and are about to order 1000 Patria 6x6 armored personnel carrier from Finland leaving domestic Rheinmetal to lick their fingers.
Based or are the commie liberals at it again?
Looks like German govt has zero Fuchs to give
and are about to order 1000 Patria 6x6 armored personnel carrier from Finland leaving domestic Rheinmetal to lick their fingers.
Based or are the commie liberals at it again?
>zero Fuchs to give
Probably a good idea since the war in Ukraine showed that the German defense industry (and Germany at large) aren't reliable and can't be trusted.
Cool story, zigger.
Threadly reminder that rethoric like is straight out of the zigger propaganda handbook and aimed at undermining NATO units.
Number 2 in billion $ sent and rank 10 in relation to GDP, ranking higher than the UK, France and USA.
566 million Euro pr. month to house Ukranian refugees, hmm, doesn't sound untrustworthy.
I think you misinterpreted what
was saying.
At least I took that as a comment on reliability of German weapons industry in a vacuum and as having nothing to do with Ukraine.
Oh you missed the "Germany at large" part?
lol
Moving goalposts, typical.
>Oh you missed the "Germany at large" part?
Oh that could be about reliance on Russian gas for Germany's energy needs.
And also "reliance" as in doing things the way Uncle Sam want things done.
Weird replies.
>Weird replies
You think so?
Elaborate?
NTA, but most of Europe actually doesn't really care that much about doing things "The way uncle sam wants things done", at least not since early 2022, because Uncle Sam's methodology is exactly what you want to emulate right now, if the times are any indication. That's the reactionary measure a lot of Anti-NATO third world propaganda sponges aren't taking into account right now; Western militaries have never been more unified in their understanding of what in the world needs to be taken down for the survival of what they protect. There is SO MUCH talk of BRICS dethroning the dollar or the West's collapse, but little actual signs of either prospect...incidentally, how is the Ruble doing right now? Or the Yuan, perhaps? Because both have been dropping with some level of consistency against the dollar, and that's WITH Saudi Arabia accepting the latter for oil.
Uncle Sam doesn't have security concerns like Mommy Europe has security concerns, and Uncle Sam doesn't just have Uncle Sam's geography to thank for that. Out of every country in the world, Uncle Sam probably has the least to worry about, atm, on the account that any military response to anything going forward isn't going to have a nation building project or "hearts and minds" to worry about; we're perfectly happy with engaging in another Desert Storm to show the c**ts of the world exactly why the west is not something that can be toppled, and you'll hate us...but in three or four generations, your kids are gonna love us. They'll have dreams of moving to America or Europe over the authoritarian shithole you've built for them, and we'll be happy to accept the brains we'll be draining from you, as usual.
Same as it ever was! Then again...doesn't have to be like that. You could always accept western doctrines, morality, and most practically, checks and balances, but lets face it...none of those, especially the latter, are ever going to happen. You're all just too much...like *YOU* to be like us...
God fricking damn it that's some Talmudic shit posting you just did there.
Be succinct because no one has the time or interest to decode this crap.
>Talmudic
Nothing israeli(?) about it, homie, and it's perfectly understandable for non-ESL, and even for plenty of ESL. It's just a simple fact; the West isn't going anywhere, and being that the west is where the future lies, we'll be happy to take your future from you. All you have to do is convince us it's necessary, and one day, you'll be the poverty stricken moron your western educated, motivated children will be sending money back home to.
Same.
As.
It.
Ever.
Was.
As long as Germany stop sucking Uncle Sam's dick, that's as good as it can get.
Uncle Sam have a civil war to worry about along a moronic Donald who intend to sell away everything that made the US a superpower for short gains.
Yes, give away your seats to the Chinese who are slowly turning every countries against you. Do make Europe unite against your interests.
You don't need other countries resources/market after all, right? Especially when just the risk of oil price rising is enough to make you turn pro-russia.
It's funny you talk of authoritarian shithole when America has such a poorer rating as a democracy. I sure wouldn't want to vote in your gerrymandered still slave-bound states with less and less vote centers where you can lose an election with popular majority.
Not even talking about the recent warrant-less surveillance laws.
>we're perfectly happy with engaging in another Desert Storm to show the c**ts of the world exactly why the west is not something that can be toppled
That's the one thing you wouldn't actually do: Waging another war outside the US if you are not directly concerned.
You barely manage to keep anti-communism fear against China to maybe defend Taiwan, the Donald still can't understand Ukraine isn't part of Russia, he will sure deal with China over "that China island".
Frick China btw, All democracies should be engaging in an economic war against both Russia & China.
Hasn’t orange man just paddled back and is now supporting aid for Ukraine as long as it is a loan?
Which technically still makes it a gib just because Ukraine will not be able to repay said loans. But figuring that one out requires proficiency in basic math, so the basic pleb will not understand it. Especially given how many loans the have already received from the Euros.
Orange man may roughly be as moronic as his prospective voters, but he at least understands that there are longstanding commitments and interests he cannot brush aside for short term popularity gains.
Remember when he ditched the accord with Iran?
The only reason he held many commitments was because he couldn't remove all the smart people during his ex-presidency.
Donald claims to "solve the Ukraine problem in a day" is bound to involve him "making a deal" that recognize Russian conquest or lift sanctions in exchange of a ceasefire at least during his candidacy.
I fear you, like his voters, grossly overestimate how much he care about democracy.
Look as his background, for him popularity is something that is manufactured and fact are dictated by whoever is in power.
You should pay more attention when he is said to idolize autocrat. He wish he had that level of power and likely think anyone who didn't vote for him "shouldn't count that much".
It’s not what he cares about or not. There are practical limitations to what he can do. After all would just be head of the executive branch and not god emperor.
And I'd say it not about what he can do in practice, it's about what he believe he can do and his attempt to do so.
But let's stop at this. This discussion as gone way too long.
This is a Patria thread
it looks so happy
>tfw all terrain armored vehicle
>tfw innamud
>feelsgoodman
Orange man always supported Ukraine. Even when they were fighting the first time around, he said he'd support Ukraine if they paid, which they refused.
The media portrayed it as Donald being pro-Russia when all he did was say "yeah, but you need to pay us back" which is exactly what has happened since 2020.
Yeah it's such a dictatorship your sister is sucking my dick to get over here.
>Moving goalposts, typical.
What? I'm just asking if that money is used to make more ammo (and send them to Ukraine, if they stay home it's pointless).
Germany has a bad habit of wanting to look strong but never take any politically hard decision.
Rheinmetall has been expanding production left and right since 2022 and continues to do so. FFS, they're the #2 ammo manufacturer in Europe now, only slightly edged out by BAE.
>in billion $ sent
Did Germany actually increase their ammo production like France or are they trying to wash away their shame with money again?
Still seething polack?
>take away significant parts of another country
>said country is still much wealthier than yours
Germs were responsible for Marx and the Soviet Union becoming a thing plus starting the two largest wars in human history so far. There is nothing to be proud of.
course there is
Germany - succesful host of two great world wars
Rest of the world - bunch of peace lovin hippies
WWI was started after Russia declared war on Austria.
Germany did not start WWI. It decided not to prevent it.
Go big or go home.
Sorry about communism though, we really shit the bed with that one.
yep, all poor shitholes now where the germans left. almost like african colonies after whitey left.
Biggest scandal out of German arms to Ukraine was Switzerland not approving arms transfers so once again it’s not Germans of the North to blame but those mountain dwelling frickers down in the Alps causing trouble.
It's the other way around, the MIC can do stuff, it's the government who are the homosexuals.
This we should buy Israeli stuff since it's simply better. And we should Voice this openly.
>a troony online asiatic shill appears
Rheinmetall is literally building a factory on ukrnaian soil.
Russia has yet to destroy factories in Ukraine that aren’t near occupied territory or central and western portions of the country. They haven’t even been able to deal the factories near the areas of operation, a couple days ago I bought candy that was made in Kharkiv, Ukraine. There is food being produced and exported from right next to fricking Belgorod.
Only in recent weeks have they been finally able to destroy a few power plants. Their massive drone and missile attacks only seem best to destroy apartment blocs.
But given how long it takes for factories to be built and get up and running, I would imagine that Rheinmetall and recent outsourcing will only be ready to deliver orders after the war has ended.
In 2022 iirc, Rheinmetall "announced plans" to open a wheeled armored vehicle depot & factory in West Ukraine, with a first production goal of new-made Fuchs.
Lord knows if they've even started breaking ground.
(Literally cuz you'd probably want extensive bunkers)
>Lord knows if they've even started breaking ground
Lots of broken ground to be found in Ukraine.
But realistically speaking I doubt the Ukrainians have the time to start to make vehicles from scratch in Ukraine at the moment.
The KTO Rosomaks they bought with EU money are made in Poland for example.
This was such a moronic idea
>ukraine needs vehicles now
>we should instead build a factory so that they can build them instead of just buying them
>we should also build this factory in Ukraine where the Russians will strike it
I get you meant it as a joke, but it's not as if Russia attacks military targets. Hell, if anything I'd feel safer near it than any civ commie block.
>German defense industry aren't reliable
All of the vehicles would be built in Germany under license.
>Rheinmetal
KNDS has the leopard ip which means even withhow much they hate the french they'll probably end up going with the MGCS anyway, not looking good rheinmetal bros...
>not looking good rheinmetal bros...
Looks pretty nice, tho.
They did get a deal to upgrade a hundred or so old stored Leopard 2A4 tanks to the A7 standard a while back so I'm sure they got their finances in order for some time now.
They got a ludicrous amount of deals over the last 2 years. Like, at this point they're expanding production left and right and they're still booked for years to come.
British and Australian Boxer factory going up
Hungarian Lynx factory goin full production
Research for Lynx Skyguard variant
Orders of Boxer Skyshield units
tons of upgrades and refurbs
RM is absolutely swamped
Orders for 123 heavy weapon carrier for german light infantry (australian Boxer CRV B2)
New autocannon ammo factory
New artillery ammo factory
Acquisition of spanish ammo factory
Potential order for 150 wheeled IFV for Germany (Its probably a Boxer version)
That’s cap since the A7 uses completely new hulls and turrets
all shells brother
If this war is still going by 2026 we are going to see some industrial grade real shit
why is the only country with Fuch 2 is Algeria
why do they have a 1000 of them with local production
They will mostly be built and assembled in Germany. Stop better choice than giving Rheinmetall yet another project when they are already swamped with them.
Germany is politically weak, trying to sell their own country as fast as possible.
Politicos leaving national gas reserves empty, then joining gasprom
Refusing military cooperation deals that favor them
Replacing domestic production of maritime patrol aircraft by US production
Soon to replace airfighter production by "meh, let's just buy more US fighter"
Let's never sell weapons to countries who might actually need them for defense
Let's tell Russia that they will absolutely get away with everything if they continue their invasion
Let's mock France because pointless rivalry is the only source of pride we still have
...etc
people forget half the country was a corrupted communist shithole
people also forget that post WW2 Germany doesn't have own foreign policy. it just gives money to whatever bullshit the anglos come up with.
Indeed. Germany is an occupied country that has clauses in it's constitution limiting the democratic rights of it's citizens imposed by foreign nations.
But that's another topic.
And which clauses would that be?
Well for example forming a political party on the lines of nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei is prohibited.
I can't think of a another nation in the world where certain type of political party is prohibited by a constitution.
Could you name the article in the constitution?
No.
But I believe it's these laws they are trying to use to band the AfD party currently.
You can’t because it doesn’t exist.
>You can’t because it doesn’t exist
So what are the laws they are using to ban the AfD then?
Parties may be banned if they are trying to replace the constitution with something that is not governed by democratic principles. I.E. a communist party was banned in the 1950s.
AfD is not getting banned and 'they' are not actively trying, because the hurdles to actually banning a political party are ridicolously high. Even if the party in its entirety makes the domestic watch list, thats far from sufficient to warrant a ban.
>make a claim
>provide no proof when pressed
>try to turn it around into asking the guy you are arguing with to prove it for you
I hate you larping pussies so much its unreal. Die.
I wasn't aware that the AfD was actively getting banned, can you point me to a source for the claim?
> no. But I believe
Believe on, Ronny. Also, tell your parents to hand over the Begrüßungsgeld
Ossis raus aus Deutschland
>what seems to be the issue
>I CANNOT BE A NAZI REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I swear you /misc/tards are like this every time. Do you even realize how ridiculous it makes you seem?
Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, for a start
Aren't communist parties banned in ex soviet nations? Also iirc reforming the fascist party is banned in Italy.
Lots of countries have prohibitions, either constitutional or legislative, on certain types of parties. But what's the articke of the constitution you're talking about again?
rope yourself reichsbürger
awwwwe boo hoo. frick off moron. germant shouldnt have fought a war against most of the developed world. then it wouldnt have been occupied for half a century. by the way turbohomosexual, if german people are so superior... how did the master race come to lose? surely they would he strong enough to win against anything right? and why didn't they come up with the nuke first?
have a nice day lmao
Friendly reminder they didnt come up with the nuke because of Mussolini - who caused Fermi to flee Italy
12.7x108 AP & API outperforms normal .50 AP - except SLAP - which was designed to make M113's similat firepower all the 14.5mm gunned Soviet APC's and armored cars and to give a fighting chance against BMP's for said M113-'s.
The M2 is a dated design and the NSV and Kord are half the weight
>samegayging Reichsbürger hands wrote these posts
Name the clause, behindi.
>Well for example forming a political party on the lines of nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei is prohibited.
>parties that are literally hostile to democracy are banned
Okay, and?
>parties that are literally hostile to democracy are banned
Are you saying that people should not democratically be allowed to vote for a non-democratic governance if they so choose?
Why are you against the will of the people???
Yes. Welcome to the concept of a defensive democracy.
>In German politics the concept exists under the term wehrhafte or streitbare Demokratie ("well-fortified" or "battlesome democracy") which implies that the federal government (Bundesregierung), the parliament (Bundestag and Bundesrat) and the judiciary are given extensive powers and duties to defend the liberal democratic basic order ("freiheitlich-demokratische Grundordnung") against those who want to abolish it. The idea behind the concept is the notion that even a majority rule of the people cannot be allowed to install a totalitarian or autocratic regime such as with the Enabling Act of 1933, thereby violating the principles of the German constitution, the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany.
>Why are you against the will of the people???
Because the principles of the democratic constitution are the underlying foundation of the nation and people and will not be infringed upon, evne by short-lived populistic demand. Germany's democracy will be defended, such is the duty of the government and every german citizen to themselves and future generations.
Its a little shitty if its the will of the people to not let the next generation of people have a will of the people...
Yeah but isn't it a bit shitty to condemn future generations into a fricking popularity roller coaster manipulated by interest groups just flailing around through history with no real goal in sight just fricking wishing/fighting for a better tomorrow that never comes?
>muh popularity rollercoaster
>muh interest groups
Infinitely preferrable to living in an authoritarian hellhole. Your entire argument smacks of an ignorant armchair authoritarian who has never experienced life under tyranny. You're the exact reason not only why the concept of a defensive democracy exists, but why it MUST exist.
The Romans loved Caesar.
Most of the rule in Europe has been modeled after the Roman Empire.
In the eyes of history the current "liberal democracies" are just a fad.
Are you sure that it is I who is the ignorant one here?s
With the advancements in robotics and AI, the vast majority of people will lose any form of economic power in the coming decades. They will be replaceable by technology, and their existence will become redundant for the state. I wonder what the government forms will look like in 100 years, once every important function a human could do can be carried out by a robot or AI model instead.
I haven't got a clue fren.
I've been thinking about the same thing.
It will be an elaborate hamster cage,
A human zoo.
Elaborate in the sense of preserving people's dignity to a degree.
The proliferation of weapons or diy weaponizable setups will be very important due to our eventual redundancy.
>100 years
You really think we'll have enough fossil fuels left to sustain our current civilizational complexity? What's gonna turn around the stagnation and decline we're enjoying?
>fossil fuels
Not a problem.
The factor that keeps fossil fuels relevant is simply the price.
Oil is cheap.
Nuclear would be cheaper but because of bureaucracy (not for a bad reason) it's more expensive at the moment to set up.
Also not all nuclear power options are equal.
The current gen nuclear reactors are based on technology to support nuclear weapons development and the "red tape" was fast forwarded to make them happen.
Now we need more red tape to make other kinds of nuclear power to happen.
But red tape is veeeeeeeery expensive in the times of no cold war.
But in any case we are in no danger of running out of energy.
It's just that $$$$ and political will haven't aligned yet.
>But in any case we are in no danger of running out of energy.
We won't run out of energy no, but the energy needed to extract the oil will at some point be too much to reliably sustain the current globalistic complexity of our civilization. It will simply be too expensive to get oil out of the ground to justify all this global trade and cargo, but our civilization is pretty much entirely built on top of it.
Why would you want to extract the oil?
The factor that makes oil important to us right now is simply economic.
Right now extracting oil is cheap.
But it's not the only option we have.
We can replace oil with other options for fuel, rubber, plastics or anything else.
Right now oil is just readily available resource that it ready to be extracted by technology that's already been developed.
Shit if if economy demands then it's molten salt reactors by next week.
>The factor that makes oil important to us right now is simply economic.
It's not. Oil is quite literally the simple best energy storage we have. It's what enables any kind of cargo, any urban living, any global trade and connection. We have nothing at all to replace the ridiculous ease at which oil can store energy and thus transport it and use in vehicles.
>Right now extracting oil is cheap.
It's less than a quarter of what it was a century ago. How much do you think it's going to be a century from now? It's not a very good-looking trend if you consider we're using more of it now than ever before. More each year than the last.
>Shit if if economy demands then it's molten salt reactors by next week.
A reactor on every cargo ship? On every aircraft? On every truck and civilian car? The moment we stop having cheap oil to sustain cargo, we lose the cities and everyone except a small elite has to move out into the country to practice sustenance farming or face unacceptable cost of living. +90% of the food is transported with trucks.
But I guess that's the sort of robotic AI future that's being predicted in
You can replace oil in shipping with Uranium.
You can make hydrocarbon fuels from seawater with fission energy.
The US navy does that right NOW.
With nuclear energy you can make gasoline for your pickup truck, jet liner or stove.
Uranium is not the only source for nuclear energy either.
There's of course the ever present 20 years away fusion energy but there's also breeder reactors and thorium reactors.
And on top of all that he have naturally occurring hydrogen.
The so called "white hydrogen".
Look that one up! It's interesting stuff.
What cost does all that have? How much energy do you get in return for energy input in the extraction? Is it more than enough to sustain our complexity?
How does building, maintaining and decommissioning a nuclear reactor, having the crew required to operate it, getting uranium for it, transporting that uranium (with uranium fuel?) compare to drilling a funny hole into the ground and having modern civilization pour out of it?
Most sailors at this point in time are cheap third worlders, do you envision a future where highly educated first world nuke technicians take to the seas, or are the cargo vessels entirely driven and operated by AI and robotics? How expensive is that in comparison?
>The so called "white hydrogen".
Far as I can tell, that's less energy efficient than wind and solar.
>How much energy do you get in return for energy input in the extraction
Oh it's always going to be negative.
You always have to spend more energy to turn something to usable energy.
The factor that one has to be concerned is economic.
Like right now if you want to use trees as a source for energy one has to take in account how many billions of tons of hydrogen the sun burns every day to make the trees grow.
The energy from the sun is "free" so the energy from the trees is "cheap".
In any case were are playing the musical chairs of entropy.
Lucky for us a gram of matter has a frick ton of usable energy if we just find a way to extract it.
>You always have to spend more energy to turn something to usable energy.
Yes, but that's the thing about oil and all economically viable energy "sources" (storages); they're already usable energy and we just need to get our hands on it.
You used to get about a hundred times more energy out of oil than you put into it extracting it. Modern estimates are far less positive on the other hand, and they're only going down as the low fruit gets picked.
>In any case were are playing the musical chairs of entropy.
Yes, and the exergy is going down down down. At some point the system of our civilization is going to run into a point where it's no longer capable of self-sustenance with the amount of exergy available. And that's bound to be in relation to oil, because it's the supreme source (storage) of energy.
>And that's bound to be in relation to oil, because it's the supreme source (storage) of energy
But it's not.
The energy potential of oil is bound to chemical bods of atoms and it's nothing compared to the power that resides in the nucleus of atoms.
The ultimate power source in the universe is the pure antimatter-matter reaction.
A tea spoon of anti-matter reacting with matter would dwarf the entire nuclear weapons stockpile of earth.
The chemical energy in oil would not be even a tear drop in the corner of the eye of god.
>Yes, and the exergy is going down down down. At some point the system of our civilization is going to run into a point where it's no longer capable of self-sustenance with the amount of exergy available.
Both solar and wind solve energy supply overnight if we had better storage options. A breakthrough in batteries would make even nuclear largely pointless compared to solar arrays.
So far there wasn’t much money in battery research but electric cars changed that. Hopefully we get something genuinely groundbreaking out of it rather than ~50% lower cost as has been achieved so far.
>wishing on batteries
Lead-acid went 100 years without an alternative
Ni-Cad 50
NiMh 20
Lithium is going on 35 - and the cost vs storage curve has plateaued far higher than BEV shills were aiming for.
The only thing that's going to take us to that level anytime soon is nuclear batteries - ie the shit they put in space probes and soviet lighthouses that ends up being extremely radioactive when Ivan cracks one open.
A design that limits radioactivity and/or is able to use a safer isotope than thorium or radium effectively is the only solution.
We've already explored every heavy metal electrolyte catalyst and it isn't getting any better than LiPo so we might as well go back to nuclear engineering a fix
>Both solar and wind solve energy supply overnight if we had better storage options.
No they do not because they are low density intermittent energy sources.
And at least here there is a problem of every farmer leasing their fields with 100 year contracts to solar power firms because the rent and dividends pay way more than growing food. And that's a big fricking problem in the future.
Vertical aeroponic farming is the future anyway.
>bullshit that requires yuge capital investment and a team to oversee robots
>vs a bunch of shit eating illegal thirdies working 70 hours a week while you charge half their salary for rent in place that hong kong chinks would find inhumane
Doubt
Spanish or Italian?
Buildings are expensive (~$10,000,000/acre low deadload floor space) and farms are cheap (~$10,000/cultivatable acre), it wont happen without some serious changes to economic conditions.
As much as nuclear is the future, you don't seem to understand physics.
That or your believe we will invent a matter convertor.
The only fuel you can make from electricity economically is hydrogen. That's a change from oil.
>And on top of all that he have naturally occurring hydrogen.
>The so called "white hydrogen"
"white hydrogen" is literally a byproduct from refining oil or rare natural source, you can't increase production
"green hydrogen" from electrolysis require huge amount of electricity, the only one we can scale up.
And just like oil fuel you lose >60% of the energy during conversion.
(I do consider nuclear power as green, solar energy come from a nuclear reaction after all)
>The ultimate power source in the universe is the pure antimatter-matter reaction.
And a quick reminded that we have never found naturally occurring anti-matter. You'd need to produce it and we sure won't have a good conversion.
So it is at best a "storage" and probably only useful for SF-level technologies.
On a side note: I think we are drifting out of topic.
>"white hydrogen" is literally a byproduct from refining oil or rare natural source, you can't increase production
Fricked up:
Grey hydrogen come as byproduct
White hydrogen is just plain rare natural source
>stagnation and decline
What?
The funniest part of this infographic is when you learn that Koreans just bought a bunch of Japanese and German robots while claiming it makes them advanced.
>The funniest part of this infographic is when you learn that Koreans just bought a bunch of Japanese and German robots while claiming it makes them advanced.
I mean it's so good that now the JSDF is now using Ghost Robotics products.
Japs are also now testing the new Mission Master UGV. RM just send them some over for evaluation
The RM robots all look ugly as sin tbh.
Muss nicht schmegge muss wirke
Didn't the nips just buy a bunch of AMVs? How many different types of vehicle do they need?
Because it ignores the ontological purpose of government, which is to ensure that everyone's freedoms are as uninfringed as possible
>to ensure that everyone's freedoms are as uninfringed as possible
Very presumptuous of you.
How about you argue how governance shouldn't ensure the benefit of the whole tribe over the benefit of the individual?
Oh shit that sound like we've been arguing over for a millenia with no real answer...
sheeeeeit....
Because to argue that government is meant to enrich it's people first presumes that governed is the natural state of men, when it's not
>presumes that governed is the natural state of men,
Even the most basic modern human society on record has a function of government.
Be it shamanic or tribal elders.
>Most of the rule in Europe has been modeled after the Roman Empire.
LMAO. No.
>what is the Napoleonic Code Civile
Not modeled after the Roman Empire, all the obsession about period thinkers and propagandists about it nonwithstanding.
Modenr european democracies have about as much in common with the Roman Empire as the US has with the freakin' native confederations.
It was made as an alternative to roman law. Literally - for a long time practically all codified law was based on either roman empire leavings or napoleonic code civil or however it’s spelled in english - other systems existed but were almost entirely local and largely irrelevant on a state level
>Are you sure that it is I who is the ignorant one here?s
You are correct. Democracies are very rare in history because their inherent shortcomings make them fail pretty fast. A democracy is fundamentally a way to separate power and responsibility apart, which quickly leads to massive corruption in the top levels of society. You can see this at all levels in a democratic society, even at the bottom, the plebs that vote for open borders are not the plebs that live next to immigrants, which menas that they exercize power without responsibility. Similiary, the plebs who vote for green power are not the plebs that live next to the wind mills.
>muh massive corruption
LMAO, democracies are if at all far LESS prone to corruption than authoritarian regimes.
>muh not all other voters agree with me
That's not corruption, nor is it a bug. It's a feature.
>which menas that they exercize power without responsibility
...no. No it doesn't. At all.
Democracies that seriously fight back against corruption can successfully overcome it.
Autocracies that seriously fight back against corruption can successfully overcome it.
Unfortunately, you would be hard pressed to point out either of such examples.
>Autocracies that seriously fight back against corruption
No such thing. Corruption at the highest levels is a feature of autocracy, not a bug.
That's a vastly better option than just giving permanent power to some of the worst people in your country (politicians).
By forcing them through elections and popularity contests, they at least have to appeal to the voters, regardless of if they give a flying frick about them or not. The moment the political leadership are free to do as they see fit without having to rely on popularity to gain power, they start turning people into flesh cubes and executing wrongthinkers.
The populace is moody. They will vote one thing and change their mind ten years later when the brits and anglos are firebombing dresden. You have to make your institutions resistant to that moodiness.
The question is would you like to have those institutions visible & accountable for the public or hidden behind bureaucracy and media and idea of "fair elections"?
while I agree you need transparency and accountability to a different branch than yours - you cannot make an institution both robust and accountable to "the public".
that just turns you into an ochlocracy.
>hidden behind bureaucracy
So not hidden at all to anyone willing to spend a minimal effort researching thigns udner mdoenr western transparency laws.
>and media
LMAO. Can you get any more ass-backwards than this? A free media is the #1 tool ensuring transparency and accountability in governance.
>idea of "fair elections"
Nice quote marks, homosexual. Spoken like a true subhuman thirdie bootlicker, lusting for daddy dictator's utterly non-transparent and unaccountable boot on your neck.
>t. satan
Democracy is a greco-satanic invention and the world must put me in charge to prevent it's evils.
>parties that are literally hostile to democracy are banned
Except for the commie ones of course.
They banned the Communist Party of Germany in 56. The others are totaly fine. SPD is social democrats. Greens are "just" leftist authorian eco fascists and the Linke is just the successor of the former communistic rulers of eastern germany. Nothing to see...
>>Well for example forming a political party on the lines of nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei is prohibited.
that are literally hostile to democracy are banned
The Germans voted away democracy in 1933 because it didnt work due to massive corruption issues.
>due to massive corruption issues
More like due to the military and monarchists collectively blaming the republic for everything that went wrong since 1918, with the commies and nazis both gleefully taking advantage of the radicalisation.
And yeah, the lesson learned is that a democracy must be defended constitutionally agaisnt those who would see it abolished.
why does democracy need to be protected
the west has been completely ruined by "democratic values"
>the west has been completely ruined by "democratic values"
Demcoratic values are what made and kept the west the dominant global power militarily, politically and economically. Seethe more about it, thirdie bootlicker.
>parotting propaganda
Lol. Lmao.
Calling the cold, ahrd, rpoven historical truth "propaganda" does nothing to challenge it, bootlicker.
It's a good vehicle, and Finns allow local production.
Is it their final decision?
They have been umming and erring on this for a while now. I recall them even calling the deal off once last week.
>Is it their final decision?
No but currently the wind seems to blow that way.
Fairly strong winds.
But I did use the phrase "looks like" in the OP to signify this.
this thing looks straight out of the 60s. i bet a .50 would shred that.
>.50 would shred that
Well actually it's based on Sisu Pasi which was 80's design that took some design ques from Fuchs mentioned in the OP but still mostly based on a Finnish military truck.
It just so happens that I know a guy who was in a UN mission and they had to get rid of some old ammo and he fired NSV at an old broken Pasi Sisu from the side and he told me that the first salvo had only few penetrations.
The second one had much more penetrations as the metal fatigued.
NSV has much more punch than the 50. cal so the old Pasi is surprisingly resilient.
And this model is based on the old and has the advantage of material science progress.
12.7mm = 1/2 inch = .50 cal
>old Pasi
Yeah, people need to remember that it's not a frontline assault vehicle that can take punishment but a cheap amphibious APC instead. You can buy a bunch at discount price when compared to other vehicles.
It protects people from shrapnel and surprisingly, mines, but it's not going to shrug off autocannon fire or larger MG calibers.
The AMV can be up-armored though, but that's going to take away the amphibious capability. Overall they're great vehicles but should not be compared to other vehicles with different design specifications.
I think the general idea is that they're very well suited for militaries where you can say a phrase like "combined arms" and not receive a glassy-eyed stare in reply as if you'd started talking in some esoteric dialect of aramaic.
12.7x108 has about equal or alittle less energy than .50bmg, depending on the load. Bmg goes noticably faster
Finland donated several to Ukraine and there are few videos where these things are shown to continue functioning even after hitting a mine. There is also a video where some Ukrainian explains that third mine was too much and it got disabled.
Although as a Finnish vehicle it has been designed to withstand Russian mines. Everything Finland produces is designed to be able to handle Russian crap.
Fuchs 2 was too expensive iirc because only the Germans would'Ve had them then. Patria is getting mass produced for several countries and is already in service. Saves a lot of costs and certificates
I keep getting confused by the subtle license differences between Patria Sisu, Piranha, Stryker... and AMV?
Bonus scope creep headache:
And what's different between them and VABs, Rosomak, LAV-25?
Patria Sisu was OG Fin 6x6 APC, the AMV is its successor
Rosomak is a Polish license built Patria AMV
the Mowag Piranha is a Swiss XxX (there 6, 8 and 10 wheel variants) APC
the LAV-25 is based on a licensed build Canadian LAV-I, which is based on the Piranha.
the Stryker is based on the Canadian LAV-III, which is the successor of the duh, LAV-II and LAV-I.
VAB is French
Cool thanks.
I may make a tree diagram of this then.
also I just noticed a typo, LAV-25 is based on the II not the I.
Well there's also the typo of "Piranha" but shit happens right.
>Patria Sisu was OG Fin 6x6 APC, the AMV is its successor
afaik Patria had nothing to do with the Pasi, it was made by Sisu. The new patria pasi and AMV are supposed to serve together in different roles.
Oh yeah HERE WE GO now
My confusion is back in full resurgence 🙂
My wikipedia understanding is that the company Sisu made the OG 6x6, Pasi is just the nickname soldiers gave it which stuck. Then a different company Patria absorbed part of Sisu and they were tasked with making a succesor to replace Pasi. Patria came up with the AMV which is a new design meant to be a family of 6x6, 8x8, and 10x10 vehicles. Only the 8x8 was built. While the AMV is a successor to the Pasi, it is in some sense not descended from it. Later, AMV proved too expensive to replace all the Pasi so Patria were tasked to make something cheaper, a second succesor to the Pasi. The new Patria 6x6 imitates and looks like the OG Pasi but its DNA/components come from the AMV project. Its arguably descended from both.
Super helpful.
May you return and see my thanks.
>cries in Pandur
Thanks I had heard that name like once or twice in my life before you posted that.
And the Japanese and Turkish multiwheel apc's could also get copypastad into the margins.
Probably something South African and that one from Brazil or Colombia, forgetting....
All those aren't really part of this tree probably.
design a better vehicle rheinmetal fricking shits :^)
t. finn
They did
Like yesterday? because I haven't heard of it so far hahaha
I think he means that Rheinmetall designed a new version of the original Fuchs that is currently being offered to the Bundeswehr.
Why not more Boxer APC? Is it for lower intensity troops? Does it only replace Fuchs or also stuff like Dingo?
the Patria X-300 will only replace the Fuchs, as the 6x6 troop carrier.
The Dingo is an MRAP, so not replacing it.
Boxer chassis alone weighs more than max capacity patria. Maybe they have different use cases? Just my guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_Pasi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_6%C3%976
Yeah the new 6x6 is based on AMV and is designed to replace the old pasi.
The Patria is cheaper and will be used for troops that don't need Boxer protection levels or that need amphibious capability
Boxer is an armoured fighting vehicle, designed to perform direct combat roles similar to an infantry fighting vehicle like Marder, Puma or Bradley. They just put it on wheels for better long distance road endurance.
Fuchs and Patria are armored personnel carriers. That means they are vehicles that are not meant to go into combat, but which can survive being close to the front line for a while before getting the frick out of there again.
IFVs are required to survive a direct hit and continue operating, while APCs merely need to protect the cargo from shrapnell or small arms fire.
Different purpose, different armor, different weight.
Boxer is primarily used as APC by germans. Its only armed with .50 cal or GMG. They are only now getting a heavy weapons carrier boxer with autocannon. And are looking for a wheeled IFV, which is probably going to be the Boxer.
Maybe it has something to do with Rheinmetall being stocked up on orders into the 2030s and all the new factories they are building/purchasing across europe are geared at full capacity towards helping Ukraine at the moment. Their stock price increased over 400% since the start of the war
This doesn't make sense. They already all versions of the Boxer. IFV, transport, medical, artillery... What's the point of getting the Arma 3 vehicle?
>Boxer $$$$$
>Fuchs $$$
>Patria $$
Boxer is too heavy to swim
You're thinking of the Patria AMV which is different from the 6x6.
The boxer is great for frontline troops. It’s way to expensive and frankly overkill for most support troops. Those support troops still need vehicles that can operate in NBC environments and are off road capable.
$75 bln this year plus some funny accounting shenanigans regarding reimbursement for equipment donated to Ukraine. Very memey indeed.
Let's take this moment to appreciate how a tread about Germany possibly buying one thousand armored personnel carriers has developed into a conversation about what's the proper mode of governance for humanity.
You can never have a serious discussion about modern german military stuff here. Yes modern german military is a meme considering its budget but people cant ignore that and just focus on the tech and weapons.
>wheels
Ukraine war have shown tracks are king. Why not buy 1000 AMPVs?
Central europe has very different soil.
East Europe is where all the fighting will take place (probably)
>tracks are king
M1A2 Abrams.
Considered by many to be the very best tank in the world.
Hits a mine. Loses a track. Tries to move. Get's stuck. Get's hit by a drone. Crew abandons the tank. Another drone sets the tank on fire.
Tanks is lost.
Meanwhile a cheap APC with six wheels runs into a mine.
"Oh shit! Let's use our remaining five wheels to get the frick out of here!"
A shameful retreat happens...
Finns make some damn good APCs, Japan and some other countries agree.
Goos bit of kit, i hope UK buys some. They seem like a decent rear line vehicle that frees up the Boxers.
>They seem like a decent rear line vehicle that frees up the Boxers
That's basically what they are.
Cheap current battlefield taxis.
Simple as.
Threads about Germany are always weird.
This is a political order. Keeping the Fins on their good side and trading them other weapons.
The Patria is both cheaper and faster to deliver because Rheinmetall are busy with the 980 vehicle order from Algeria
The Pandur Evolution was always the outside bet
https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-ausland/patria-6x6-wird-neuer-transportpanzer-der-bundeswehr-87829202.bild.html
The vehicles will be built at FFG and DSL in Germany
In addition it's not like Rheinmetall are going through a tough stretch, they're gobbling up orders left and right at the moment
Ah FFG, they recently expanded their operation again iirc.
They somehow dodged the pedagogic beatings behind the gymnasium for being edgy fricktards in middle school.
They are asking them to increase military spending because of the conflict. They are literally asking Germany to raise an army and march into Poland with tanks, is this a wise decision? Poland is the supply point to the proxy much like Pakistan to Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Conscription allows for the rapid raising of forces, but Germany has American nuclear missiles to ward the region from invasion. China, similarly, is a nuclear threat if confronted directly by a nuclear power, hence all these proxy wars.
Ukraine was equipped with nuclear missiles up until the 90s when the USSR collapsed. Three members of NATO are equipped with nuclear arms.
Well, poles are asking for it
The german military is vastly smaller than 30 years ago. And last i checked its the poles who are buying shitloads of military hardware and are saying they want to become the largest land power in europe. And on paper they will, if they buy all that shit, just without nukes.
Why is every thread about german equipment full of subhumans who keep seething about germany? That inferiority complex really kicks hard.
It always brings out the natsoc larp crowd of moron NEETs, you know, prime resettlement material.
Also Germany just announced another Patriot battery for Ukraine.
>finally buying Boxers with 30mm turret
>finally buying Boxers with Skyranger turret
>likely soon ordering Boxers with RCH 155 artillery module
>likely soon ordering hundreds of Fuchs replacements
not fast enough, but I like where things are going
>Skyranger turret
Why aren't all autocannon equipped vehicles designed from the ground up to take on the air threat? Why make it a separate rare model when every single km of the frontline is under constant threat of small bombs from the sky?
AA turrets have integrated radar...
Yeah and? integrate radar into all turrets. Make it cheap, sell it to all your competitors, manufacture 10 000 pcs a year, sell it to everyone.
There is absolutely no other way to deal with the drone menace.
Here, I have a solution.
glorious finnish engineering
every thread about Germoney is either met by russhits and their ilk or poolak or korean (same mental health issues towards their betters)
Are the rumors of Ukraine getting a modernized variant of the 8x8 uparmored Fuchs of late Cold War vintage true? With modern remote turret?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-08/germany-to-order-ships-armored-vehicles-worth-up-to-7-billion
According to Bloomberg, they’ve chosen the Fuchs Evo
guys
Fuchs is nice, but I'd rather have a Wiesel or a Fennek.
>tfw looked up price of a Kettenkrad, because its in the same vein of a Wiesel (small, cute)
>minimum atm is 150 - 200k
a cute
A CUTE!
seems like a good choice if the vehicles are license built in Germany
I hope we get some with the 120mm mortar too as M113 mortar carrier replacement
I suspect that the 120mm will be put onto Boxers.
would make sense to use a better protected vehicle if you want to make use of the direct fire option, true
Ngl I kinda hate how the stock boxer looks but that's pure sex.
I perceive it
This with a roof mounted 25mm autocannon would be way better fire support than simply putting a tank gun on the Boxer. The NEMO 120mm gun can engage directly and NLOS.
Why is the the barrel casing angular
Simpler to make while also looking cool.