Engagement ranges under 5 yards when you absolutely can not afford to have anything going through walls. It's still quite deadly, but not as risky to your nice things/family/neighbors as slugs or buckshot.
>future scientist breaks into my house >he's armed and dangerous >thankfully I have my 12 gauge loaded with Jack's special DOUBLE EXPLOSIVE LOADS >he looks up at me buck naked with nothing but my headlight pointed at him >before he can drop teh tv and raise his gun I fire >My tv is gone, my cat is gone, my ears are bleeding >the entire room is covered in charred scientist embers >and all that's left of the upstanding gentleman is a pair of legs still soiling themselves and a hair comb >I now have to spend 48 hours on cleaning up the mess after forensics gets through >at least it didn't over penetrate :^)
If they're not armed it would be pretty fun to corner them and mag(or whatever)dump them with birdshot, see what happens, and then execute them if you have to. Just make sure to fear for your life the entire time.
based
The neck is a surprisingly delicate target. Aim for that.
Having to think about whether a bullet might penetrate your walls and accidentally kill a neighbour is such an american thing.
A nation that has given humanity deep insights like stick-frame housing and foam-as-a-structural-materilal.
Unless you live in a mansion birdshot is going to kill anybody not wearing body armor inside your house that you have a direct line on. If they do have body armor just aim for the head and turn them into Helen Keller. >I'm not worried about over-penetration.
Think about how everybody in your house responds to stress and panic. Unless you live in a house full of robots that will automatically take cover when they hear a suspicious noise instead of freeze up or go to investigate, you need to worry about over-penetration. >But it won't kill them instantly
Maybe not, but they are sure as hell out of the fight for that day. As good as fixing a thief is, your objective is to A. make sure all your people come out okay and B. protect your property.
Itt anons pretend and ounce of lead going 1200 fps through a wall is less lethal than a slightly different ounce of lead going 1200 fps through a wall
There's a webm and a video I've seen that prevent me from ever relying on birdshot to save me or my families life. One was a webm of a School shooter with a shotgun. He literally aimed at a fat tumblerina, shot her POINT BLANK in the chest, and she stood there frozen for a second in disbelief, ran and survived. If it can't stop a modern college woman with a point blank shot to the chest, I cannot reliably stop a man. Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman, the guy would have dumped his whole Glock mag in my general direction.
Second is the video of a mini-documentary of a wigger who went to the hood and got shot twice point blank range IN THE HEAD. He now wears a hat all the time to hide the giant bald spot from the skin graft. He wasn't even close to dying, all the birdshot bounced off his skull. He could run and call 911. Again, had he HAD a gun, he could have shot his Black person assailant despite two birdshot blasts to the head.
Yes there are instances of birdshot killing people, but they've mostly been execution style where someone will walk up next to someone and press the barrel right on the person they're about to kill. Most shootings happen at 3 yards so I'd expect even worse results than what happened to the fat chick or wigger in those videos I mentioned. My family and my life is too valuable to rely on something made to kill birds that weigh only a few ounces.
Before idiots start calling it a miss:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/ >Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
Not a miss, but flatly inconsistent with every birdshot injury I've ever seen or read about in detail. You could split a pig's head open at that range.
>Direct evidence >Reject it because it doesn't fit your personal narrative of ineffective birdshot. >You're so smart tourist-anon, you must be an awesome reddit and discord mod! Congratulations!
>Direct evidence
Show me the medical report. You don't know the shot size, the powder load, or whether there was any malfunction, in other words you don't know anything. >Reject it because it doesn't fit your personal
experience, my personal experience and the loads of examples I've seen and the insistence of Paul Harrel, who's a champion level competition shooter, prolific hunter, military firearms instructor, and has actually killed several people in "self defense" over the years.
See also Jerry Miculek, who insists birdshot is effective at close range. He gets more firearms experience in a month than you'll have in your entire life.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Show the medical reports backing your "experience" up. Not an appeal to bigger and better names than yours, show us your credentials and direct evidence contrary to the video evidence you're rejecting. We all know it won't happen though you plebbit troon tourist.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Post baseless fuddlore and impossible to examine "examples" that contradict what the most respected experts say >"give me the necessary information to assess your example." >"no."
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Dilator confirmed. Btfo and will never be accepted as a women.
11 months ago
Anonymous
You literally made the claim that it was a “dud,” whatever the frick that is. Now post your guns and a timestamp you Black person
11 months ago
Anonymous
>You literally made the claim that it was a “dud,
Specifically because of it's inconsistency with many other examples.
>whatever the frick that is
... You know ammunition malfunctions right?
>How likely is it to have ammo be a dud?
Depends on the brand and how the moron stored his ammunition. More likely for a moron to have an ammunition malfunction of any kind.
>Now how likely is it for ammo to be a dud during a mass shooting?
... at least as likely as it is to happen at any other time? Why would a mass shooting make a bum round less likely?
>We see the shotgun go bang and we know the fatty was hit.
The injury does not seem consistent with the injuries I've seen and studied.
No you stupid dumbfrick for a Black person, why the frick would you load birdshot for a self defense gun you fricking pussy, that is the stupidest fricking shit i have ever heard in my life, you basically are asking to die.
Who has ever been killed by someone after shooting them with birdshot at close range? Name one person.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Is this consistent with your "research" you fricking moronic Black person
11 months ago
Anonymous
Nine minutes? give a timestamp at least moron.
https://boards.PrepHole/b/thread/900950140#top
11 months ago
Anonymous
Well everything went real fricking quiet real fricking fast huh.
11 months ago
Anonymous
No you stupid dumbfrick for a Black person, why the frick would you load birdshot for a self defense gun you fricking pussy, that is the stupidest fricking shit i have ever heard in my life, you basically are asking to die.
>Dilator confirmed. Btfo and will never be accepted as a women.
You fricking moron birds are frail as shit their bones have to be light just fo fly so they're not very durable. The tumblrina in that video has a protective layer of fat and bone thats why birdshot did not have enough stopping power
Show the medical reports backing your "experience" up. Not an appeal to bigger and better names than yours, show us your credentials and direct evidence contrary to the video evidence you're rejecting. We all know it won't happen though you plebbit troon tourist.
>Direct evidence >Reject it because it doesn't fit your personal narrative of ineffective birdshot. >You're so smart tourist-anon, you must be an awesome reddit and discord mod! Congratulations!
Thread with pictures of birdshot injuries and deaths up on /b/ right now.
11 months ago
Anonymous
How likely is it to have ammo be a dud? Now how likely is it for ammo to be a dud during a mass shooting? Chances are not that great. We see the shotgun go bang and we know the fatty was hit. You are pulling shit out of your ass and saying it is a dud.
>I slammed a door on my hand and broke my fingers. >DID YOU GET THEM XRAYED?!?! YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WERE BROKEN!!!!! >I can see my bone sticking out of my skin.
You are the moron in the middle one.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Post baseless claim and impossible to examine opinion that contradict what the most respected experts say
Wow you really sold me on that being a dud.
Since you only care what famous people say. What are Clint Smith’s or Larry Vickers’s opinions on using birdshot over buckshot?
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Show me the medical report.
Show me any supporting your side. Show me anything contradicting this video. >You don't know the shot size, the powder load, or whether there was any malfunction, in other words you don't know anything.
Correct, you don’t know anything either.
You’re asking people to not believe a video you can see with their own eyes why not listening a single reason or giving any evidence to why they should. Do you realize how dumb that is? Never mind, of course you don’t.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>See also Jerry Miculek, who insists birdshot is effective at close range
Something can both be effective while being substantially less effective than an alternative at the same time. A Vespa is an effective way to move from point A to point B but a regular car is almost always better.
I love Paul but his meat target tests aren’t high quality evidence. You can push though a lot of meat with your fingers. You certainly can with just a dinner/bread knife. You can’t do that to live tissue.
You fricking moron birds are frail as shit their bones have to be light just fo fly so they're not very durable. The tumblrina in that video has a protective layer of fat and bone thats why birdshot did not have enough stopping power
No it was a dud farted out by the primer or whatever. The guy had previously shot duds, he'd picked up a bag of random old shells out of his dad's garage or something.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>dud farted out by the primer or whatever
Proof? >The guy had previously shot duds
Proof? Certainly there is more video or mention of that in the police report if he shot elsewhere on campus. >he'd picked up a bag of random old shells out of his dad's garage or something.
Proof? Also watch this from your expert himself
>but flatly inconsistent with every birdshot injury I've ever seen >Reeeee it doesn’t fit my narrative so I’ll ignore it >the video has to be fake
You are no better than the anti-birdshot crowd you accuse of ignoring photos of people killed with birdshot
>Reeeee it doesn’t fit my narrative so I’ll ignore it
A data set is not a "Narrative" you stupid Black person.
>No, you comparing the two directly is moron.
Either multiple hits is acceptable for self defense or it isn't.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>No, you comparing the two directly is moron. >Either multiple hits is acceptable for self defense or it isn't.
meant for
>Birdshot as ineffective based on the idea (not statistic, just idea) that it will regularly fail to incapacitate in one shot while not believing that pistols are ineffective when they regularly fail to incapacitate with one shot is moronic.
No, you comparing the two directly is moron. Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols is an old ass saying for a reason. Long guns are bigger and more powerful for a reason. Pistol are small and they lose the trade off of effectiveness for carryability and concealability.
A normal 9mm has about 4.5lbs of recoil energy in a full sized pistol weighing 2lbs. A shotgun is many times the overall size weighs 7.5-8.5lbs and has between 17-20lbs of recoil energy with just 1oz at 1200 fps. Why would you expect something 4x the weight with more than 4x the recoil and 4x the energy delivered to act the same? If they perform the same that’s an awful tradeoff
11 months ago
Anonymous
Cherry picked images from some homosexual's gore folder aren't a data set.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Ah so my dozen cases are "cherry picking" and your one case is a trend, a statistic, a repeatable fact, got it.
>A data set
What data set? >either it works or it doesn’t
A semi can tow 80,000lbs and a 1/2 ton pickup tows 10,000lbs. They can both tow so it’s the same right? Both get the job done right?
>They can both tow so it’s the same right?
Is 45 ACP insufficient for self defense?
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Is 45 ACP insufficient for self defense?
Compared to rifles or shotguns with the proper load, yes. Nice goalpost moving from needing 1-2 shots to 5 or more like you said. I never said it was insufficient and you are strawmanning.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Compared to rifles or shotguns with the proper load, yes.
There's no "compared". 45ACP is either sufficient or it isn't. No amount of better options make 45ACP less sufficient, it's an objective value not a relative one.
>Nice goalpost moving from needing 1-2 shots to 5 or more like you said.
It's not a goalpost shift at all you dumb Black person. From the very beginning I've been clear >There's no statistical evidence you're likely to need to hit twice at close range with birdshot to incapacitate >Even if there was, that would still put it on the same scale as pistol statistics.
Discussion of OUTLIERS is a different topic you troon. >Birdshot bad because of one failure after one hit >Pistols not bad because of many failures after many hits
>I never said it was insufficient and you are strawmanning.
Nice goalpost shift, the entire conversation is about, and only about, whether Birdshot is sufficient to reliably incapacitate at close range.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Black person you literally said earlier you’d shoot them 5 times with birdshot and said you dare anyone stand up to that. Myself and others called you moronic for acting like taking 5 shots to drop someone is good. You compared long guns to pistols which is laughable. You are wrong and won’t admit it because you’re emotionally invested.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Black person you literally said earlier you’d shoot them 5 times with birdshot and said you dare anyone stand up to that.
Wrong, I said almost everyone agrees pistols in conventional calibers are very lethal and sufficient for self defense, despite outliers where an assailant or victim takes five shots before dropping.
11 months ago
Anonymous
No you said >>I defy anyone to show me birdshot failing to drop someone with five hits to the body.
And I said >I defy anyone to show me .22LR failing to drop someone with five hits to the body. Is .22 a good HD choice? Just because something can kill doesn’t mean it’s your best choice.
Also you meant dare not defy but whatever
You started equating .45 and 12ga after you said shooting someone 5 times means it’s good.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>No you said >QUOTE the previous fricking sentence >We've all seen videos of people getting shot half a dozen times with a pistol before they drop, yet no one seriously contends that pistols are useless for self defense.
You're a dumb lying sack of shit. I was comparing extreme cases that don't represent the norm.
>Also you meant dare not defy but whatever
"I defy someone to do X" has been a common phrase in English for at least two hundred years you stupid ape.
>You started equating .45 and 12ga after you said shooting someone 5 times means it’s good.
Wrong, I pointed out that thinking .45 is sufficient when it has extreme outliers such as taking half a dozen shots to incapacitate but not applying that standard to birdshot is ludicrous. We're being expected to declare birdshot at close range insufficient to immediately incapacitate because someone was shot with God knows what weight of shot, size, powder load, etc and didn't fall over, in the face of stacks of fist sized holes blown into people's bodies that killed them outright, but we're not expected to throw out every pistol because once in a blue moon someone fights through multiple hits from a .45.
It's hypocrisy.
You know what outlier means right?
11 months ago
Anonymous
>doubling down on what was an innocent typo
Kek. I defy you by doing x. Not by saying I defy someone to do it. You DARE me to DEFY you. Show me a 200 year old phrase if it’s so common. Or a 100 year old one. Or a 10 year old one
>I defy you to agitate any fellow with a full stomach. >William Cobbett >1817
Fricking moron
11 months ago
Anonymous
>he’s English English
Kek explains the tardation about guns
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Find me an example of the phrase being used >No wait not like that!!!!
Actual moron.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>A data set
What data set? >either it works or it doesn’t
A semi can tow 80,000lbs and a 1/2 ton pickup tows 10,000lbs. They can both tow so it’s the same right? Both get the job done right?
This is what an actual birdshot injury from close distance looks like. Judging by the width of the spread (approximately 20 cm / 7 inches) she was shot at anything from 5 to 10 yards depending on the choke that was used.
In this the chud shoots her at what... 3 yards? Yeah, it was either a partial hit or the shell didn't have powder in it.
>shell didn't have powder in it.
A shell without powder in it wouldn’t even get those pellets to enough velocity to get through her clothes.
Just because you stopped responding to people and act like you are a new person doesn’t mean you can say the same shit over and over and make it true. You have literally no proof of what you claim. And it’s an absurd claim.
I literally just posted the proof you moron. If she actually got hit full on in the chest with properly working birdshot at 3 yards, she wouldn't have walked away on her own.
11 months ago
Anonymous
That’s not proof. Some examples of it working doesn’t mean other examples of it not don’t exist. Like someone else posted, only 17% of shootings with birdshot incapacitated with one hit. Her walking away actually the norm not the exception.
If it only goes 4” into gel, where calibration BBs go 2.7”, then it’s not a stretch to say she survived 8 shot. What round is used for your pictures? What shot size and velocity? Is it more than one shot? That’s all relevant
The fat chick took a dud, as for the second one >the hood
should tell you all you need there.
Birdshot doesn't exclusively mean 7.5 Walmart special. BB and up will make a big fricking mess while still minimising wall penetration.
You have a brick outer layer surrounding your house, not including a solid wood or solid rebar reinforced brick wall, thinking about shooting birds hot as someone is moronic, just go with 000 buck if your afraid since it will always penetrate
>You have a brick outer layer surrounding your house
Americans generally don't.
Look at the frickin' video moron. His gun failed to fire entirely, twice. His shit was not in good order.
By this logic .303 is entirely survivable at point blank because you bought a box of surplus ammo that's been passed around the third world for a hundred years.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>FTF TWICE
You are still making shit up. Can you not? Timestamp when he "failed to fire".
11 months ago
Anonymous
Here you go you giant fricking moron.
https://case-law.vlex.com/vid/state-v-ybarra-no-895193538
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Ybarra then turned to Sarah Williams. Williams was walking down the stairs into the lobby when Ybarra shot her in the chest.
Doesn't say anything about shooting her with a dud.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Ybarra then turned to Sarah Williams. Williams was walking down the stairs into the lobby when Ybarra shot her in the chest. Ybarra began reloading the shotgun as Cooper-Roth fled the building.
Damn you really showed us by having something describe exactly what happened on video.
11 months ago
Anonymous
you literally just posted evidence against yourself. what a fricking worthless moron you are. go put some birdshot under your chin you braindead homosexual Black person.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>His gun failed to fire entirely, twice
When? Time stamp now. You are lying when we can all see what happened. It’s pathetic albeit numerous.
>Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman, the guy would have dumped his whole Glock mag in my general direction. >Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman
...what?
>There's a webm and a video I've seen that prevent me from ever relying on birdshot to save me or my families life. One was a webm of a School shooter with a shotgun. He literally aimed at a fat tumblerina, shot her POINT BLANK in the chest, and she stood there frozen for a second in disbelief, ran and survived
He either missed or the shell was loaded with nothing but the primer. You have to be a fricking idiot to think that birdshot at less than 10 feet of distance would just scare someone.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/ >Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>He either missed or the shell was loaded with nothing but the primer
You can repeat this 100 times and it doesn’t make it true. >10 feet of distance would just scare someone.
He didn’t miss, she was hit. Why would any shell be only loaded with the primer but a full shotcup? Come on.
If you bothered to read people pointing out how you can’t take the truth she was hit by birdshot, you’d see she was taken to the hospital in critical condition and was in surgery for 5 hours. Birdshot is lethal. It’s also likely to not be an immediate stopper.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/ >Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>spu >tumblerina
SPU is so conservative that they expel students and nullify their credits for having sex. Ain't no fricking tumblerinas at SPU.
Having to think about whether a bullet might penetrate your walls and accidentally kill a neighbour is such an american thing.
A nation that has given humanity deep insights like stick-frame housing and foam-as-a-structural-materilal.
Houses with proper brick walls stay cooler in summer, you dumb Black person. At least id you dont have a fricking moronic housemmate who opens all the windows and doors as soon as it gets a little bit warm and only succeeds in letting in all the much hotter air outside.
That's a fricking lie.
I stayed in britbongistan last summer for a month, staying in tons of old brick pubs and the frickers were SWEALTERING. Im from the southwest so I'm used to frickhot temps, and it wasnt so bad outside, but jesus frick those buildings retain heat like a motherfricker.
>Be European >No special architectural knowledge >Be convinced that 360 million people are complete idiots because they do stuff which was not common practice 300 years ago.
Unless you live in a mansion birdshot is going to kill anybody not wearing body armor inside your house that you have a direct line on. If they do have body armor just aim for the head and turn them into Helen Keller. >I'm not worried about over-penetration.
Think about how everybody in your house responds to stress and panic. Unless you live in a house full of robots that will automatically take cover when they hear a suspicious noise instead of freeze up or go to investigate, you need to worry about over-penetration. >But it won't kill them instantly
Maybe not, but they are sure as hell out of the fight for that day. As good as fixing a thief is, your objective is to A. make sure all your people come out okay and B. protect your property.
I recall seeing a school shooter video where a guy blasts a woman straight in the chest, point blank, with birdshot. She didn't even react, just froze in terror (she survived the injury as well) and the shooter was overpowered while reloading by another dude
Before idiots start calling it a miss:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/ >Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>you need to worry about over-penetration.
Why? Show me one example of a self defense shooting where the defender had pass throughs and hit their family members or neighbors. Just one.
While birdshot can be lethal, buckshot will be lethal. Things like #4 buck don’t overpenetrate much either. Things like this can happen. Some random college chick taking a load of birdshot to the chest and she walks it off and lives. That wouldn’t happen with 00. Why take the chance?
>Why? Show me one example of a self defense shooting where the defender had pass throughs and hit their family members or neighbors. Just one.
I've tried to find a single example of this myself and found nothing. The closest was that cop missing his target with an AR and killing a girl in a fitting room from a couple years back. As far as home defense goes, muh overpenetration is a giant meme.
Exactly. Cops miss 85-90% of their shots and bystanders are rarely ever hit. That’s not even a pass through, that’s a completely live and unimpeded round that still doesn’t hit anyone. And they are in public most of the time too.
Bro. Over-pen is a LEO consideration for when you have three cops mag dumping at a bad guy. >60 rounds flying around
You blasting a meth fiend in a hallway is not one of those situations because it's probably with a Glock, it's probably within 5 yards and it's unlikely to be all 17 rounds and even if it is, it's going to be multiple layers of drywall and probably a street of allyway or yard and the a couple more layers of drywall between you and the next person >Probably a whole load of cladding too
So yeah, unless your go to is a rifle round it's not an issue.
>unless your go to is a rifle round it's not an issue.
It’s still not an issue. 5.56 won’t penetrate more walls than 9mm. It tumbles and will lose velocity. Unless you use a .375 H&H with solids you’ll be fine. If you do use something like that, it’s very based even if a bad choice.
Why would you? Do you seriously want the guy you shot to be sitting in court testifying against you? Why not start with a nerf gun then escalate up from there?
Exactly. If you have to use a firearm on someone in a defensive scenario you should always aim (no pun intended) to kill them. Wounding them and having them survive adds way too much in the way of complications.
>itt thread morons don’t understand that hundreds of tiny pellets have independent flight and terminal characteristics compared to a solid chunk of lead
If what you said was true, why are heavier birdshots used for longer ranges? Why do slugs travel further? Just because birdshot can, and is likely to be lethal, at HD ranges doesn’t make it a good choice. A box of buckshot is like $5 bucks. Don’t be such a miser.
At HD ranges number 4 birdshot is probably fine, its not ideal but it will get the job done. Birdshot is all that is allowed in some places so you use what you have, you could easily roll your own RB slug or buck but you have to explain it in court and if you have a corpse or two then it may not be good to have made illegal ammunition.
Where you can use 00/000/slug then just go for it,
>At HD ranges number 4 birdshot is probably fine, its not ideal but it will get the job done.
I don’t disagree but why settle for probably fine?
>Birdshot is all that is allowed in some places so you use what you have
Like where? Where can you use only own birdshot AND are legally ok using a gun for self defense. Some euros have weird laws but that’s a rare situation.
Either way it’s irrelevant. If that’s the case then the question is “is a gun better than no gun” to which the answer is no shit. The question in this thread is about bird vs buck or slugs.
I would trust BB to drop someone, I had a couple of shells to mess around with once and they would be nasty hitting someone in the chest. Large quantity with decent mass.
#4 buck is perfectly adequate maybe even optimal for home defence and .2 inch T shot is still 85% the mass while probably coming in a hotter (magnum) and heavier (less air between the pellets) load. People conflate birdshot with the lighter more common loads but something that can take out a big bird at range is probably well enough for a person up close, within reason.
Do the T and B and F even stand for anything by the way? I'm guessing there's some sorta historical thing like how shot towers started the shot size numberings.
You're more than welcome to. You don't actually have to advocate for the use of a weapon instead of everything else in the universe to point out what it does accurately. It's like if you said you couldn't kill someone with an axe because you'd seen a video of someone walking off an axe blow.
When 300 win mag anon is on break we have to hire another autist to post about things guaranteed to start arguments and then keep them going so the board has some semblance of firearms discussion. >Pic rel, the hiring process
"I would totally do this thing I've never done before under extreme duress because...I just will, ok!"
I would not use birdshot for home defense, 00 and slugs.
The only time you'll get 5 consecutive shots of birdshot on a human being where the shot does what you claim it does, is if you have a semi auto shotgun that has a fast action, tuned to birdshot, and the guy is point blank range.
If you're using a pump or slower semi-auto you won't get those shots off quickly, and you're relying on 5 trigger pulls to help you stop a bad guy when most shotguns start getting empty after 5 rounds. At longer distances you'll simply give the guy a bunch of tiny penetrations in his epidermis that are unlikely to even go deep into the muscle, if at all.
Also to add two more to the list, Dick Cheney shooting someone in the face with a shotgun by accident during a hunt (the old white guy survived), and another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Yes it's true 22lr and 45acp have failed to incapacitate. Unless they hit a vital, specifically the CNS, it won't stop an attacker. However we're talking about pistols, something that's small and meant to be a compromise. A shotgun isn't a small compromise or at least it shouldn't be when using the appropriate ammo, and if you're using buckshot you have almost the equivalent of 8 to 12 pistol caliber carbine sized projectiles flying at +p+ velocities. That's a HUGE difference from one simple 45acp. You shouldn't need multiple trigger pulls to stop an attacker with a shotgun, as you would with a small compromise weapon like a pistol.
Obviously I'm not going to deny that birdshot can kill or dissuade attackers. It's just not ideal and for you to argue it's ideal is silly. You're making a huge compromise for whatever reason. And hell, that's okay too because we do have our reasons, but it doesnt make it any less of a compromise. I use a PCC for home defense and not an AR for my own comprise reazn
>The only time you'll get 5 consecutive shots of birdshot on a human being where the shot does what you claim it does, is if you have a semi auto shotgun that has a fast action, tuned to birdshot, and the guy is point blank range.
Nonsense there's a video that's been passed around here countless times of a fatass cop slowly plinking away at some crackhead with his pistol at a speed any pump action could match.
and that's if having a fist sized hole in the chest does absolutely nothing to slow their advance, of course.
> Dick Cheney shooting someone in the face with a shotgun by accident during a hunt (the old white guy survived) >While Whittington was searching for a downed bird, Cheney, Willeford, and a guide walked towards another covey about 100 yards (91 m) away. Whittington approached within 30 or 40 yards (27 or 37 m) of the shooters, at which point a single bird flew up, around, and behind Cheney in the direction of Whittington. Cheney shot at the bird and hit Whittington.
Why do you have to lie?
>, and another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Show me the injury photo or the medical report.
>Nonsense there's a video that's been passed around here countless times of a fatass cop slowly plinking away at some crackhead with his pistol at a speed any pump action could match.
That correlates to someone attacking you in your home how? Was the crackhead armed? Was he advancing on the cop? Did he start at 3-5 yards away?
>Yes it's true 22lr and 45acp have failed to incapacitate. Unless they hit a vital, specifically the CNS, it won't stop an attacker. However we're talking about pistols, something that's small and meant to be a compromise. A shotgun isn't a small compromise or at least it shouldn't be when using the appropriate ammo, and if you're using buckshot you have almost the equivalent of 8 to 12 pistol caliber carbine sized projectiles flying at +p+ velocities. That's a HUGE difference from one simple 45acp. You shouldn't need multiple trigger pulls to stop an attacker with a shotgun, as you would with a small compromise weapon like a pistol.
In other words we agree that referring to Birdshot as ineffective based on the idea (not statistic, just idea) that it will regularly fail to incapacitate in one shot while not believing that pistols are ineffective when they regularly fail to incapacitate with one shot is moronic.
>it's just not ideal and for you to argue it's ideal is silly
That would be silly if I had ever done it before in my life. Luckily, I haven't.
You're just not intellectually honest enough to accept any argument anyone gives you. If they're not willing to spoonfeed you all the details of the incident you automatically assume it's a lie, when someone shows you a detailed report of the woman nearly dying an hour after the shot to the chest... you refuse to accept it wasn't a dud but a normal birdshot load that simply wasn't enough to even make a fat tumblerina blink, you're also unwilling to do a quick Google search (unless its to disprove something as in the case of the Dick Cheney incident, how convenient lol). You're also a coward because it's pretty obvious that you want to make us believe that birdshot is just as good as anything else (that's why you're here arguing in the first place) when it's quite obvious that it's actually way WAY low on the totem pole of cartridges/shells you'd want to use for self defense. You're not even willing to stand behind your argument . If you're that much of a pussy to stand behind your argument on an anonymous forum no less, you have zero merit past your feminine emotions. It's okay anon, go ahead and use birdshot which is worse than a 9mm, on a long arm sized platform noless LOL
>You're also a coward because it's pretty obvious that you want to make us believe that birdshot is just as good as anything else >If you dont restructure your argument to conform to my strawman you're a coward
You're moronic.
>Birdshot as ineffective based on the idea (not statistic, just idea) that it will regularly fail to incapacitate in one shot while not believing that pistols are ineffective when they regularly fail to incapacitate with one shot is moronic.
No, you comparing the two directly is moron. Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols is an old ass saying for a reason. Long guns are bigger and more powerful for a reason. Pistol are small and they lose the trade off of effectiveness for carryability and concealability.
A normal 9mm has about 4.5lbs of recoil energy in a full sized pistol weighing 2lbs. A shotgun is many times the overall size weighs 7.5-8.5lbs and has between 17-20lbs of recoil energy with just 1oz at 1200 fps. Why would you expect something 4x the weight with more than 4x the recoil and 4x the energy delivered to act the same? If they perform the same that’s an awful tradeoff
>another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Source? Seems like an interesting one and I haven’t heard of it before.
Also I agree with everything you said, but the dick cheney story isn’t really that good of an example. It happened at 15-20+ yards away. He was old and hit in the face but the distance did a lot to save him.
>Is it ever appropriate to load birdshot for home defense?
If it is literally the only ammo you have I guess it's appropriate in that case. I'd rather have almost anything else though.
Just use slugs or drop the shotgun for literally anything in a sizable caliber and use hollow point.
Further more mag dump, most self defense situation a especially those in your own home are going to happen at functionally 0 distance and are going to to be quick and brutal
What a strange and weak argument from the guy. Ok, big guys shouldn't have guns. Thankfully I'm a small guy so I'm allowed to blast any attackers to kingdom come with my street sweeper
Has there ever been a single documented case of someone shooting at an intruder and the projectile passing through a wall/door/whatever and injuring or killing someone on the other side? Because I've never been able to find one.
>i havent shot in 20 years
strike one >i would a shotgun with birdshot when stopping power matters
strike two >i should shoot to maim intentionally
strike 3 >or i would just use a baseball bat
wat
You have a brick outer layer surrounding your house, not including a solid wood or solid rebar reinforced brick wall, thinking about shooting birds hot as someone is moronic, just go with 000 buck if your afraid since it will always penetrate
No you stupid dumbfrick for a Black person, why the frick would you load birdshot for a self defense gun you fricking pussy, that is the stupidest fricking shit i have ever heard in my life, you basically are asking to die.
Mite b ok for skinny crackheads too. If you're facing a fat attacker like the girl in
This is the shooting you're thinking of:
Before idiots start calling it a miss:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/ >Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>Is it ever appropriate to load birdshot for home defense?
Yes some places ban slugs and buckshot so if you want to be OK in court best use birdshot. It creates horrific wounds.
>It was a dud round
Prove it >there was barely even any blood.
Blood doesn’t work like the movies dipshit. Unless you have pictures of her afterwards you can’t say this and mean anything. She’s on camera for about 12 seconds after getting shot and turns her chest away from the camera. Her clothes would absorb blood.
>I defy anyone to show me birdshot failing to drop someone with five hits to the body.
I defy anyone to show me .22LR failing to drop someone with five hits to the body. Is .22 a good HD choice? Just because something can kill doesn’t mean it’s your best choice. Do you use FMJs in your carry pistol? If you’re hunting deer with a .308 would you use FMJs? Furthermore, thinking you’re going to shoot an invader 5 times with a shotgun in the first place is moronic. You’re using most of your capacity for one person (which would be fine 90% of the time) and you’d make a giant mess of your house. In the low low chance their is a 2nd threat you’re too focused on the first.
paul harrel did some tests on the subject came the conclusion bird shot will go through 2-3 layers of dry wall and it still good enough to incapacitate a attacker at 10-15 feet normal buck penetrates a ton of dry wall and will exit your house
How does your thread prove it was a dud? It doesn’t. Why the frick would I go to /b/ and not here. More importantly pictures of birdshot wounds have nothing to do with most my posts. You can’t do logical reasoning so I’m not surprised you sperged out again >thread died because of muh proof
Or….you posted at 11:53 and people were sleeping because we have jobs. I started posted while eating breakfast and getting ready.
Yeah birdshot will frick people good even at a distance, even if it doesn't kill or permanently injured the target.
This was at about 30 yards. The cop that got hit was incapacitated and spitting up bb's, but the only permanent injury was mild vision loss in one eye. At close range it only gets worse.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/bird-shot-for-self-defense
No thanks, if I'm absolutely forced to use a shotgun instead of a rifle for whatever reason I'll stick with buckshot.
I'm not even sure what this schizo is arguing anymore. I sure as shit wouldn't gamble on an attacker being at near contact distance and hoping for the best when there's a whole world of vastly superior options available.
The point is that morons keep arguing that birdshot is the equivalent of sneezing on someone based on literally one video that said morons interpret as birdshot failing to do anything against a girl rather than realizing that either the shooter in the video partially missed her, or the shell he fired was faulty.
Literally all other evidence on the effectiveness of birdshot at close range say that you'll get fricked up with you get hit, but morons decide to ignore it all since this one video exists.
>is the equivalent of sneezing on someone
Literally no one has said that and even all the people shitting on birdshot say it can be lethal, but other options are better. Go ahead, show me posts that say otherwise. > Literally all other evidence on the effectiveness of birdshot at close range
Ahem
https://i.imgur.com/4aulXhU.jpg
That’s not proof. Some examples of it working doesn’t mean other examples of it not don’t exist. Like someone else posted, only 17% of shootings with birdshot incapacitated with one hit. Her walking away actually the norm not the exception.
If it only goes 4” into gel, where calibration BBs go 2.7”, then it’s not a stretch to say she survived 8 shot. What round is used for your pictures? What shot size and velocity? Is it more than one shot? That’s all relevant
I don't remember how far it was, but there were two cops in Oregon or some dump up north that got into a shootout with a schitzo and both got shot in the face with birdshot after they both tried to peek the same corner, and they both lived.
we're talking easily 10-20 yards in that scenario, double if not triple the FBI stated distance of the average self defense shooting. at 50 yards no8 birdshot is having trouble breaking skin and clothing, and has a pattern of about 4 feet or more.
here's a school shooter putting a load of birdshot into a chick from ≈10' away, not only did she live she turned around and walked away while a guy lunged at the shooter
Maybe some of the larger shot-sizes. They can be very lethal at closer ranges while quickly losing effectiveness on bystanders at further ranges.
I wouldn't go smaller than #4 though. The smaller shot sizes lose effectiveness way too quickly to be reliable in varied defensive situations. There are many instances out there of people being shot by smaller shot sizes and only being a little bloodied or maimed.
I am a small guy and I'd take fighting someone who thinks not being a small guy is what matters in a fight than another small guy with more training, any day of the week.
There was a video recently of some drugged out butthole who shot two cops with birdshot. Instantly took them both out of the fight; one lost an eye.
Unless you're attacked by someone high as a kite unable to feel pain, it'll put the fight out of someone. It also wont destroy your fricking home in the process.
Yes, defence from birds
Birdshot ain't stopping a methed up ostrich, anon.
The neck is a surprisingly delicate target. Aim for that.
>that webm
>RR OOG RIP OOG HEAD OFF!
goddamn aqua teens living rent-free in my head
Engagement ranges under 5 yards when you absolutely can not afford to have anything going through walls. It's still quite deadly, but not as risky to your nice things/family/neighbors as slugs or buckshot.
if you dont want to risk overpenetration why not just go for explosive slugs?
this better be bait you moron
It's not a destructive device if the explosive is less than 7 grams, innit?
>future scientist breaks into my house
>he's armed and dangerous
>thankfully I have my 12 gauge loaded with Jack's special DOUBLE EXPLOSIVE LOADS
>he looks up at me buck naked with nothing but my headlight pointed at him
>before he can drop teh tv and raise his gun I fire
>My tv is gone, my cat is gone, my ears are bleeding
>the entire room is covered in charred scientist embers
>and all that's left of the upstanding gentleman is a pair of legs still soiling themselves and a hair comb
>I now have to spend 48 hours on cleaning up the mess after forensics gets through
>at least it didn't over penetrate :^)
Where do you live, the Paris Metro?
>OP Metro enjoyer
You're alright, anon
summer sure came early, huh?
>This drooling newbie discovered the summer meme
Really is summer isn't it
If they're not armed it would be pretty fun to corner them and mag(or whatever)dump them with birdshot, see what happens, and then execute them if you have to. Just make sure to fear for your life the entire time.
based
HOLY SHIT
There's a webm and a video I've seen that prevent me from ever relying on birdshot to save me or my families life. One was a webm of a School shooter with a shotgun. He literally aimed at a fat tumblerina, shot her POINT BLANK in the chest, and she stood there frozen for a second in disbelief, ran and survived. If it can't stop a modern college woman with a point blank shot to the chest, I cannot reliably stop a man. Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman, the guy would have dumped his whole Glock mag in my general direction.
Second is the video of a mini-documentary of a wigger who went to the hood and got shot twice point blank range IN THE HEAD. He now wears a hat all the time to hide the giant bald spot from the skin graft. He wasn't even close to dying, all the birdshot bounced off his skull. He could run and call 911. Again, had he HAD a gun, he could have shot his Black person assailant despite two birdshot blasts to the head.
Yes there are instances of birdshot killing people, but they've mostly been execution style where someone will walk up next to someone and press the barrel right on the person they're about to kill. Most shootings happen at 3 yards so I'd expect even worse results than what happened to the fat chick or wigger in those videos I mentioned. My family and my life is too valuable to rely on something made to kill birds that weigh only a few ounces.
Same thing would apply to those ultralight plastic handgun bullets that some morons have been jerking off over lately.
>the guy would have dumped his whole Glock mag in my general direction.
>my
something you want to tell us, Anon?
This is the shooting you're thinking of:
Before idiots start calling it a miss:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/
>Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
Not a miss, but flatly inconsistent with every birdshot injury I've ever seen or read about in detail. You could split a pig's head open at that range.
>Direct evidence
>Reject it because it doesn't fit your personal narrative of ineffective birdshot.
>You're so smart tourist-anon, you must be an awesome reddit and discord mod! Congratulations!
>Direct evidence
Show me the medical report. You don't know the shot size, the powder load, or whether there was any malfunction, in other words you don't know anything.
>Reject it because it doesn't fit your personal
experience, my personal experience and the loads of examples I've seen and the insistence of Paul Harrel, who's a champion level competition shooter, prolific hunter, military firearms instructor, and has actually killed several people in "self defense" over the years.
See also Jerry Miculek, who insists birdshot is effective at close range. He gets more firearms experience in a month than you'll have in your entire life.
Show the medical reports backing your "experience" up. Not an appeal to bigger and better names than yours, show us your credentials and direct evidence contrary to the video evidence you're rejecting. We all know it won't happen though you plebbit troon tourist.
>Post baseless fuddlore and impossible to examine "examples" that contradict what the most respected experts say
>"give me the necessary information to assess your example."
>"no."
>Dilator confirmed. Btfo and will never be accepted as a women.
You literally made the claim that it was a “dud,” whatever the frick that is. Now post your guns and a timestamp you Black person
>You literally made the claim that it was a “dud,
Specifically because of it's inconsistency with many other examples.
>whatever the frick that is
... You know ammunition malfunctions right?
>How likely is it to have ammo be a dud?
Depends on the brand and how the moron stored his ammunition. More likely for a moron to have an ammunition malfunction of any kind.
>Now how likely is it for ammo to be a dud during a mass shooting?
... at least as likely as it is to happen at any other time? Why would a mass shooting make a bum round less likely?
>We see the shotgun go bang and we know the fatty was hit.
The injury does not seem consistent with the injuries I've seen and studied.
Who has ever been killed by someone after shooting them with birdshot at close range? Name one person.
Is this consistent with your "research" you fricking moronic Black person
Nine minutes? give a timestamp at least moron.
https://boards.PrepHole/b/thread/900950140#top
Well everything went real fricking quiet real fricking fast huh.
Thread with pictures of birdshot injuries and deaths up on /b/ right now.
How likely is it to have ammo be a dud? Now how likely is it for ammo to be a dud during a mass shooting? Chances are not that great. We see the shotgun go bang and we know the fatty was hit. You are pulling shit out of your ass and saying it is a dud.
>I slammed a door on my hand and broke my fingers.
>DID YOU GET THEM XRAYED?!?! YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WERE BROKEN!!!!!
>I can see my bone sticking out of my skin.
You are the moron in the middle one.
>Post baseless claim and impossible to examine opinion that contradict what the most respected experts say
Wow you really sold me on that being a dud.
Since you only care what famous people say. What are Clint Smith’s or Larry Vickers’s opinions on using birdshot over buckshot?
>Show me the medical report.
Show me any supporting your side. Show me anything contradicting this video.
>You don't know the shot size, the powder load, or whether there was any malfunction, in other words you don't know anything.
Correct, you don’t know anything either.
You’re asking people to not believe a video you can see with their own eyes why not listening a single reason or giving any evidence to why they should. Do you realize how dumb that is? Never mind, of course you don’t.
>See also Jerry Miculek, who insists birdshot is effective at close range
Something can both be effective while being substantially less effective than an alternative at the same time. A Vespa is an effective way to move from point A to point B but a regular car is almost always better.
I love Paul but his meat target tests aren’t high quality evidence. You can push though a lot of meat with your fingers. You certainly can with just a dinner/bread knife. You can’t do that to live tissue.
You fricking moron birds are frail as shit their bones have to be light just fo fly so they're not very durable. The tumblrina in that video has a protective layer of fat and bone thats why birdshot did not have enough stopping power
Birdshot injury I've seen on humans anon.
On humans.
No it was a dud farted out by the primer or whatever. The guy had previously shot duds, he'd picked up a bag of random old shells out of his dad's garage or something.
>dud farted out by the primer or whatever
Proof?
>The guy had previously shot duds
Proof? Certainly there is more video or mention of that in the police report if he shot elsewhere on campus.
>he'd picked up a bag of random old shells out of his dad's garage or something.
Proof? Also watch this from your expert himself
%3D%3D
>but flatly inconsistent with every birdshot injury I've ever seen
>Reeeee it doesn’t fit my narrative so I’ll ignore it
>the video has to be fake
You are no better than the anti-birdshot crowd you accuse of ignoring photos of people killed with birdshot
>Reeeee it doesn’t fit my narrative so I’ll ignore it
A data set is not a "Narrative" you stupid Black person.
>No, you comparing the two directly is moron.
Either multiple hits is acceptable for self defense or it isn't.
>No, you comparing the two directly is moron.
>Either multiple hits is acceptable for self defense or it isn't.
meant for
Cherry picked images from some homosexual's gore folder aren't a data set.
Ah so my dozen cases are "cherry picking" and your one case is a trend, a statistic, a repeatable fact, got it.
>They can both tow so it’s the same right?
Is 45 ACP insufficient for self defense?
>Is 45 ACP insufficient for self defense?
Compared to rifles or shotguns with the proper load, yes. Nice goalpost moving from needing 1-2 shots to 5 or more like you said. I never said it was insufficient and you are strawmanning.
>Compared to rifles or shotguns with the proper load, yes.
There's no "compared". 45ACP is either sufficient or it isn't. No amount of better options make 45ACP less sufficient, it's an objective value not a relative one.
>Nice goalpost moving from needing 1-2 shots to 5 or more like you said.
It's not a goalpost shift at all you dumb Black person. From the very beginning I've been clear
>There's no statistical evidence you're likely to need to hit twice at close range with birdshot to incapacitate
>Even if there was, that would still put it on the same scale as pistol statistics.
Discussion of OUTLIERS is a different topic you troon.
>Birdshot bad because of one failure after one hit
>Pistols not bad because of many failures after many hits
>I never said it was insufficient and you are strawmanning.
Nice goalpost shift, the entire conversation is about, and only about, whether Birdshot is sufficient to reliably incapacitate at close range.
Black person you literally said earlier you’d shoot them 5 times with birdshot and said you dare anyone stand up to that. Myself and others called you moronic for acting like taking 5 shots to drop someone is good. You compared long guns to pistols which is laughable. You are wrong and won’t admit it because you’re emotionally invested.
>Black person you literally said earlier you’d shoot them 5 times with birdshot and said you dare anyone stand up to that.
Wrong, I said almost everyone agrees pistols in conventional calibers are very lethal and sufficient for self defense, despite outliers where an assailant or victim takes five shots before dropping.
No you said
>>I defy anyone to show me birdshot failing to drop someone with five hits to the body.
And I said
>I defy anyone to show me .22LR failing to drop someone with five hits to the body. Is .22 a good HD choice? Just because something can kill doesn’t mean it’s your best choice.
Also you meant dare not defy but whatever
You started equating .45 and 12ga after you said shooting someone 5 times means it’s good.
>No you said
>QUOTE the previous fricking sentence
>We've all seen videos of people getting shot half a dozen times with a pistol before they drop, yet no one seriously contends that pistols are useless for self defense.
You're a dumb lying sack of shit. I was comparing extreme cases that don't represent the norm.
>Also you meant dare not defy but whatever
"I defy someone to do X" has been a common phrase in English for at least two hundred years you stupid ape.
>You started equating .45 and 12ga after you said shooting someone 5 times means it’s good.
Wrong, I pointed out that thinking .45 is sufficient when it has extreme outliers such as taking half a dozen shots to incapacitate but not applying that standard to birdshot is ludicrous. We're being expected to declare birdshot at close range insufficient to immediately incapacitate because someone was shot with God knows what weight of shot, size, powder load, etc and didn't fall over, in the face of stacks of fist sized holes blown into people's bodies that killed them outright, but we're not expected to throw out every pistol because once in a blue moon someone fights through multiple hits from a .45.
It's hypocrisy.
You know what outlier means right?
>doubling down on what was an innocent typo
Kek. I defy you by doing x. Not by saying I defy someone to do it. You DARE me to DEFY you. Show me a 200 year old phrase if it’s so common. Or a 100 year old one. Or a 10 year old one
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjgpZiD-cb_AhXDEVkFHdQpBVwQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.macmillandictionary.com%2Fus%2Fdictionary%2Famerican%2Fdefy-someone-to-do-something&usg=AOvVaw36gDt53vzYzr7HFdEGmjY5
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/defy
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/defy-to-do
Oh you want a quote?
>I defy you to agitate any fellow with a full stomach.
>William Cobbett
>1817
Fricking moron
>he’s English English
Kek explains the tardation about guns
>Find me an example of the phrase being used
>No wait not like that!!!!
Actual moron.
>A data set
What data set?
>either it works or it doesn’t
A semi can tow 80,000lbs and a 1/2 ton pickup tows 10,000lbs. They can both tow so it’s the same right? Both get the job done right?
This is what an actual birdshot injury from close distance looks like. Judging by the width of the spread (approximately 20 cm / 7 inches) she was shot at anything from 5 to 10 yards depending on the choke that was used.
In this the chud shoots her at what... 3 yards? Yeah, it was either a partial hit or the shell didn't have powder in it.
>shell didn't have powder in it.
A shell without powder in it wouldn’t even get those pellets to enough velocity to get through her clothes.
Just because you stopped responding to people and act like you are a new person doesn’t mean you can say the same shit over and over and make it true. You have literally no proof of what you claim. And it’s an absurd claim.
I literally just posted the proof you moron. If she actually got hit full on in the chest with properly working birdshot at 3 yards, she wouldn't have walked away on her own.
That’s not proof. Some examples of it working doesn’t mean other examples of it not don’t exist. Like someone else posted, only 17% of shootings with birdshot incapacitated with one hit. Her walking away actually the norm not the exception.
If it only goes 4” into gel, where calibration BBs go 2.7”, then it’s not a stretch to say she survived 8 shot. What round is used for your pictures? What shot size and velocity? Is it more than one shot? That’s all relevant
The fat chick took a dud, as for the second one
>the hood
should tell you all you need there.
Birdshot doesn't exclusively mean 7.5 Walmart special. BB and up will make a big fricking mess while still minimising wall penetration.
>You have a brick outer layer surrounding your house
Americans generally don't.
>The fat chick took a dud
Proof?
Look at the frickin' video moron.
Proof?
Look at the frickin' video moron. His gun failed to fire entirely, twice. His shit was not in good order.
By this logic .303 is entirely survivable at point blank because you bought a box of surplus ammo that's been passed around the third world for a hundred years.
>FTF TWICE
You are still making shit up. Can you not? Timestamp when he "failed to fire".
Here you go you giant fricking moron.
https://case-law.vlex.com/vid/state-v-ybarra-no-895193538
>Ybarra then turned to Sarah Williams. Williams was walking down the stairs into the lobby when Ybarra shot her in the chest.
Doesn't say anything about shooting her with a dud.
>Ybarra then turned to Sarah Williams. Williams was walking down the stairs into the lobby when Ybarra shot her in the chest. Ybarra began reloading the shotgun as Cooper-Roth fled the building.
Damn you really showed us by having something describe exactly what happened on video.
you literally just posted evidence against yourself. what a fricking worthless moron you are. go put some birdshot under your chin you braindead homosexual Black person.
>His gun failed to fire entirely, twice
When? Time stamp now. You are lying when we can all see what happened. It’s pathetic albeit numerous.
And what in the video shows it’s a dud? Be specific.
>Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman, the guy would have dumped his whole Glock mag in my general direction.
>Had that been a man armed with a pistol instead of a fat woman
...what?
>not carrying a tactiical fat woman for self-defense
ngmi
CRISTIANO
R
I
S
T
I
A
N
O
>There's a webm and a video I've seen that prevent me from ever relying on birdshot to save me or my families life. One was a webm of a School shooter with a shotgun. He literally aimed at a fat tumblerina, shot her POINT BLANK in the chest, and she stood there frozen for a second in disbelief, ran and survived
He either missed or the shell was loaded with nothing but the primer. You have to be a fricking idiot to think that birdshot at less than 10 feet of distance would just scare someone.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spu-shooting-victim-sarah-williams-leaves-hospital/
>Williams was critically injured and taken to Harborview Medical Center, where she underwent a five-hour surgery. She was transferred out of the intensive-care unit last weekend, according to hospital spokeswoman Susan Gregg.
>He either missed or the shell was loaded with nothing but the primer
You can repeat this 100 times and it doesn’t make it true.
>10 feet of distance would just scare someone.
He didn’t miss, she was hit. Why would any shell be only loaded with the primer but a full shotcup? Come on.
If you bothered to read people pointing out how you can’t take the truth she was hit by birdshot, you’d see she was taken to the hospital in critical condition and was in surgery for 5 hours. Birdshot is lethal. It’s also likely to not be an immediate stopper.
>she was hit by birdshot
Gauge and load?
12 gauge and the police never said exact size. Those are never reported. Why?
Those can make a difference of roughly an order of magnitude if not more in terminal effect.
Oh agreed. I thought you were the “it’s a dud” idiot, not genuinely asking.
>spu
>tumblerina
SPU is so conservative that they expel students and nullify their credits for having sex. Ain't no fricking tumblerinas at SPU.
Yes.
The day of the pigeon will come.
Having to think about whether a bullet might penetrate your walls and accidentally kill a neighbour is such an american thing.
A nation that has given humanity deep insights like stick-frame housing and foam-as-a-structural-materilal.
>be britbong
>its hotter than 80 degrees outside
>die because you live in a ceramic oven
Houses with proper brick walls stay cooler in summer, you dumb Black person. At least id you dont have a fricking moronic housemmate who opens all the windows and doors as soon as it gets a little bit warm and only succeeds in letting in all the much hotter air outside.
That's a fricking lie.
I stayed in britbongistan last summer for a month, staying in tons of old brick pubs and the frickers were SWEALTERING. Im from the southwest so I'm used to frickhot temps, and it wasnt so bad outside, but jesus frick those buildings retain heat like a motherfricker.
>t. Never lived in a brick house.
Shouldn't you be dying in an apartment fire or getting stabbed or working your whole life without ever owning any land?
i own land dumbass, i also have a house made of brick and mortar.
>Be European
>No special architectural knowledge
>Be convinced that 360 million people are complete idiots because they do stuff which was not common practice 300 years ago.
That colonial spirit is still strong.
Unless you live in a mansion birdshot is going to kill anybody not wearing body armor inside your house that you have a direct line on. If they do have body armor just aim for the head and turn them into Helen Keller.
>I'm not worried about over-penetration.
Think about how everybody in your house responds to stress and panic. Unless you live in a house full of robots that will automatically take cover when they hear a suspicious noise instead of freeze up or go to investigate, you need to worry about over-penetration.
>But it won't kill them instantly
Maybe not, but they are sure as hell out of the fight for that day. As good as fixing a thief is, your objective is to A. make sure all your people come out okay and B. protect your property.
bump
I recall seeing a school shooter video where a guy blasts a woman straight in the chest, point blank, with birdshot. She didn't even react, just froze in terror (she survived the injury as well) and the shooter was overpowered while reloading by another dude
It's the video in this post
>you need to worry about over-penetration.
Why? Show me one example of a self defense shooting where the defender had pass throughs and hit their family members or neighbors. Just one.
While birdshot can be lethal, buckshot will be lethal. Things like #4 buck don’t overpenetrate much either. Things like this can happen. Some random college chick taking a load of birdshot to the chest and she walks it off and lives. That wouldn’t happen with 00. Why take the chance?
%3D
>Why? Show me one example of a self defense shooting where the defender had pass throughs and hit their family members or neighbors. Just one.
I've tried to find a single example of this myself and found nothing. The closest was that cop missing his target with an AR and killing a girl in a fitting room from a couple years back. As far as home defense goes, muh overpenetration is a giant meme.
Exactly. Cops miss 85-90% of their shots and bystanders are rarely ever hit. That’s not even a pass through, that’s a completely live and unimpeded round that still doesn’t hit anyone. And they are in public most of the time too.
Bro. Over-pen is a LEO consideration for when you have three cops mag dumping at a bad guy.
>60 rounds flying around
You blasting a meth fiend in a hallway is not one of those situations because it's probably with a Glock, it's probably within 5 yards and it's unlikely to be all 17 rounds and even if it is, it's going to be multiple layers of drywall and probably a street of allyway or yard and the a couple more layers of drywall between you and the next person
>Probably a whole load of cladding too
So yeah, unless your go to is a rifle round it's not an issue.
>unless your go to is a rifle round it's not an issue.
It’s still not an issue. 5.56 won’t penetrate more walls than 9mm. It tumbles and will lose velocity. Unless you use a .375 H&H with solids you’ll be fine. If you do use something like that, it’s very based even if a bad choice.
Why would you? Do you seriously want the guy you shot to be sitting in court testifying against you? Why not start with a nerf gun then escalate up from there?
Exactly. If you have to use a firearm on someone in a defensive scenario you should always aim (no pun intended) to kill them. Wounding them and having them survive adds way too much in the way of complications.
this, don't forget to keep screaming
>I'M AFRAID FOR MY LIFE
until you're 100% sure they've stopped moving
Itt anons pretend and ounce of lead going 1200 fps through a wall is less lethal than a slightly different ounce of lead going 1200 fps through a wall
>itt thread morons don’t understand that hundreds of tiny pellets have independent flight and terminal characteristics compared to a solid chunk of lead
If what you said was true, why are heavier birdshots used for longer ranges? Why do slugs travel further? Just because birdshot can, and is likely to be lethal, at HD ranges doesn’t make it a good choice. A box of buckshot is like $5 bucks. Don’t be such a miser.
At HD ranges number 4 birdshot is probably fine, its not ideal but it will get the job done. Birdshot is all that is allowed in some places so you use what you have, you could easily roll your own RB slug or buck but you have to explain it in court and if you have a corpse or two then it may not be good to have made illegal ammunition.
Where you can use 00/000/slug then just go for it,
>At HD ranges number 4 birdshot is probably fine, its not ideal but it will get the job done.
I don’t disagree but why settle for probably fine?
>Birdshot is all that is allowed in some places so you use what you have
Like where? Where can you use only own birdshot AND are legally ok using a gun for self defense. Some euros have weird laws but that’s a rare situation.
Either way it’s irrelevant. If that’s the case then the question is “is a gun better than no gun” to which the answer is no shit. The question in this thread is about bird vs buck or slugs.
Is it appropriate to [x] for home defense?
for all possible values of x, answer is yes
for when stinger missiles are overkill
rule #1 of gun ownership is to have fun and be yourself.
with that in mind, you should always use your coolest gun for home defense. birdshot isn't cool at all, so the answer to your question is no.
> 58543295
(You)
"birdshot" covers an extremely wide range of pellet sizes and different shells, from low brass 2 3/4in target loads to 3.5in turkey loads
personally at home defense distances I'd be fairly comfortable with T or F shot full power 2 3/4in loads or 3/3.5 inch magnum shells, but nothing else
ultimately though you should be loading buckshot or slugs
I would trust BB to drop someone, I had a couple of shells to mess around with once and they would be nasty hitting someone in the chest. Large quantity with decent mass.
>pic is the bottom of a small 5l beer keg shot from around 20m away
>numbers with decimals
>repeated letters
>letters
>Number number
>Number numbernumber
who came up with this shit?
The british.
#4 buck is perfectly adequate maybe even optimal for home defence and .2 inch T shot is still 85% the mass while probably coming in a hotter (magnum) and heavier (less air between the pellets) load. People conflate birdshot with the lighter more common loads but something that can take out a big bird at range is probably well enough for a person up close, within reason.
Do the T and B and F even stand for anything by the way? I'm guessing there's some sorta historical thing like how shot towers started the shot size numberings.
Paul Harrell says #4 bird is just fine.
What do we think of #4 shot for home defense? It was good enough for Vietnam.
#4 shot and #4 buckshot are very different
the military was using #4 buck not #4 bird
Do you think you could drop someone by beating on them with a hammer? Up close Birdshot is much worse than that.
good for you birdgay. I'll stick with an Ak-47 because frick you.
You're more than welcome to. You don't actually have to advocate for the use of a weapon instead of everything else in the universe to point out what it does accurately. It's like if you said you couldn't kill someone with an axe because you'd seen a video of someone walking off an axe blow.
>tripgay thinks his opinion matters
hearty kek
What's up with this Black person seething about birdshot every single time it's brought up?
When 300 win mag anon is on break we have to hire another autist to post about things guaranteed to start arguments and then keep them going so the board has some semblance of firearms discussion.
>Pic rel, the hiring process
"I would totally do this thing I've never done before under extreme duress because...I just will, ok!"
I would not use birdshot for home defense, 00 and slugs.
The only time you'll get 5 consecutive shots of birdshot on a human being where the shot does what you claim it does, is if you have a semi auto shotgun that has a fast action, tuned to birdshot, and the guy is point blank range.
If you're using a pump or slower semi-auto you won't get those shots off quickly, and you're relying on 5 trigger pulls to help you stop a bad guy when most shotguns start getting empty after 5 rounds. At longer distances you'll simply give the guy a bunch of tiny penetrations in his epidermis that are unlikely to even go deep into the muscle, if at all.
Also to add two more to the list, Dick Cheney shooting someone in the face with a shotgun by accident during a hunt (the old white guy survived), and another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Yes it's true 22lr and 45acp have failed to incapacitate. Unless they hit a vital, specifically the CNS, it won't stop an attacker. However we're talking about pistols, something that's small and meant to be a compromise. A shotgun isn't a small compromise or at least it shouldn't be when using the appropriate ammo, and if you're using buckshot you have almost the equivalent of 8 to 12 pistol caliber carbine sized projectiles flying at +p+ velocities. That's a HUGE difference from one simple 45acp. You shouldn't need multiple trigger pulls to stop an attacker with a shotgun, as you would with a small compromise weapon like a pistol.
Obviously I'm not going to deny that birdshot can kill or dissuade attackers. It's just not ideal and for you to argue it's ideal is silly. You're making a huge compromise for whatever reason. And hell, that's okay too because we do have our reasons, but it doesnt make it any less of a compromise. I use a PCC for home defense and not an AR for my own comprise reazn
>The only time you'll get 5 consecutive shots of birdshot on a human being where the shot does what you claim it does, is if you have a semi auto shotgun that has a fast action, tuned to birdshot, and the guy is point blank range.
Nonsense there's a video that's been passed around here countless times of a fatass cop slowly plinking away at some crackhead with his pistol at a speed any pump action could match.
and that's if having a fist sized hole in the chest does absolutely nothing to slow their advance, of course.
> Dick Cheney shooting someone in the face with a shotgun by accident during a hunt (the old white guy survived)
>While Whittington was searching for a downed bird, Cheney, Willeford, and a guide walked towards another covey about 100 yards (91 m) away. Whittington approached within 30 or 40 yards (27 or 37 m) of the shooters, at which point a single bird flew up, around, and behind Cheney in the direction of Whittington. Cheney shot at the bird and hit Whittington.
Why do you have to lie?
>, and another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Show me the injury photo or the medical report.
>Nonsense there's a video that's been passed around here countless times of a fatass cop slowly plinking away at some crackhead with his pistol at a speed any pump action could match.
That correlates to someone attacking you in your home how? Was the crackhead armed? Was he advancing on the cop? Did he start at 3-5 yards away?
>Yes it's true 22lr and 45acp have failed to incapacitate. Unless they hit a vital, specifically the CNS, it won't stop an attacker. However we're talking about pistols, something that's small and meant to be a compromise. A shotgun isn't a small compromise or at least it shouldn't be when using the appropriate ammo, and if you're using buckshot you have almost the equivalent of 8 to 12 pistol caliber carbine sized projectiles flying at +p+ velocities. That's a HUGE difference from one simple 45acp. You shouldn't need multiple trigger pulls to stop an attacker with a shotgun, as you would with a small compromise weapon like a pistol.
In other words we agree that referring to Birdshot as ineffective based on the idea (not statistic, just idea) that it will regularly fail to incapacitate in one shot while not believing that pistols are ineffective when they regularly fail to incapacitate with one shot is moronic.
>it's just not ideal and for you to argue it's ideal is silly
That would be silly if I had ever done it before in my life. Luckily, I haven't.
You're just not intellectually honest enough to accept any argument anyone gives you. If they're not willing to spoonfeed you all the details of the incident you automatically assume it's a lie, when someone shows you a detailed report of the woman nearly dying an hour after the shot to the chest... you refuse to accept it wasn't a dud but a normal birdshot load that simply wasn't enough to even make a fat tumblerina blink, you're also unwilling to do a quick Google search (unless its to disprove something as in the case of the Dick Cheney incident, how convenient lol). You're also a coward because it's pretty obvious that you want to make us believe that birdshot is just as good as anything else (that's why you're here arguing in the first place) when it's quite obvious that it's actually way WAY low on the totem pole of cartridges/shells you'd want to use for self defense. You're not even willing to stand behind your argument . If you're that much of a pussy to stand behind your argument on an anonymous forum no less, you have zero merit past your feminine emotions. It's okay anon, go ahead and use birdshot which is worse than a 9mm, on a long arm sized platform noless LOL
>Inb4 "I was arguing for rifle rounds all along!"
>You're also a coward because it's pretty obvious that you want to make us believe that birdshot is just as good as anything else
>If you dont restructure your argument to conform to my strawman you're a coward
You're moronic.
>Birdshot as ineffective based on the idea (not statistic, just idea) that it will regularly fail to incapacitate in one shot while not believing that pistols are ineffective when they regularly fail to incapacitate with one shot is moronic.
No, you comparing the two directly is moron. Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols is an old ass saying for a reason. Long guns are bigger and more powerful for a reason. Pistol are small and they lose the trade off of effectiveness for carryability and concealability.
A normal 9mm has about 4.5lbs of recoil energy in a full sized pistol weighing 2lbs. A shotgun is many times the overall size weighs 7.5-8.5lbs and has between 17-20lbs of recoil energy with just 1oz at 1200 fps. Why would you expect something 4x the weight with more than 4x the recoil and 4x the energy delivered to act the same? If they perform the same that’s an awful tradeoff
Good thing I have a saiga with an upgraded gas block then, I should be able to hit any intruder with 10 rounds easy.
>another instance where a daughter's boyfriend had a spat with a father, also at point blank, the boyfriend shot the girls father in the chest point blank with both barrels. Father lived simply because he had an Iphone in his chest pocket.
Source? Seems like an interesting one and I haven’t heard of it before.
Also I agree with everything you said, but the dick cheney story isn’t really that good of an example. It happened at 15-20+ yards away. He was old and hit in the face but the distance did a lot to save him.
>Is it ever appropriate to load birdshot for home defense?
If it is literally the only ammo you have I guess it's appropriate in that case. I'd rather have almost anything else though.
Just use slugs or drop the shotgun for literally anything in a sizable caliber and use hollow point.
Further more mag dump, most self defense situation a especially those in your own home are going to happen at functionally 0 distance and are going to to be quick and brutal
What a strange and weak argument from the guy. Ok, big guys shouldn't have guns. Thankfully I'm a small guy so I'm allowed to blast any attackers to kingdom come with my street sweeper
My birds can load their own shot.
Has there ever been a single documented case of someone shooting at an intruder and the projectile passing through a wall/door/whatever and injuring or killing someone on the other side? Because I've never been able to find one.
>i havent shot in 20 years
strike one
>i would a shotgun with birdshot when stopping power matters
strike two
>i should shoot to maim intentionally
strike 3
>or i would just use a baseball bat
wat
man this is one of the worst posts ive seen
You have a brick outer layer surrounding your house, not including a solid wood or solid rebar reinforced brick wall, thinking about shooting birds hot as someone is moronic, just go with 000 buck if your afraid since it will always penetrate
What about Rocksalt?
consooomers are so dumb
No you stupid dumbfrick for a Black person, why the frick would you load birdshot for a self defense gun you fricking pussy, that is the stupidest fricking shit i have ever heard in my life, you basically are asking to die.
If you don’t have a canon loaded with grapeshot sorry anon you’re ngmi
Frick no. Spend $10 for a box of slugs or buckshot you cheap bastard.
check the thread linked here for examples of what birdshot does at indoor ranges
Are you under attack by birds?
Mite b ok for skinny crackheads too. If you're facing a fat attacker like the girl in
, not so much.
see the thread linked here
To see how that works out most of the time.
playing a funny joke on an unsuspecting roody-poo
>Is it ever appropriate to load birdshot for home defense?
Yes some places ban slugs and buckshot so if you want to be OK in court best use birdshot. It creates horrific wounds.
>It was a dud round
Prove it
>there was barely even any blood.
Blood doesn’t work like the movies dipshit. Unless you have pictures of her afterwards you can’t say this and mean anything. She’s on camera for about 12 seconds after getting shot and turns her chest away from the camera. Her clothes would absorb blood.
>I defy anyone to show me birdshot failing to drop someone with five hits to the body.
I defy anyone to show me .22LR failing to drop someone with five hits to the body. Is .22 a good HD choice? Just because something can kill doesn’t mean it’s your best choice. Do you use FMJs in your carry pistol? If you’re hunting deer with a .308 would you use FMJs? Furthermore, thinking you’re going to shoot an invader 5 times with a shotgun in the first place is moronic. You’re using most of your capacity for one person (which would be fine 90% of the time) and you’d make a giant mess of your house. In the low low chance their is a 2nd threat you’re too focused on the first.
paul harrel did some tests on the subject came the conclusion bird shot will go through 2-3 layers of dry wall and it still good enough to incapacitate a attacker at 10-15 feet normal buck penetrates a ton of dry wall and will exit your house
>it's a fatal flaw to ever believe that flashlights or pepper spray can save you in any truly deadly attack
Somehow works in prisons
How does your thread prove it was a dud? It doesn’t. Why the frick would I go to /b/ and not here. More importantly pictures of birdshot wounds have nothing to do with most my posts. You can’t do logical reasoning so I’m not surprised you sperged out again
>thread died because of muh proof
Or….you posted at 11:53 and people were sleeping because we have jobs. I started posted while eating breakfast and getting ready.
Yeah birdshot will frick people good even at a distance, even if it doesn't kill or permanently injured the target.
This was at about 30 yards. The cop that got hit was incapacitated and spitting up bb's, but the only permanent injury was mild vision loss in one eye. At close range it only gets worse.
Using birdshot for self defence should be illegal. Blinding people is worse than killing them.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/bird-shot-for-self-defense
No thanks, if I'm absolutely forced to use a shotgun instead of a rifle for whatever reason I'll stick with buckshot.
What range were those shootings at?
South Africa used to (I at least hope it's "used to") use bird shot as less than lethal riot control.
Here's another 3 yard shot.
Another full on hit at 3 yards.
I'm not even sure what this schizo is arguing anymore. I sure as shit wouldn't gamble on an attacker being at near contact distance and hoping for the best when there's a whole world of vastly superior options available.
The point is that morons keep arguing that birdshot is the equivalent of sneezing on someone based on literally one video that said morons interpret as birdshot failing to do anything against a girl rather than realizing that either the shooter in the video partially missed her, or the shell he fired was faulty.
Literally all other evidence on the effectiveness of birdshot at close range say that you'll get fricked up with you get hit, but morons decide to ignore it all since this one video exists.
>is the equivalent of sneezing on someone
Literally no one has said that and even all the people shitting on birdshot say it can be lethal, but other options are better. Go ahead, show me posts that say otherwise.
> Literally all other evidence on the effectiveness of birdshot at close range
Ahem
Penetration minimums exist for a reason
I don't remember how far it was, but there were two cops in Oregon or some dump up north that got into a shootout with a schitzo and both got shot in the face with birdshot after they both tried to peek the same corner, and they both lived.
we're talking easily 10-20 yards in that scenario, double if not triple the FBI stated distance of the average self defense shooting. at 50 yards no8 birdshot is having trouble breaking skin and clothing, and has a pattern of about 4 feet or more.
If it's tungsten shot, yeah. #9 turkey loads penetrate adequately for people out to 20+ yards.
mercy that is not reasonably priced.
Well, yeah. It's tungsten. Shit's expensive, dork.
here's a school shooter putting a load of birdshot into a chick from ≈10' away, not only did she live she turned around and walked away while a guy lunged at the shooter
Pic Related never even dropped, he was conscious all the way to the hospital.
%3D%3D
%3D%3D
I forgot about that dude. What a fricking badass!
What if I don't care about my neighbors?
Maybe some of the larger shot-sizes. They can be very lethal at closer ranges while quickly losing effectiveness on bystanders at further ranges.
I wouldn't go smaller than #4 though. The smaller shot sizes lose effectiveness way too quickly to be reliable in varied defensive situations. There are many instances out there of people being shot by smaller shot sizes and only being a little bloodied or maimed.
>I'm also not a small guy
I am a small guy and I'd take fighting someone who thinks not being a small guy is what matters in a fight than another small guy with more training, any day of the week.
There was a video recently of some drugged out butthole who shot two cops with birdshot. Instantly took them both out of the fight; one lost an eye.
Unless you're attacked by someone high as a kite unable to feel pain, it'll put the fight out of someone. It also wont destroy your fricking home in the process.