LM is paying into maintenance themselves for some of the more dire shortcomings. In a rare moment of clarity, the USAF said "hey, you guys can't just take $1 trillion and run" and is making them fix parts with obvious deficiencies.
look fella i don't mind the daily threads because i think it's a cool plane but if you feel like you have to spice it up with some bait to get replies maybe you're posting too often
better would be buying the rights to the F-23 and adding all the good features of the F-35 to it. then enlarge the airframe by 3 meters since you are getting better performance with the F-135 engine. more range and better stealth is why I would chose a modified f-23 over the f-22.
Honestly I don't give a shit and I don't have the requisite knowledge to make any assertions on what would be optimal.
All I know is that competition breeds better products and services, and getting more of it can only help the US MIC make better shit.
That would be so expensive in development that it would be prohibitive. And oh, remember, the F135 have a much higher bpr so inlets would need to be redesign which will incur another penalty on both weight and aerodynamics.
And remember, it's high bpr would not be apt on higher Mach speeds so yeah, performance would be reduced in higher supersonic range.
The frick? Lockmart is anything but being dumd isn't one of them. KF-21 is meant for people who couldn't even afford F-35A but still wanted something more future-proof than F-16 or even EF/Rafale
Because LockMart as well as South Korean conglomerates (which were pooled together to form KAI) are partners in F-35 programme of course they're going to use and existing design that they're most familiar with
Lockheed did give aids during its development by sending off boomer engineers who had participated in the F-22 development who had no other use otherwise.
Imagine being Chinese and having no respect whatsoever for the israeli concepts of intellectual property and plagiarism. I sincerely admire that and hope the West can learn to emulate it.
They're aiming for a unit cost of $65 miliion, about half the price of the current F-16V. Totally worth it.
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/04/13/south-korean-kai-aims-to-export-kfx-fighter-at-65-million-apiece/
>lm is shitting it's pants
No it's not, it's actively helping with the KF-21 development and is one of the only reasons it's on-task and on time. >havoc on potential F-35 sales
The F-35 is LEAGUES above the KF-21.
Even South Korea knows this.
The KF-21's exports will be limited due to it's reliance on American engines - if America thinks the KF-21 will seriously affect domestic sales (F-35 or otherwise) it will simply increase the costs of the engines making the overall KF-21 costs uncompetative.
You seriously underestimate America's soft power, hard power and MIC.
>is one of the only reasons it's on-task and on time.
Koreans already had extensive experiences with an aircraft development prior to the current program thanks to the T-50/FA-50 program. The US had already tried to kill the program by not allowing the technology transfer of sensitive components following the F-35 deal with the LM. So the Koreans did it their own way. >The KF-21's exports will be limited due to it's reliance on American engines
Koreans are already fully aware of this so they're already working on developing and manufacturing a local engine by 2030, when the mass production of KF-21 begins. >if America thinks the KF-21 will seriously affect domestic sales (F-35 or otherwise) it will simply increase the costs of the engines making the overall KF-21 costs uncompetative.
This is very unlikely because not just the manufacturer of the F-414 engine is the GE, this is already a great business opportunity for them. Currently, the total planned number of KF-21 for South Korea is about 120, and that would mean about 240 engines + maintenance costs is already an irresistable offer.
The T-50 is a halfbaked trainer that still doesn't have a domestic AESA radar. >10 Yr to make domestic jet engines
China's been trying for almost 40 years and is only just got anywhere, and even then their skills are questionable. >GE
Who are at the whim of the FMS via American Congress. 120 KF-21 vs continued reliance on American hardware. Easy.
Why do you need a fricking AESA for an intermediate jet trainer
>muh M346FA has aesa
Yeah and for what Turkmenistan paid they could practically bought the same number of Gripen C. Someone at Leonardo is making a fat checks out of it
>Why do you need a fricking AESA for an intermediate jet trainer
Ask SK, who've been desperately trying to integrate an AESA radar for literally years.
If they can't do it for their T-50, what makes you think they'll be able to do it for their KF-21?
Except that they don't? T-50 is for trainer role only and they didn't even have radar to begin with. FA-50 is meant as second line fighter to replace both F-4 and F-5 as well as for CAP and point defence there's no need for AESA.
Any demand for AESA on FA-50 is going to be for export only if/when some bozo is willing to pay both for the radar and integration cost (as well as bribe money for LockMart as they've been blocking any meaningful upgrade on FA-50) instead of simply buying a Gripen
2 years ago
Anonymous
Do you not think the fact that they have almost 0 domestic radar/fcs experience is going to affect their export credentials
2 years ago
Anonymous
Nope. Raytheon already proposed racr aesa radar for FA-50. Now the issue is who's crazy enough to pay for integration cost and hush money to Lockmart
2 years ago
Anonymous
So they're at the whim of the U.S? That's exactly why the KF-21 won't be competitive on the international.stage.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The same reason why Gripen couldn't be competitive even though it practically had 1/3 american made stuff inside it?
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's correct.
Saab had to resort to bribery to be competitive.
Users >Sweden
Duh >Czech
Massive bribery scandal and ridiculous 150% offset scheme for a lease. >Hungary
Another ridiculous offset/lease program. >South Africa
Local production deal and only purchased as they outright stated they "faced no military threat". A token purchase. >Thailand
This is actually quite good. Hats off. >Brazil
Embraer got massive local production rights despite paying substantially more.
Now let's look at failed bids. >Austria
Went typhoons instead. >Botswana
Went nowhere >Canada
Got F-35's in the end. >Columbia
Got F-16 instead. >India
Got Rafales instead. >Indonesia
Will get Rafale or F-16V as gripen has unfathomly high production delay. >Filipino
Maybe Gripen but almost certainly confirmed to be F-16V. >Argentina
Veto'd by UK >Mexico
Lobbied by America >Ireland
Lobbied by UK >Bulgaria
F-16V's instead >Croatia
Used rafales instead. >Denmark
F-35 instead >Finland
F-35 instead >Netherlands
F-35 instead >Norway
F-35 instead >Poland
F-35 and F-16V instead >Slovakia
F-16V instead >Switzerland
F-35 instead >Chile
F-16 instead
If you're "Nato"/Western Allied you go American or maybe British.
If you're somewhat "Neutral" you go for Rafale.
If you're not you go for Chinese or maybe Russian if you hate your economy.
>The T-50 is a halfbaked trainer
Really doubtful as it had no major problems so far. >still doesn't have a domestic AESA radar.
This is more of a policy driven matter in fact. DODs are notorious for being stingy, likes to save on things that they don't prioritize and spend it on something they consider more important. In fact, the manufacturer has been offering an AESA option for its customers at certain costs but it's just that no one has been willing to do it. >Who are at the whim of the FMS via American Congress.
I highly doubt the US congress will even consider banning exports to its allies, especially for something that's completely substituable.
That's just suicidal considering the fact that the reason why GE was selected in the first place was because it's written the lowest bid already. They will just go for the European substitute like EJ200 or M88, or even consider complete localization.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The m88 and ej200 are all completely different in size
>tank transmission
Fixed and it's being tested by the turks to be employed for Altay. >I'll fricking eat my shoe if they have a reliable working jet engine by 2030.
They have already been producing turbo fans for cruise missiles at the moment, and the new UCAV they've been working on will be employing domestic engine so it's not that far-fetched idea in fact.
Cruise missiles use cheap disposable turbo fans that only operate for a few hours and thrusts are usually less than 1000 lbf, while the F414, an afterburning turbo fan, is 22000 lbf class and has a lifecycle of a few thousand operational hours, and the turbo fan for their UCAV (planned to be introduced in the 30s) produces only 8000 lbf, which is also too weak to power a manned fighter jet. They can't produce powerful and reliable fighter engines, that's why they need to buy American ones in the first place.
>Korea Aerospace Industries expects to have built 120 KF-21s by 2032
Don't get me wrong, it's pretty impressive compared to the four fricking planes Russia built in two decades
But by 2032 there's going to be at least 2,400 F-35s in the world, do you really "compete" with something that there's literally 20x as many of?
Shit like JF-17 and Gripen continued to be sold worldwide even as single engined fighter segment is being cornered by F-16 so there's no reason why KF-21 couldn't find customers in the sea of F-35s
>But by 2032 there's going to be at least 2,400 F-35s in the world
My estimate is slightly lower.
There are assume 750 delivered F-35s currently, FRP (full rate production) just started this year at 151-153 deliveries that are expected to continue at that rate until all orders are filled.
By my math that's 1510-1530 F-35s delivered by 2032 + the ~750 already delivered for a total of around 2260-2280 total delivered F-35s by 2032.
Im surprised the americans allowed this to go through, they usually shut down all foreign military technological development not in their control/interest, at least in their vassal states
>Be 20-something brainless /k/tard >In 2050 >Having sweaty argument on Tibetan Sock Washing Forum >HURRR Da KF-21 was bettur dan da F-35, lemme get dat wiki link muhfugga bix nood >Looks up Wikipedia >It has gone down in history as slightly faster or something because Chinese propaganda is pretty strong >But since they only ever built 8 prototypes and 6 were destroyed when a Chinese carrier hit a baby seal and sank into the ocean, it never had a combat impact >Literally a nothingburger
Call me when the first thousand come off the production line and we'll talk.
>b-b-but it was designed with an internal weapons bay that will get built into the 3rd block upgrade in the mid to late 2030s, that MIGHT make it a 5th gen design
Unironically, I think Taiwan might be a good market for these. Can't get and can't afford F-35s, needs something shiny for the KMT generals, and new defence purchases for the DPP crowd.
Taiwan is building a similar fighter of their own design, using the same engine as KF-21.
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/31019-taiwan-next-generation-fighter-foreign-parts
Meanwhile maintenance is already the biggest revenue source from F35 for LM
LM is paying into maintenance themselves for some of the more dire shortcomings. In a rare moment of clarity, the USAF said "hey, you guys can't just take $1 trillion and run" and is making them fix parts with obvious deficiencies.
on purpose
look fella i don't mind the daily threads because i think it's a cool plane but if you feel like you have to spice it up with some bait to get replies maybe you're posting too often
Good, competition will only force LM to make the F-35 even better.
this anon fights the real war, against complacency
better would be buying the rights to the F-23 and adding all the good features of the F-35 to it. then enlarge the airframe by 3 meters since you are getting better performance with the F-135 engine. more range and better stealth is why I would chose a modified f-23 over the f-22.
Honestly I don't give a shit and I don't have the requisite knowledge to make any assertions on what would be optimal.
All I know is that competition breeds better products and services, and getting more of it can only help the US MIC make better shit.
KF-21 isn't even a threat to the mature F-35 program. It's a 4.5 gen fighter and best compared to those fighters.
>muh 0.5 degrees of cope
If it can fly right now over Donbas and not get shot down by either side's soviet tier AA it's gen 5
Gen 3 could do that
That would be so expensive in development that it would be prohibitive. And oh, remember, the F135 have a much higher bpr so inlets would need to be redesign which will incur another penalty on both weight and aerodynamics.
And remember, it's high bpr would not be apt on higher Mach speeds so yeah, performance would be reduced in higher supersonic range.
It looks exactly like the f 35 wtf
The frick? Lockmart is anything but being dumd isn't one of them. KF-21 is meant for people who couldn't even afford F-35A but still wanted something more future-proof than F-16 or even EF/Rafale
Because LockMart as well as South Korean conglomerates (which were pooled together to form KAI) are partners in F-35 programme of course they're going to use and existing design that they're most familiar with
Lockheed did give aids during its development by sending off boomer engineers who had participated in the F-22 development who had no other use otherwise.
>Lockheed did give aids
Well that’s not nice
>aids
>murrica
It checks out
And that's a good thing
World needs more cute shortstack plane tummies
>tickles f35 belly
>f35 giggles
Fat annie a cute
RCS is RCS.
Imagine being Chinese and having no respect whatsoever for the israeli concepts of intellectual property and plagiarism. I sincerely admire that and hope the West can learn to emulate it.
The KF-21 is Korean moron
is that a f-35 ripoff?
It's the F-35: BTS edition
heheheh
>f35 but shittier
for what purpose
Not paying a gorillion dollars to achieve what the F22 could do 20 years ago.
The KF-21 isn't an F-22 analogous though, it's more like the F-35
They serve two totally different roles.
>This new KF-21 aircraft will wreak havoc on potential F-35 sales opportunities.
maybe if your country is a poor shit hole
>thinking they developed 4.5th gen(reduced from 5th gen in real) from scratch just to replace a few dozen aging fighter fleets.
Here's (You)
KF-21 is for countries who wants to get a hands on 4.5th Gen plane. It have reduced RCS but not enough. And oh, LM is a partner on this one.
>shittier and likely more expensive than an F-35
It's over F-35 bros...
They're aiming for a unit cost of $65 miliion, about half the price of the current F-16V. Totally worth it.
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/04/13/south-korean-kai-aims-to-export-kfx-fighter-at-65-million-apiece/
Cool 4.5Gen Plane.
Could make sense as a cheap F-35 subsidary.
>more expensive
>not stealthy
Compared to what?
>lm is shitting it's pants
No it's not, it's actively helping with the KF-21 development and is one of the only reasons it's on-task and on time.
>havoc on potential F-35 sales
The F-35 is LEAGUES above the KF-21.
Even South Korea knows this.
The KF-21's exports will be limited due to it's reliance on American engines - if America thinks the KF-21 will seriously affect domestic sales (F-35 or otherwise) it will simply increase the costs of the engines making the overall KF-21 costs uncompetative.
You seriously underestimate America's soft power, hard power and MIC.
>is one of the only reasons it's on-task and on time.
Koreans already had extensive experiences with an aircraft development prior to the current program thanks to the T-50/FA-50 program. The US had already tried to kill the program by not allowing the technology transfer of sensitive components following the F-35 deal with the LM. So the Koreans did it their own way.
>The KF-21's exports will be limited due to it's reliance on American engines
Koreans are already fully aware of this so they're already working on developing and manufacturing a local engine by 2030, when the mass production of KF-21 begins.
>if America thinks the KF-21 will seriously affect domestic sales (F-35 or otherwise) it will simply increase the costs of the engines making the overall KF-21 costs uncompetative.
This is very unlikely because not just the manufacturer of the F-414 engine is the GE, this is already a great business opportunity for them. Currently, the total planned number of KF-21 for South Korea is about 120, and that would mean about 240 engines + maintenance costs is already an irresistable offer.
They wouldn't transfer AESA tech to anyone else what makes you think that the asiatics are special
Even Japan had to create their own AESA radar for F-2 despite Lockmart "helping" them for pretty much everything else
They never made such a demand. They only needed a know-how as to how to accomplish sensor fusioning since they've already had the hardware.
The T-50 is a halfbaked trainer that still doesn't have a domestic AESA radar.
>10 Yr to make domestic jet engines
China's been trying for almost 40 years and is only just got anywhere, and even then their skills are questionable.
>GE
Who are at the whim of the FMS via American Congress. 120 KF-21 vs continued reliance on American hardware. Easy.
Why do you need a fricking AESA for an intermediate jet trainer
>muh M346FA has aesa
Yeah and for what Turkmenistan paid they could practically bought the same number of Gripen C. Someone at Leonardo is making a fat checks out of it
>Why do you need a fricking AESA for an intermediate jet trainer
Ask SK, who've been desperately trying to integrate an AESA radar for literally years.
If they can't do it for their T-50, what makes you think they'll be able to do it for their KF-21?
>integrate aesa on T-50
Except that they don't? T-50 is for trainer role only and they didn't even have radar to begin with. FA-50 is meant as second line fighter to replace both F-4 and F-5 as well as for CAP and point defence there's no need for AESA.
Any demand for AESA on FA-50 is going to be for export only if/when some bozo is willing to pay both for the radar and integration cost (as well as bribe money for LockMart as they've been blocking any meaningful upgrade on FA-50) instead of simply buying a Gripen
Do you not think the fact that they have almost 0 domestic radar/fcs experience is going to affect their export credentials
Nope. Raytheon already proposed racr aesa radar for FA-50. Now the issue is who's crazy enough to pay for integration cost and hush money to Lockmart
So they're at the whim of the U.S? That's exactly why the KF-21 won't be competitive on the international.stage.
The same reason why Gripen couldn't be competitive even though it practically had 1/3 american made stuff inside it?
That's correct.
Saab had to resort to bribery to be competitive.
Users
>Sweden
Duh
>Czech
Massive bribery scandal and ridiculous 150% offset scheme for a lease.
>Hungary
Another ridiculous offset/lease program.
>South Africa
Local production deal and only purchased as they outright stated they "faced no military threat". A token purchase.
>Thailand
This is actually quite good. Hats off.
>Brazil
Embraer got massive local production rights despite paying substantially more.
Now let's look at failed bids.
>Austria
Went typhoons instead.
>Botswana
Went nowhere
>Canada
Got F-35's in the end.
>Columbia
Got F-16 instead.
>India
Got Rafales instead.
>Indonesia
Will get Rafale or F-16V as gripen has unfathomly high production delay.
>Filipino
Maybe Gripen but almost certainly confirmed to be F-16V.
>Argentina
Veto'd by UK
>Mexico
Lobbied by America
>Ireland
Lobbied by UK
>Bulgaria
F-16V's instead
>Croatia
Used rafales instead.
>Denmark
F-35 instead
>Finland
F-35 instead
>Netherlands
F-35 instead
>Norway
F-35 instead
>Poland
F-35 and F-16V instead
>Slovakia
F-16V instead
>Switzerland
F-35 instead
>Chile
F-16 instead
Gripen E flyaway cost ~$85m
F-16v flyaway cost ~$64m
F-35 flyaway cost ~$90m
Don't worry about Lockhead.
If you're "Nato"/Western Allied you go American or maybe British.
If you're somewhat "Neutral" you go for Rafale.
If you're not you go for Chinese or maybe Russian if you hate your economy.
>The T-50 is a halfbaked trainer
Really doubtful as it had no major problems so far.
>still doesn't have a domestic AESA radar.
This is more of a policy driven matter in fact. DODs are notorious for being stingy, likes to save on things that they don't prioritize and spend it on something they consider more important. In fact, the manufacturer has been offering an AESA option for its customers at certain costs but it's just that no one has been willing to do it.
>Who are at the whim of the FMS via American Congress.
I highly doubt the US congress will even consider banning exports to its allies, especially for something that's completely substituable.
Not outright banning, but increasing prices so the foreign offering is uncompetitive
That's just suicidal considering the fact that the reason why GE was selected in the first place was because it's written the lowest bid already. They will just go for the European substitute like EJ200 or M88, or even consider complete localization.
The m88 and ej200 are all completely different in size
Koreans can't even into a domestic tank transmission. I'll fricking eat my shoe if they have a reliable working jet engine by 2030.
>tank transmission
Fixed and it's being tested by the turks to be employed for Altay.
>I'll fricking eat my shoe if they have a reliable working jet engine by 2030.
They have already been producing turbo fans for cruise missiles at the moment, and the new UCAV they've been working on will be employing domestic engine so it's not that far-fetched idea in fact.
Cruise missiles use cheap disposable turbo fans that only operate for a few hours and thrusts are usually less than 1000 lbf, while the F414, an afterburning turbo fan, is 22000 lbf class and has a lifecycle of a few thousand operational hours, and the turbo fan for their UCAV (planned to be introduced in the 30s) produces only 8000 lbf, which is also too weak to power a manned fighter jet. They can't produce powerful and reliable fighter engines, that's why they need to buy American ones in the first place.
>Korea Aerospace Industries expects to have built 120 KF-21s by 2032
Don't get me wrong, it's pretty impressive compared to the four fricking planes Russia built in two decades
But by 2032 there's going to be at least 2,400 F-35s in the world, do you really "compete" with something that there's literally 20x as many of?
Shit like JF-17 and Gripen continued to be sold worldwide even as single engined fighter segment is being cornered by F-16 so there's no reason why KF-21 couldn't find customers in the sea of F-35s
>gripen
Lolno, a modern gripen is similar price to F-16v
>But by 2032 there's going to be at least 2,400 F-35s in the world
My estimate is slightly lower.
There are assume 750 delivered F-35s currently, FRP (full rate production) just started this year at 151-153 deliveries that are expected to continue at that rate until all orders are filled.
By my math that's 1510-1530 F-35s delivered by 2032 + the ~750 already delivered for a total of around 2260-2280 total delivered F-35s by 2032.
So what exactly is this video about? i couldn't understnasd it i don't speak italian
Black person Lockheed is working with KAI to sell F-21/T-50 to air force as an intern trainer. If anything Boeing should be worried.
https://www.airforcemag.com/new-air-force-trainer-jet-supports-reforge-concept/
USAF is already leasing 4 to 8 T-50
>no internal weapons bay
Literally no one is going to buy this.
Im surprised the americans allowed this to go through, they usually shut down all foreign military technological development not in their control/interest, at least in their vassal states
>lm is shitting its pants over a plane that is licensed from them
>Be 20-something brainless /k/tard
>In 2050
>Having sweaty argument on Tibetan Sock Washing Forum
>HURRR Da KF-21 was bettur dan da F-35, lemme get dat wiki link muhfugga bix nood
>Looks up Wikipedia
>It has gone down in history as slightly faster or something because Chinese propaganda is pretty strong
>But since they only ever built 8 prototypes and 6 were destroyed when a Chinese carrier hit a baby seal and sank into the ocean, it never had a combat impact
>Literally a nothingburger
Call me when the first thousand come off the production line and we'll talk.
a-a-anon... the kf-21 is South Korean...
though your point still applies, it's not a F35 competitor by any means
>KF 21
>no internal weapons bay
>4.5 gen
>funding problems already, unresolved
Tell me how this is a competitor?
It's not. OP is a homosexual.
It will replace planes in Korea's 'low' in their 'low/hi' mix. It isn't their lead fighter.
This guy is also a moron
It's meant to replace KF-16 as F-5 is being replaced by FA-50 and F-4 is being replaced by F-15K
Exactly, not their high end, just their low end. They are making a 5th gen next to address the high end.
>b-b-but it was designed with an internal weapons bay that will get built into the 3rd block upgrade in the mid to late 2030s, that MIGHT make it a 5th gen design
wew
They are already working on that matter by fast tracking their stealth UCAV development, which indeed will employ an internal weapons bay.
>external tgp
big oof
is that bulge the cannon? lol
>uWu
its pseudo 5th generation fighter for third world countries
Unironically, I think Taiwan might be a good market for these. Can't get and can't afford F-35s, needs something shiny for the KMT generals, and new defence purchases for the DPP crowd.
Taiwan is building a similar fighter of their own design, using the same engine as KF-21.
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/31019-taiwan-next-generation-fighter-foreign-parts
This is just a superhornet blk 3 with make up
Still a more realistic prospect than AMCA.
>radar starts playing Samsung ads
yeah, no