Is there any truth to the idea that shotguns are great for dense jungle warfare or is that mostly just fuddlore?

Is there any truth to the idea that shotguns are great for dense jungle warfare or is that mostly just fuddlore?

  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Anything a shotgun could do in the jungle, a machine gun with higher velocity ammo can do better. Shotguns are good inside of buildings and and for hunting birds and that's it. Americans just had very shitty squad automatic weapons in the 60s and 70s. I would never want to be issued an M60.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think the idea behind it was that shotguns have a wider area per shot, which is handy when you can't see where you're being shot at from through the bush and want to just pepper the area with lead until you hit whatever's shooting at you.
      Not sure how well that'd work in practice however, would probably depend on the shell load.
      Even then, a machine gun would probably work just as well, or an M16 on auto if you have the whole squad spraying for the target.

      >Americans just had very shitty squad automatic weapons in the 60s and 70s.
      I heard the issue is that later into the war the M60 started having reliability issues with the feeding mechanism due to poor maintenance, but early war they were fairly reliable.
      That said, IIRC you could slam the cover down and have everything close up in a way that it'd be more or less jammed until you popped it, drew the bolt back, and closed it again.
      >That's not ever close to the right terminology
      Yeah, I've never owned/fired a machine gun because my country hates freedom.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Americans just had very shitty squad automatic weapons in the 60s and 70s. I would never want to be issued an M60.
      It was worse then that, the M60 was the platoon's support machine gun, the squad automatic was 2 of picrel, a bog standard M16 with a shitty clip on bipod and before that it was an M14 with a bipod. America had this idea for a while post BAR that they could just use their standard rifle as a SAW but unlike the Soviet's and their RPK, they didn't think they needed to make any changes to the weapon to accommodate it's new role. Neither the M14 or M16 got a heavy barrel, it was especially thin on the old M16. Neither had a magazine option above 20rds. The M14 was so uncontrollable that just before they switched to the M16 they designed an issued a short lived stock with pistol grips and a higher stock just to try and get it under control.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      and GI's used the m16 as a submachinegun innawoods. shotguns are nasty as fuck in bush and CLINTSMITHSHOTGUNSRIPSHITOFF.MP4
      Id rather have a shotgun in dense as fuck crap like vietnam. ive hunted bastard boar hogs in the same sort of conditions where a knife or a shotgun is going to get you a guaranteed kill.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >fuddlore
    You mean "tried and true method criticized by zoomers to justify their x10 more expensive modern solution"? If so, yes shotguns are very effective in the jungle.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      (You)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Come back to me when a reliable semi-auto 12 gauge with a magazine capacity bigger than "fuck all" hits the market.

        >nooooooo it's not tactical enough!!
        >12ga go brrrrrrrr

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >12ga go brrrrrrrr
          No it doesn't, it goes BANG CLACK CLACK.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >what is USAS-12
            >what is AA12*
            >what is HK CAWS*
            >*not issued unfortunately

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              You forgot PANCOR and DAD12

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Don't forget the Remington 7188 which was actually issued in Vietnam

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I never understood that vest, why have that few rounds?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ID on the shoes?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >ENTER: the gen12
            thumbman did a vid. looks like a fuckin monster in full auto

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Come back to me when a reliable semi-auto 12 gauge with a magazine capacity bigger than "fuck all" hits the market.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Black Aces tactical PRO is a semi auto 12 gauge with box or drum mag capability

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          is it reliable?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Ok

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Fuckin based (please ignore the white rifle it isn't finished)

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I remember reading once that heavy shot suffered less deflection from dense foliage than lighter, higher velocity rifle rounds, but I'm no physicist so that might've been fuddlore too. That was one of the issues with flechettes, though, so it kinda checks out.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's pretty much fuddlore. When the US was in vietnam they issued shotguns to the South Vietnamese and other allies, that was mainly because they were cheap, and because they didn't want to go handing out M-16s to everyone, so they got the crappier shotgun instead.

      That doesn't make any sense. A single pellet of 00 buck weighs 54 grains, they are not heavier than a 556 bullet.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        But there's more of them, and in a pattern. A missed shot doesn't mean much. Then there are the factors of having inventory, and familiarity. Maybe good 'ol boy knows how to bring a shotgun up and get a bead relatively quickly from hunting over a new fangled plastic rifle.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >light weight, low velocity, low sectional density soft lead is superior
          Kek, the absolute state of PrepHole.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You do realize jungle warfare is <50m right? And usually it was section commanders whose job it was to keep bayoneting morons off the radioman. Or the pointman whose job is to get killed at knife range during an ambush.

            >But there's more of them, and in a pattern.
            That's an entirely different goalpost, anon. The original claim was that buckshot deflected less because it was supposedly heavier than a rifle bullet. It's not heavier than a rifle bullet.

            Musket ballistics (which are more in-tune with shotguns) are closer than .223

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >But there's more of them, and in a pattern.
          That's an entirely different goalpost, anon. The original claim was that buckshot deflected less because it was supposedly heavier than a rifle bullet. It's not heavier than a rifle bullet.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            And even then, a random pattern of ineffective buckshot is shit anyways

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Spitzer shaped bullets also are easier to deflect than round shot, they destabilize easier

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No.
          Spitzer points are slightly easier to deflect than very heavy, slow flat nose/Keith style bullets that are jacketed or hardcast.
          Soft lead pellets with low SD do the worst, because as soon as they hit something they deform horribly.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Fair enough, adding that to the thought cabinet

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This is mentioned in several Vietnam memoirs, mostly in the form of saying that the Pig and the AK were not subject to as much deflection from foliage as the M16. If that's true or just the soldiers perception, idk, but it would make sense.

      I find it odd how long it took to issue a GPMG for US ground forces instead of hiding them in weapons platoons. Like three major wars where the enemy did it and we acknowledged it was effective but still resisted.

      Although based ST2 was running ops with OOPS ALL M60S which must have been hilarious

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If you're shooting at little dudes popping out from tunnels then it may be better for a quick reaction shot.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was fuddlore, shotguns performed horribly in dense jungles.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Proof?

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    wasn't the vietnam load no.1 or no.4 buckshot? but anyways, the logic i remember reading or hearing was increased hit probably PER SHOT, in short range low visibility environments.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I'm sure that was the idea behind it, but shotgun use in Vietnam by US soldiers was almost 0.
      In the jungle it was shit, mostly given to rear echelon non combat troops.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Basically, Rhodesians also occasionally used shotguns in combat and the basic idea was that in closer quarters it increased your chances to hit since you were sending 9 projectiles down range with a single trigger pull.
      That was the idea at least, how well this actually worked and wasn't just a placebo is anyone's guess.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They were mainly used by the bsap, not in frontline combat.

        https://i.imgur.com/4wyt0qh.jpg

        There was a medal of honor that was given out to a soldier that used a shotgun in NAM I believe it was a stevens 77e

        It's actually really funny that a ton of shotguns that were used in Vietnam were not issued.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There was a medal of honor that was given out to a soldier that used a shotgun in NAM I believe it was a stevens 77e

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      ONE glove?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Gimme da deets, so I can read up on the story.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Its in this article
        https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/stevens-model-77e-shotgun/

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Its less
    >spray buckshot into the jungle, hitting all the hidden VC
    and more
    >oh god a man with a knife/bayonet just jumped out of that shrub I need to kill him with 1 shot ASAP

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I knew a Marine nam vet who did 2 tours. He said his preferred weapon was shotgun.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Is there any truth to the idea that shotguns are great for dense jungle warfare
    Yes, but bear in mind this dates back to when the people who said so were fighting in the jungle with Lee Enfields, Garands, M14s and FN FALs. When the alternative is single action or semiautomatic sending a single rifle bullet downrange at best, yes, a pump gun spreading pellets does have better knock down power and hit probability

    >but what about automatics
    WHEN available, they were also preferred. The Bren, Sten, Sterling, BAR, Thompson and M3 were also widely used - in fact the Sterling made its name in jungle warfare.

    Once automatic select fire rifles became the standard sidearm for all militaries, shotguns were relegated to door busting.

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