Its pretty clear why Russia went down to 6 from 12 tubes. Its to copy HIMARS. But they seemed to have forgotten why HIMARS looks like that. HIMARS has six rockets because NATO stnadard is to load MLRS systems using blocks which in the case of M30/31 is a pack of six. This means you are not limited to only rockets with the dimensions of M30/31 but can load ATACMS or GLSDB, just fewer, in the same launch vehicle. This is also the same system MARS/M270 uses but that can carry two. The pack system also speeds reloads up. While the single load is heavier you only have to move one object with a crane, thus being easier, something RU has not done, keeping single tube loading.
I don't think going down to 6 is necessarily a bad idea. When are you going ot need to put 12 rockets on a target if placed accurately, 6 will typically be sufficent for weapons of that calibre. The question is wether those 6 will be accurate. RU guidance was never great but chip sanctions hurt and I wouldn't be suprised if the guidence for GMLRS rockets are prioritesed for other systems like, strategic missiles, drones, SAM systems and EW assests.
>Its pretty clear why Russia went down to 6 from 12 tubes. Its to copy HIMARS. But they seemed to have forgotten why HIMARS looks like that. HIMARS has six rockets because NATO stnadard is to load MLRS systems using blocks which in the case of M30/31 is a pack of six.
They might be doing it for the higher mobility. Part of himars is the guidance system but the other part is the shoot and scoot aspect
I expect the inevitable 2023 Ukrainian version of HIMARS to be far more sophisticated and impressive (most likely placing emphasis on speed, so it can get to places quickly).
cargo cults try to copy things way beyond their understanding because whatever they're copying was good for them in the past, and expect it to work if they just get the rough shape right.
pretty applicable tbh
>And how exactly will Russians manufacture this thing under sanctions, brain drain and bombardment?
Any shortages the production may have will be compensated with more mobiks.
>And how exactly will Russians manufacture this thing under sanctions, brain drain and bombardment?
Poorly
From OP's article.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/newest-sarma-mlrs-being-created-in-russia/ >As previously reported, in 2022, imported components were found in Russian missile guidance units for Tornado-S rocket artillery systems. >In the remains of Russian weapons, experts detected civilian electronic items that do not meet military standard requirements. These are parts made for use in household appliances.
When will people stop trying to hype the Russian cargo cult...
>You use big words without understanding their meaning.
More or less describes modern Russia's attempt to one up western weapons systems, works until people see them in battle.
They're using low-grade chips that don't have a prayer of competing with the high-end chips that the US and it's allies are now monopolizing with Biden's CHIPS Act. Now, not even China can access the high-end chips. Tech gaps like these make it possible for a humble Patriot to take out the mighty hypersonic Khinzal.
That is still not what the word means. Cargo cult is about not understanding the concept correctly and trying to recreate it. What you describe is the correct understanding of the concept. Tornado-S already had a GMLRS variant of the missile, this simply sounds like the next iteration.
>Cargo cult is about not understanding the concept correctly and trying to recreate it.
NTA you're quoting there but I was making a joke that every time the Russians announce something they and their simps act like it is some quantum leap in technology when in reality they just lie about what it is capable of so it might as well be coconut radio's and stick shaped rifles when compared to America's versions.
But for the record, no I was not literally implying that they are a bunch of natives on some Polynesian island worshipping facsimiles of WW2 US equipment so you can rest easy.
11 months ago
Anonymous
cargo cults try to copy things way beyond their understanding because whatever they're copying was good for them in the past, and expect it to work if they just get the rough shape right.
pretty applicable tbh
No this is NOT a correct understanding of the concept. It's not palletized so it requires a specialized crane and is slow as shit to load. Its not standardized so it requires a specialized base. It is a worse HIMARS that fails to understand why HIMARS works and is so scary.
NTA that used "cargo cult" before. But I dare say he hit bullseye. This may look like a HIMARS, but its a glorified Katyusha. So yes, "Cargo Cult" applies.
Not any earlier anons, but being pedantic I think I'd more call this "potemkincult" than "cargo cult". Russia still has some engineers and weapon techs, and while tsar monke might genuinely have lost himself in a warp bubble of chaotic misinfo, I'm sure there are still lower rung men who perfectly well understand that this thing is a fake and not anything like HIMARS. The basic stuff we anons are describing aren't mysteries.
So it's not that they don't understand it's just that they don't care. The point is to impress the tsar/emperor, to do PR and throw up a facade. It's another Potemkin Village weapon, which they've been doing for ages and ages. Weapons that will look good in parades and let them claim internet victories, details like performance or standardization or mass production or logistics are irrelevant. As Russia continues to diminish these things become ever more pathetic, but I'd still put this Sarma in the same category as Armata or Su-57/75 or SUEPR NOOKPEDO TIDALWAVE or whatever. None of that is "cargo cult" but they aren't really "future foundation of our military" arms programs in the way the West understands it either but PR.
No this is NOT a correct understanding of the concept. It's not palletized so it requires a specialized crane and is slow as shit to load. Its not standardized so it requires a specialized base. It is a worse HIMARS that fails to understand why HIMARS works and is so scary.
NTA that used "cargo cult" before. But I dare say he hit bullseye. This may look like a HIMARS, but its a glorified Katyusha. So yes, "Cargo Cult" applies.
cargo cults try to copy things way beyond their understanding because whatever they're copying was good for them in the past, and expect it to work if they just get the rough shape right.
pretty applicable tbh
> In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he's the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.
t. Feynman
The image on the left is a promotional piece for an ice cream business in north west England. They have a different large scale sculpture every years. Its celebrating the nearby Lovell radio telescope at Jodrell Bank Observatory which was featured in the last Tom Baker episode of Dr Who (he fell off it and regenerated).
I liked the Dalek and the Bee was quite striking the last time I went past.
https://snugburys.co.uk/sculptures
I'm a little confused how this has become seen as an example of the practice of Vanuatuan cultists when its the work of Cheshire farmers diversifying their business with a roadside cafe.
Coincidentally, Jodrell Bank was asked by the Soviets to track their Lunik 2 probe, because they didn't have the ability to actually track their own spacecraft as far as the moon at the time. The observatory would continue to track Soviet probes even when their services were no longer necessary, and they even intercepted the first images taken of the lunar surface. These pictures were then published in the Daily Express before Moscow got to even see them.
>Now this is a proper MLRS >Requires another vehicle to load one missile at a time
Ever heard of a missile pod that can be easily loaded with the built-in crane? These guys are truly a second-rate army famalam
As usual, they probably do something counterintuitive af like putting a giant bulldozer blade on it and using it to bury Russian soldiers alive in their trenches.
Fricking hell, Russians were bragging about BM-30s and their Tornado systems being superior but apparently neither systems can compete despite the latter being new.
Considering the current state of Russia, even making a handful of half-baked prototypes would be considered a success.
himars is just a missile truck all the magic is in the missiles themselves when will they realise that putting a shitty missile on a truck wont instantly be as successful
Kinda, I mean yes the true magic is the missiles but the system does matter and as earlier anons said thought goes into that too. In particular the logistics aspect, missiles are loaded as a standardized unit not in a tube, HIMARS has one unit and is wheeled, M270 has 2 units and is tracked. Having a standard unit that can be loaded rapidly by crane has a ton of in-use advantages. Speed in getting back to action, transport, and also not being stuck with a specific diameter. Same platform can have 6 GMLRS missiles in a unit, or at the opposite extreme just 1 ATACMS (610mm), and swap between them/mix/match as desired via same procedure as reload.
Not disagreeing with you that it's not the vehicle that makes for 1m CEP or other qualities, but platform aspects do matter for cadence and logistics and flexibility, interfacing with the rest of the battle space, ability to shoot/scoot etc. Russia of course gets all THAT wrong too, on top of primitive missiles.
Guided by what? A Sextant? Russia doesn't produce enough of their own electronics. They are ripping apart appliances they import to make missiles. Russia's problems seem to be:
1. Producing enough rockets
2. Transporting them into theatre.
3. Loading the MLRS and shooting them at targets of opportunity quickly.
4. Making the rockets hit the broad side of a barn.
Russia, theoretically, has plenty of systems to shoot rockets, adding one more isn't going to help. Secondly, HIMARs does #2 and 3 above by palletizing the rounds to make them easy to ship, and using an internal crane to load them quickly. Thirdly, they use GPS to accurately strike their targets. This system doesn't solve any of Russia's problems, it doesn't make the rockets more available, it doesn't make them easier to ship/load, and it doesn't make them more effective. Building this system didn't improve Russia's situation at all, while the money it cost could have gone to wards making the weapons they do have effective.
>all the HIMARS magic comes down to the proper guidance system and self loading crane >ziggers are unable to not only replicate those features but also to identify them >cargo-cult HIMARS is made instead
I'm all in for the totalvgenocide of zigger population, not because I hate them but because I pity them.
I looked it up and as far as I can tell it's just a smerch cut down to fit on a lighter truck. Honestly I imagine they'll find it pretty handy but aside from "more missile trucks" it doesn't sound like it's adding any capability they didn't already have.
Actually, that should be one of the few things that they can copy since Russia has massive titanium reserves. Of course, doing so is largely pointless for them since the reason the US does it it because it can move one under a Chinook to get arti anywhere they want and I don't think Russia has nearly the same heavy lift rotary capabilities.
Of course they can. Without an extensive network of CIA shell companies, we would never have been able to get enough titanium to create the SR71, while they've got so much of the shit they make helmets and plates out of it.
having titanium =/= the ability to manufacture with titanium
Thats such a weird cope. Russians are deficient in a number of areas such as microelectronics and software, but working raw materials has never been one of their shortcomings.
No he's partially right, the Russians actually forgot how to they used electron beam welding and worked titanium to make Tu-160's.
They didn't "forget".
They just spent the past >30 years selling off production lines, machinery and tools for old soviet stuff, and retiring people who were trained to operate them without training new ones.
The country that sent the first man to space is gone.
Of course they can. Without an extensive network of CIA shell companies, we would never have been able to get enough titanium to create the SR71, while they've got so much of the shit they make helmets and plates out of it.
>Russia >upgrading
LMAO, the vatBlack folk can't even properly supply their shit army with refurb 60's leftovers by now, let alone think about upgrading anything noteworthy.
Their GLONASS satellites are literally breaking apart in space as we speak and these morons and dumping whatever money they have left in meme weapons that aren't any better than MLRS they've built in the 70s.
At this point their defense industry money laundering.
i though Uragan is supposed to be the better alternative to HIMARS? Not anymore huh?
>it's just half of a uragan on a truckbed
>they're literally just copying the HIMARS template
cargo cult country.
>"We're getting our shit pushed in, what is the Amerikanski secret??"
>6 tubes better than 12
>yuo are of genius Vasily
kek
Its pretty clear why Russia went down to 6 from 12 tubes. Its to copy HIMARS. But they seemed to have forgotten why HIMARS looks like that. HIMARS has six rockets because NATO stnadard is to load MLRS systems using blocks which in the case of M30/31 is a pack of six. This means you are not limited to only rockets with the dimensions of M30/31 but can load ATACMS or GLSDB, just fewer, in the same launch vehicle. This is also the same system MARS/M270 uses but that can carry two. The pack system also speeds reloads up. While the single load is heavier you only have to move one object with a crane, thus being easier, something RU has not done, keeping single tube loading.
I don't think going down to 6 is necessarily a bad idea. When are you going ot need to put 12 rockets on a target if placed accurately, 6 will typically be sufficent for weapons of that calibre. The question is wether those 6 will be accurate. RU guidance was never great but chip sanctions hurt and I wouldn't be suprised if the guidence for GMLRS rockets are prioritesed for other systems like, strategic missiles, drones, SAM systems and EW assests.
Good analysis.
>Its pretty clear why Russia went down to 6 from 12 tubes. Its to copy HIMARS. But they seemed to have forgotten why HIMARS looks like that. HIMARS has six rockets because NATO stnadard is to load MLRS systems using blocks which in the case of M30/31 is a pack of six.
They might be doing it for the higher mobility. Part of himars is the guidance system but the other part is the shoot and scoot aspect
>6 tubes better than 12
take that back
>6 tubes better than 12
Bullshit, everyone knows that eight tires are better than four tiers and the same goes for tubes, HATOtroony.
I expect the inevitable 2023 Ukrainian version of HIMARS to be far more sophisticated and impressive (most likely placing emphasis on speed, so it can get to places quickly).
I know what cargo cult means
I dont understand the way you are using the term
cargo cults try to copy things way beyond their understanding because whatever they're copying was good for them in the past, and expect it to work if they just get the rough shape right.
pretty applicable tbh
Then you're an idiot who doesnt understand what cargo cult means.
what pajeet shit rag you get this gem from brown shithead? its end of your shift soon
>what pajeet shit rag you get this gem from brown shithead
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/newest-sarma-mlrs-being-created-in-russia/
>guided munitions
Let me guess, inertial navigation? Or, god forbid, GLONASS?
Glonass is in the ass
Built-in Garmin GPS made for trucks.
And how exactly will Russians manufacture this thing under sanctions, brain drain and bombardment?
The Ukrainians are getting so much help from the West they've RESTARTED their domestic tank production.
>And how exactly will Russians manufacture this thing under sanctions, brain drain and bombardment?
Any shortages the production may have will be compensated with more mobiks.
With Russian incompetence, how long will this ripoff of HIMARS is captured and in Ukrainian hands?
>And how exactly will Russians manufacture this thing under sanctions, brain drain and bombardment?
Poorly
From OP's article.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/newest-sarma-mlrs-being-created-in-russia/
>As previously reported, in 2022, imported components were found in Russian missile guidance units for Tornado-S rocket artillery systems.
>In the remains of Russian weapons, experts detected civilian electronic items that do not meet military standard requirements. These are parts made for use in household appliances.
When will people stop trying to hype the Russian cargo cult...
You use big words without understanding their meaning.
>You use big words without understanding their meaning.
More or less describes modern Russia's attempt to one up western weapons systems, works until people see them in battle.
They're using low-grade chips that don't have a prayer of competing with the high-end chips that the US and it's allies are now monopolizing with Biden's CHIPS Act. Now, not even China can access the high-end chips. Tech gaps like these make it possible for a humble Patriot to take out the mighty hypersonic Khinzal.
That is still not what the word means. Cargo cult is about not understanding the concept correctly and trying to recreate it. What you describe is the correct understanding of the concept. Tornado-S already had a GMLRS variant of the missile, this simply sounds like the next iteration.
>Cargo cult is about not understanding the concept correctly and trying to recreate it.
NTA you're quoting there but I was making a joke that every time the Russians announce something they and their simps act like it is some quantum leap in technology when in reality they just lie about what it is capable of so it might as well be coconut radio's and stick shaped rifles when compared to America's versions.
But for the record, no I was not literally implying that they are a bunch of natives on some Polynesian island worshipping facsimiles of WW2 US equipment so you can rest easy.
Not any earlier anons, but being pedantic I think I'd more call this "potemkincult" than "cargo cult". Russia still has some engineers and weapon techs, and while tsar monke might genuinely have lost himself in a warp bubble of chaotic misinfo, I'm sure there are still lower rung men who perfectly well understand that this thing is a fake and not anything like HIMARS. The basic stuff we anons are describing aren't mysteries.
So it's not that they don't understand it's just that they don't care. The point is to impress the tsar/emperor, to do PR and throw up a facade. It's another Potemkin Village weapon, which they've been doing for ages and ages. Weapons that will look good in parades and let them claim internet victories, details like performance or standardization or mass production or logistics are irrelevant. As Russia continues to diminish these things become ever more pathetic, but I'd still put this Sarma in the same category as Armata or Su-57/75 or SUEPR NOOKPEDO TIDALWAVE or whatever. None of that is "cargo cult" but they aren't really "future foundation of our military" arms programs in the way the West understands it either but PR.
shut up nerd
No this is NOT a correct understanding of the concept. It's not palletized so it requires a specialized crane and is slow as shit to load. Its not standardized so it requires a specialized base. It is a worse HIMARS that fails to understand why HIMARS works and is so scary.
NTA that used "cargo cult" before. But I dare say he hit bullseye. This may look like a HIMARS, but its a glorified Katyusha. So yes, "Cargo Cult" applies.
> In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he's the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.
t. Feynman
>high-end chips
>for weapons
You are moronic. Low nm chips are fir cellphone, weapons use mature chip.
moronic post gb2 reddit
I understood the meaning and implication perfectly well.
Russia is a cargo cult failed state that can't even match the capabilities of the USSR.
The image on the left is a promotional piece for an ice cream business in north west England. They have a different large scale sculpture every years. Its celebrating the nearby Lovell radio telescope at Jodrell Bank Observatory which was featured in the last Tom Baker episode of Dr Who (he fell off it and regenerated).
I liked the Dalek and the Bee was quite striking the last time I went past.
https://snugburys.co.uk/sculptures
I'm a little confused how this has become seen as an example of the practice of Vanuatuan cultists when its the work of Cheshire farmers diversifying their business with a roadside cafe.
Coincidentally, Jodrell Bank was asked by the Soviets to track their Lunik 2 probe, because they didn't have the ability to actually track their own spacecraft as far as the moon at the time. The observatory would continue to track Soviet probes even when their services were no longer necessary, and they even intercepted the first images taken of the lunar surface. These pictures were then published in the Daily Express before Moscow got to even see them.
>Now this is a proper MLRS
>Requires another vehicle to load one missile at a time
Ever heard of a missile pod that can be easily loaded with the built-in crane? These guys are truly a second-rate army famalam
In fairness, our Crusader system needed such a support vehicle as well.
It's part of why we abandoned it. Sadly we have NOT given the prototype to Ukraine.
You can load Crusader storage by hand anon
We should give the prototype to Ukraine.
As usual, they probably do something counterintuitive af like putting a giant bulldozer blade on it and using it to bury Russian soldiers alive in their trenches.
Or make it some kind of Lethal Weapon III thing.
I dont think they ammo for it. Crusader can use standard 155mm NATO shells but it had its own modular powder charges they were never mass produced.
>more effective and cheaper than HIMARs
Just paint this on it and done.
Fricking hell, Russians were bragging about BM-30s and their Tornado systems being superior but apparently neither systems can compete despite the latter being new.
Considering the current state of Russia, even making a handful of half-baked prototypes would be considered a success.
>We have HIMARS at home
>individually loaded tubes
himars is just a missile truck all the magic is in the missiles themselves when will they realise that putting a shitty missile on a truck wont instantly be as successful
Kinda, I mean yes the true magic is the missiles but the system does matter and as earlier anons said thought goes into that too. In particular the logistics aspect, missiles are loaded as a standardized unit not in a tube, HIMARS has one unit and is wheeled, M270 has 2 units and is tracked. Having a standard unit that can be loaded rapidly by crane has a ton of in-use advantages. Speed in getting back to action, transport, and also not being stuck with a specific diameter. Same platform can have 6 GMLRS missiles in a unit, or at the opposite extreme just 1 ATACMS (610mm), and swap between them/mix/match as desired via same procedure as reload.
Not disagreeing with you that it's not the vehicle that makes for 1m CEP or other qualities, but platform aspects do matter for cadence and logistics and flexibility, interfacing with the rest of the battle space, ability to shoot/scoot etc. Russia of course gets all THAT wrong too, on top of primitive missiles.
Apparently these will use guided missiles
Guided by what? A Sextant? Russia doesn't produce enough of their own electronics. They are ripping apart appliances they import to make missiles. Russia's problems seem to be:
1. Producing enough rockets
2. Transporting them into theatre.
3. Loading the MLRS and shooting them at targets of opportunity quickly.
4. Making the rockets hit the broad side of a barn.
Russia, theoretically, has plenty of systems to shoot rockets, adding one more isn't going to help. Secondly, HIMARs does #2 and 3 above by palletizing the rounds to make them easy to ship, and using an internal crane to load them quickly. Thirdly, they use GPS to accurately strike their targets. This system doesn't solve any of Russia's problems, it doesn't make the rockets more available, it doesn't make them easier to ship/load, and it doesn't make them more effective. Building this system didn't improve Russia's situation at all, while the money it cost could have gone to wards making the weapons they do have effective.
They're just ignorant as far as I can tell.
>cuts down a BM30 to 6 tubes to put it on a smaller truck
>LOOK AT OUR NEW WUNDERWAFFE!
Pathetic attempt to put lipstick on a pig.
>all the HIMARS magic comes down to the proper guidance system and self loading crane
>ziggers are unable to not only replicate those features but also to identify them
>cargo-cult HIMARS is made instead
I'm all in for the totalvgenocide of zigger population, not because I hate them but because I pity them.
>fails to destroy a single himars in months (almost a year btw)
>y..yeah w..we have our own himars but its way better
absolutly buck broken lmao
Sarma? More like sarna.
Hey, what's so bad about a Battletech wiki?
>sees omnipod mounted ATMs
>builds one shot LRMs instead of MMLs
Someone just put these subhumans out of their misery
weighs more, fires further, maybe might get some GMLRS
I looked it up and as far as I can tell it's just a smerch cut down to fit on a lighter truck. Honestly I imagine they'll find it pretty handy but aside from "more missile trucks" it doesn't sound like it's adding any capability they didn't already have.
What kind of Yacht does a battery of these new Sarma's buy, theoretically speaking?
Asking for a friend.
That´s cool, Russia is already upgrading hardware thanks to the real warfare experience and nato tech captured.
you seem to be coping
>sir it appears to be a howitzer made with titanium to lower its weight
>shit we can't make that
Actually, that should be one of the few things that they can copy since Russia has massive titanium reserves. Of course, doing so is largely pointless for them since the reason the US does it it because it can move one under a Chinook to get arti anywhere they want and I don't think Russia has nearly the same heavy lift rotary capabilities.
having titanium =/= the ability to manufacture with titanium
Thats such a weird cope. Russians are deficient in a number of areas such as microelectronics and software, but working raw materials has never been one of their shortcomings.
Resource extraction dosne't seem to be a problem. They even seem good enough refining.
However they seem to struggle to turn tha refined material into useful goods like ballbearings.
No he's partially right, the Russians actually forgot how to they used electron beam welding and worked titanium to make Tu-160's.
They didn't "forget".
They just spent the past >30 years selling off production lines, machinery and tools for old soviet stuff, and retiring people who were trained to operate them without training new ones.
The country that sent the first man to space is gone.
Of course they can. Without an extensive network of CIA shell companies, we would never have been able to get enough titanium to create the SR71, while they've got so much of the shit they make helmets and plates out of it.
>Russia
>upgrading
LMAO, the vatBlack folk can't even properly supply their shit army with refurb 60's leftovers by now, let alone think about upgrading anything noteworthy.
>russia has a problem
>annouce said problem has been solved
>move on
Such is the life in russia
Range > everything else
YOU LOSE
Another short-run production miracle weapon, of which they will build, what? Several dozen?
>more effective
[citation needed]
racist meme belong to /b/
Go gang rape someone about it brownoid.
Their GLONASS satellites are literally breaking apart in space as we speak and these morons and dumping whatever money they have left in meme weapons that aren't any better than MLRS they've built in the 70s.
At this point their defense industry money laundering.
What happened to the Smerch and Uragan?