The Forest Service (if they actually were competent and not 100% asleep at the wheel) would embark on a massive program to modernize and revitalize trails and access across the country. If your favorite trail requires a permit to hike - that means infrastructure is inadequate. Such trails should be widened where possible, and additional parking built.
For the life of me I cannot understand how you can have a population that doubles or triples in some areas, and they still have very limited parking, and cater to local landowners who don't want any more - instead of seizing small parcels where necessary to build in more parking. What is the point of public land if it is difficult to access with limited parking, permit requirements, and bottlenecks on narrow trails? The Forest Service is PAID to fix such issues.
We get it...you're a butthurt moron. Thanks for stopping by.
Ahhh... the great outdoors!
Obviously the parking lots are built next to the trails so you can access them. I don't think there's a single trail THAT popular as to require as much parking as in your picture, but many trails have only a few spaces or sketchy dirt pull-offs and could use clearer signage, more room, and paving.
strawberry?
Wider trails? Just go walk on some dirt/gravel logging road, anon. Foot traffic trails only need to be wide enough for foot traffic.
Unless there's traffic in both directions and it is sometimes heavy - which creates bottlenecks - so you need to build out to doubletrack. Some trails have way more users than capacity. You have to be able to easily pass people or a traffic jam will ensue.
I think you're just bad at picking out good trails. Good trails aren't swarmed with people.
Frick off back to the city you urbanizing ADA cripple Black person
I don't understand how you can have no sympathy for people with different abilities than you. Also, parking and trail widening have much more to do with crowd capacity than ADA - although accessibility is a bonus.
mindless fearmongering - this is why many areas get abandoned that could be well loved and maintained I hate this shitty lazy boomer mindset that doing nothing is actually the REAL virtuous way...
that's neither mindless fearmongering or a boomer mindset. there's a certain decorum involved with hiking/camping/outdoors. people who understand this, and know how to behave will make the extra effort to get out there.
Encouraging people from urban areas or wherever who couldn't be bothered previously to come out to the woods will 100% ruin it for everyone else. i mean you might like bluetooth speakers, litter, graffiti, theft and all the other diversity related issues, but i'll take a hard pass.
it sucks that some people are disabled and unable to make it out there as easily as everyone else, but sacrificing the qualities that make the outdoors great to accommodate them is foolish.
>different abilities than you
They don't breathe fire or fly, they can't walk wtf that's not a different ability, I can also sit down.
Anyway I get people with some disabilities wanting to do PrepHole stuff and I think they should do what's within their power but turning nature reserves into ADA friendly places kinda negates the point of them supposedly being unspoiled nature (which is hazardous even to the fit).
Imaging ruining the forest because you want some fricking moron who can't think let alone move his fricking legs to see le great outdoors :))
Equality believers like you deserve to die for being WRONG
nahh, if we want to preserve wilderness and PrepHole areas, they should be even harder to reach.
if you cater the forests towards the people who will actively make them worse.. don't be surprised when it happens.
My trails are narrow, rough, overgrown, and covered in dead fall. If you aren't willing to scramble this isn't your neck of the woods and trails that fit OPs criteria exist the closer you get to metropolitan areas or national parks because those are places where thse problems exist. Keep 'modernizing' nature to city/ national parking lots and let's just focus on keeping things the way they are outside them as best we can maybe?
do you want MORE overcrowding?
With population growth - increased use is inevitable and just ignoring it and hoping it goes away is irresponsible.
Shut the frick up
Maybe curtail the population growt... I mean immigra.. I mean invasion.
Yeah, stop the invasion and a whole slew of other problems go away. Yeah, that’s it.
Speaking of, did you hear the Biden Administration recently approved 300,000 work visas for previously-illegal immigrants from Mexico to help "stimulate the economy" i.e frick the job market. For reference 300k people is like adding an entire new top 50 city in the US, entirely of adults taking existing jobs.
Yes it's like taking the adult population of Atlanta and doubling it.
absolutely disgusting.
the amount of overlap between mindless progs b***hing about 'living wages' and 'housing costs' and "refugees welcome" is truly mind boggling.
can these cretinous morons not connect the fricking dots? jesus christ.
I had a long discussion with this sort of person and they concluded:
>If you're losing a job to unskilled immigrants, you just suck and deserve poverty
>If you're losing skilled labor you weren't that skilled anway
>The US deserves to open its job market to all of Latin America as reparations for the CIA's drug operations under the border.
This of course neglecting to address that even if you outcompete immigrant labor they still act as a wage suppressant.
these types never have to live with the consequences of the demographic destruction they are rooting for. juan or tyrone will not hesitate just because they consider themselves an ally.
>taking existing jobs.
jobs that are not being taken by US citizens. Lets see you pretend this isnt true.
>immigrants work for sub-min wage
>actual Americans don’t
>deport all immigrants
>work must get done
>job must pay actual Americans more money to attract them
>job gets done
Is it that difficult to see?
work for sub-min wage
not a factual statement- especially if they are legal.
>>work must get done
right meanwhile my town is filled available jobs not being taken. Staffing shortages are rampant and greatly affect productivity. You need to leave the echo chamber and actually go /Outside
You can easily trade “sub-min wage” for “wage that non-immigrants won’t work for”. The argument remains the same.
If your town started offering $50 an hour for entry level positions and made that known, they would have tons of applicants. I also work somewhere where a lot of people have left and we are at ~70% capacity. The issue isn’t a shortage of manpower. If our workplaces raised the wages they would attract people. This would effect the overall cost of the service/good, yeah, but let’s not pretend like we simply MUST have immigrants or the economy won’t function.
I enjoy my job and wouldn’t. But let’s say 50 an hour.
>wouldn’t.
there you go. You will not do it so Maria has to. Thanks.
>one anon will not do this job, therefore no legal citizen would do this job
Do you understand how prices work, you fricking moron? If you can’t afford to hire people at the wage they’re willing to work for, you raise your prices. Sounds like you just have a shit business model.
>If your town started offering $50 an hour for entry level positions and made that known, they would have tons of applicants
they would also go out of business. How fricking moronic are you?
The biggest cause of illegal immigration is overstaying a work visa, anon. While they may be legal, they won’t always be and a lot stay, and employers take advantage of this by paying them less. Who are they gonna report their employers to, the police who will just deport them? So no one speaks up but it essentially fricks over the minimum wage. I know this because I’ve seen it happen to plenty of friends, family, and people all around, especially in Chicago and milwaukee
so you are saying - import lots more illegals - but make them actually work for it by fixing up all the shitty abandoned trails?
No Im saying frick your trails you dumb b***h. How about you fricking crawl on them, maybe that’ll widen it you fricking whale
>>job must pay actual Americans more money to attract them
how much $ per hour will it take you to clean my house?
Let me introduce you to the economic concept of price discovery. There is no job an American "Won't do". There are only wages an American won't do a job for. In a healthy economy, this wage is determined by employers offering more money for a job until all the needed labor slots are filled. In a controlled, anti-citizen global economy, this price discovery never happens: Companies offer a wage that is not agreeable to workers, and then they say "Government, nobody wants to work!" and the government lets them bring in immnigrants to do the job instead of discovering a price for labor with American citizens.
>patronizing cope.
no shit sherlock. But Farmers cannot afford the wage it would take to get YOU to pick strawberries. They would go out of business.
No, they wouldn’t. They would simply charge more for producing strawberries or they would pick a more profitable crop. Where does the dumbass “entitlement to cheap labor” come from?
>simply charge more for producing strawberries
>doesnt into price elasticity.
They would have to charge so much nobody would buy them...then out of business.
And? Things go out of business. That's how healthy economies work. It's less healthy for your economy to subsidize failed business models through immigration than it is to let unprofitable models go out of business.
>That's how healthy economies wor
nope. the small guys cant afford the irrational wages but the big guys can...so small guys go out of business soon a strawberry monoply by GlobolHomoCorporateMachine
Is that what you want Ted? There is a reason why predatory pricing is illegal.
they'd probably figure out ways to harvest them that is less labor intensive... or you know what?
Back in the olden days they'd have kids take time out of school to help with the harvest.
sure they might be set back a few percentage points on those super crucial standardized tests; but we wouldn't have to resort to turning middle america into a barrio.
small fricking price to pay anon, seriously. we don't need a flood of 3rd world indios shitting up our small towns just so you can get cheap produce.
>t. eastern oregon/washington native.
this is just a smoke screen for Brown People Bad.
if it was Norwegians you'd be all for it.
Are we, uh, pretending that the average Norwegian immigrant shits up the place as much as the average Indian immigrant?
so it is about Brown people. got it thanks. lol.
You’re the one who brought it up. Everyone before you said immigrants. You just assumed it was Juan Carlos and not Sven Karlssen picking berries.
>You’re the one who brought it up
>3rd world indios shitting
>Brown People Bad
boogeymen are people too.
Capitalizing brown tells everyone you’re a woke moron. No, you aren’t a person.
>hurrdurr
imagine thinking this was a valid point.
Pointing out that (You) are a woke moron who doesn’t even suffer under the misery of your own imported hordes
is always a valid point. Kys.
>hasnt the foggiest clue
>doesnt realize the capitalization was to trigger morons
>gets triggered
> moronation confirmed.
Thanks for playing!
>posts something moronic
>gets called a moron
>I was only pretending
>seething over a capitalized letter.
>confirms smooth brained moronation.
>continues losing at life.
You post this in every thread. You're one of those posters that I see, that is vaguely amusing the first time, but also kind of weird and cringey. And then, I see you again, and again, and I realize you're just weird.
They’re brown and destroying the job market, what’s not to hate
>capitalizing brown
kek
Indios are bad in huge numbers yes. Not him btw
yes, brown people who don't share our language, values, culture, or ability to assimilate are bad overall for a nation. Civnats are so incredibly wrong it's scary. almost as scary as the fact the only way to demonstrably show just how wrong and stupid they are, it'll be too late.
where do you live btw? what's the ethnic composition? you sound like one of those ivory tower types who is all about mass immigration because you loooove authentic street food, and you can't imagine white hands making a taco. or your so muttified you don't know how much better a homogenous, high-trust community is to your 'diverse' shithole.
>reeeeeeee I fear people different than me
Its mental midgets like you that always go postal in the end.
>where do you live btw?
In a highly homegnous community that doesnt have enough labor. Even fricking McDonalds is offering $25 an hour and cant find enough people to work.
Please take your assumptions and small mind and frick off.
Yeah because we really need more fry cooks and not tradespeople or engineers/doctors.
same deal in the trades. Plummers, construction contracters, mechanics....all cannot find enough people. Turning away business because they just dont have the resources. Unemloyment at historical lows and business' simply cannot find enough workers.
you just proved my point anon.
go move to the barrio and then you can have all the DELICIOUS TACOS AND DIVERSITY you want!!!!!
>claims he had a point
>doesnt realize he didnt
fricking morons. I am so tired of you goddmaned fricking morons.
does it need to be spelled out for mommy's special little man?
>want immigration
>craaaave authentic food
>need brown hands to prepare it
>doesn't have to live with the consequences
you are a child, a dumb, overly socialized little child. i hope to god you never are in a position of actual authority or consequence.
you naïve little child.
>>want immigration
authentic food
>>need brown hands to prepare it
't have to live with the consequences
Shut the frick up you stupid c**t. Literally Never said anyone these things. Its your stunted intellect and moral depravity that allows you to think blowing polTard dog whistles are actually a relevant point.
You are very stupid person who is trapped in dogma of a failed paradigm. I would say never have children but thats a given anyways lol.
the flak is always heaviest over the target anon, i'm exactly right, aren't i? you civnat shitbags are all so predictable -- you think you're taking a moral principled stance, but all you're doing is selling your country and community down the tubes for cheap labor and super mega authentic ethnic food.
give it some time, and as your 'homogenous' community descends into a shithole barrio you'll see the error of your ways. Or you'll move to idaho or montana and then push for the same policies that wrecked wherever you live now.
>i'm exactly right, aren't i?
No. You are never right. If you were not so fricking stupid you would have realized that by now. One day you might figure it out.
>gets btfod
>no u
okay kiddo, your ovaltine and snacks are ready.
>>gets btfod
lol. Are you always this delusional? And you wonder why people point and laugh at you...
Anon, you already admitted you live in a homogeneous community and don’t even have to deal with the third world hordes you love importing. No one cares what you think.
>hurrdurr
>cares enough to reply lol
You are the one REEEEEing about Brown people, Indios, Hordes and the third World. I just want enough workers to make the economy function. You get all twisted in your moronic narratives, exposing your weak intellect and moral depravity in the process and yet are too fricking stupid to realize just how anachronistic your fever dreams really are. morons like you just dont have the intellectual capacity to move on from caveman mentality.
>words words words
>no I NEED more brown people here for the economy!!!
>gets BTFO
>replies with meme
You PolTards are all so predictable.
>REEEEEEEE brown people bad
thats basically the gist of your world view. No wonder you are alone. I suggest staying away from grocery stores predominantly used by brown people.
>every brown country is shit
>every brown neighborhood filled with trash and crime
>brown people good
Lmao get a life.
>hurrdurrr brown people
>spews lies hoping nobody notices
At least you admit you are a morally depraved, intellectually stunted moron. Thanks for being honest!
>lies
You are a homosexual and I hope you get raped by a Black person.
>confirms he's morally bankrupt
thanks!
>Noooo he doesn't subscribe to my israeli slave morality
>thinks the only reason countries are on the list is because of the color of their skin.
More confirmation. Holy shit you are stupid.
>NOOOOO WHITE PEOPLE MAKE BROWNS KILL EACH OTHER.
What a brainlet. Its weird that anywhere you find brown people you find murder. What a cohencidence!
>i am sure its because the the color of their skin and not a myriad of other factors.
and you wonder why people tell you are a fricking moron. Keep up the good work lol
>purely socioeconomic factors
>DEM ECONOMIC FACTORS
TYRONE JUS NEEDED DEM PROGRAMS. HE WUZ A GUD BOI HE DINDU NUFFIN HOW HE SUPPOSED 2 GET PENCILS FO SCHOOL AND SHIEEEEET.
>seething cuz losing
>resorts to yelling nonsensical gibberish.
lol.
only gibberish because of that homogenous and high trust community you'd like to see spoiled for street tacos and diversity
you'll understand it in a few years, just need a few more of those socially conscious section 8 units to go up (hopefully next door to you)
>post memes
>thinks thats an argument
please continue!
>RACE IS JUST SKIN COLOR
Why do you deny evolution? Are you an anti-science schizo?
You’ve yet to provide literally any evidence that what is he saying is incorrect, or even address
You’re just crying about muh racism kek
>You’re just crying about muh racism
you seem to be the one crying about lol. Im just laughing at you...
It’s been damn near five hours and you still can’t come up with a way more brown people have improved America. Nice.
>racism is bad, okay?
>facts that disagree with me are racist too
>it's just bad, okay?
>and diversity is our greatest strength
>i don't know why, it just is? okay. god you chuds are dense
the mental gymnastics lefties need to employ in order to prop up their views are pretty impressive tbh.
>"C-c-correlation doesn't equal causation goys"
>Cannot find a single brown country, county, or even city where browns achieve intellectually to the level of their Caucasian and Asian peers
>Cannot find a single country, county, or even city where browns commit less crimes then Asian or Caucasian peers.
This must be the white man's fault.
>hurrdurrr
Why do you inevitably post this in every thread?
Because its an apt representation of mental accuity of the poster. Thats whats drooling idiots sound like.
In every thread? Anon...if everywhere you go it smells like shit, then you need to check your own shoes.
>irrelevant whining
>In every thread?
shut the frick up. I rarely post and certainly not in "every" thread. Surely, you are not so stupid as to think only one person on the internet uses that apt description?
Anon...if everywhere you go it smells like shit, then you need to check your own shoes.
>heh, I may have gotten raped by a bunch of brown people but at least I was never racist
What in the US has been improved by importing brown people?
Frick your economy.
>thinks posting a troony is the answer.
You will never be a woman but you trannies should really go outside.
My penis is extremely feminine.
it is ok for men to act feminine
murderous trannies are never the answer
You're wrong. Importing endless amount of workers from shit-tier countries is extremely shortsighted.
>I just want enough workers to make the economy function.
Why would you care more about some made up metric than your own life?
>some made up metric
>real life is made up
I cant find enough workers to staff my landscaping business. I am losing business, losing money because moronic zoomers dont want to work muchless work hard. It didnt use to be this way.
Have you tried offering them more money?
Of course he hasn’t, he is a delusional boomer who thinks inflation doesn’t exist.
w-who do you think occupies most senior paid positions within the forest service?
I pay $40 an hour for new hires and $50 for returning workers....and more if they return for multiple season. My longest standing employee makes about $75k mowing lawns and planting trees. Its a seasonal business so very transient. I really cant offer any more and hope to stay in business long.
>I will pack up and skip town to landscape for you if you can do $40/hour.
No you wont. quit lying.
No you don’t.
so where are you that you can pay so much for landscaping? are these workers 1099? how can you pay an landscaper 40 bux an hour when rates are at an average of 60 per hour for the customer. please share
i am intersted.
Give me a town and I'll see you at the Home Depot next Saturday.
How about you try paying them a fair wage that accounts for the catastrophic inflation and not the same wage you got paid in 1967
>How about you try paying them a fair wage
lol. $40 an hour isnt fair? Zoomers really are moronic.
JFC.
graduated from college in 2006 with no job prospects at all. Took a job at a gas station (graveyard) in Missouri, making 7.55 an hour. Had to crash on a friends couch for a few weeks while saving up for the deposit on an apartment and looking for a better job.
millennials are so fricked. not because of boomers or whatever boogeyman they like to blame their problems on; but the inordinate levels of entitlement and need to have everything handed to them on a platter, immediately. that is not how the world works, i don't know how they'll ever get their shit together without completely imploding the western world.
Desperation mainly.
A big part of it is that gen x/boomer parents instilled this idea that minimum wage work is shameful, and a ton of zoomers/millennials are college-educated.
Most of them are in degrees that aren't worth two shits, but now they're in thousands of dollars and debt and "did everything right" according to the lines they were fed as children, so they scoff at minimum wage work because it's for the people that "made bad choices". It's part their fault for not sucking it up and part their parents fault for instilling a shame for working anything less than a 100k job.
Damn that’s crazy you call them all mental midgets while you live in a literal echo chamber. Frick off lmao
God, if you love hispanics and Black folk so much go live with them.
It's funny, people used to say the exact same thing about Nordics immigrating.
Except Scandinavians are white and are builders of civilizations not destroyers of it. Nice try.
PS Stan Lee is was a israelite and this was just laying the groundwork for people to accept Jose.
>Stan Lee
>Superman
Clearly clueless; opinion disregarded.
oops sorry wrong israelite. Jerry ~~*Siegel*~~
>The christcuck shows his final form.
>He's unironically a p*gan!
Sorry I don't kiss Black person feet or rape children that excludes me from Christ cucking to israelitesus.
Rich coming from someone who'd rather pray to trees than to the Lord Almighty.
>Pagans are evil because they sacked homosexual christian settlements
>Christcucks are based because they destroyed ancient European traditions to replace it with israeli sand Black person worship
Christ cucks are hopeless. I would rather worship a tree than a israelite.
Donar's Oak (also Thor's Oak or, via interpretatio romana, Jove's Oak) was a sacred tree of the Germanic pagans located in an unclear location around what is now the region of Hesse, Germany. According to the 8th century Vita Bonifatii auctore Willibaldi, the Anglo-Saxon missionary Saint Boniface and his retinue cut down the tree earlier in the same century.
>Scandinavians aren't destroyers of civilization
Someone doesn't know history.
>Jose
Spaniards and Portuguese were spreading civilization and the light of Christianity while nords were trying to rape it away.
>There is no job an American "Won't do".
See: The next sentence, you mongoloid.
My last job was $39 an hour. I will pack up and skip town to landscape for you if you can do $40/hour.
>In a healthy economy, this wage is determined by employers offering more money for a job until all the needed labor slots are filled.
You are moronic. There is no such thing as some set of number of "needed labor slots." A marginal employee in some role is worth a certain amount of money and companies will pay that much or less to have someone doing that job. Wages will not become arbitrarily large to fill an exact predetermined number of housecleaners or strawberry pickers. Reducing immigration to buoy labor prices has the effect of fewer people being hired to these jobs and less work getting done, ie a deadweight loss.
Healthy markets with functioning price discovery as you mentioned before need to allow resources to be moved from areas where the price is lower to areas where it is higher. In the case of labor, this takes the form of immigration.
>muh economy
>muh gdp
Lmao frick off israelite.
What happened to healthy markets and the importance of price discovery?
If you want price discovery to be global, you need to accept you will likely be living in a global average economy, not an American average one. That means you can expect your labor to start trending toward $18k/yr in value, with the lifestyle 18k/yr provides.
right now a globalist is sporting a raging (circumcized) erection.
what it lacks in length and foreskin, it makes up in mohs value.
I am not the libtardarian crying about healthy markets.
again, you daft fricking c**t; humans are not interchangeable cogs.
economists look at the economy as a black box function: output is just some function of capital inputs and labor.
that's it. that is the sum total of their calculus; they completely abstract away any kind of social/cultural/racial issues in regards to labor.
they are completely wrong on this, and you are pants on head moronic for thinking they have anything relevant at all to say on immigration.
i might only have a bachelors in econ, but that was my takeaway.
The posts I replied to didn't make a social/racial/cultural argument, they made a stupid economic argument. These morons say they have economic concerns about immigration then change their minds and stop caring about economics when you btfo them. Then of course they go back to the same socialist-tier economic bullshit right after.
>gradually I began to hate them.
Also people choosing to move from one country to another is not a "controlled" economy nor is voluntary immigration a corporate handout. This is no more true than one American complaining that the government has screwed him over by "allowing" his boss to hire another American for cheaper instead.
>Finite number of workers for jobs
>infinite number of workers competing for jobs
>turd worlders will work for pennies
Frick off.
All I get from this is Brown People Bad REEEEEE. Seems really stunted intellectually.
>Ignores both posts explaining how wage suppression with immigrants works.
Well, someone here is intellectually stunted. That's true.
See:
And if they simply cannot sustain their business growing strawberries because they can't pay agreeable wages, they deserve to die as a business. That's how healthy markets trim fat.
>And if they simply cannot sustain their business growing strawberries because they can't pay agreeable wages
>can't pay agreeable wages
>agreeable
>market doesnt work on emotion
>doesnt understand basic supply and demand.
>no Strawberries for you!!
>Nooo my heckin corporations you can't let the market operate as intended bring in more brown people I want my strawberries reee
Pathetic.
>Market doesn't run on emotion
Not only do speculative markets literally run on emotion, if you can't hire any employees because you're not paying enough, what would you consider that? It's obviously supply and demand.
>Oh these stupid idiots not wanting to pick strawberries for minimum wage, if only they knew the market didn't run on emotion, then they'd do this job!
Lol, lmao.
>speculative markets literally run on emotion,
irrelevant. wage markets are not speculative
Illegals here will never slow down. Like ever. It will only slow down when Latin America has a high standard of living and low birth rate.
The answer to your problems is eugenics, the world needs to be fricking cleaned. All current genetic dead ends (browns and trashy whites) need to be sterilized and put on an island where they can die out. The current destruction that the excess population has had on the natural world is fricking scary. It will only get worse.
you are correct and if the money isn't spent now to correct the problems and deficiencies the eventual solutions are going to be way worse for users.
You're right. We can't ignore it. We need to reverse the population growth, and ought to start by killing every israelite we can get our hands on.
Stay out of my fricking woods you city slicking moron
Frick you OP. This is a bait post, here is your (you). Fricking homosexual bastard. If you are serious, then I sincerely hope you sprain your ankle or some shit
ok you dont like immigration, I get it, but how can fix up the trails
I'm tired of driving to something with a narrow muddy pullout instead of a nice paved parking lot.
You ever try doing a popular trail that has a scramble? Bottlenecks!
They probably need to pay more people to maintain them. I’m sure it isn’t a popular answer, but even a program that made people pay like 5 bucks a month for trail access (as in all trails in a state or something) could go a long way towards maintenance costs and weeding out undesirables.
>a program that made people pay like 5 bucks a month for trail access
they have annual passes for state parks and things like that in some states
but I think the solution is to a) increase the budget to hire younger flesh but also b) monitor spending to ensure they aren't just pocketing it and skipping the work
I don't think taxing trail users directly is the right answer to overuse. I think expanded parking and trail widths could also ease permitting requirements. They could literally build some fricking wooden or steel stairs on half dome @ yosemite if they wanted to so more ppl could do it.
>They could literally build some fricking wooden or steel stairs on half dome @ yosemite if they wanted to so more ppl could do it.
I hope this is bait.
Are you saying the ppl who made the fricking hoover dam can't build a sit of stairs so more ppl can do the hike per hour? Also anon said the better view is from across from half dome anyways.
I LOATHE restrictive permitting requirements - if you need a permit to do the hike the problem is trail and parking capacity
>can
Yes
>should
Doubt
>trail and capacity
What if the trail is fragile? Do you concede there is a point at which the trail experience becomes ruined with a certain level of people? If so, how do else do we throttle entrance? Or is a literal Disneyland line through a 4 mile trail good?
ok just clear that you ARE admitting it is in fact feasible
>doubt
WRONG
you could make wide ass stairs
>What if the trail is fragile?
what if almost every inch of American land has been logged and forest fire'd for hundreds of years. You can be careful, sure, but what you want is NO improvements whatsoever.
> Do you concede there is a point at which the trail experience becomes ruined with a certain level of people?
no because I think you can have redundancies - redundancies are key - if there are TWO main highways in or out of a city vs one - which situation is gonna be worse with traffic?
I just know to expect tons of people at popular tourist stuff and honestly it doesn't bother me so much unless they are loud. Depends where you are really as to how loud ppl are.
I don't think we should throttle entrance. I think we should add COMPETITION by building multiple scenic spots into an area. Overlooks and trails and parking are not THAT hard to build. They did it in the 1930s like crazy with the CCC and they just let it go to shit since then and it is sad.
>Or is a literal Disneyland line through a 4 mile trail good?
the whole point of trails is you can have multiple paths through and around areas to disperse people
Anon, I think you’re just talking past me. And if you don’t think trail overcrowding is an issue at all the discussion is pointless.
It's an issue but your point is the solution is just to do nothing and add burdensome permitting processes to popular areas. My point is you can build in OTHER PLACES TO GO and people will do it. Trails can be mazes of different things so people have lots of options. You can build new easy trails for grandma and add roadside overlooks with proper parking and picnic tables etc.
Give people lots of different things to do and they won't all be at the same place.
My area has loads of different trails. And yet all the wealthy homosexuals insist their multiple paved bike trails aren't enough and want ALL of the trails within 50 miles paved and cry about how it is an accessibility issue for them, because they're all fricking disabled in the head.
>want ALL of the trails within 50 miles paved
why is this a bad thing?
Not that anon, but the point is that most natural beauty spots should be something you work for, the point is to exclude people. The solution is not to increase capacity but to reduce the population that wants to use it. This can be done by directly reducing the population, or making it more strenuous, dangerous or more expensive. All of these are factors which deter people from doing things. If you want to talk about how overcrowding is bad, I am sure the area your major city was in was full of natural resources, rivers and beauty 500 years ago now go downtown without homeless druggies asking your for money.
Expanding trail corridor past singletrack is a bad thing. Sure some areas of the forest should be logged and exploited for resources but the wild areas should stay as wild as possible
>think wilderness areas
>but to reduce the population that wants to use it
that isn't going to work you are just creating a nightmare where rich ppl can buy access to trails and poor have to do a lottery or book the trail a year in advance
excluding ppl is not actually fixing the situation at all
i think the point anon was trying to make (and forgive me if i get this wrong) is that at its root access to nature is a very scarce good. In that the value of a wild area is inversely proportional to the number of people visiting it. by increasing access (largely to people who had no prior interest in it -- means by definition you'll be attracting people who don't really care about nature in the first place) serves to diminish the value of it.
there's always going to be hyper popular spots (yosemite, zion, parts of yellowstone, etc) -- fine, make those easy as frick to get to, it doesn't matter -- they're already basically lost. but the actual backcountry/wilderness areas should not cater to the masses; the status quo works just fine in that department.
I think you are exaggerating the scarcity because you want it all to yourself and that's realistically impossible. You are just letting them get away with shitty management and not doing anything and it makes me sad.
Wild area with 5 different well maintained trails, each with own parking areas, will be much better than one big parking area and everyone has to start at the same place.
>but the actual backcountry/wilderness areas should not cater to the masses
that's where I disagree - I think there's tons of disused old logging roads and abandoned trails that could be turned back into usable trails - I think exercise is really crucial and we need to encourage it to more people
Getting people to exercise is not the point of PrepHole. If that’s the goal, pay for treadmills. People should only be PrepHole on trails if they appreciate it because then they’re less likely to shit it up. Trying to incentivize further use of a trail by people who only see it as muh 3.7 miles walked today is a terrible idea.
what's with the 'need' to get people outdoors? let them make their own decision.
and i think the scarcity angle went over your head. of course there's tons of land, and tons of logging roads (hell, i live on one!) It's more to the point that being in the wilderness and being around people are mutually exclusive. 200 hikers on a 'wilderness' trail completely obliterate the wild aspect of it.
this, 100% -- much better put than my post.
I never said anything about a lottery system that would be horrible. Also my idea of making it more expensive would be like a fishing/hunting license $100 a year, fees go to maintaing the parks/trails or whatever else needs fixing.
Making physical activities more demanding and dangerous would keep out those who don't want to go very much. For making trails more difficult I would just put trailheads in farther away locations instead of making them 0.5 miles from the main view/destination. That and not spending as much on maintanence on the roads to get to the trailhead. Basically excluding those who are not fit or do not want to go very much. The goal for me is to encourage behavior known as "balking" where people decide to not do something due to some barrier to entry. Keeping people from entering the parking lot/area entirely. Inclusion of others in activities is cool and all but more people outdoors is the antithesis of keeping places natural
Are you rich? 100 dollars a year? Why not 1000 dollars per trail per day? Real solitude then.
US is almost half obese at this point. Exercise is VERY important.
It's not a need. They already are and they can either park on the road and piss off the landowners or you can build proper sized parking areas.
$100 a year is very reasonable for those who actually go outdoors, it is also about the same cost as an out of state fishing license. And much less than the gas to actually get there. Licenses to use natural resources are common for off-road use, hunting and fishing. Why not for outdoor access or trail access?
the whole point of the outdoors is to be affordable and healthy - if low income families are left out - that's not fulfilling the mission of public lands
if they need more money - the money must come from the state
>it is also about the same cost as an out of state fishing license.
traditionally pedestrian access in most areas has been less restricted and taxed than sportsman access and I don't think that should change
why the frick does everyone here want pay per use trails instead of building more trails and parking?
>why does everyone here want the tiniest bit of personal investment into keeping PrepHole enjoyable when we could just pave over every trail with cement and make ten thousand parking slots at your local trail?
>let's just charge money and not fix the problem and wait till it gets worse
People have already proposed solutions, you just don’t like them. You’ve already conceded that you don’t even believe trail overcrowding is an issue, so why should anyone take your suggestions to “increase access” as anything positive?
No, the whole point of outdoors isn't exactly to be healthy. If that was the only reason, people would go to their gym 10 minutes away to become healthy than drive a few hours to their nearest national park/forest/state park. Not the same guy you replied to.
>if they need more money - the money must come from the state
no.
The problem is that you think the purpose of the outdoors is to encheap and healthy. I think the outdoors should be isolated
Do you have literally any evidence that lack of parking at trailheads is what deters people from using them if they’re sincerely motivated? I’ve been to so many trails where parking just keeps backing up further along the road. People who want to use the trail use it. Parking isn’t an issue that stops people.
During Covid I went to a NP that closed one of their parking lots and added a few miles of walking down a paved road to start the actual trail. I did it because I wanted to be on the trail. I didn’t throw up my hands and go home because I had to walk a bit farther, which is what you apparently believe happens.
I'm saying we clearly need more/better parking lots for some popular trails. It's not about deterring people - it's about accommodating them. I think you and I view the function of public land differently. You want it to be a playground for the rich.
Most people won't hike extra miles to do a trail. Trails should be easily accessible and well maintained.
the rich?
how did you divine that from his post?
i know that's lefty_trash_talking_point_01, but c'mon man, it's not an argument with a universal adapter.
most people are not willing to pay 100 dollars a year to access a park and just would avoid it if that were the case
>that means it's working.
again anon, i don't think you understand the difference between a city park or whatever, where there's throngs of people going out for a walk. vs actual hiking trails, where the entire fricking point is to be able to go out in nature and not hear jamal's wireles speakers, or seeing copious amounts of litter.
the wilderness exists for its own sake, it doesn't take a city slicking do-gooder to try to optimize it so pooor oppressed POCS and whoever else can shit it all up -- that will unequivocally ruin it.
frick off with the social engineering
If you want to reduce litter - place more trash cans and ensure someone picks it up regularly - parks are not free to maintain and should be adequately funded for the population they serve
>he thinks lack of trash cans is what compels people to litter
Fricking delusional.
ok then you need to pay people to pick up trash - the issue is not blaming the people who do it - but fixing it
dude. just stop posting.
you're honestly expecting people on PrepHole to support increased access to parks while you simultaneously admit that people should not be held accountable for littering?
just how much of a flaming liberal are you anon?
I dont think you really CAN hold people accountable for littering. All you can do it clean it up. Do you want trailcams everywhere and more surveillance? Forest jannies on every trail?
It's like building toll lanes when you need to just outright expand the highway. It's a band aid and does nothing to fix what's causing the problem and it will only kick the can down the road.
People who litter should be executed. It would greatly desentivize littering.
Based
just pick up the shit and organize to pick up shit you see. there is far more trash hidden under a thin layer of dirt than you will ever be able to clean unless you start digging. Quite literally the trash will blow in from the sky if you think it is pristine.
Most people that I've seen litter are Chinese and Indian tourists groups. I worked as a trail guide at PR for a few summers and the rangers were completely sick of it. I would watch a tourist bus pull up to the one spot with a view and thirty Chinese tourists walk out and throw their trash on the ground, rangers basically followed them around picking up trash until they left and then another group took their place and so on for the entire day. Littering is a Chinese culture thing and no amount of trash cans can get them from ruining the globe.
Look up the journal "The Problem of Plastic Waste in China" if you want to learn more.
yes, by this logic we should replace all the parking spots at safeway with corrals for the shopping carts, right?
my grocery store got rid of the cuck carts and I miss them a lot and hate carrying a basket - it's kinda narrow in there and the cuck cart was the perfect size
frick you covid or whatever
To be fair, I think most Americans could cut down on some unnecessary costs in their lifestyle, fast food, candy bars, buying a new car every year, going to concerts, or even not using as much AC in their house which contributes to 50% roughly of your electric bill.
Yeah I have no idea where you got anything about money from my post dude. That shit is all free.
>widened
>trail
Pick one.
Let's fill in the grand canyon with concrete and make it a giant parking lot. That way more people can visit and it will be handicap accessible. This will help preserve the grand canyon too because more people will be able to see it.
Funny you say that, I went last year and I’m pretty sure you can park within .2 mi of the rim and take a power scooter the rest of the way.
You're talking about the south rim, right? Please tell me they didn't do that to the north rim
I know you are memeing but I do think they could pave a road down to the bottom of the canyon for disabled access.
I don't think adding a couple of extra parking spaces is really the end of the world. And you admit people just park on the road if they don't.
Disabled people can already easily access the bottom of the canyon. They just need to roll out to the ledge.
can't we talk about trail maintenance
honestly no, we're too busy bullying the leftist tourist who wandered in here from reddit by mistake.
we'll continue to do so until the jannies shut this shit-show down. 🙂
let's not tell the jannies and just organically redirect to on-topic conversation!
I mean do you consider wash-outs that are very dangerous walkable? It's a matter of degrees - not yes or no.
To be honest, there's a lot the government does. But a lot of run of the mill stuff really should be handled by local city and independent organizations
Volunteers, ultimately, have always been the most important factor in preserving our wilderness, and I hate giving the government yet one more thing to do ineffectually just to watch them frick it up.
but just saying "let volunteers do it" means nothing in the end
it won't get done, the trails will be abandoned except for the select few that are easiest to access, provide big views, a big waterfall, etc.
There are no "cities" near many national forests and "independent organizations" are usually private and want to a) charge money or b) just abandon it and let the animals have it (nature conservancy)
they need to actually commit to fixing up trails and resolving parking/property issues instead of just letting it all be
Wilderness is, in my mind, fricking moronic because it bans power tools to maintain the trails, ensuring they will be fricked and abandoned if they are not popular backpacking routes.
I love the lesser trails and I don't want to see them abandoned. Normies are fine with "muh appalachian" trail but I want weird nowhere alternative trails.
Here's a thought. How about you put out flyers, organize some volunteers, solicit donations, and do some work instead of relying on big daddy government to jerk you off every time something is difficult and mildly inconvenient.
You know you can be the volunteer right? It's not just some ethereal *them* or *the government*
You got two arms, two legs, a desire to see something done and hopefully half a brain. So YOU go do it. How about that?
Because that's incredibly ineffective. They are fricking paid to manage public lands and barely do it. I hope when boomers die this will get better.
Ah. So what you mean is *You* are incredibly ineffective. In fact, you're less effective than the federal government.
Astounding. I think that qualifies you for disability.
>I hope when boomers die it will get better
Dude if you think millenials are capable of doing it idk what to tell you lmao
>t. Born 1992
I do think they are capable. I think lots of people have the experience of hiking on public lands and thinking, wow this is a great area but access and parking are minimal and the trails themselves haven't been maintained well in years. This place could really be something with some tender love and care...
Can you walk on it? Trails maintenanced.
>seizing small parcels
no
Please have a nice day.
They should dynamite the parking lots at the summit of Mt. Washington. Close the road to recreational traffic and perhaps even shut down the train. Hiking up and being greeted by chinks, fatso landwhales and the smell of exhaust is an affront to god.
it's called public land because anyone can be there
Fatties aren't people.
what if they exercise and diet and are working hard to lose weight? If most of the population is overweight - outdoor facilities are essentially medical facilities for rehabilitation and on that basis alone low income folks should have access to them. A healthy populace is a productive populace.
We've been over this.
See
Treadmills suck cuz ur cooped up inside. People will enjoy exercising more if they do it outside.
The outdoors IS for exercise.
No. I don't care if you think treadmills suck. PrepHole is not for exercise. It is for PrepHole. You can use it for exercise, but it should never be modified just so more people can "exercise" on it when we are perfectly capable of giving away treadmills (giving people an ability to exercise) without shitting up trails. Really not my fricking problem if you don't like treadmills. Lose weight and hit the trail. Trail isn't made to accommodate lardasses.
Are you aware that nature trails are exempt from the ADA?
Just create more trails. Spread people out. Everyone's happy
My point is, for the most part, you don't have to. I think trail creation is great for short loops for families and ADA-compliant trails
no shit ADA is toothless mostly - doesn't mean there shouldn't be trails for all skill levels available
but back to my point, there's HUNDREDS if not more of abandoned logging roads/hiking trails that used to be traversable by pedestrians or vehicles and just need to be re-graded and fixed up to be made usable. Beyond just making these trails walkable, many of them have access issues wher portions of the trail abut private land so the real reason they stopped being used is because neighboring landowners wanted that way (and many of the trails don't lead to big views or anything that would attract a lot of visitors).
As far as I can tell the "peak" of hiking and backpacking seems to be 1950s-1980s and then after that a lot of trails fell out of use. But like, if you open a USGS topo map there's TONS of things marked as trails that are no longer officially maintained but COULD be once again if they really cared.
out is for exercise
Wow this obvious shitpost trolling outside of /b/ thread is still up ?
>we should tear down peoples' houses to build shopping mall parking lots in the wild
>well he said the word outside so it's not off-topic
RIP this board.
How do you hike if not park your car at the trailhead in a parking area? Many trails have very limited poorly maintained parking areas and could stand to be improved.
Sounds like the problem is overpopulation. Stop making hiking easily accessible for every moron who can't be bothered
I never had a problem parking at the start and hiking in
>wait these roads near repairing
>why not just kill everyone then nobody needs roads
>"wait these roads near repairing"
What a stupid response. The roads dont get repaired; way to show you havent driven to a park in the last two decades.
I've been to many places in state and national forests in the past few years and many are in desperate need of repairs.
It literally says in the guide to this board that discussing protectionism and land use is on topic.
And low effort posts and troll posts are against the site-wide rules.
There are no mods on this board.
People disagreeing with you is not automatically low effort or trolling.
Doubling down on your troll post isn't going to help you.
There are no mods on this board.
ok so um back to discussing improving trails, parking, and access...
So didn't this thread start out because some moron wantedmmore trails and parking lots so black people can litter and vandalize them more easily?
it's amazing to think that what you just mentioned there is basically the root cause behind the decline in western civilization
>how can we import more non-europeans and make it easier for them to frick our shit up?
I think we can talk about trails and parking without bringing unrelated racial issues into it.
Tell me you've never lived around shitskins and Black folk without telling me.
I just, can't we set racial politics aside to discuss land management?
He's from /misc/ his brain is warped and deranged. Unable to separate anything from the lens of Black folk and israelites.
It's just kinda hard to have an actual discussion.
>/pol/
Literally who?
>doesnt address subhuman behavior in videos
lol
>I think we can talk about trails and parking without bringing unrelated racial issues into it.
Sure, you can talk about it. But what difference is it going to make with the current demographics in America? There's a reason non-Whites flood White countries. They cannot make anything work in their own countries, so how are we going to expect them to build and maintain with something like land management?
You know they have hiking trails in non-white countries.
Ah, yes. The great trails of Brazil are just like the ones in Appalachia. I certainly won't be kidnapped, raped, and tortured by low IQ browns.
>You know they have hiking trails in non-white countries.
no anon, those are trails to cartel execution spots.
brainlet