I have three 12t central AC systems in my home. Two of them have died over the last 25 years. Should I put up the $30-40k to replace the two failed systems, or gradually switch to a per-room mini-split system? The latter appears to be way cheaper to install, run, and maintain.
per rooms are better if you live alone because you only need to cool the room you're in
its not like heating where if you dont heat the bathroom in the winter your pipes will probably freeze
Thank you for that input. I have a house that requires three central air systems, do you think I live alone?
I don't know, do you? I have three separate relatives who live by themselves in 2 and 3 story houses. Maybe divulge more information instead of being snarky.
Just realized I made a typo here. Each system is 4t, totaling 12t.
Nah I'm not that much of a boomer, there are 6 people living here.
>3x 12t systems
Yeah I was about to ask what kind of cult compound you’re running.
Will the mini splits really add up? It’s really fricking annoying when you have mini splits and go to take a shit in the bathroom and it’s 87deg in there because no HVAC.
How old is the house? Sounds like a big house, have you ever gotten a quote from a good HVAC company and see what it would run to get more modern zones and smart tech like that? I don’t know how deep it goes in 2023, but if you could get a setup where you can leave unused rooms at 80F+, maybe you save your money there?
It just sounds like a big place and a lot of mini splits to install.
>Just realized I made a typo here. Each system is 4t, totaling 12t.
I was about to shit bricks if you actually had three 12 ton systems. Even the three 4 ton units that you have is crazy unless you're living in a giant 6-10K squarefoot mansion.
25 years is actually a pretty decent lifespan for modern units, but if you're not in a gigantic mansion then they may be dying prematurely due to being oversized for the space (this would cause them to short cycle which reduces the lifetime of the compressor and other parts while simultaneously compromising comfort due to inadequate humidity control)
I've installed a few central systems and a bunch of minisplits, and I would rather replace 2 central units than install 12+ rooms worth of mini splits. You already have the ducting and everything in place. You could get this done for less than $8K if you're willing to do the work yourself.
IDC how much money you make, if you're looking to save $20-30K for a few days of work then it's a no brainer.
>Even the three 4 ton units that you have is crazy unless you're living in a giant 6-10K squarefoot mansion.
I live in a mansion.
>You could get this done for less than $8K if you're willing to do the work yourself.
I'll pay you $12K if you're really sure of that.
>I'll pay you $12K if you're really sure of that.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/384321065377
Call Ingrams directly and ask for their best price on 2 of these units. You should be able to get the two systems delivered for under $6K total, which leaves you with a couple thousand dollars to get tools and possibly hire some labor if you don't want to frick with adapting to your ductwork and physically moving the units. (I believe the condensers are just under 300lb each)
You won't need new ductwork, new condenser pads, or new electrical whips. Whether or not you need new refrigerant lines is dependent on a couple of other factors-- if there is corrosion issues, nonmatching lines in terms of size, or the lines are fairly accessible then they should be replaced.
Watch a youtube video about replacing a central split system and see if you think it looks like $15K in labor each lol
>300lb
Lol wtf.
Yeah I looked it's 196 lbs/ 190 lbs. Still pretty heavy for these; to be manhandling around staircases.
I have 4 kids and work all the time. While it looks like a lot of fun, this isn't going to happen for me. I need a neckbearded handyman to do most of it (maybe us working together), or I need a cheaper alternative system.
By "maintain" I meant repair/replace failed components. Fixing the current central system would actually not be a big deal, except for them using now-illegal refrigerant. I could wait for the government to collapse, which might happen before my last central system does.
MYKKKX
>except for them using now-illegal refrigerant.
if that's the only issue, you can still easily buy r22 from craigslist etc. A 30lb bottle of r22 is less than $500 and will take care of your needs forever.
If you're really looking at dropping $30K to replace these things, then the cheapest alternative is to find a decent HVAC guy who will work with you for a reasonable rate to just repair the systems that you have. Try asking your contacts for a recommendation or quiz one of the guys looking for sidework on Nextdoor or Facebook Marketplace
Gradually switching to a per room mini-split system isn't going to save you money on the long term after adding 12-20 heads compared to just replacing the central systems that you have or simply repairing them.
Good luck OP
>if that's the only issue, you can still easily buy r22 from craigslist etc. A 30lb bottle of r22 is less than $500 and will take care of your needs forever. If you're really looking at dropping $30K to replace these things, then the cheapest alternative is to find a decent HVAC guy who will work with you for a reasonable rate to just repair the systems that you have. Try asking your contacts for a recommendation or quiz one of the guys looking for sidework on Nextdoor or Facebook Marketplace
I have gone down that road. There are classes of leak that no one is willing to fix, and the quote I have gotten is almost $1K to simply find the leak. It's probably the compressor, but if it isn't then that's $1K gone because no one will attempt a repair otherwise.
>Gradually switching to a per room mini-split system isn't going to save you money on the long term after adding 12-20 heads compared to just replacing the central systems that you have or simply repairing them.
Good to know, thank you.
>except for them using now-illegal refrigerant
charge it with R290 which is perfectly legal and easy to obtain.
Is that really a straight swap in R22 systems? If true, no one else seems to think so.
It is very close to r22, enough that a system engineered for r22 will work with r290 the same with minimal performance changes, and is even slightly less load on the compressor.
The downside at least on a home install is that it is flammable.
While this comes off as a concern to a lot of people, especially installers, it is perfectly reasonable to have flammable gas inside a home and has been for the past 150 years at least.
If you're still concerned about it, my high school, I saw the maintenance on multiple occasions repair and recharge the units there with literal propane tanks. A school, for children.
also the benefit of r290 is you can put a little bit in and then find the leak fairly quickly with a gas detection meter.
so even if you chose to recharge with a different refrigerant, you can still locate the leak this way effectively.
That still doesn't sound right. 12 ton is an incredibly massive amount of cooling capacity. That's enough cooling for 7000 square feet in the middle of the god damn Arizona desert. Nearly 9000 square feet in a more temperate climate. But since you're being secretive with the details for some reason I'll take your word for it that you live in a really opulent mansion in the desert and require this capacity.
4 ton units are about $3000 a piece if you order them from a wholesaler. Figure in $1000 for ancillaries and if all you need is a direct swap that's $10k and a few days of your time. Nowhere near $40,000 like a chump. And if you do live in a 7000 square foot mansion in the Arizona desert a 30 zone minisplit would be a ridiculous waste of time to set up.
I do this for a living. Mini splits are shit. I've never worked on them, but I heard the Japanese brands like Mitsubishi are decent. Everything else is just rebranded Chinese junk. They are only worthwhile in something like a bonus room, garage, shed, or a house without central air.
Get a basic 14 seer AC with a basic 80% furnace. If you have the cash, a two stage 80% furnace is worth it. High efficiency stuff is mostly bullshit and causes lots of problems.
You're moronic. Most of the world uses MINI SPLITS accept moronic North Americans.
You're correct, but if it was me, I wouldn't install them all over a 7,000 sqft house.
OP it really sounds like you just need to dig a little harder to find a competent HVAC guy to repair those things. Finding a leak isn't rocket science; it's just that most techs are actually moronic and don't really do well with repairs.
All the money in the game for them is either super fast easy repairs like capacitors, contactors, etc or else they're trying to sell you a new system (hence the ASTRONOMICAL quotes that you're getting)
If you look a little harder and you're in an even moderately populated area, then you should be able to find someone who you can pay for a couple hours in order to come out and find the leak.
cont.
If you're in or near a medium or large city then unironically try asking on your local subreddit if anyone has an HVAC guy that they can recommend. Explain that the people you've had out are just trying to sell you a new system for $20K instead of trying to fix it. This is a VERY common problem with heating and air guys across the USA
I got a minisplit. It's pretty shit, cooling doesn't keep up in the summer, heating doesn't keep up in the winter. You might be like "oh but Ur BtU CaPaCity" but nah, they're just a little shittier than central. Not much, but enough to notice.
>mini splits are shit
>don't tell me that it's not sized properly
You don't have a valid complaint. (minisplits would still be a poor fit for OP but for other reasons)
>I have three 12t central AC systems in my home.
See:
you're going to have to explain why your house has fricking 12T of aircon first off, because this is in fact a considerable amount and extremely important to suggestions and further discussion.
because otherwise, what am I supoosed to say, that it is a great idea to go out and buy a fricking dozen 12k btu mini splits and pay someone to go install literally 12 fricking mini splits all over your house? For good units, you are looking at 20k right there alone, and then what like 6-8k total on install.
>you're going to have to explain why your house has fricking 12T of aircon first off, because this is in fact a considerable amount and extremely important to suggestions and further discussion.
The conditioned space is about 7000sqft.
>three 12 ton systems
Do you live in a 6000 sqft walk-in refrigerator or something?
American HVAC equipment is way behind; do what the rest of the world does and get a variable speed condenser and retrofit it to your current ductwork. Sure, its a bit more expensive but a Mitsubishi, LG or even a Mr. Cool will be quieter/more efficient/ more reliable than the standard units most HVAC techs get from their supplier for dirt cheap. If you go on the Mitsubishi website they'll direct you to a certified tech near you. Most of the systems they sell here are made in Mexico or from Chinese Parts anyways.
>3 12 ton units
homie be living in da wal martz frozen section
Fwiw as far as maintaining goes, I work on service side hvac and we charge per individual head on maintainence. If your house is that big it'd probably take me 2 days to properly service all 15 of your head units vs 5-6 hours for 3 air handlers/heat pumps
how do you stay in business working this slow
the competition (e. g. the company I work for) does all the splits in a big bank building in a day (a few dozen redundant splits for all the server rooms)
I'm very thorough and my customers like me
Maintenance is literally a scam though where you do nothing.
You can do ducted minisplits
Obviously youd have to rework the ducting but it might be a good option
Mine isnt ducted but i do have ducts connected to a heat exchange ventilator and the whole system keeps my house very comfortable unless its exceptionally cold
But it also doesnt get very hot here and my house is tiny
If you can, change over to Mini Split. You can basically do the install yourself and they are way more efficient than a central HVAC unit. The amount of energy waste in a central unit is enormous, you have leakage from the air handler all the way through the ducting. With the MIINI SPLIT you are delivering the heat or cold directly into the area required and if one system fails you fix it and not have to replace the entire system. The market is also directly accessible to the DIY guy instead of being a fricking MAFIA of dealers and manufacturers. Fricking manufacturers won't even list what their units cost so you can even research what you can afford. Frick everyone from Lennox to AS to Carrier and Goodman (although you can by their shit on line who the frick wants it).
Frick the HVAC mob and let them shove up their ass. You can buy refrigerant online without an EPA license or you can get it for a few bucks and buy it legally. Get some gauges and a few other tools and your good to go.
Gree and Fujitsu make air handler mini splits if you want that sorta thing
Get more estimates $40k is robbery
We pay 2000€ for a 5kW heat pump minisplit.
For an American house you'd need 2.
It's ridiculous to pay 40 000 just to have room to room control.
but with splits and multisplits you always have single room control, while with ducted AC you often don't
I don't get your post