Machine Gun Conversion Kits Legality

Apparently, certain machine gun conversion kits are illegal, according to the ATF. Not all of them, obviously, but any machine gun conversion kits are still difficult to find for sale online in the first place. For example, you can buy M16 conversion kits relatively easily online, and although they're pretty rare and pretty expensive when they show up for sale, you can buy P90 trigger packs and safety selectors, but you would need to modify either the trigger back or receiver in order to get the trigger pack installed to convert a PS90 into a proper P90. I decided to start this thread after doing a bit of research on KRISS Vector conversion. The ATF considers the conversion kits themselves to be machine guns. My question is this: is the machine gun conversion kit a registered machine gun itself? Could someone hypothetically get their hands on a conversion kit from a properly licensed SOT without a trace being left behind, assuming the SOT would be willing to sell the kit to someone who isn't properly licensed himself?

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Why must you glow so brightly it hurts my eyes.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I am literally just asking a legal question.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Americans police themselves. They talk about freedom and "frick the government", but at the same time they attack each other as "evil criminals" when using their first amendment rights. They honestly deserve becoming a hated minority in their own nations. Just a land of fat moronic and scared consumers counting their days till a heart attack. I remember around 9 or 10 years ago we would literally discuss making pipebombs and explosives on /k/ since it's not illegal to discuss. Modern nugays only think in memes because they're npcs so they'll call anything that sounds scary to their little brain a "fed", and I truly believe this was started by actual feds in the first place to get us to police ourselves.

        Back on topic, I had the exact same idea two days ago and looked up how to convert a civie semi-auto into a P90, but those are impossible to find for sale. You can legally buy some full auto trigger packs, but be careful if you think they're looking into you. The easiest guns I know that are convertible to full auto are the HK MP5s since you can still easily buy the full auto trigger pack/lower. It won't work on the modern SP5s, but it will work on the versions made by PTR and the turkroach versions.

        Converting an AR15 into full auto is very easy, so if you wanted a 9mm or 45acp smg... You could buy a high quality 9mm AR9 or variant, buy a pistol barrel, and throw in your FA trigger pack or modification. Guns like the ps90, vector, and other movie/vidyea game SMGs would be hard to convert to FA simply due to less easily accessible knowledge and parts on how to convert them.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >You can legally buy some full auto trigger packs
          The last time I saw one on gunbroker, it was selling for $4000. You could also get a Gen 1 or Gen 2 trigger pack the next time one of them shows up on. I'd recommend going ahead and buying one or two of these before the seller runs out, since this is all you'd need to install in a Gen 1 or Gen 2 trigger pack to make it full auto capable, after getting a select fire safety selector, of course.
          https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1028940349

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Apparently, certain machine gun conversion kits are illegal, according to the ATF
    They're ALL illegal, unless you're a Type 7 FFL with a class 3 SOT rider.
    >The ATF considers the conversion kits themselves to be machine guns.
    >is the machine gun conversion kit a registered machine gun itself
    Wow anon, it's almost like you answered your own question.
    >registered
    They're not registered, none of them are. The Vector wasn't even invented until 2 decades after the registry closed.
    >Could someone hypothetically get their hands on a conversion kit from a properly licensed SOT without a trace being left behind, assuming the SOT would be willing to sell the kit to someone who isn't properly licensed himself?
    Hypothetically, maybe? And that's a BIG maybe. It would still be illegal AF for all parties involved.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The only way such a thing could realistically happen would be if you made close friends with an SOT, and this SOT would also be the type of person who isn't afraid of breaking the law when it comes to victimless offenses.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The only way such a thing could realistically happen would be if you made close friends with an SOT, and this SOT would also be the type of person who isn't afraid of breaking the law when it comes to victimless offenses.

      Also, all machine guns are registered with the ATF. This is why I'm wondering about conversion kits, since if they're not actually serialized, they're not registered in any sort of database. If an SOT manufactures a machine gun, they have to get a serial number from the ATF, and it is recorded in one of their databases.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/jClATCU.gif

        >Apparently, certain machine gun conversion kits are illegal, according to the ATF
        They're ALL illegal, unless you're a Type 7 FFL with a class 3 SOT rider.
        >The ATF considers the conversion kits themselves to be machine guns.
        >is the machine gun conversion kit a registered machine gun itself
        Wow anon, it's almost like you answered your own question.
        >registered
        They're not registered, none of them are. The Vector wasn't even invented until 2 decades after the registry closed.
        >Could someone hypothetically get their hands on a conversion kit from a properly licensed SOT without a trace being left behind, assuming the SOT would be willing to sell the kit to someone who isn't properly licensed himself?
        Hypothetically, maybe? And that's a BIG maybe. It would still be illegal AF for all parties involved.

        If it is a drop in conversion kit they are registered with ATF and they are the machine gun. ex
        glock switches themselves are actual machine guns and registered and serialized. When attached to a regular glock you do not need to re-serialize the glock with ATF. If it is not a drop in solution (read:drilling/milling or permanent modification to the firearm is required to fit the part/s) you do not need to serialize them they and can be sold to non ffl/sots though many companies refuse to make these parts available for obvious reasons. ex. scar full auto bolts and lowers are legal because the upper has a denial bar and you would need to remove the bar from the upper or cut the bolt before it will drop in (if you cut the bolt to fit around the bar as an ffl the bolt would be your machine gun and if you cut the denial bar out your receiver the receiver would be the machine gun) you can get these on the secondhand market but the are rare and expensive.

        TLDR

        You very much misunderstand. Drop in conversions are themselves considered machine guns, automatic parts are legal and easily available, however you need to illegally modify a firearm for them to be installable and functional.

        is correct

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          So the way hobbyists do it is to buy a full auto bolt and remove the denial bar? That's literally all you'd have to do to get a select-fire scar? What about the trigger mechanism?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Sorry, I meant to say full auto lower meaning lower with select-fire markings and a full auto lpk installed consisting of a hammer trigger and some springs (picrel is owned by a non ffl/sot in /arg/). I think you could install these in a normal lower and be ok but I remember reading something that may suggest otherwise unless it was just someone trying to put the full auto lower or semi auto lower with full auto parts installed onto a scar with a semi auto bolt installed causing a problem. Now that I think about it I remember hearing the only difference in lowers is the selector marking S,1,A vs S,1 so disregard the previous sentence. IMO the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL hobbyist way would be to buy a full auto bolt (or mod a spare semi with a welder to trip the auto sear) and lower from someone in person with cash while using a fake identity/disguise and cut the bolt so it drops into you semi auto scar leaving no trace and keep the full auto parts hidden/away from your still semi auto scar when not in use. This should work for both the scar 16 and 17
            Here are some links to the full auto stuff
            https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=full+auto+scar&Sort=13
            https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1031089032
            https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1031089306
            https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1022641135
            https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1029062192
            You should read the descriptions of the listings before you get too excited because many sellers are turboBlack person wannabe atf jannies and will not sell to you without proof of ffl/sot. This is all hypothetical of course and I am not a lawyer and I would only advise you to take the legal route and get your ffl/sot.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Damn, that shit is expensive. I want to get my hands on a P90 first.
              >because many sellers are turboBlack person wannabe atf jannies and will not sell to you without proof of ffl/sot.
              There used to be a seller who would charge you $100 for a PLA 3D printed P90 front sear, but he would only sell to you if you provided an SOT. He doesn't seem to be on gunbroker any longer, fortunately. There's a guy selling proper P90 front sears on there now, and he doesn't require you to provide an SOT. Might want to get them before you won't be able to for at least a long time.
              https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1028940349

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >$100 for a PLA 3D printed P90 front sear
                israeliteing you out the ass tbh, not even worth $10.
                >$50 for a molded version now
                Still a hard sell but definitely more manageable. Printing it yourself (If you are an ffl/sot with the correct paperwork of course) is IMO the best option in this PURELY FICTIONAL THOUGHT EXPERIMENT as it does not leave much of a paper trail and is cheap way to get your full auto rocks off provided you already have a printer as well as it can be destroyed afterwards without causing you to feel you just wasted $50.
                https://odysee.com/@3D_Arms:0/DIY90_Hammer_Group_Files:3
                Do you only need the front sear, what about the auto sear? Or is this for early gen p90 trigger packs that basically have the auto sear already? I wonder if you could drop in aug pack/parts because FN just copied the aug trigger pack and some Asian country just surplus'd a bunch of aug kits with the full auto pack not too long ago, but like I said earlier I am not a lawyer and this is still purely hypothetical and I still would advise you to go through all legal routes and get your ffl/sot.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Do you only need the front sear, what about the auto sear?
                You need the front sear and the hammer, but if you have a Gen 1 or Gen 2 trigger pack, you only need the front sear. You don't need to worry about the auto sear. The auto sear is already included in the PS90, and I believe it's there for safety reasons.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Nice thanks for the answer. Coincidentally I was thinking about linking that video earlier.

                [...]
                >$50 for a molded version now
                Also, the entire P90 trigger pack is injection molded, so that shouldn't be an issue.

                I wasn't implying molded was an issue meant it as a strength compared to the $100 printed version. My only problem is for such a small piece $50 is still a lot, for the amount this guy probably sells it make sense because he needs to recoup on mold costs and limited runs because he doesn't buy in bulk.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >for the amount this guy probably sells it make sense because he needs to recoup on mold costs and limited runs because he doesn't buy in bulk.
                Maybe he just got his hands on some old P90 trigger pack parts stock, and he knows the front sear and safety selector are the most valuable pieces; although, his safety selectors look a bit cheaper than the ones I've seen, but they might still be OEM FN parts. You may be right, but I've never heard of anyone doing this. Those injection molding machines are pretty big and expensive, and he would've needed to carefully machine out multiple parts for the molds, and that would've taken quite a bit of CNC equipment.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Do you only need the front sear, what about the auto sear?
                You need the front sear and the hammer, but if you have a Gen 1 or Gen 2 trigger pack, you only need the front sear. You don't need to worry about the auto sear. The auto sear is already included in the PS90, and I believe it's there for safety reasons.

                >$50 for a molded version now
                Also, the entire P90 trigger pack is injection molded, so that shouldn't be an issue.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                just buy a first gen ps90 the triggerpack is the same as the p90 just with a restrictor stopping you from pulling it all the way back to full auto

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >just with a restrictor stopping you from pulling it all the way back to full auto
                I've read that all you need is to change the safety selector, get a Gen 1 or Gen 2 trigger pack, install a P90 front sear, and you're good to go, or change the safety selector, get a P90 trigger pack, and either modify the trigger pack or the receiver to fit the trigger pack. Am I missing something?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Also, all machine guns are registered with the ATF.

        Glock switch go bbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrr

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I forgot to say legal.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Last time i checked the military, national guard and some federal agencies are exempt from registration and tax requirements.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >they’re all illegal
      Entirely opinion. Many firearm parts kits include the full auto components. In the ATFs opinion in depends on how readily convertible your firearm is and whether or not you also possess the firearm that the conversion kit would affect but there is nothing written down in the NFA or GCA that actually supports this.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    if you buy the parts you need separately instead of all together as a "machine gun conversion kit" then it's not really an issue
    just buy a full auto fire control group for an AR-15, have it shipped to one address, and then buy the AR-15 third hole jig and have it shipped to another, and use your existing drill press and 1/8th inch drill bit

    that or buy a G3 parts kit with a full auto trigger pack (useless because it doesn't come with a complete gun) and modify a G3 or MP5 or other HK rifle knockoff to make it fit (I heard the turkish ones are better for this)

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Can you do this with Turkish MP5s? What are they called?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I think the importer for the turkish MP5s is changing right now but the last one is/was called the AP5
        I don't know if it works with that but you're the only one who can find out
        it'll definitely require some dremel work iirc

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Pretty sure they have a denial bar in the receiver and do not posses a FA BCG. Best bet for FA conversion on MP5 clones is one of the US made ones. If they’re labeled as “sear ready” then it requires minimal work.

        Only do this is you have you SOT of course. Highly illegal otherwise.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    A lot of parts kits from demilled military guns still have full-auto components in them.
    This is why new uzi full size receivers have a "blocking bar" in them that true full auto bolts can't slide past.
    It's also why Colt and other manufacturers pussy out and machine the fire control group pocket just short of allowing an auto sear to fit.
    Just find the technical documents detailing how these things go together, look up youtube videos showing the components interacting, and then get your SOT 🙂

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      World of Guns: Gun Disassembly is likely the best source for figuring out how a gun works.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        yeah, but spending all that money on dlc just to get the model you want is moronic
        I let others do it for me and upload a video onto youtube
        It seems to be a big view magnet so there are lots of them on the same model

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >I let others do it for me and upload a video onto youtube
          It's a fairly priced game, and they continuously add new models. You get way more detail when you actually buy the game to mess around with the models, and you can change the perspective in multiple different ways, and make certain parts disappear, along with X-ray and cutaway options.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You very much misunderstand. Drop in conversions are themselves considered machine guns, automatic parts are legal and easily available, however you need to illegally modify a firearm for them to be installable and functional.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    "M16 conversion kits relatively easily online, and although they're pretty rare" uhhhh brownells sells auto sears and all the parts for like $30 total.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >for the amount this guy probably sells it make sense because he needs to recoup on mold costs and limited runs because he doesn't buy in bulk.
    Maybe he just got his hands on some old P90 trigger pack parts stock, and he knows the front sear and safety selector are the most valuable pieces; although, his safety selectors look a bit cheaper than the ones I've seen, but they might still be OEM FN parts. You may be right, but I've never heard of anyone doing this. Those injection molding machines are pretty big and expensive, and he would've needed to carefully machine out multiple parts for the molds, and that would've taken quite a bit of CNC equipment.

    >Maybe he just got his hands on some old P90 trigger pack parts stock, and he knows the front sear and safety selector are the most valuable pieces; although, is safety selectors look a bit cheaper than the ones I've seen, but they might still be OEM FN parts.
    I just assumed they are not FN because of his wording "FN P90 Compatible Fire Selector" not "FN OEM Fire Selector" or something similar and the lack of colored markings compared to picrel. They could be factory blems or something like that but the wording is just to much of an indicator for me personally that these are not FN.
    >You may be right, but I've never heard of anyone doing this. Those injection molding machines are pretty big and expensive, and he would've needed to carefully machine out multiple parts for the molds, and that would've taken quite a bit of CNC equipment.
    I once again assumed here he just outsourced all of this to chinks (Americans if were lucky) and is doing nothing in house.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The parts are rarely "machine gun conversion kits". They're full-auto version specific parts. Things like the M16 trigger pack will not work in an off-the-shelf AR-15 without permanent modification to the firearm. You can own a full-auto M16 trigger pack and there's nothing wrong as long as you don't have the 3rd trigger pin drilled out and installed.

    You see the issue you're describing with guns like the Vector or FS2000 where the trigger is the only component necessary to make the gun shoot full-auto. This would give it the same function and regulation as a DIAS because that's essentially what it is.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >get paperwork filed with ATF
    >make a machinegun
    simple as

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm sorry filthy peasant, but the Hughes Act clearly states, "prolescum shalt not possess..."

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, underage, drop-in-autosears are considered Machine Guns
    No, you cannot legally purchase one unless it is either manufactured before 1986 and registered on the Machine Gun registry, or unless you are an SOT and it is registered with the ATF as a class-3 item. No, an SOT cannot sell to anyone who is not also an SOT or a law-enforcement officer

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I did not have drop-in autosears in mind when I thought of machine gun conversion kits.

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