Why not just adopt Meteor? It's already being used by so many NATO countries and is arguably the best air-to-air missile in service.
Because JATM was a project for over a decade that was put on the backburner due to not having a need for it and the US believes that the future of AAM technology is smaller and larger NEZ due to the issues inherent in getting locks on stealth aircraft while having larger AMRAAM sized missiles for non stealthy targets.
Just look at the design differences between the AIM-160 program and JATM
>And? I was commenting about how all their hyped missiles can't be carried internally
I think the issue is more that even if that precludes it from carried by a stealth fighter, that still gives a pretty big capability boost to non-stealth fighters that are acting in a missile truck role. That's the vast majority of the PLAAF, and even the US is going to be using a lot of F-15EX and Super hornets for quite some time.
I think it's pretty telling that even when the Ukrainians get AMRAAM equipped F-16's, that's not really going to resolve the issue of Foxhounds yeeting R-37's at them at extreme range. The hit probability will still be crap (especially against the F-16's better early warning systems), but the Falcon's can't exactly ignore the incoming and the range gap is still too great to do anything but go evasive while the Foxhound fricks off. I imagine Super Hornets in the Pacific could have a similar problem against PL-17's.
It seems reasonable that the US wants to get something considerably better than the AMRAAM. Even if they're leaning more towards high tech packages that you can fit into weapon bays.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>the US is going to be using a lot of F-15EX
I think they're currently at ~104 paid for with probably more orders to trickle in a few dozen at a time over the next decade bringing the US total purchase up to around 200-250 by the early mid 2030s.
>Missiles do seem to be the one main area where euros are still very competitive
Tanks, artillery, ships, SPAAG, IFVs, ...
Biggest issue right now is probably lack of homegrown 5th gen fighter.
>Missiles do seem to be the one main area where euros are still very competitive
Tanks, artillery, ships, SPAAG, IFVs, ...
Biggest issue right now is probably lack of homegrown 5th gen fighter.
the reason why a lot of european countries went into developing a better missile is that is cheaper and easier than going full 5th gen fight.
It makes your current fleet more deadly instead of getting a new fleet of stealth planes
Isn't Perun just a never-served Russophobic video gamer who just reads out Wikipedia articles and pretends to be a military expert? There have also been rumors that he is a homosexual, are they true?
>How did the USAF fall so far behind in terms of Fox 3 missiles?:
I haven't seen the video yet but here is my 2 cents. >they have only fallen behind in range because they have stuck with a relativly small booster >they stuck with small boosters because you can carry more of them >they care about carrying more because their doctrine is to start launching when the POK is very low and force the enemy defensive allowing them to close to launch-no-escape
How did I go?
As for what I think they should be doing it would be nice to see a hybrid rocket motor that can be controlled by the guidance computer giving lots of possible thrust profiles depending on launch conditions. >you can do a half throttle climb to thin air at long distance >you can cut the engine for a coast phase and relight for a full thrust vectored terminal phase >you can shoot down from high and let gravity do the work until the burn time equals the full thrust time to intercept greatly increasing terminal phase velocity and manuvering energy
>How did the USAF fall so far behind in terms of Fox 3 missiles?:
Two decades of focus on counter insurgency and under investing in air dominance weapons. Incrementally improving the ARAAM was considered good enough until it wasn't.
>they care about carrying more because their doctrine is to start launching when the POK is very low and force the enemy defensive allowing them to close to launch-no-escape
Not really. Being forced to fire at closer range is bad for the US doctrine wise cause it diminishes the advantage the US has in stealth aircraft. There's a reason the US is working of lots of new next gen air to air missles of various sizes, as well as integrating Meteor onto the F-35.
>Two decades of focus on counter insurgency
People here will cope and call you a vatnik but it's this. Post USSR, the Western defense establishment went full in on the neolib idea that global trade made peer and near peer conflicts a thing of the past.
Thankfully we've woken up and started pivoting back to planning for that, but it's shameful how far we let things slide.
>Post USSR, the Western defense establishment went full in on the neolib idea that global trade made peer and near peer conflicts a thing of the past.
They were somewhat correct. A peer/near-peer conflict between rational actors is pretty much a thing of the past. The main issue is that not all states are rational actors, as dictatorships act upon the dictator's wishes, not the strategic interests of the state.
>The U.S. Air Force has claimed the world’s longest air-to-air missile shot: an F-15 Eagle fighter taking down a BQM-167 target drone
Do you know enough about missiles to know it's not hard to set a record if all you care about is setting a record?
I'm
>How did the USAF fall so far behind in terms of Fox 3 missiles?:
I haven't seen the video yet but here is my 2 cents. >they have only fallen behind in range because they have stuck with a relativly small booster >they stuck with small boosters because you can carry more of them >they care about carrying more because their doctrine is to start launching when the POK is very low and force the enemy defensive allowing them to close to launch-no-escape
How did I go?
As for what I think they should be doing it would be nice to see a hybrid rocket motor that can be controlled by the guidance computer giving lots of possible thrust profiles depending on launch conditions. >you can do a half throttle climb to thin air at long distance >you can cut the engine for a coast phase and relight for a full thrust vectored terminal phase >you can shoot down from high and let gravity do the work until the burn time equals the full thrust time to intercept greatly increasing terminal phase velocity and manuvering energy
>but muh jet sustainers
Hybrids are cooler.
and no vatnig but being high and fast shooting at something high and fast coming straight at you increases the maximum distance to target at time of launch drastically while barely increasing or even decreasing the distance actually flown.
Here is an example of how missile ranges are measured.
If I stand at the end of a drag strip and throw a ping pong ball as the light turns green only for it to hit a top fuel dragster 4.5 seconds later I have thrown that ping pong ball a quater mile.
It's completely meaningless and only used to tell the public something when they can't tell us anything.
>actual achieved ranges
I'll trust any .mil source that gives the actual distance flow and total time of flight.
Because we don't have that I'll just point out for some reason they chose to launch from the fastest fighter still in US service.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>how DARE you not give me something that i'm not entitled to! >t-that doesn't count it's too fast!
Maybe you're just a dipshit?
3 months ago
Anonymous
I'm trying to point out that measuring "missile range" by any metric other than speed X time isn't measuring the distance flown.
You can be as salty about it as you want.
3 months ago
Anonymous
That's a moronic metric, anon. Actual missile effectiveness is a combination of a bunch of different factors, you can't reduce it to a single number like that.
Anyway as I was saying, maybe you're just a dipshit?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>you can't reduce it to a single number like that
Are you the same guy that posted
Prerun is a fricking joke
He seems to have learnt nothing from Ukraine
>Communist countries lie >Amraam C-7 from F-15 already shot down a target at nearly 200km range >MIC never reveals its true capabilities
The previous furthest kill was Phoenixes fired from Iranian F-14s at 100km distance.
because if so the irony is amazing.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Nope. I'm just here to call you a dumbass. An F-15 doing a max speed max altitude shot on a non/lightly maneuvering target drone to get a cool number is still more reputable and more impressive than whatever cope you're engaging in.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>whatever cope you're engaging in
You can't even point to anything I have said because all I have said is public "max range" numbers mean nothing.
Something you seemed to agree with here
That's a moronic metric, anon. Actual missile effectiveness is a combination of a bunch of different factors, you can't reduce it to a single number like that.
Anyway as I was saying, maybe you're just a dipshit?
Anyway I'll leave it at that, Perun threads are generally pretty good and we have fricked this one early by arguing over numbers we both agree aren't very important.
3 months ago
Anonymous
they are trying to tell us AMRAAM has improved a lot without being able to tell us, probably meteor range 200km+
Do you not get that Chinese and Russian range claims are the same? No body is getting 200km range against a maneuvering fighter sized target. But against a bomber sized one coming at you? Yes
As much as I shat on Perun basedjacks for spamming on /k/, he at least brings knowledge beyond a wikipedia page, unlike laserpork in his stealth video, who thinks stealth planes are invisible to radars because a 1961 radar and a CLOS missile couldn't shoot one down until it opened the bomb bay.
he makes all the same fundamental mistakes. unironically stating the phoenix has a range of "100 miles" automatically disqualifies you from having opinions about the technicalities of air to air combat
Isn't Perun just a never-served Russophobic video gamer who just reads out Wikipedia articles and pretends to be a military expert? There have also been rumors that he is a homosexual, are they true?
>Isn't Perun just a never-served Russophobic video gamer who just reads out Wikipedia articles and pretends to be a military expert?
No, he's the guy that explains military procurement to Australian politicians. >There have also been rumors that he is a homosexual, are they true?
So long as he isn't commiting male rape I don't care.
Okay first off, Perun gives credit to the Russian and Chinese militaries as often as he dunks on them. Second, bringing up concerns about Russophobia on a board that regularly chants "TZD" seems a tad on the oblivious side.
>Peregrine >Half the size of an AMRAAM >Similarish range and effectiveness >Perform Macross missile Massacres just from your weapons bay
Isn't technological progress nifty?
>people b***h about perun using numbers as given >explains in his video why he has to use numbers as given or you can't do anything on this topic because the actual numbers secret >even joking about adding chinese missiles to war thunder to get their real numbers leaked
It's nice you want to be angry over it but he starts out with the disclaimer that it's numbers as given so it's all kind of retared
[watches Perun hem and haw toward basic conclusions at 1.75x playback speed]
>1.75x
pleb
Because it actually starts to take mental effort again to decipher, if I go up all the way up to 2.0x
Chinese missile have x range because... w-well... they just do ok?!
They have longer range than the amraam because they're bigger. The massive b***h J-20 can only carry 4 PL-15 internally
PL-17 can't even be carried internally.
Because JATM was a project for over a decade that was put on the backburner due to not having a need for it and the US believes that the future of AAM technology is smaller and larger NEZ due to the issues inherent in getting locks on stealth aircraft while having larger AMRAAM sized missiles for non stealthy targets.
Just look at the design differences between the AIM-160 program and JATM
smaller missiles with larger NEZ*
He literally said PL-15's
And? I was commenting about how all their hyped missiles can't be carried internally
What are those missiles on the main bay then?
not pl-17s
PL-15 with ~120-190 mile range
PL-17 is too large to fit into an internal bay, but has a much further estimated range of like 250 miles.
>And? I was commenting about how all their hyped missiles can't be carried internally
I think the issue is more that even if that precludes it from carried by a stealth fighter, that still gives a pretty big capability boost to non-stealth fighters that are acting in a missile truck role. That's the vast majority of the PLAAF, and even the US is going to be using a lot of F-15EX and Super hornets for quite some time.
I think it's pretty telling that even when the Ukrainians get AMRAAM equipped F-16's, that's not really going to resolve the issue of Foxhounds yeeting R-37's at them at extreme range. The hit probability will still be crap (especially against the F-16's better early warning systems), but the Falcon's can't exactly ignore the incoming and the range gap is still too great to do anything but go evasive while the Foxhound fricks off. I imagine Super Hornets in the Pacific could have a similar problem against PL-17's.
It seems reasonable that the US wants to get something considerably better than the AMRAAM. Even if they're leaning more towards high tech packages that you can fit into weapon bays.
>the US is going to be using a lot of F-15EX
I think they're currently at ~104 paid for with probably more orders to trickle in a few dozen at a time over the next decade bringing the US total purchase up to around 200-250 by the early mid 2030s.
well amraam is an older missile compare to the pl-15 and pl-17
Missiles do seem to be the one main area where euros are still very competitive. Which is something at least.
>Missiles do seem to be the one main area where euros are still very competitive
Tanks, artillery, ships, SPAAG, IFVs, ...
Biggest issue right now is probably lack of homegrown 5th gen fighter.
the reason why a lot of european countries went into developing a better missile is that is cheaper and easier than going full 5th gen fight.
It makes your current fleet more deadly instead of getting a new fleet of stealth planes
>he gay
nah
t-Dominions autism enjoyer
EAGLE 1, FOX 2
>How did the USAF fall so far behind in terms of Fox 3 missiles?:
I haven't seen the video yet but here is my 2 cents.
>they have only fallen behind in range because they have stuck with a relativly small booster
>they stuck with small boosters because you can carry more of them
>they care about carrying more because their doctrine is to start launching when the POK is very low and force the enemy defensive allowing them to close to launch-no-escape
How did I go?
As for what I think they should be doing it would be nice to see a hybrid rocket motor that can be controlled by the guidance computer giving lots of possible thrust profiles depending on launch conditions.
>you can do a half throttle climb to thin air at long distance
>you can cut the engine for a coast phase and relight for a full thrust vectored terminal phase
>you can shoot down from high and let gravity do the work until the burn time equals the full thrust time to intercept greatly increasing terminal phase velocity and manuvering energy
>but muh jet sustainers
Hybrids are cooler.
>How did the USAF fall so far behind in terms of Fox 3 missiles?:
Two decades of focus on counter insurgency and under investing in air dominance weapons. Incrementally improving the ARAAM was considered good enough until it wasn't.
>they care about carrying more because their doctrine is to start launching when the POK is very low and force the enemy defensive allowing them to close to launch-no-escape
Not really. Being forced to fire at closer range is bad for the US doctrine wise cause it diminishes the advantage the US has in stealth aircraft. There's a reason the US is working of lots of new next gen air to air missles of various sizes, as well as integrating Meteor onto the F-35.
>Two decades of focus on counter insurgency
People here will cope and call you a vatnik but it's this. Post USSR, the Western defense establishment went full in on the neolib idea that global trade made peer and near peer conflicts a thing of the past.
Thankfully we've woken up and started pivoting back to planning for that, but it's shameful how far we let things slide.
>Post USSR, the Western defense establishment went full in on the neolib idea that global trade made peer and near peer conflicts a thing of the past.
They were somewhat correct. A peer/near-peer conflict between rational actors is pretty much a thing of the past. The main issue is that not all states are rational actors, as dictatorships act upon the dictator's wishes, not the strategic interests of the state.
Prerun is a fricking joke
He seems to have learnt nothing from Ukraine
>Communist countries lie
>Amraam C-7 from F-15 already shot down a target at nearly 200km range
>MIC never reveals its true capabilities
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a36134534/f-15-eagle-makes-worlds-longest-missile-shot/
The previous furthest kill was Phoenixes fired from Iranian F-14s at 100km distance.
>The U.S. Air Force has claimed the world’s longest air-to-air missile shot: an F-15 Eagle fighter taking down a BQM-167 target drone
Do you know enough about missiles to know it's not hard to set a record if all you care about is setting a record?
I'm
and no vatnig but being high and fast shooting at something high and fast coming straight at you increases the maximum distance to target at time of launch drastically while barely increasing or even decreasing the distance actually flown.
So? It's still the furthest and definitely high 100km+, which makes their official specs shit
Here is an example of how missile ranges are measured.
If I stand at the end of a drag strip and throw a ping pong ball as the light turns green only for it to hit a top fuel dragster 4.5 seconds later I have thrown that ping pong ball a quater mile.
It's completely meaningless and only used to tell the public something when they can't tell us anything.
>actual achieved ranges don't mean anything because i say so, ok?!
>actual achieved ranges
I'll trust any .mil source that gives the actual distance flow and total time of flight.
Because we don't have that I'll just point out for some reason they chose to launch from the fastest fighter still in US service.
>how DARE you not give me something that i'm not entitled to!
>t-that doesn't count it's too fast!
Maybe you're just a dipshit?
I'm trying to point out that measuring "missile range" by any metric other than speed X time isn't measuring the distance flown.
You can be as salty about it as you want.
That's a moronic metric, anon. Actual missile effectiveness is a combination of a bunch of different factors, you can't reduce it to a single number like that.
Anyway as I was saying, maybe you're just a dipshit?
>you can't reduce it to a single number like that
Are you the same guy that posted
because if so the irony is amazing.
Nope. I'm just here to call you a dumbass. An F-15 doing a max speed max altitude shot on a non/lightly maneuvering target drone to get a cool number is still more reputable and more impressive than whatever cope you're engaging in.
>whatever cope you're engaging in
You can't even point to anything I have said because all I have said is public "max range" numbers mean nothing.
Something you seemed to agree with here
Anyway I'll leave it at that, Perun threads are generally pretty good and we have fricked this one early by arguing over numbers we both agree aren't very important.
they are trying to tell us AMRAAM has improved a lot without being able to tell us, probably meteor range 200km+
moron.
> S-s-so!
Test range is not the same as real life. Pretty obvious.
Do you not get that Chinese and Russian range claims are the same? No body is getting 200km range against a maneuvering fighter sized target. But against a bomber sized one coming at you? Yes
As much as I shat on Perun basedjacks for spamming on /k/, he at least brings knowledge beyond a wikipedia page, unlike laserpork in his stealth video, who thinks stealth planes are invisible to radars because a 1961 radar and a CLOS missile couldn't shoot one down until it opened the bomb bay.
he makes all the same fundamental mistakes. unironically stating the phoenix has a range of "100 miles" automatically disqualifies you from having opinions about the technicalities of air to air combat
Why not just adopt Meteor? It's already being used by so many NATO countries and is arguably the best air-to-air missile in service.
NIH syndrome. Also probably several politicians complaining immediately that the money is not spent in their state.
Isn't Perun just a never-served Russophobic video gamer who just reads out Wikipedia articles and pretends to be a military expert? There have also been rumors that he is a homosexual, are they true?
>Isn't Perun just a never-served Russophobic video gamer who just reads out Wikipedia articles and pretends to be a military expert?
No, he's the guy that explains military procurement to Australian politicians.
>There have also been rumors that he is a homosexual, are they true?
So long as he isn't commiting male rape I don't care.
> My beloved Perun is the guy that explains military procurement to Australian politicians.
Which is something for which you can provide a citation. And it better be good.
just email him and ask, idiot. that's as good as it gets
I dunno, what do you say about allegations that your mum's banging every man in town?
>Russophobic
your shilling is shit tier
Okay first off, Perun gives credit to the Russian and Chinese militaries as often as he dunks on them. Second, bringing up concerns about Russophobia on a board that regularly chants "TZD" seems a tad on the oblivious side.
>Russophobic
He's not a russophobe but a russorealist.
>Peregrine
>Half the size of an AMRAAM
>Similarish range and effectiveness
>Perform Macross missile Massacres just from your weapons bay
Isn't technological progress nifty?
the peace dividend and GWOT.
Sino-flankers have the longest stick right now
Should we start calling them "clankers"?
>people b***h about perun using numbers as given
>explains in his video why he has to use numbers as given or you can't do anything on this topic because the actual numbers secret >even joking about adding chinese missiles to war thunder to get their real numbers leaked
It's nice you want to be angry over it but he starts out with the disclaimer that it's numbers as given so it's all kind of retared
Yeah they're just posting emotional dumb shit in response to a basic explanation of the topic.
logistics