I have heard lots of claims that Russia can no longer make this or that military asset. Like I don't understand, why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them? What exactly can they no longer produce? It seems they have no problem making ammo, and missiles, and artillery and other munitions. Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon. They can still make naval ships and planes and fricking submarines and stuff. What problem presents?
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon
You almost had me anon, gr8 b8 m8.
Take a hard look at what model of tank is being worked on in your picture and ask yourself
"Where any of the chasis and castings we see made after 1992?"
And then fetal hug a live grenade like your brothers are all doing.
>Where any of the chasis and castings we see made after 1992
thats something i was thinking about the other day, do we have any images/video of russian modern tank manufacture? like you said casting turrets and welding hulls etc?
Okay, I hate vatniks as much as the next guy, but I'm curious - I've heard that the US produced most of their M1 Abrams hulls around that period as well, and aren't making any more fresh chassis for their tanks anymore. Is that false?
>Lima line
>Oh No! Congressional funding lapsed... wait, no it didn't (obvious it wouldn't to anyone not moronic)... wait, we can spin this...frick, they just gave another 3/4 trillion to upgrade the plant, what now...?
>here, this /k/ shitpost
I have no idea what you're trying to say but it is obvious you don't understand how greentext works.
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs
Is this meant to describe what a T-14 driver feels when the gearbox breaks?
Previously they imported electronics, ball bearings, and other common but hard to replace stuff.
>why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them?
Global sanctions. Import bans. Frozen resources and funds. Insane corruption and dozens of years of mistreatment (and self sabotaging) of their own existing supplies.
This very second, the country cannot even provide enough electricity to keep the citizens warm during Winter.
Doesn't help they don't have sufficient internal oil to meet demand. It's all going to exports, lol.
They're Russians, anon. They can survive just about anything in just about any condition. Business as usual.
got any proofs for your claims?
>be soviet union
>massive continent-spanning empire
>large amount of human capital and manufacturing is on the more southern/european parts of the empire
>most of these are also not of russian ethnicity.
>soviet union collapses
>almost all of these actually useful, populated regions split off
>including some of the most industrious parts of your country
>be russia
>already lost a massive chunk of your industrial might
>transition from communism to "capitalism"
>in the complete chaos many factories are simply left to rot for a bit as nobody pays for them or the workers
>some still do today
>all of the reptillian party members that used to be in politics magically take complete control of all the major industrial enterprise that isn't immediately abandoned
>embezzling of funds on a scale never seen before in the soviet union begins
>oil and gas starts to take priority as it is the best moneymaker, russia suffers from hyper dutch disease as a result
>industry atrophies even further
this is how you turn an industrial superpower into one with a smaller GDP than italy.
oh and this is ignoring the fact that much of the industrial power built up in the soviet union before the cold war was by foreign enterprise from the US and europe (for many industries, russia basically never learned to make their own manufacturing equipment, making building new factories pretty fricking hard.)
people scoff at sanctions as ineffective right now, but while it may never be the undoing of russia, it is making it much more difficult for them to upkeep everything that they previously used western parts for.
The big problem with the Soviet economy, and by extension the russian economy is that it was deeply reliant on its heavy industry to drive it's economy (upwards of 40% of the economy was directly related to military production). So suddenly when all those orders for specialty steel, armor, rubber, ICs, etc suddenly disappear over night, your economy goes into freefall. They then spent the next 30 years NOT investing into their light industry which only made things worse. It's far easier to regenerate a military production base when you have lots of civilian industries/businesses than the other way around.
>The big problem with the Soviet economy, and by extension the russian economy is that it was deeply reliant on its heavy industry to drive it's economy (upwards of 40% of the economy was directly related to military production).
It might have been higher. The Soviets piled up huge amounts of reserves they wanted in the event of war (and natural disasters, severe winters, crop failures) at thousands of facilities. Drugs, fuels, metals, timber, equipment, railroad tracks. This was worth hundreds of billions of dollars, was not strictly military production, but was not going into the civilian sector but the reserves.
>So suddenly when all those orders for specialty steel, armor, rubber, ICs, etc suddenly disappear over night, your economy goes into freefall.
Hmm. What they experienced in the 1990s was a bit like our Great Depression which resulted from overproduction (too many goods chasing not enough dollars). The Russian economy was like a pyramid which flipped upside down when it was switched to a free-market basis, so the raw materials and basic sectors of industry were given a boost, and Russia opened to trade and then these huge piles of reserves were dumped on the world market for cheap. The new political elite became natural resource tycoons who benefited from privatization of the resource industries. They shape Russian policy, control key appointments in the government, major factions in the State Duma, many government agencies and departments, etc. The military part was jettisoned.
For example, if you look at Russian exports today, half of it is oil and refined petroleum products, and coal. Then there are metals of various kinds. Gold. Platinum. Stuff like that. Also the owners don't necessarily have to be Russians. The chairman of Rosneft is Qatari. (It's ironically emblematic of globalist capitalism.)
>They then spent the next 30 years NOT investing into their light industry which only made things worse.
That's true.
>The underground Mir mine flooded again in 2017, trapping over 140 miners, all but eight of whom were rescued.
What the frick
That's not even the most what the frick thing in that wikipedia article
>In order to stabilize the abandoned surface main pit, its bottom was covered by a rubble layer 45 m (148 ft) thick.
inb4 its just old car tires
>The Soviets piled up huge amounts of reserves
And when the most terrible time comes in Russia, when the Russian land is all covered with the blood of war, when the Last Red Line has been crossed, Suvorov will awaken, come out of the cave, bring reserves, Armatas and Noookes and save his Fatherland.
>The Soviets piled up huge amounts of reserves they wanted in the event of war
This was the thinking in the 50s to early 60s, after that the Soviet MIC began a transition from war preparedness and more towards a jobs program as it started to consume a larger and larger percentage of the economy as the true scale of things became apparent to Soviet planners. There was a point in time near the end of the Cold War where the production of the Typhoon class ate up nearly 60% of the military budget according to a Gorbachev interview.
Damn, I saw that Russian mine (or one like it) in a Russian sci-fi movie one time. It also features Russian cops as protagonists, and a giant highway where trucks travel five abreast, bumper to bumper, probably carrying goods from China.
I can't get a single Russian to identify the movie for me, and damn, I've tried. Not even "mir mine" and "Mirsky" as shooting location on IMDB helps me. Any anon here knows?
It took me three seconds to find the mine. Three fricking seconds you goddamned mong.
https://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2013/06/28/russian_diamond_mine_is_the_worlds_second_largest_hole.html
He's asking for the name of a movie you utter moron.
Imagine how much of a mong you will feel like when you figure out that I was not asking for the name of the mine, you fricking moron.
Yeah, that's right. I called you out. Gonna hide now?
Trying to help. This one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Superdeep
>It's far easier to regenerate a military production base when you have lots of civilian industries/businesses than the other way around.
as I recall pretty much all of the US' military production during WW2 was from civilian industries. Apparently it's pretty easy to turn a car factory into an airplane part factory or something.
>Apparently it's pretty easy to turn a car factory into an airplane part factory or something.
not true
most car factories were used to make cars during the war
specifically trucks and jeeps
but they were never converted into tank factories
only the russians really made tanks out of truck factories, but they were extremely simple light tanks like the T-50 and T-60, not medium tanks like the T-34
but most tanks and aircraft were made in factories specifically made to make tanks and aircraft
at most, you had specific parts that came from the automobile industry, like the M4A2 being powered by 2 civilian truck engines or the matilda being powered by 2 bus engines, but the turret and hull required either expensive casting facilities or welders or both to make
a car factory cannot be turned into an MBT factory. The engineers that know how to set up a car factory KNOW how to set up a new tank factory that. mimics a Fordist Toyotist in line production facility.
check above. yes machines were simpler but it's even simpler to call Ford, Tesla and GM and tell them to set up an entire new production line for MBT production only. the factory under war condition will be built in 6 months and be churning mbts by the thousands in under a year. wanna add insult to injury? you can have them build not just need tanks. you can design an entire new MBT and have them fielded by the time your own old bars start feeling the attrition.
>you need a large well-developed civilian industry in order to have a large well-developed military industry
always has been
>as I recall pretty much all of the US' military production during WW2 was from civilian industries. Apparently it's pretty easy to turn a car factory into an airplane part factory or something.
Only valid at a time when factory where low-tech and airplane were made of the same technology as cars.
Changing the production line was just a matter of saying "instead of bending metal this shape, you bend it in this shape."
Aircraft fuselage were plain steel, the controls were the same as used by all cars, the engines were higher quality but nothing too drastic.
Nowadays modern weapons need factories that are only one of a kind, the aircraft fuselage are magical alloy obtained through dark magic.
We could achieve the ridiculous production rate of WWII today if we accepted far lower performance and skimmed a lot of unnecessary stuff.
Tone down the supersonic VTOL stealth fighter that shoot a 10M$ missile that navigate autonomously to a target 1000km away like a space-exploration mission.
Embrace the 100 subsonic noisy missile-bus you lose 10% of, but reach 500km inside the enemy line shooting 100k$ missiles with consumer grade electronic.
We are rediscovering mass-production with micro-drones. Shit performance but incredibly cost-efficient.
We could actually use WWII fighter right now to shoot down drones too cheap for missiles.
>Aircraft fuselage were plain steel, the controls were the same as used by all cars,
Why do tech illiterates dare express such nonsense? That statement is moronic by /b/ standards and insane by /misc/ standards. Why the frick do you imagine either to be true? How do you not know fuselages were mostly alloy with exceptions like wood for Mosquito and doped fabric for light aircraft?
How do you not understand the difference between sticks and yokes pulling cable flight controls vs. heavy steel and iron worm drive steering boxes and mechanical linkage?
You should be ashamed to be so mongtarded. Those are not trifling or excusable errors. I knew and understood the difference as a child.
Calm yourself Mr.can't recognize hyperbole. Someday you'll be triggered by hearing SpaceX "using stainless steel" for Starship. If you knew my job you'd slap yourself out of shame.
I didn't have the time to explain what Duralumin is and how much it changed across time, google that word.
Today's alloys are basically mystical fantasy metal in comparison.
You are the one who shouldn't underestimate how simple aircraft were COMPARED to the gap of today between car and aircraft. Comparing yoke to worm drive? Please, that's equivalent as complexity go. The technology gap was small and that's why you could produce aircraft massively starting from a car factory.
Ever heard of the Maintenance hours per Flight hours ratio?
During WWII it was sometime 1 to 1 and you'd fly it 1000hours before changing the engine.
Nowadays it's more like 50 to 1 and you need to change the engine every 100 hours.
Nowadays's aircraft systems are so integrated with each others that you cannot afford a single screw tightened at the wrong torque without the aircraft spontaneously disassembling.
If you think you'll produce anywhere within the same range as WWII you are delusional.
You severely underestimate how everything, at every level, got more complex, design phase taking years/decades longer because you can't retrain engineers and you need 10 time more specializations.
Building ONE "mbt factory"?
You'll need 10 factories for components each as complex as a Sherman was.
The reason you will match the attrition rate is because your opponents will be in the same bags.
War of the future will involve less units, less ships, less aircraft.
We are working very hard on drones and AI so you don't lose crews who require a lot more training than ever before.
I say that despite you choosing the US, the only country with enough resources to not depend on import and they were still surprised by how much titanium they bought from Russia when shit went down.
I remember reading how in WW1 the US east coast become a major aircraft fuselage manufacturing center because of the large number of furniture factories, i assume times have changed.
>WWI
almost all planes at that time were made of wood and doped paper, with steel cables for whatever extra rigidity they could get.
>only the russians really made tanks out of truck factories
>a car factory cannot be turned into an MBT factory. The engineers that know how to set up a car factory KNOW how to set up a new tank factory that.
That was exactly the case in the soviet union, there was even a joke about it, that when a factory was called "agricultural machines company" that it produced plows besides military shit.
Each factory had supposedly emergency plans to what switch production in case of war, though usually it would be easier than switching from cars to tanks
Imagine the bunkers under azovstal but applied to the whole economy
>Russians discover Shadow Scheme wunderwaffle
and to do that requires additional investment in making that car production line capable of conversion to a tank production line
there is no free lunch
>there is no free lunch
Indeed it never is, one could even make a case for it being one reason for the collapse of the USSR in the first place
The soviet union was less a country and it's army than an army and its appendix
>The soviet union was less a country and it's army than an army and its appendix
I'm not a fan of that argument because liberals use it a lot to justify defence cuts, general disarmament and total cessation of weapons development, but yeah the USSR definitely overspent on its military
that being said, on the civilian side it was also a completely corrupt totalitarian government brutally suppressed critique and attempted a total planned economy, its collapse was just a matter of time
>pretty easy
USA wasn't making enough shit to truly overwhelm its enemies until 1943
That's a very significant delay and if America's allies had been weaker the war may have already been basically over by the time they were done revving up for the insane production feats of 1943-45
the US had already outproduced germany and japan in AFVs combined in 1942, the year it entered the war
and as I said that's not enough to overwhelm them
>vastly outproduce the enemy in the first year you enter the war
>this somehow isnt a sign that US industry is overwhelmingly powerful
It was a sign that the US industry would eventually overwhelm everyone else
Not that they had already produced enough to overwhelm everyone else
They didn't just shove Fords off the production line and start making tanks, they ripped the now-irrelevant parts out of the factories, crane-lifted everything to new positions, then added new equipment while paying all of the workers with transferable skills to work for them.
And many parts used in their post-soviet tanks come from the west and are sanctioned iirc, maybe they can get chink replacements. Also western machinery used in weapons assembly and manufacturing, ammo production.
don't forget that a lot of their best universities and facilities were actually outside of Russia lol, like in Ukraine (or fricking Kazakhstan)
Care to name a few? The top Ukrainian universities are stuff like the Kiev Polytechnic Institute and National University of Kiev. If you think these schools are as good as, say, MGU, MIPT or SPBU, you’re delusional.
>be Russia directly after the fall of the Soviet Union
>there are a handful of politicians that try to make sure the country doesn’t collapse immediately
>decide to seed the capitalist economy by taking loads of the previously government owned factories, splitting up ownership into a bunch of stocks and handing them out to all the former workers and/or random people in the region
>russian mob goes house to house offering to buy these papers for pennies on the dollar
>people who have lived their entire lives under communism and don’t understand economics gladly hand them over in favor of cold hard cash because the economy is shit and people gotta eat
>this continues until the mob has more than 50% stake in the company
>they immediately do a hostile takeover legally with their sleezy lawyers
>specialized expensive equipment in good condition sold off as scrap metal
>working factory machines like hydraulic presses, milling machines and lathes either sold to China for next to nothing or cut up into scrap
>factory worth tens of millions and employing hundreds of people destroyed netting a handful of guys a couple 100k each
The thing is Ukraine was also a quasi mafia state after the fall of CCCP, but their industry managed to get away with it mostly unscathed.
>their industry managed to get away with it mostly unscathed
No
Is it not? Is it not 50/50 state privately owned? Kiev is churning out Stugnas, and NASU does electronics that Russia is incapable of making themselves.
Ukraine's industry took a big hit. They managed to survive through the '90s by building parts and providing maintenance services for Russia's Soviet kit up until 2014.
Industry overall got fricked quite a bit here.
Some died because losing cooperation links in other parts of the collapsed USSR.
Some died because the products it made were shit with no place in the market (basically most consumer stuff).
Some died because it just wasn't able to sell stuff abroad (shitty laws still plague this country).
Yes, some stuff didn't get sold in the 90s. Partially because nobody managed to get to that, because other businesses were deemed more interesting, for one reason or another. Partially because of other reasons.
Here's a pretty good example: even during mid 2000s there were fricked up situations like the famous "privatization" of Kryvorizhstal (a metallurgy company), where it got sold to local homosexual oligarchs for $800 million. And just like a year later foreign investors gladly paid 6x the price for it (almost 5 billion USD), where the new government cancelled the sale contract. Who those homosexual oligarchs were? Yanukovich's main bro Akhmetov and ex-president's son-in-law Pinchuk kek.
The examples you list are mostly from MIC, which didn't get privatized that much both in russia and Ukraine, partially for strategic reasons, partially because no one wanted that shit. Why buy some shitty weapons company where you won't be able to make money: the local government is broke and even when it buys something the conditions are shit because of laws, while you're also prevented from exporting stuff abroad yourself due to laws and shit (only through the government intermediary, which is lame and corrupt). You can instead buy some resource type business and have it actually print money by selling those resources abroad. Or you can buy some shitty factory with old crap machinery and cut it and sell it as metal scraps.
Yeah, this happened to some extent in all former commie countries.
Russia was what was being discussed though, just adding onto that post about what happened to soviet industrial capability
>Ukraine was also a quasi mafia state
yes
>their industry managed to get away with it
lol no
>They managed to survive
for certain standards of survival
from 1992 Ukraine's GDP grew only 2.5x to 190 billion dollars in 2013, and first experienced a pretty devastating 50% drop to only 30 billion USD in 1999
in contrast, from 1992 Vietnam grew from a 10 billion dollar economy to 240 billon dollars in 2015 (!!!)
>bbbut Vietnam is a tropical shithole
fine
Poland, Ukraine's neighbour and fellow ex-Warpact, grew its GDP from about 100 billion dollars in 1992 to 500 billion dollars in 2015
if you are a Ukrainian, that means watching your neighbour with a slightly better job grow to more than 2 times your pay, simply because his boss treats him better
it means watching some shithead rice farmer from Hamburger Hill grow to eventually earn more than you
all this during the IT revolution, when the human race experienced the fastest rates of growth and innovation ever so far, when we went from running MS-DOS on a 33 Mhz chip to running GTA V on an Intel i7 and 2 GB Nvidia card
no wonder they were so infuriated they voted Yanukovych out, and then revolted
no wonder they would rather fight to be in the Eurozone than go back to living in Russia's loving arms
>Not really
we know they do because of how Russia has had to stop production on certain items and redesign others e.g. radars and large engines, and turn to Iran for drones
While I agree with you, you are comparing an undeveloped state(at the time) with a developed one. Suppose you have $10.000 and I have $100, we both go out and earn an extra $100. You grew 1% and I grew 100%. Growth rates might look impressive, and they are, but they don't tell the full story either. Ukraine still had a higher gdp per capita then Vietnam despite the abysmal growth rates.
yes, which is why I added Poland as a more appropriate comparator
Vietnam is just there because it's also something to realise that the fricking rice farmers now have a GDP per capita equivalent to Ukraine's before Maidan
you forgot a little detail: That the Russian Mafia is now lead and full of former USSR public employees, party members including the owners and managers of these same ex-state corporations and companies they're now taking over.
This happened to pretty much every post-soviet state in some capacity.
All of that because they were too proud to sell them to western capitalist pig. The same way they were too proud to collaborate on an equal level with other European countries.
What a waste.
>T-14
>The Russian Army initially planned to acquire 2,300 T-14s between 2015 and 2020.
>By 2018, production and fiscal shortfalls delayed this to 2025, before Russia announced the apparent cancellation of the main production run on 30 July 2018.
>as of 2021, the Russian state-owned TASS media agency claimed the Armata had been expected to begin serial production in 2022, with delivery of a test batch of 100 to the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division expected to begin in 2022.
>In December 2021 the Russian state conglomerate Rostec stated that serial production had commenced, with "more than 40" Armata tanks anticipated to be delivered to Russian troops after 2023.[21]
There you go, from 2300 tanks by to 2020 we're at an alleged 'more than 40' in 2023. No, we may not see them.
See them? Oh you will not see them, but you will hear them, but then it'll be too late.
jesus christ, that thing wants to die, let it die already.
Damn, they could've become Canada 2.0 except bigger and relevant instead they went for that failed look state that can't cobble together a new tank from soviet leftovers.
sounds like the gearbox eating itself
>See them? Oh you will not see them, but you will hear them, but then it'll be too late.
I thought Russians modeled themselves off of w40k orks not chaos, but that thing is clearly powered by the screaming souls of the damned.
>999
T14 IS FRICKING CURSED! LMAO
always was
>look at the road wheels
>not even solid rubber
>made up of rectangles glued together
wtf?
It’s marks from the press tool used when vulcanizing them to the wheel. US road wheels have similar marks.
Friendly reminder that during the time it took Russia to put together that single failed prototype the Norks designed and put into serial production two entire generations of tanks with new hulls and turrets.
When you larp 40k Imperium better than the russians.
Recently someone noted that they have at least 4 new vehicles using a twin 14.5mm mount based on the same mount they use for their rotary gun meaning they could easily retrofit them all to use it so, Kim obviously plays Blood Angels.
>Kim obviously plays Blood Angels.
Judging by how much stuff they were "gifted" he might as well play Blood Ravens
no stabilizers?
Stabilizers are generally not on the whole time. I don't know how are the western ones, but the T-64/72/80/90 ones cannot be enabled for more than few hours, otherwise they will overheat and break.
Simplest possibilities:
1) it's a shell mock-up vehicle missing many major components
2) there's only a driver inside
Even so, for a semi-staged exhibition video they could just squeeze the handles for a few seconds. Even if it's just five guys showing off their cool range day, they'd want to max the cool factor any way they could.
Why does it sound like a dying turbine? I thought that thing was diesel powered.
Turbocharger on the diesel engine
The sound reminds me of lower decks of Moskva..
Speaking of warhammer stuff, could anyone link that monke vocaroo pasta?
>T-14 ratrod
Sounds underpowered.
They are losing tanks way faster than they can build them. It's that simple.
>Like I don't understand, why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them?
Well, for example, the Tu-160 never had it's tooling finished before the production line was shut down so each airframe is artisanal so any further production needs to have a completely new production line set up, so at that point you have no reason to not heavily modernize it but for that price you might as well design a new airframe entirely. T-80 production relied heavily on almost all of its production lines being based in Ukraine.
>T-14
>should be rolling soon
They're coming up on being 10 years behind on their original order of 20.
Strategically important machinery wears out and becomes very difficult to replace.
Here's a neat, real-world story. Back in WWII this machine was one of many the USA sent to Russia as part of lend-lease. This is an "upsetter". It grabs a metal bar and then smashes the end of it into a shape, imagine the process of putting a head on a nail. This, however, was a very big one. So big in fact that even today there are only a handful of machines of this capacity in the world. This one went to a factory in Russia where it cranked out axle shafts for tanks and trucks, arty shell bodies, and all sorts of other stuff for 24 hours a day for decades...until it finally wore out a few years ago, and people took on the tremendous expense of shipping it back to the USA for refurbishment.
And here is the 550 ton main casting of the machine being shipped back to the factory in Ohio that built it so can be refurbished.
Full story here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161010140532/https://www.forgemag.com/articles/84490-ohio-built-upsetter-from-soviet-union-returns-for-rebuilding
...and if you have several million you can buy it yourself:
https://www.trueforge.com/View/9-National-High-Duty-Heavy-Upset-Forging-Machine-Upsetter-has-never-been-cracked-Re24440
Machines like that are of strategic importance, and Russia's are breaking down.
So it ran for 70 years straight, holy shit. Makes you wonder the type of engineering and quality control they had back then. Has there been any info whether they received the refurbished one back already?
i doubt it, it's probably just a really big machine with incredibly loose tolerances and not a lot of moving parts, there's no way something complex is kept running by russians for that long.
>Has there been any info whether they received the refurbished one back already?
No, they never got it back, it's sitting in a warehouse in Ohio for sale.
>Has there been any info whether they received the refurbished one back already?
it's not going back to russia kek. TrueForge bought it.
t. forging industry
they have a 75,000 ton press operated by VSMPO and they sold one to France, now operated by Aubert Duval.
>oops it was made by Ukrainians
https://www.gasparini.com/en/blog/world-largest-hydraulic-presses/
>they have a 75,000 ton press operated by VSMPO and they sold one to France, now operated by Aubert Duval.
>oops it was made by Ukrainians
Frog here. It's 65,000 tonnes, not 75. It was indeed built at Novokramatorsk in Ukraine by Novokramatorsky Mashinostroitelny Zavod (NKMZ). It is located at Issoire in France.
here's a Le Monde press article from that time.
>https://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/1977/01/13/a-issoire-m-giscard-d-estaing-va-inaugurer-la-plus-grosse-presse-hydraulique-d-europe-occidentale_3081179_1819218.html
There's a picture of it in your link, here's another one. It's notably used to make Airbus landing gears from steel and titanium alloys.
https://www.gasparini.com/en/blog/world-largest-hydraulic-presses/
Cool thread. Never thought I'd come to /k/ to learn about "strategic" presses.
here is a cool old DOD film about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ50nZU3oG8
Thank you anon, I thoroughly enjoyed that.
Thanks anon. That was a comfy watch.
Heavy presses and their friends, are one of the coolest things about mil stuff, and basically our modern world. Without them, no modern airframes, massive industrial machines like those giant strip miners, and lol goodbye propeller shafts for container ships and other ships of the sameish size.
But ya there are very few of these machines relative to their importance in the world, and even fewer nations capable of building them.
A lot of things you don't realize become strategic. Farming for example which is why Europe will always rely on the US
Honestly, the most interesting stuff on /k/ is usually only indirectly related to weapons.
The reason it didn't go back is sanctions?
Or did they never plan to send it back?
If it is sanctions what stops a country like Kazakhstan that is not sanctioned from buying it and reselling it to Russia or buying it and make the components and sell them to Russia at a profit?
Since it has been sitting in a warehouse for a long time wouldn't they sell it cheap?
The Machine that made the Yamatos gun barrels was imported from Germany to Japan in 1938 and put out of service in 2013. They made some damn durable stuff back then.
>The Machine that made the Yamatos gun barrels was imported from Germany to Japan in 1938 and put out of service in 2013
How many 18'' gun barrels did they need between 1945 to 2013?
None, but those kind of machinery can basically make every long, round metal part you want. For what i read, they made drive shafts for ship with it after the war.
You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
while I am sure it was a well made machine, It was also probably the machine of Theseus by its end.
It always amazes me how the entire US Military industrial complex is built of 6 industrial presses built in the 1950s.
Talk about National Level Assets, these things are more valuable than a CVN
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program
ehhhhhhhhhhhh, during wartime yes. Outside of wartime no. We have 6 of them because thats all we need. So if we have time to replace a broken one then its not that bad. If not then it is.
Yeah, those are fascinating, the video anon linked above is really interesting.
Pretty much this
If they all disappeared tomorrow we'd just build more. Idra makes ~16,000 ton die casting presses for Tesla, (and others now) and while those are pretty new and exciting it's certainly not some magical thing we've forgotten to do.
Not only that, based on history, the US would swing its commercial industries into military ones. So, for your example, if one of those 6 presses went down, or more were needed, that massive press would be rented from Telsa, or one of the dozens of auto OEM / auto suppliers that have similar.
That's one of the reasonss (or excuses) that US used to justify bailing out General Motors in 2009.
And it's the reason there's all the focus on re-shoring IC production and chip fab to US or at least near-shore. For all the bluster about AI and fast chips, it's about availability of the basic stuff too. I think there was a wakeup call in the US military establishment when the domestic OEMs went out of production on chip shortages, and realization that military production would be likewise impacted in any serious conflict. Esp since much of it's such a contested area, Taiwan.
>Makes you wonder the type of engineering and quality control they had back then
turns out the more basic your shit is, the longer it can work
>Grug club not rust, not need sharpening, grow on tree
>newfangle sword need find shiny rock, need smelting in furnace, shaping by blacksmith, sharpening and oiling
>sword silly tool promoted by military-industrial complex
>what think of next? use dangerous chemical that blow up in face to throw rock when arm do?
The big difference between engineering today and engineering back then is life cycle planning
Back in the day you just designed your shit to be as tough as possible and let it run for as long as needed- the Vickers machine gun, for example, is designed to be capable of firing indefinitely rather than having a predetermined life time total of rounds to be fired before failure.
This has the advantage of making your stiff remarkably tough and long lasting, but comes with the cost of inefficiencies stemming from resource and capability expenditure.
If you design a build a bridge to stay up as long as possible, then when it gets torn down in twenty years all that additional work and material has been wasted.
Design your bridge to last for twenty four years instead (it is always important to include a safety factor in your design, with convention dictating 1.2 times the requested tolerances) then you are going to experience significantly lower costs and may even find yourself with enough resources left over to build a second bridge
>quality control
They didn't really do QC the way we do now. Engineering had to get lean over the last few years, mostly due to accountants. If you proposed some of these designs today you'd be laughed at for not making it as lean as possible. Modern designs don't last as long sure, but they're much faster to build and you can probably make 2 instead of 1 for the same cost.
Yeah, you got it right. Since we have much more advanced calculation methods and simply computers, we can maximize cost effectiveness of a machine. Much of these machines that last seemingly forever usually had to compromise somewhere in order to get that long lasting effect. That may be in weight, size, tolerances, increased maintenance, etc.
Do not be tricked by a salesman that says X machine will last forever. Everything that moves or interacts with something that moves needs maintenance. Hell, things that don't move at all need maintenance. It is a reality that people refuse to acknowledge exists. This goes with electric cars, gas cars, old cars, new cars. Everything needs to be maintained because something has to move, something heats up, something gets shaken and eventually, that thing breaks.
>usually had to compromise somewhere in order to get that long lasting effect. That may be in weight, size, tolerances, increased maintenance, etc.
>increased maintenance
>once every century
>a full overhaul is the only maintenance it will ever need
Yes anon, never do an oil change and only replace parts of your engine when they break.
>mostly due to accountants
buddy, we're only here to tell you what is in the realm of possibility
we do not control the rise and fall of the economy
especially when we're not the ones making the big budgeting decisions
I think it's just so massive that the moving parts can handle a LOT of wear. The smaller something is the more delicate it is.
Another thing to consider is the massive brain drain that happened/is happening. Gotta have decent or even competent machinists to run this shit, I'd imagine.
>be russia
>have already suffered constant brain-drain since the 90's
>almost every single person that has an important competency with enough money to leave, does
>start moronic war
>mobilize your own people in a panick
>even more people that were useful to your economy, young, competent and with money, leave.
>all of the ones too poor to stay start getting conscripted into your meatgrinder, never to return.
>along with having less/more expensive parts to keep up maintainance and industry, you now have even less people than you had before to work with them.
pretty nasty for them
*too poor to leave
>brain-drain
Someone post that video showing the welds on a factory new bukhanka
>New Beginning Covenant
>Crucifix
probably a little foretelling for this particular piece of gear
Don't forget Kalisnikov is still using winchester button press rifling machines that were bought by the Czar and refurbished during lend lease.
>...and if you have several million you can buy it yourself:
>https://www.trueforge.com/View/9-National-High-Duty-Heavy-Upset-Forging-Machine-Upsetter-has-never-been-cracked-Re24440
If I ever win the lottery I probably wont tell anyone...
...but there will be signs...
i was going to mention
in my post
but i didn't have any articles about it on hand, thanks anon.
do you know of any other examples of big industrial machinery like this that the soviet union/russia never actually learned to make themselves?
I'm pretty sure they are quite far behind with the big closed-die presses for working nonferrous alloys. They had some big machines they got from Germany after WWII but AFAIK they never developed anything like this:
Yes, there's countless examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba%E2%80%93Kongsberg_scandal
tl:dr; importing advanced multi-axis milling machine to gain the ability to make quieter submarine propellers.
Donetsk city itself was developed into an industrial center by British investor's.
Not just big machinery. There were news reports about decreased rolling stock availability on russian railways because they couldn't source enough bearings on domestic market. The three major manufacturers in Russia were joint ventures with Western partners (Timken, Brenko and SKF) that all ceased manufacture in line with sanctions. Roller bearings are not an unknown technology to Russians, of course, and the state can nationalize those businesses, but in that case they would still run into problems relaunching manufacture, sourcing components and replacing lost know-how.
Assembly using foreign parts vs full production is another issue. Rail cassette bearings are pretty cool but shitty ones wear quickly and replacing them isn't hard but it's not fast either.
Worn bearings overheating require immediate replacement so the car must be removed from the train for swapping trucks then the truck is taken for repair:
The vast majority of "new" vehicles that Russia has been sending to fight in Ukraine are actually refurbs of ex-Soviet vehicles that have been mothballed. I haven't read anything to indicate they're casting/welding new hulls and turrets for various vehicles. By far the biggest industrial problem Russia has right now are getting ball bearings. In an industrial or mechanical setting, think of anything that would need to spin or rotate - it probably uses ball bearings. Pre-conflict, Russia imported half of it's ball bearings from western countries, sanctions took all of that away and now there is a shortage that won't resolve until new factory(s) are built (China can't bail them out on this one).
Making ball bearings is a White Man™ skill. New factories will not be built.
China can't make ball bearings?
>China can't make ball bearings
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=China+can%27t+make+ball+bearings&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Basically only the Swedes, Germans and Nips make ball bearings worth a damn. It's been that way for a long time (look how hard the Germans worked to import bearings from Sweden in WW2, for example), and unironically requires a lot of very good tooling and skilled labor.
>muh sanctions
>muh ball bearings
lets be real here. they probably buy them via neutral third parties. some company in uzbekistan buys ball bearings from germany and then sends them over to russia. its probably as simple as that.
Of course they do. But do you think uzbekistan wants rubles? Or that uzbekistan can buy enough of these without getting sanctioned itself to make a large enough difference. Doubtful, and russia is running out of foreign currencies. This isnt everyones first time sanctioning someone. Some amount of sanctioned goods will always make it in. Enough to produce a modern armies worth of gear with not a chance.
>do you think uzbekistan wants rubles?
russia is a commodity giant, i think they have plenty of what other nations want. even the EU countries are still buying natural gas from russia, the pipelines going through ukraine are working at full capacity.
>some company in uzbekistan buys ball bearings from germany and then sends them over to russia
a lot of companies in the west simply skip the middleman and register a legal entity in Asia under a different name to trade with Russia directly. Sanctions are an utter meme at this point
a lot of companies in the west just outright didnt stop trading with russia. Russian merchant ships dock wherever all the time
>Sanctions are an utter meme
they work
>Almost all the production of metal alloys with rare earths (and the mines as well) is in China
because the Chinese are selling off their reserves cheap at the moment
there are REM deposits in the Western hemisphere (in the US and Australia mainly) but why draw down on those while the enemy is happily selling you the output from his mines?
generally however you are right that a lot of manufacturing has been outsourced, but unlike the case of the Russians, the nature of that outsourcing is to offshore the factories which are designed, built and run by Americans
Americans retain the knowledge to design, build and run new factories if they have to
that's different from all other countries who are literally incapable of doing so
>Russia indeed can make it
>they are buying machinery and components from china for making what electronics they can't make
so they can't in fact make it
>Their "production" is a process of refurbishing/upgrading
We know
>they work
Not really. Black folk just look the other way and pretend not to notice how some places like Uzbekistan and Armedia suddenly started importing 10-30x the amount of shit.
>We know
Most people are clueless and think those T-90, T-72B3 and other tanks are actual new production.
Even when Americans don't have that knowledge and have to cooperate (see: Ford working with a worst Korean tech firm to build the battery portions of the largest vehicle manufacturing plant on Earth in Tennessee) they, shockingly, are friends with countries that have those capabilities.
and it's not like Tesla is technologically unable to do that, it's just that SK does it cheap and Ford obviously cannot work with its rival
>they probably buy them via neutral third parties
true, but the problem for Russia here is that there's going to be a substantial mark-up for the middlemen to make a profit, as well as premiums for the risk of sanctions they take-on by dealing with Russia. This makes the supplies that Russia needs exceedingly more expensive, and given the fact their own currency is practically worthless at this point, their only options are to either deplete their foreign currency reserves to purchase them, or trade commodities such as oil that they would've otherwise used to restore said reserves and generate revenue. While sanctions don't necessarily remove Russia's capabilities to acquire materials, they do make it prohibitively expensive, and generally makes their economy even shittier than it already is.
>t. finance major
Ball bearings are something that requires a lot of precision tooling with no room for error, but are also everywhere and needed in high quantities. You can't just shit out ten thousand a year and be competitive. You need enormous factories with tight tolerances dumping tens of millions out the door every year. China can't do that, because you can't skimp out on a ball bearing. It's either the correct steel and round, or it's shit steel and not round and explodes into dust when you actually try to use it (something that will not fly for industrial products, unlike consumer ones).
>I haven't read anything to indicate they're casting/welding new hulls and turrets for various vehicles
AFAIK they do new welded turrets on _some_ of the T-90 tanks, but that's like the only exception
Afaik only one factory has the equipment & expertise for that welding.
I think it's UralVagonZavod [UZV]. Could be wrong on which one.
(me)
Dug up a clearer schematic for the T-90 welded assembly
Aight picture this kiddo
>you run a lemonade stand
>you hand press the lemons to make it
>you buy lemons from the store
>one day you kick the neighbor kid repeatedly
>the store owner says you can't buy lemons no more because he runs a bully free store
>no more lemons, no more lemonade
>We'll make carrot juice! Your sanctions are just hurting yourself.
>we make juice of potatoes)) westerners get frozen lemohomonade for the winter))
You joke but this is literally a puccian's idea of opulence.
>>We'll make carrot juice
And as much hamsters as one could eat
Another example of strategically important machinery is large boring mills like picrel. You need these to make turret rings, bulkheads for submarines, parts for ship engines, etc. Russia has some it got from Lend-lease years ago, it has others it took from Germany as reparations after WWII....but how many of them are in serviceable condition now?
i don't think we have, why do you always create strawmen to attack instead of criticising people /k/ directly, we're right here.
where have we said the russian army has been destroyed multiple times over? can you give us a source?
goddamn the T-64, T-72, T-80 and T-90 are aesthetic tanks.
yes, watching one explode and toss the turret and occupants 100 meters into the air in a huge fireball is truly a thing of beauty
>why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them?
Factories and information storage mediums decay and rot if you don't actually actively maintain them, and Russia has been desperately poor for the last 35 years, yes actually too poor to do stuff like that
also too poor to fully keep up with modern tech developments
and too poor to teach the new generation while the older generation dies of old age
>What exactly can they no longer produce?
Large surface ships
Electronics
Ball bearings
>It seems they have no problem making ammo, and missiles, and artillery and other munitions
Most of that is pretty basic; missile guidance systems they steal Western electronics
>production on those should be rolling soon
It's been "rolling soon" for the past 10 years
>They can still make naval ships
only small ones, they have been struggling with building even quite basic 9,000-ton ships (the Ivan Gren class) and >10,000-ton is right out
>submarines
is the one area where they spent a huge amount of resources just like in the old days, and even then, they have a couple laid up for lack of funding and they keep changing their production plans and having to iterate new designs - sign of unforeseen errors being revealed in operations
>What problem presents?
They're unable to make significant numbers of 21st century stuff
Imagine being told "you can make any weapon you like, so long as it runs off a Nokia 3310 circuit board, and you're gonna be fighting iPhone 15s with that"
>Civil War (the communist party fights against internal and external enemies to control the country)
>Stabilization (a rebound thanks to peace and western investment allowing to formalize the regime)
>Stalin's reign (decimation and destruction of assets and populations until Stalin is forced to back down many of his policies)
>World War 2 (The Soviet Union is nearly annihilated, only western economic support and total disregard for human losses manage to revert the situation)
>Soviet Golden Age (capitalizing on acquired western assets and "the triumph of communism over fascism", the soviets expand to the point of directly controlling a third of the planet and temporally having the upper hand over the West)
>The Stagnation (oil prices collapse, can't sustain international subsidies, electronics invalidate strategy of overwhelming numbers)
>Soviet Collapse (retreat from former buffer territories, abandonment of high technologies, overall political and economic collapse)
>The 90's (failed attempts at implementing liberal capitalism, communist leadership recycled into oligarchs)
>Putin's regime (new period of stabilization thanks to high demand of oil, re-emergence of new technologies)
>The dislocation (new breakaway with the West, territorial wars to recreate buffer states, overall decline of national conditions)
>The Era of War (Botched attempt at capturing previous geopolitical assets, slow transition into a state of total war)
We are here
>The Fragmentation (With all its national indicators reaching critical point the Russian Federation implodes, beginning a Succession War)
eventually you'll have russians driving around 300 year old T-72s composed of irreplaceable lostech, with a gun aimed entirely by instinct because the gun sight broke 200 years prior
<---
It's already happening.
I love Escape From Tarkov
>Ball bearings
How? How do you fail at basic industrialization so much you can't make ball bearings? Jesus Christ.
They can make ball bearings
They can't make high-spec high-performance military-grade ball bearings
They can't make tractors either; they buy zetor kits from the czech and assemble them in russia, then call it a russian tractor.
The reason they can't make shit is because previously they could buy it from the west and relabel it as russian. Thus satisfying the "made in russia" requirement. Since doing so was cheaper in the short term than building up the required production capacity, it's what they did and pocketed the difference.
A tractor is just a car with one set of big wheels, there's no way they can't make that shit themselves
>Since doing so was cheaper
It's not about cheapness, it's about no business willing to invest with long-term planning, because they know that any real private business inside russia is always on thin ice: it could be taken away from you just like that any day for shits and giggles. Among other reasons.
Because the front fell off
This is like seeing Model Ts being made at a Tesla production plant.
Wtf is this?
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
The world progresses, in russia technology regresses. There is only lost technology, a category of arcane doodads and gadgets made by inhuman hands that only increases for every decade in russia.
yes which is why you have to keep screaming it at the top of your lungs right? other wise nobody notices it apparently, not even the russian propagandists see it.
Anon, they could technically make anything, it's about effectiveness. A tank is relatively simple. It's the small parts that make a tank more effective and efficient that are missing, since they used to import them from western countries. They could probably build 10k tanks if they truly wanted to by the end of the year but they would all be outperformed by a single well maintained T-34-85. Russia can't make properly modernized equipment and are slipping further and further into early cold war technology.
> slipping further and further into early cold war technology
If they keep slipping will they slip into WW1 technology eventually? I want cheap Mosins on the market again
>I want cheap Mosins on the market again
PPSh for everyone!
xaxax holy rossiy doesnt need HATO wunderwaffen technology only hard pelmeni and strong will will conquer decadent wectern HATO ass xaxaxa*~~))
Well, from what I know they're supplying Donbabwe with WW1 and WW2 era equipment, so I guess it's just a matter of how far their production capabilities will be degraded in the future.
>Black folk get free Russian surplus and I don’t
I vaguelly remember a decent number of pre-WW2 trucks being spotted around adviika a few months back
They use foot wraps instead of socks, anon, it's already closer than you think.
The mosin and Slav shit in general are being held back by export bans and import bans. That's why shit was being sold to Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc to be sold later to the US. There are other things that fricked us over though outside of that, like 7n6 being reclassified as AP even though it's mild steel because some gay gay c**t company broke the gentleman's agreement to not make a 5.45 pistol, and the ban on barrel imports in demilled kits.
If they could produce what they claim, t14 would be in full swing and would indeed be the most advanced and best tank in the world.
But its a bmp with a cardboard body kit and gen 4 russian optics and fcs (western post war equvilent)
Russia lost a lot of domestic production capability after the Soviet union collapsed. First, many factories weren't in Russia to begin with but in other SSRs which are now foreign countries. For example, Ukraine has Kharkiv, the famous plant the T34 came from. East German had the old Zeiss factory, captured at the end of WW2 and the source for most high quality Soviet optics. Kazakhstan has the main orbital launch complex for the Soviets. Russia now rents it. But Russia also had many industries atrophy and collapse from market forces. During the cold war the West aligned world traded with the west. And the Soviet aligned world traded with the Soviets. So they duplicated many things. When that ended the former Soviet factories had a very hard time competing with cheaper and better western goods and went under. This is especially true for electronics. The Soviets were behind but what domestic production they had was completely wiped out in the 90's/ Everyone was using Windows PCs with Intel CPUs.
Even if they cannot produce enough tanks to compensate the losses they can just buy from else. Best Korea has thousands laying around that won't be needed anytime soon
Nork tanks getting blown up in Ukraine would not only be hilarious but likewise truly cement Russia as a failed state and third rate military power.
you're not going to post the picture with your cope?
>Like I don't understand, why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them?
A good chunk of the stuff they used to make had components or whole vehicles made outside of what is today Russia.
For example their A-50 AWACS were produced in Uzbekistan. All of their larger surface vessels were made in Ukrainian shipyards. The engine for the Mi-28 Havoc were made in Ukraine also. Tu-16 bombers were produced in Georgia. Then there's the issue that a lot of factories making components in Russia went bust during the 90s and 2000s. To compensate that Russia would buy components from the West but that's become a lot more difficult due to sanctions.
Even Russia’s space program is dependent on their foreign vassals. They paid Kazakhstan to use their launch facility until it was seized in 2023.
>shipyards
Ukraine making new USN Vessels would be frickin hilarious.
>Like I don't understand, why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them? What exactly can they no longer produce? It seems they have no problem making ammo, and missiles, and artillery and other munitions. Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon. They can still make naval ships and planes and fricking submarines and stuff. What problem presents?
>production on those should be rolling soon
kek
Can't the Russians keep just rolling off T-90Ms? It's a solid and proven fricking tank!
Yes, it can be disabled with 25mm High Explosive rounds.
Why retake crimea if the enemy is killing themselves?
It is only wise to wait.
>hahha see hato scum you just admitted russia stronkest nation in worlder
Why is ukraine still free then?
The war started with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Its bizarre how ziggers are trying to spin this as some sort of Ukrainian failure because they haven't recovered Crimea yet.
>production on those should be rolling soon
any time now, we just have to be patient
fricking moron, lmao
>produce
The T-62 ended production 51 years ago.
So you're trying to say that the fact Russia failed to achieve a single strategic objective after two years of fighting is actually a failure on Ukraine's part because they haven't taken Crimea? Am I understanding this correctly?
One thing that occurred to me was in Soviet times they would do as little work as possible. Anyone who tried to go above and beyond would get talked to. I have read many biographies and seen interviews where it was discussed by former workers, so it has to be at least partially true.
What I wondered was if this went on at arms plants.
The other part is people in the analogue, pre-internet society guarded their work "secrets."
If you were the only one that actually knew what he was doing you could not be fired. So it was pure hell getting them to teach you something most of the time.
So all of that knowledge could easily be lost by just having a handful of men die.
>he thinks we are in a post-trade-secret world
I bought some troony pills that were made in russia
You're still not explaining how Russia completely failing in its invasion of Ukraine is a Ukranian failure.
>You literally said Ukraine didn’t even need to take it back.
I said no such thing you monkey.
Didn't Russian tank production always one of nTiobal strengths?
>if i say ukraine lost for the 50th time today, it may actually come true
not how it works champ.
Because most of that stuff was made in Ukraine. Why do you think they want to conquer Ukraine so bad?
Building this aerospace press, required a half dozen countries, years of time, and the expertise of thousands. could you imagine russia building something like this today?
1. Corruption. Yes, the US MIC are also corrupt but they at least make sure a product is manufactured however overpriced.
2. Inefficiency. Russia has frick old outdated factories made worse by item 1.
3. Shitty workers. Russia has a demographics problem with young men dying young. This war is not helping
4. Sanctions. All the high tech materials are sanctioned which adds to inefficiency
>They can still make naval ships
Dont they buy the engines from germany?
Why can't they just fricking build their own engines?
during the Cold War, the plants were in Poland and Ukraine
after the Cold War, it was cheaper to import them than to setup domestic manufacturing in what is now Russia
if you're American, you need to realise that the USA (and maybe China) is the only country that can build up its entire army inventory with control of the entire supply chain from raw material to finished product
if you're not American, you need to realise that the Russian situation is the norm not the exception, and even the major European NATO countries get along by buying from each other
china actually can't quite because they import a very large portion of their iron, as well as things of relatively lower importance like coal and, iirc, copper
the problem with China is that they lie so much it's hard to tell what level they really are at
in any case it's prudent, in the absence of better information, to treat them as the threat they appear to be
which is still substantial - never underestimate what 1.4 billion people could be capable of, industrially. it only takes one brilliant emperor, 1 million determined nationalists, and about 25 years to create a technocentric nation dedicated to killing its enemies in the most scientific way possible, devoid of the political infighting and greed that currently hamstrings their ambitions
>coal
they have access through Russia now to so much cheap energy they don't know what to do with it and are exporting a massive surplus in refined petroleum products
Name me a single modern emperor or dictator that has accomplished this? You can't because this type of government is anathema to intellectual expansion and competition.
>this type of government is anathema to intellectual expansion and competition
broadly speaking you're correct, however China has come up with a hybrid model (actually the socialist model of Marx's dreams, but actually executed better than the USSR ever managed to)
China under Deng Xiaoping then Hu Jintao achieved a SIGNIFICANT "great leap forward" in civil and military technology, without (apparently) loosening the political reins too much. that history cannot be denied. so what concerns me is that they might do it again.
nta but the argument isn't that autocracy isn't capable of making great strides, it's that all decisions, good or bad, are left uncheck. and finding brilliant leaders and putting a massive team with a limitless budget behind them is basically the game of corporate capitalism. and despite having all the incentives and will to get it right there's no clear evidence that these people, no matter how smart, have the ability to see past the horizon of technology's future past random chance.
as for whether they can continue the streak, their aggressive posturing is indication that their not so confident of it themselves. baring teeth and barking isn't something the confident concern themselves with, so the fact that they feel that they need to just shows that they're compensating for something.
>>if you're American, you need to realise that the USA (and maybe China) is the only country that can build up its entire army inventory with control of the entire supply chain from raw material to finished product
Unfortunately the US is practically relying on china for a stupidly large amount of components.
Almost all the production of metal alloys with rare earths (and the mines as well) is in China and those are extremely important in production of almost all the US military machines.
Recently even more military components were found to be sourced indirectly from china trough contractors that "made it in the USA" but the requirements for US made are rather loose so they practically did 90% of the production in China and only the minimum necessary to meet the requirements in the US.
Even if most of these are small and somewhat irrelevant components I wouldn't be surprised that in case of a war with China half of the US MIC would suddenly find out that their subcontractors of their subcontractors have raw materials or components sourced from china.
>the US isn't mining
Yes. Because the chinks are selling theirs for cheap. So we get rare earth metals without destroying the environment. The US if needed could extract those, but it doesn't need to.
fetal alcohol syndrome and brain drain please understand
modern engines need a lot of specialized tools that take a highly educated population base to produce domestically.
all the smart people in russia moved to nato countries where they would be paid competitively and not have to worry about falling out a window for being too competent.
>>They can still make naval ships
>Dont they buy the engines from germany?
They even ordered whole icebreakes at some kraut shipyard after they fricked up building the first of the series themselves
You'd think icebreakers are something they have ample experience with
>T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon
yes soon but not too soon
Because Russia makes nothing only sadness!
I know everyone makes fun of the T-14, but what went wrong with it? Didn't they build this in Russia from the ground up, so not depending on external parts or old Soviet bloc manufacturing?
>what went wrong with it?
small problem of sitting on a Doesn't Actually Exist / Isn't Anywhere Near The Paper Specs tier somewhere between the Lider class destroyers and Su-57 Felon
if you read about the recovery of the Bradley trophy, it's a lot like Succession State armies fighting over Lostech
>combat recovery teams and asset denial teams firing artillery barrages at each other
>attempts to destroy the prized object in question
>can't actually reverse engineer this shit
>put in on display in not-NAIS
>continue building shitboxes
>continue building shitboxes
Grim
Imagine Ukraine and Rheinmetall stealing the Armata and fixing her so she can be added to the West tankgirls harem:
>You may seen your memories.
>Before my soul, my messiah
>In messiah date a love
>He wanna hear "he is our (only?)prayer"
>Soon it'll be our time
>OUR TIME, OUR TIME (AHIH)
Damn, come to think now that I was looking a the pics of my local tournament he would have past as another fa/tg/uy
I have always wondered about this, effectively when analyzed you can see fascism basically hijacked 2 western nations (Germany and Japan) and capitalized on their achievements until they ran out, it was the same with the Soviet Union, they were heavily dependent on industrial espionage and importing western technologies, just like China, in the end no totalitarian state has been able to keep up.
All right, let's be honest for a bit, Russia won't be capable to recover itself in 20 years time, let alone 5, the arabs are still a joke dependent on "the West must play by western rules" and China isn't going to achieve technological parity, but MIC needs to keep at least one bogeyman to stay ahead and well funded.
In their arrogance the russians attempted to build a heavy MBT featuring all the technologies used both by the West and them, but due sanctions and technological decline the core engine of this war machine wasn't strong enough to sustain her, she was born defective, her heart too weak for the burden their creators had place upon her.
She is now locked away, empty eyed and broken, another reminder of the follies of the moscovites...
But, who knows, perhaps in a not so distant future a worthier inheritor of slav armored warfare may rescue her and use western technologies to make her whole so she can avenge herself from her former masters.
>Gun was german
>Optics french
>Transmission and electronics used Italian and Spanish components on top of the other 2
>Literally the only "Russian" parts were the chassis and engine.
>Engine actually used EU components too.
>Chassis used steel composite imported from EU too.
Basically, that tank was 90% outdated/civilian-grade EU components bought and then built as if it was an ikea kit by the Russians.
What about the 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV? These look fricking badass and can counter anything Nato has!
https://twitter.com/TheHumanFund5/status/1749055338446197134
>I have heard lots of claims that Russia can no longer make this or that military asset. Like I don't understand, why would they not be able to keep making them if they previously made them? What exactly can they no longer produce? It seems they have no problem making ammo, and missiles, and artillery and other munitions. Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon. They can still make naval ships and planes and fricking submarines and stuff. What problem presents?
The Soviet Union could make all that stuff. Russia literally let much of what it inherited from the Soviet Union be sold off due to corruption and many of the truly genius tier engineers that came out of the USSR simply migrated away to other countries during the tumultuous collapse and economic despair that followed in the 1990s. The high end parts in most modern Russian arms are imported. Russia simply no longer has bleeding edge domestic industry. Russia is now less industrially sophisticated than Mexico.
all people with a degree left after the fall of USSR, and the lack of money mean most of their assembly line stopped working and with lack of maintenance broke down. What they have left is what they managed to keep running during this dark time. Everything else is forgotten tech. Same way NASA has to rebuild a lunar program from practically nothing.
I know one thing. Fighter jet canopies were ordered from France. Then the latest sanctions kicked in.
The Russians apparently struggle with making polycarbonate that doesn't have air bubbles in it.
tbf making a thick, curved piece of plexi that doesn't warp your vision to look through is not at all trivial. I remember talking with some vendor at a defense contractor event showing off the curved 'glass used for F16. It's super thick and no optical variation as you look through it.
Gr8 thread considering what started it off
They were very kind to show us that they can't make a tank. This one has been waiting for 3 years at least.
A good example can be found looking up the Buran.
Russia used to be able to make space shuttles but in the 90s the country trying to switch from communism to capitalism suffered a great economic crash and a lot of costly factories were simply abandoned.
If you look at the Buran factory today it could probably be restarted but it would cost almost as much as making a new factory from scratch.
The Buran is practically an hybrid between a plane and a missile and many missile factories and other weapons factories closed during the 90s as they were expensive and Russia lost a lot of subservient countries in east Europe that used to buy (had to buy) their military products.
Also many factories where located outside of Russia in eastern Europe, those factories made components for Russian factories and also often closed breaking the supply chains.
Ultimately only few factories where left functional and even those had very few orders because all those countries that left the Soviet block sold much of their old Soviet weapons cheap flooding the market.
East Germany alone sold almost it's entire stockpiles.
Factories in Russia couldn't compete with everyone dumping the same goods they made at super cheap prices during a time of peace so even those that survived were scaled back to much smaller factories.
Most of the factories left focused on refurbishing old Soviet weapons for selling it to poor foreign countries that needed weapons on the cheap like India or Africa.
Also Russia abandoned the development of several expensive/complicated components because it was cheaper to buy them from countries like France or China than making them in Russia further deteriorating the supply chain.
Now Russia still has a considerable manufacturing capability for some components like ammunition and shells as those are fast consumption items that still had demand after the fall of the Soviet union.
>factories were simply abandoned.
They wren't abandoned anon. They were distributed to former party member, who didn't know shit about running an bussiness, so they instead chose to make a quick buck by taring the factory down and selling the rebar for scrapp.
Regarding the T-14 Russia indeed can make it. The main reason it never did is that nobody wanted to buy it and for Russia to mass produce only for itself it would be an enormous cost, please remember that Russia GDP is smaller than Italy.
So with no international buyers the project stalled over and over as the funds from the Russian government have very likely been partially siphoned off due to the endemic corruption of the Russian mic. Also the project was rather reliant on imports that now Russia need to make itself or buy from china.
However of there is will there is a way and now the Russian government is throwing money at the problem so they are buying machinery and components from china for making what electronics they can't make and enough money poured into the T-14 would mean that they won't need foreign partners to bring them to production.
However it could also be likely that the T-14 project is further shelved to prioritize other projects as money isn't unlimited and the T-14 was a tank designed in response to the Abrams successes in Iraq against the previous T series tanks.
However right now we can see that tanks vs tanks battles are so extremely rare that having T-14s instead of T-90Ms would make little to no difference on the battlefield as both get knocked out by mines and javelins.
It might make more sense to spend the money and effort instead on developing APS systems that can be installed on the T-72/T90 tanks and tank mounted EW systems to stop drones first.
>It might make more sense to spend the money and effort instead on developing APS systems that can be installed on the T-72/T90 tanks and tank mounted EW systems to stop drones first.
This, it's obvious nowadays more than tank vs tank battles the fight is going to be how well tanks are capable to defend themselves from man and drone portable munitions as well as artillery rounds, drones are already shifting the armored warfare paradigm, widespread APS and EW is going to further provoke changes into doctrines.
>having T-14s instead of T-90Ms would make little to no difference on the battlefield
For starters, at least on paper, the crew survivability in the T-14 should be much better.
>whats their problem
Apart from being low IQ orcs? According to the ukies they lack the ability to produce more complicated electorincs needed for current gen tanks. Hell some captured russian tanks didnt even have hermetically sealed electrical so shit like radios regularly broke. One they cracked open was full of condensation.
Optics, sensors, and high tech components that relied on western imports are the main reason. Sourcing the materials while under stringent sanctions has slowed production. It’s the main reason that Russia is refurbishing more T-54s instead of T-64s. T-64 and T-72, despite having far more hulls lying around, have more complex electronics that Russia is struggling to source. This is exacerbated by the need for mechanical components for civilian and military industry, which has suffered greatly under the sudden increase in demand for war fighting material. Poor morale and lack of motivation on the Homefront (soaring prices for food, cars, and gas) makes the average Russian care less about fighting the poorest country in Europe, and more about making it through the week. Their industrial base is on the struggle bus, and they have few allies to turn to for donations.
There is too much to discuss, if you want an honest response. But I'll address just this one point here:
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
They planned to have two thousand of them by 2020. They don't even have fifty working tanks. The inherent reason is because they can't afford it because it's an actual new tank and new production, and they can't cheap out on it, because it doesn't share shit with old tech.
The program (it isn't even about the T-14 tank, it's the whole family of vehicles) was designed in a different time for russia, where they had more and more money each year. Like literal shower of money. Each year oil got more and more expensive, they got more and more revenue. So they've literally extrapolated the line and planned that oil would cost $200+ per barrel. This program was one of the projects which was done assuming basically unlimited funds. Unlimited funds which failed to materialize.
What most people don't realize is that since mid 90s russia didn't actually produce new tanks. Their "production" is a process of refurbishing/upgrading existing tanks: you tank a basic T-72, upgrade some bits and boom you have a "newly produced" T-72B3, you invest a bit more in upgrades and boom you have a "newly produced" T-90 and so on. A lot of that "production" was literally tanks being taken from the army and deployed back into the army. So you have numbers like "we've produced 200 new tanks" year after year after year, but then you check the number of active tanks in the army and the number didn't really change kek, because no "new" tanks were actually made.
At best, this sort of refurbishing/upgrading process was done on old shit from storage (like with bare bone T-72s for example), for example for export contracts. This is what they're currently scrambling to do in larger numbers due to all of the losses they encountered.
This is the Achzarit heavy APC. The IDF built it out of a modded T55 chassis. Russia would have lost many fewer mobiks if they'd converted some of their paper skinned BMPs into APCs using their surplus T55 and T72 hulls.
A FPV drone with RPG warhead would probably still pen but it would be proof against the basic nade droppers and heavy artillery fragments which wreck regular BMPs.
Russia's aware of the concept. They had the Bmo-T but they didn't move the engine or flip the front so there was no rear door.
>paper skinned BMPs
A-ha-ha-ha-ha, oh wow. Bruh, go check the MT-LBs and BMDs instead.
>They had the Bmo-T but they didn't move the engine or flip the front so there was no rear door.
What a shitshow
The MTLB is just a tracked tractor and is probably the best soviet shitbox out there for what it is. While the BMD's are dog shit, they are air deployable so there's an excuse for being made out of aluminium foil.
>The MTLB is just a tracked tractor
Tell that to all people using them as APC
They are just metal boxes.
An UAZ bukhanka van is also a metal box
Difference is the mtlb floats and gets you through terrain impassable even to tanks
Many in russia would say the same thing about bukhanka vans
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RouJtzqjXkU
you don't appreciate the mtlb's low ground pressure
BMP also floats, until it doesn't. Jamie pull up the webm of BMP taking an unintentional dive
fricking moron
What? BMP-1/2 have the same amphibious capability like MTLB. Until the wave breaker...breaks.
They're 100% going back to motorized infantry using trucks, vans and jeeps at some point if this keeps going.
The emeny has…… medal bawxessss XDDDDDDD
the MT-LB refuses to get stuck where other vehicles would
It navigated that no fricking problem! Those things are badass!
ground pressure must be pretty low since it's not weighed down by things like armor.
Frick that is some nasty mud. That things basically Russian Navy at this point.
ngl that's pretty cool. still wouldn't want to be even near one when bullets are flying
Look at her go!
The BMD is best understood as a Toyota Hilux Technical that has taken great pains to look like some kinda IFV thing.
Hell it even has a truck bed in the back... except worse of course, because there's no gate.
wew
>It's chonky and the RWS has huge clearance over the rest of the vehicle.
I like it. And if they want to go big-money and load up the top deck with APS or a radar + generator, they've got the space.
Clean lines and flat surfaces lend themselves well to future-proofing.
One of the several factors making T-series upgrades a challenge is its pan-shaped base turret. Finally with T-90 they gave up on that and started welding planes together.
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
What dimension did you jump from, OP?
You know these things cost money right?
Beside that Ukraine were the ones with most of the factories, Russia can build.... Soviet era stuff.
They can barely go into new technologies.
Even now I'm betting China are the one providing them with all their computer chips because they couldn't make their own factories.
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
I hope you are a false flag, cause that's the worst example you could have chosen.
That tank is made of everything they can't import anymore and as tech go it wasn't really impressive either. It's certainly not reliable, if I remember its engines is still a mod of a old WWII German tank.
The issues with T-14 isn't even the imported components, but fricked production capacity, engineering schools and so on. And money. Imported shit was just a crutch for some of the issues they had.
>its engines is still a mod of a old WWII German tank.
>Good old V-2 Nothing beats that.
>engines is still a mod of a old WWII German tank
That's an unsubstantiated claim, for better or worse considering the tank is still a mess.
The armata's A-85-3-A is an X-engine just like the german Sla 16 but that doesn't make it a copy and I have yet to see anything to suggest otherwise, although I'm willing to bet that the russians learned everything they knew about X-engines from the captured Sla 16.
>but that doesn't make it a copy and I have yet to see anything to suggest otherwise
You're just a naive westerner who looks at russians as if they're europeans and takes their shit at face value. Of course it's a copy, like no frickin' shit. Most things USSR did were a copy, sometimes official, sometimes not.
>Of course it's a copy
On what basis? That is a X engine? There is nothing to suggest such a thing and I have yet to see any proof to the contrary.
It's just a baseless claim popularized by lazerpig.
According to the same logic all V engines are just copies of the first maybach.
>On what basis? That is a X engine? There is nothing to suggest such a thing and I have yet to see any proof to the contrary.
Bruh, you literally don't know how things were done in the soviet union. The higher ups didn't believe in local engineers (and generally they had a good reason to do so), so that even when indigenous designs were offered as an option, the decision up top would always be to clone a "foreign example". Which led to strange stuff like having a camera on board Tu-4, because one of the crew had left his personal camera on board of the B-29 which the soviets cloned. They literally didn't know what it was for, but they cloned it as much as possible.
So, going back to the engine, it was initially done in the 70s when the soviets had an attempt of big tank modernization. Basically how to improve the original T-72 Ural. There were a few different variants of changes proposed from different factories. A significant factor in many of the options were engine replacements. Including gas turbine engines and yes, an X-engine, which didn't exist at the time. So, this engine was whipped up in record time in 1977 for a project that never went anywhere. Why do you think so? Was that some cool engineering on part of the soviet engineers? Nope, this shit would take 5-10 years at the very least. How do you get a result faster? You copy an existing example. And that's exactly what they did. They've copied the engine that german shit show which they had access to, modifying it where needed. The project didn't go anywhere, but they've already had an engine, so they were desperate to try and push it be used somewhere. The issue was that the engine was shit and it was know even in soviet times.
1/2
This happens for a number of reasons, but copying an inherently shitty engine from the get go helps a lot kek. They didn't care, because the understanding was that those are just teething issues and once it gets a mass user they'll be able to fix things. It didn't happen. So, they fricked around with the engine for decades, not finding a mass buyer for it. Hence all of those attempts to sell it off as an engine for generators, pumps, special purpose vehicles, etc. And that was one of the reasons why it was "chosen" for T-14: they've finally did a new project from scratch (instead of refurbishing and upgrading T-72), hence they could've used anything (previously that engine wasn't used for a T-72 upgrade, because it wouldn't fit and thus would require too many changes in the chassis) and they've decided to finally push the engine onto someone, thinking that any issues would get ironed out during further development.
>It's just a baseless claim popularized by lazerpig.
That homosexual said this because he actually has experience with russians through his pidor ex-boyfriend. He knows what he's saying. Not only that, it's an open secret in the RU mil enthusiast community. Everyone pretends that it's not the case and won't say so, especially to foreigners, but every once in a while people actually say and write that fact, when discussing issues with T-14, even on the biggest RU mil websites (such as topwar), and people don't sperg out there about this fact that much, unlike clueless sovietboo foreigners.
Not only that, but there's other precedent of soviets copying foreign, especially german, engines, including for use in tanks. You can easily google historical shit like how 5TDF was basically "developed" by cloning the Jumo 205 from Junkers.
2/2
>A-85-3-A
Origins aside, What do you think this long-ass multipart nomenclature signifies?
They do long-ass nomenclature for missiles and especially radar too.
Although US radar names can also get fairly long.
Different factories have different naming schemes, but one other note is that the same engine is also known as:
- 2A12-3;
- 12ЧH15/16; (Ch-N in Cyrillic);
- 12H360; (that H a Cyrillic N by the way)
So, it's a total shitshow in terms of naming.
The Russians used codes for military equipment which consists of a number showing the category of equipment, then a letter showing a subcategory, then a number for a specific model, and often a suffix showing variants of the model. For example; combine the codes for army missiles (9), missile systems (K), the specific model (115), and the modernized variant (-2) and you end up with the 9K115-2 Metis-M ATGM.
Thank you so much, if you're still around. I'll be screencappin' this.
>although I'm willing to bet that the russians learned everything they knew about X-engines from the captured Sla 16.
That's the point.
During WWII they recovered a lot from Germany's Sla 16
https://oldmachinepress.com/2018/02/05/sgp-sla-16-porsche-type-203-x-16-tank-engine/
"The majority of Sla 16 parts, tooling, and equipment were captured by the Soviet Union at the end of World War II."
Obviously the SOVIET of old were still able of learning something new from those. The result of that is what was put in the Armata.
So what about the Koalitsiya-SV like someone mentioned? I read it is now ramped up to full production because it passed all field tests. How can they make these, does it not have advanced components? They say they are starting to roll these right up to the Ukranian front now. They also seem very proud of the 80km range.
>full production is an average of 2 vehicles a year
did they mention what "full production" exactly is?
for example, they announced also that they delivered "two batches" of Su-57s in 2023, "double" of production in 2022
in 2022 they claimed they would deliver FOUR Su-57s to the RuAF
did they actually manage to deliver eight Su-57s in 2023?
or when they said "double", did they mean "two batches"?
what is "a batch" in numbers, exactly?
that's media plays with numbers with careful wording
meanwhile Lockheed-Martin in "low rate" production is putting out at least 120 F-35s a year...
I'm still convinced they just put new numbers on old airframes.
It's in the same state of "full production" as the T-14 is. Only on paper.
Two months ago, a staggeringly impressive TWO (2.000,000) of these were spotted on a flatbed rail car.
Truely I am demoralize.
>AYY CYKA BLYAT WARLORD NYET
Koalitsiya snuff webm in 2024 confirmed
they haven't been able to make their new tanks since sanctions for crimea in 2014
the T-80BVM is a 2016 design
the T-72B3M is a 2017 design
the only tank that sanctions managed to stop from being produced was the T-14 and, let's be real here, that thing would've remained a parade vehicle anyways even if they were able to produce it
Russia =/= Soviet Union
>I have heard lots of claims that Russia can no longer make this or that military asset.
What are production RATE? If I can only shit once a month using forceps and very good friend, I can still shit but the effort vs. output matters and no amount of turd tugging makes more turds other than by loafular subdivision.
Meanwhile the competition defecate continuously and make streets of the stuff while beshitting this board.
>Their tank program for the T-14 has maybe had some ups and downs, but production on those should be rolling soon.
gib proofs.
Is this true?
>more reliable caterpillar tracks
Did they steal them off a bulldozer?
bureucratic corruption and mismanagement
heard from where?
all their semiconductors come from the West. No more semiconductors, no more military tech
>The US is going to have more B21’s soon than Russia has Armatas
Amazing
Name one single 'up' the T-14 program has had.
CorrUPtion
Don't even bother questioning it, a war can last as long as it is funded. Is urkaine able to attack their production factories? You ask this to people years ago and they REEEE RUSSIAN SHILL at you. They're just going to throw lives and armament at this until ukraine runs out. Are the oligarchs funding the US like bill gates going to spend his life savings for lindsey graham to claim it's worth the costs? They're trying to murder people with bioweapons and monitoring everything about you. It's a grey area north korea kills a few people with a bio weapon and nobody goes to prison so rich maniacs think they can pull that off. They got a hold on people doing things financially you think anyone wants to go to war for bill gates if he's not privately employing them? He just needs to pay more taxes? What's the point of depleting their military reserves unless you want them to modernize them and produce better products for the next conflict. There is no great strategy to attack russia from anywhere. They just got a boost to their arms sales. Then you got these weirdos masquerading around green screens and building barbed wire fences on the compounds they have like sure you're not doing anything nefarious. morons lap it up and think it's doing something besides wasting lives and making the next conflict more deadly. Then they want to let these people into nato after they could just quit and have nato's support instead of doing this money sucking pit where the wealthy get richer and they kill off people and hope to import other people to fill the shoes of what they could do.
meds
When the USSR collapsed, lots of stuff was manufactured outside of the RSFSR. (Like the NSV being made in kazakhstan) However, this problem was quickly fixed.
More crucial is the modern reliance on foreign parts (like French thermals), though these have also been phased out. An exception is computer chips, though I don’t think China is going to sanction Russia.
Western machinery is used in Russian factories, though it’s far easier to smuggle in.