 3 phase we use Red, White, Blue as our Phase 1-3, black neutral and same ground. However for flex cables (extension leads etc) blue is often the neutral and brown the active. Makes sense your system is a bit muddled though for the reason you stated.
Another question, I've noticed that houses use the big Eaton breakers often in the panels and only supply earth's on selected outlets, with the RCD being on the outlet itself. Is there a specific reason you don't install RCD protection in the panel for the whole circuit instead of just the equipment being used? The red dot Eaton RCBOs are quote common here still if a bit outdated.
I agree that's a dumb illustration. It was probably made my someone trying to get reddit karma.
Yeah, keep black as hot. Red as switched hot coming out of one side of the switch, cool. The white could be repurposed with black electric tape to mark it. It's dumb they didn't illustrate that in the picture.
--
Oh yeah, so basically anytime a white is reused as hot or switched or anything that's not neutral, yes it's supposed to be marked. No builders don't always follow it, but that's how it's supposed to be
Read a thread about fricked up wiring and you're gonna get pictures of fricked up wiring.
the PO of my shitbox wired a bunch of 3-switches with 12-2 and just used the ground as another hot kek. It works most of the time
fricking yikes lmao, I'd fix that if I was you
You can clearly see the load is on the white you dumb moron. Hopefully op didn't burn himself yet
>Trying to find the neutral wire, is it the red nut/black wires in the back?
maybe you should stay out of electrical boxes.
I mean it's a fair question because whoever wired it used the white to run the switch, there's nothing we can do from here though, gotta get in there and investigate
Thanks, I won't mess with it anymore. It's not like i need a smart light switch anyway
The smart switches usually require a hot and neutral for their own circuitry to function. A standard wall-switch will have the power from the breaker panel running into the switchbox, then continuing to the ceiling/load/light, with only the hot (black) interrupted by the switch, in which case that's easy to tap into the neutral to add a smart switch, or, it will have a pair of wires running down from the light, so that power runs into the box where the light is, and then from that, a 14/2 piece of romex runs down to a switch, in which case the switch will have a black wire (which is supposed to be the hot) and uses the white wire as the return to the ceiling. That doesn't have a neutral, so you might be out of luck.
THAT BEING SAID, i have seen incredibly negredized wiring from brain-damaged 'white' people, where hot was run all the way through the box (with the switch in it) up to the load, and the return neutral was interrupted. Meaning the load was ALWAYS hot. Could be the situation you are experiencing, but you won't be reasonably certain without a meter.
To avoid angering /diy, state a complete question with your post, such as:
> This is a current pic. How do I swap out this simple switch with a smart switch?
Yes, you need a $40 meter, regardless. Decent AC/DC clamp meters with an EMF meter built-in, cost that much, maybe $50 post-inflation. Yes, it is a good investment.
Helpful stuff, thx. Been meaning to get a multimeter, so I'll probably get that before attempting anything else
>when some butthole wants to replace an whole mess of 3 ways and 4 ways with smart switches
yeah... i was only advising on a simple switch.
3-way is beyond the scope of my comment.
A lot of smart switches will work off of the ground, and it will say "no neutral required" on the box. This is meant to work with switch loops, the thing you mentioned about the drop (with neutral) being in the fixture box and a two-conductor cable running to the switch. Those were time when people did not think a switch would ever need a neutral and they would save on wasted wire.
Unfortunately for some people, it was common at some point in time to run /2 wire, no ground to lighting circuits like bathrooms, so these won't even work there as there is no ground, and I refuse to connect neutral to the surrounding metal box.
I’d be hesitant about using the ground wire trick. It’s not a high load, but a lot of older houses will have undersized ground wires. I’ve also seen situations in my own house where retrofitted wiring adds a ground wire that isn’t actually connected back to the panel
Those that say "neutral not required" are specifically designed to use a ground wire and have no neutral terminal. I got fricked because that place had no ground wire and I was not willing to jump the yoke (exposed metal) and the neutral together, in a bathroom of all places. Those devices will sink a tiny amount of current on the ground wire because they have advanced circuitry that will chop the live being fed to the load. I would never trust one that is not name brand like Lutron or Leviton.
PrepHole's wisest user
I'm hijacking your thread, OP, because it's the most active and attracting electricians.
Maybe they can tell me if picrel is some kind of practical joke, or did they just not have anything better, or..? One screw is 5x longer than the others. Took forever to get out.
sometimes if a box is too recessed or the drywall/plaster is too thick the stock screws are too short and you gotta make due with what you have lying around. they could have cut that with some wire strippers though. I've seen a lot of random shit used (hopefully not by electricians), from drywalls screws to nothing but superglue but that is pretty funny
Maybe all they had left was a tile screw? Just throw your impact on fast reverse.
>sometimes if a box is too recessed
many times the box is too recessed
fixed and >>>>>this
There are no neutrals in that switch box. Based on your pic, the neutral is located in the light fixture junction box. It is very common to use a two conductor (black, white) cable in which one is the hot and the other is the switch leg.
Thank you (and everyone else), seems like it's more than I can handle atm. I was too wienery
So after giving it some thoughts, I'll just replace the old light switch with a Decora/rocker one. Should be pretty simple just swapping the wires (also, correct me if i'm wrong, but I won't need to connect the ground wire since it's a metal box, and the current switches aren't even connected to ground either)
and then I'll slap a switchbot on it, which I already have a bunch of. It's probably gonna be cheaper/faster than buying a multimeter and trying to understand how to use it
The only bad thing is, it's just gonna be ugly, but whatever, I just want to automate the fan in the basement
>hot
>live
>neutral
>load
is this the porn thread?
>line
>load
> neutral
>earth
>P1, P2, P3
Question for Americans, is white the standard neutral and black the standard live cable colour over there or is it just domestic shit?
I may as well ask here instead of making a new thread.
We are demoing our basement and my dumb as frick father-in-law went to town with his reciprocating saw and started cutting out drywall and cut through some 3C #2 wire that was feeding a second 100amp panel in our house. I'm looking at $1000 to replace the wire or I could just splice it (which I am comfortable doing.)
I'm going to mount an 8"x8" electrical box in the ceiling and have it able to be accessed with a 10" drywall blank clover. I got pick related to make the splice.
I have never made a splice like this at this size and was curious if there is anything that stands out to the sparkys here that could be an issue to watch for.
>anything that stands out to the sparkys here that could be an issue to watch for.
Who left you enough slack in the wall to make a splice like that? Generous.
I have 3-4ft of slack on one end. I have no clue why they left that much but I'm grateful.
if it's aluminum, then use noalox or similar.
Also, most of those type of connectors use hex/allen lugs so make sure that you have the proper, tight fitting, (probably SAE) hex key so that you don't round it off. Those lugs often use some unusual thread so if you round out the center, you wind up buying a whole new connector. I don't mean to point out the obvious as if you have no common sense-- no disrespect intended.
Also, some of those connectors can be fed from either side instead of just one which can make routing/bending the conductors easier when you don't have a lot of access, although #2 isn't that bad.
The wire is copper and does need allen keys which I am good on. It also came with this small tube of silver colored stuff. I figured the best way to go into the box would be both cables on one side so I don't need to bend the cable much.
Thanks for the input.
Can you just use inline crimp lugs to join the two cables and heat shink the joins? Then leave boxed in the ceiling.
Make sure you torque it to spec. The thing you buy will give a spec
neutral wire on a switch?
are you moronic?
Yeah, it's the remote breaker switch.
It looks almost like the continuation of a white => black switch loop.
As if the previous box (wherever it is) relabeled their white to black, then that got extended. OP would be looking at box 2.
Box 1 ---- ((Box 2)) ----- Load
W/B ------ W/W ------- Load
Frick it, I'll be the moron to ask the obvious unasked question: so I stick a meter in a switch or box, what values am I looking for that tell me what wire is hit, neutral, and ground? Sincerely, soon to be dead from electrocution DIYer
Your meter should have an EMF meter. Contactless. It can detect AC in a single wire. That will help you to determine which is hot.
Pic related. Little tab sticking out at the top is the EMF sensor.
to add, your hot should be hitting at roughly 120V, the neutral should be much lower (single digits).
I am also moronic and this took me several frickarounds, don't feel bad. Feel alive.
(OP)
The EMF on these doesn't display a voltage. IDEK if that's possible. It displays relative field strength. So when you activate EMF mode, more than likely it displays nothing and makes no noise, until you get that little projection at the top - the sensor - close to a hot wire. It has to be very close, because in a tight space with a lot of wires, you want to be able to distinguish which wire is hot with some certainty.
There are also $6 contactless pen testers. Klein makes one for $15 I think. They give you more clearance in tight spaces. But you really shou,d have a decent meter like above, that also has the contactless EMF.
Other wires should not trigger the EMF, even if they have a small residual current. The idea is it's a go/no go if the wire is 'safe'. I say 'safe' because you should always wear PPE, including gloves, and treat all wiring with respect. Tag out breakers if you're working on a circuit. Make sure everyone is aware you will be. Otherwise, when the whambulance comes, everyone will be aware you were.
If you have a known ground and access to the conductor, use your leads to circuit the meter between them, to measure any electrical potential. Be observant: for that circuit, and building, what is the actual level of voltage? Is it 115.9? Is it 121v? It's not unusual to see a set deviation from 120v.
I also can't tell you how many outlets or switches I've opened, only to find something janky that needs to be fixed.
what is important to understand about electricity is that there is no such thing as an absolute voltage, there is only ever a voltage difference between two points.
its not like measuring a temperature or a speed where you read off a scale, its more like a measuring tape where you have to start at one point and measure a distance to another point.
electricians try to confuse you by calling things ground or neutral but these are just customsto make things easier.
in the usa, if you measure ~120V ac you are likely measuring between a 'hot' and either a 'neutral' or 'ground' if you measure ~240V you are likely measuring between two hots.
in science generally, it is preferred to first of all to postulate and then to determine if you are correct.
the same is true with circuits, an idea of what the circuit should do and what you expect to find will help you in determining which conductor is which.
wire colours are helpful but dont rely on them.
other clues such as, a large number of conductors connected together is more likely grounds or neutrals, can also be useful.
if you are simply swapping accessories taking a picture before starting can help later.
FALSE. Alternating current is in the form of a sine curve. The measurement is between the peak of the sine curve and zero, or the peaks between two separate sine curves.
FALSE mains voltage is rms not peak
>so I stick a meter in a switch or box, what values am I looking for that tell me what wire is hit, neutral, and ground?
Measuring between what and what? Meters have two test leads. First, find something you are relatively certain is ground. Like the bare wires/metal box. Touch one lead to that. Tough the other lead to an unknown wire. Neutral will read 0 volts or a few volts. Hots will read 120 V.
>Your meter should have an EMF meter. Contactless
Yeah, but stuffing that in a box full of wires, you are never certain which one you are reading. They are good for checking that nothing is hot or something is hot. But you are never certain exactly which wire. Use a two wire voltmeter with contacts. Or a wigger (less likely to be fooled by coupling to an open circuit).
I have cut a hole in the side of my house to run it off a generator. Step one. Step seven I don't know how electrical works. Frick israelites, 1488.
Pls hapl
Not gunna go deep into detail on the project and why im doing this specific lighting configuration.
Im installing some can lights for ambient lighting and replacing a ceiling fan with a top down spotlight. It's 4/14 wire to the ceiling fan box run to 2 switches for standard fan/light setup. Im running the cans on b/w/gr and the spotlight on r/w/gr.
If I run a dimmer for the cans, will the effect the center spotlight ? Part of me says yes, the other says no. Id hate to buy an expensive dimmer just to find out it won't work as intended.
heh
the spotlight came the other day and i went to install a little while ago and picked up some voltage on the hot wire with the switch turned off. checking with my leads to verify, it was 26v. i took the switch completely out and checked the hot feed (red) from the switch box. there should be 0v on it, but still pick up 26v.
all neutrals and grounds are tied respectively with eachother in both the switch box and the junction box in the attic (posted here: )
hot from source to ground measures 125v
neutral from source to ground measures 0.7v
hot to neutral at the source measures 125v
im kinda at a loss for where the foreign voltage is coming from. hope the half assed drawing helps
Yes please don't smack your 1 year old. I thought they may be older and were just getting into shit.
> asking for advice about something that can kill you on PrepHole.
it's pretty hard to get genuinely hurt with 120. worst that could happen is a fire I suppose
Graveyards are full of people who said 120 can't kill
How can I affix this plug-in hall light so the kids stop pulling it out and throwing it? I was thinking maybe take the box out and thread some non conductive cordage through those holes at the end of the plugs then anchor it to the box and put it back in the wall?
But open to anything
Have you tried disciplining your children? This way you won't need to rig up a potential for hazards. Maybe try this if smacking your kids doesn't work
1 year olds don't respond to positive punishment.
That is a good solution thanks
Late to this thread but as an electrician I am surprised PrepHole is having so much trouble with this fairly simple box. If that switch works the white is obviously being used as a hot, which by process of elimination means the blacks are being used as neutral. Obviously I'd recommend metering this out just to be safe, but it's not very difficult to grasp what is happening here.
Black is hot. White is Supreme.