How was the US able to win so handedly in Desert storm, Posted on May 9, 2023 by PrepHole Contributor But 13 years later fail so badly in the Iraq war? What changed?
>fail so badly
In what way did they fail in the Iraq war?
Completing one objective out of many doesn’t mean success. Iraq is more destabilized now than in 2002.
You asked about the war, not the nation building. America kicked ass in the war mate.
>Google: Iraq War
>Wikipedia: Iraq war
>Dates: 20 March 2003 – 18 December 2011
>B…BUT WE KICKED ASS IN THE FIRST FEW MONTHS!
Cool, that was the start of the war. Fighting continued for 10 years. America came in with a list of objectives and failed at more than half of them. Keep coping.
Don't you have something better to do than be mad on the internet?
What makes you think I’m mad? Quite calm actually.
The fact that you're mad
Are you saying Saddam rose from the dead and took Iraq back in 2011?
That’s a very disingenuous argument then, since you’re comparing an invasion to a nearly decade long counter insurgency and nation building campaign. In the gulf war, the coalition did not stay back to nation build for a decade. A much closer comparison would be the gulf war and and 2003 invasion of iraq
What list of objectives?
If you make something up make it good
>Tudor conquest of Ireland (1562-1949)
Where did we go wrong, Henry VIII-bros?
1 T-34, BTW
Cope and seethe my Vatmoron. Iraq: functional, US bases: still there, US casualties: less than one month of Vatmorons kicking around in a far poorer country.
Ok, google the invasion of iraq.
>compares desert storm to the 2003 invasion and calls 2003 a failure
>anons explain that 2003's invasion had the same level of success, but the scope of the operation went beyond the conventional invasion stage
>YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 10 YEARS
Why are you intentionally being disingenuous?
>You asked about the war, not the nation building.
This. I don't get why so many people fail to understand the difference between these two things. It's like someones marriage failing and you say they fail at picking up women.
>but whataboutism post war
which one do you want pidor. just admit its a troll thread
>moving the goal posts
the 2003 invasion of iraq was a strategic victory, anything that happens afterwards is not relevant to the discussion
it would be like saying japan lost the russo-japanese war because it led to the civil government becoming militarized 10 years later
which is an event that has nothing to do with the fact that they won the actual war
>it would be like saying japan lost the russo-japanese war
Russians and thirdies do this shit all the time. A Russian on 4chan tried arguing that with me the other day, stating that because they had received some support from the UK and USA, they didn't in fact win the Russo-Japanese war.
When I pointed out lend-lease and that would mean that Russia never defeated Germany, he just ignored it.
They do all kinds of mental gymnastics to inflate their Ws or your Ls.
>Iraq is more destabilized now than in 2002
Is it really?
>Iraq is more destabilized now than in 2002.
That's the point. No money to be made if no endless wars.
Iraqi petroleum production has sky rocked since being liberated from the Ba'ath party.
By we you mean Chinese oil companies.
And what does china do with cheap petroleum?
They use it to make funko pops.
Chinese companies got oil extraction contracts in Iraq.
Which they use to feed the funko pop production line. Do you not understand how things are made and how they are made cheaply?
So did American and British ones
Countries dont go to war to help one another they go to war to destroy one another. In that sense we succeeded.
>thinks the objective of Iraq was to stabilise it
Oh sweet summer child.
that was the whole point?
You still believe the US went into the middle east for democracy?
>You still believe the US went into the middle east for democracy?
Primarily yes but also because the rancid dictator that Iraqi vomited into the world was threatening vital energy sources and routes. Or do you think civilisation should be allowed to end because Muslims are so weak and pathetic as to continually install inept power insane dictators as their rulers? Lawrence was wrong and he knows it, won;t even mention the Arabs at all now but the truth is that the arbs are just a little people, silly people, barbarous, worthless and cruel whether they fight each other or not. America is one of the lights of the world, the arab peoples will vanish and be forgotten in time as they should be. There is not one long lived amongst the whole of them, they are barely better than animals and not fully men. A petty, small, bickering, rancid gang of vicious savages and unaccomplished braggarts.
Wasn't he a puppet of the USA?
>Completing one objective out of many doesn’t mean success. Iraq is more destabilized now than in 2002.
What makes you think that the USA wanted Iraq stabilized? It had (another) insane arab dictator that threatened what was then a critical enegery source and route for the real bit of civilisation in the USA, EU, G7 and allies, the bit that invents and exports food. Iraq and its population along with Iran and much of the muslim middle east have been demonstrably disastrous cancerous civilizational failures for centuries now. Having sucked at the tit of the western economies via oil, they are now facing extinction with no food or water, industry, science, engineering or invention. Fuck them and fuck you OP and all your kind. The USA handed the Iraqi army and sadam its ass in carrier bags and rippled apart all opposition that challenged its military authority and then left. Simple as. If Iraqis fucked up their opportunity to be west germany 2.0 no one cares.
In both wars, the US succeeded in their conventional invasion. In one war, the US was satisfied with completing the invasion and leaving. In the other, the US aimed to stabilize the nation without the available resources or willingness to do so.
>Iraq is more destabilized now than in 2002.
>failing to invade two neighbors in less than a decade
>brutal rule by minority
>gassing other minorities
>fucked by sanctions
Your stability seems pretty shitty.
How did Iraq fail to invade Iran when it did invade it and then kept occupying parts of it after the war?
How did it fail to invade kuwait when it did invade it and annex it in hours?
I literally thought you were talking about the US kek
> How did Russia fail to invade Kiev when they still are in Crimea
Iraq under Saddam was stable in the way you don't fuck around when your abusive alcoholic step dad was snapping his belt together after a long day of drinking and beating your older brother. Say what you want
Good analogy because like with an alcoholic abusive dad sometimes it doesn't matter what you do you'll still get beaten or in this case brutally tortured and thrown in a wood chipper by Saddam's insane kids
Which is why the US did the right thing that every step son should do, and beat the ever-loving shit out of him. And then, when the step dad drank again, snuffed out his life.
Reminder this was mostly civilians trying to escape.
>During the American-led coalition offensive in the Persian Gulf War, American, Canadian, British and French aircraft and ground forces attacked retreating Iraqi military personnel attempting to leave Kuwait on the night of February 26–27, 1991, resulting in the destruction of hundreds of vehicles and the deaths of many of their occupants.
why would the iraqi invasion force include civilians?
>actually believing US propaganda
Why would military forces use civilian vehicles like tanker trucks?
It's not propaganda they had civilians and prisoners amongst them I thought everyone knew this
you see, to thirdies, "propaganda" is "whatever makes me feel icky"
no its historical fact.
by the way, the u.s also completely annihilated the power and sanitation grids in desert storm that killed a lot more innocent civilians than those caught up in the high way of death convo
why would Kuwaiti citizens flee to the country invading them?
think vatmoron think!
Because Kuwait had ethnic Iraqis and Iraq had ethnic Kuwaiti loyalists
It is almost like they annex them for a reason
>we're just liberating our brothers
gee where have i heard that one before
They should've lied about them possessing WMDs beforehand then it would be okay
>It is almost like they annex them for a reason
Uh yeah because it actually was a war about oil. Iraq owed Kuwait 14 billion in loans from the Iraq-Iran war,l and Iraq could only pay this back with money from oil sales but Kuwait voted in OPEC to limit oil production. Also, Iraq accused Kuwait of slant drilling.
Because his civilians (the minority of the group) were Kuwati collaborators (who the Kuwati government were going to fuck up) or people working for Iraqis who took part in the occupation. Pretending it was somehow innocent people fleeing from the invaded country for the invading country backups up "America bad". It's not based upon any reality or functional logic.
>In what way did they fail in the Iraq war?
Hmmmm... let's see
>thousands of Americans dead
>trillions of dollars wasted
>America's reputation down the toilet
>the general position of America's ACTUAL adversaries (not some economically and militarily crippled tinpot dictatorship that was going to implode the second that Saddam croaked anyway) strengthened considerably
Take your pick
>b-but we overthrew Saddam in 30 days!
Nazi Germany successfully conquered Poland in 30 days, World War II still ended in complete disaster for the German people. Whatever was gained from that conquest was lost in the national catastrophe that followed.
The best thing any American can do about the Iraq War now (besides hanging George W. Bush and still-living members of his cabinet from lampposts for high treason) is accept that it was a defeat and take all of the hard-learned lessons to heart to ensure that it is never ever repeated. Living in denial that the whole affair was a tragic waste of human life and treasure like after Vietnam is what led us on this path in the first place.
tl;dr don't be Russian
>Nazi Germany successfully conquered Poland in 30 days, World War II still ended in complete disaster for the German people.
Yeah but I don't recall WW2 being betweent Germany and Poland alone
The part that people are shitting on you for is the weird equivocation of an occupation with a conventional invasion You know that a common talking point to argue that the US is weak and would lose to Russia or something is "hurr they lost in Iraq and Afghanistan" when that loss wasn't due to an inability to win a conventional war. If you want to see a country that did lose in a conventional invasion, just look at Russia.
Tbf by not having a plan in place for post invasion. The planners thought a democratic govt would "spontaneously arise".
>The planners thought a democratic govt would "spontaneously arise".
that was the experience with Germany
>The point of divergence occurs in June, 1942, where Reichsprotektor Reinhard Heydrich barely survives an assassination attempt in Prague. Historically, Heydrich was killed; this is the breakpoint which provides the basis for the rest of the novel.
>In February, 1943, shortly after the German defeat at Stalingrad, Heydrich meets with Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS. Foreseeing Germany's probable defeat, Heydrich convinces his superior to begin preparations for a possible partisan campaign should German forces lose the war.
>Two years later, Allied forces have conquered Germany, and Hitler and Himmler are both dead by their own hands. With the Nazi government having surrendered, insurgents under Heydrich's command immediately begin a series of guerrilla attacks against the occupying forces, using car bombs, improvised explosive devices, anti-tank rockets, and suicide bombers.
It's remarkable Turtledove was able to type that whole book with such heavy hands.
He's got strong arms
Fighting an insurgency is a completely different beast from using your military in a conventional war.
Do you really have to ask this?
>In what way did they fail in the Iraq war?
Not accomplishing anything.
Is their constitution the same as ours?
Everyone who responded to you is wrong. Iraq is America's ally now, Baghdad is a nice place, the security situation ( وضع امن as they say) is remarkably stable considering what they've been through and things are only improving. Americans aren't hated there for the most part, Iraqis are very friendly people, and most of them hated Saddam because he was a ruthless dictator who probably killed at least one person they cared about for some bullshit or another. They are mostly conservative and don't like Biden but that's getting into the nitty gritty.
ITT: mostly retards who have no actual knowledge of what they're talking about
America kicked ass in the Iraq war, they fuck fucked up what came after. Dissolving the Ba’athist party and the Iraqi Army led to a lot of hatred, and Iraqi soldiers out of a job.
Building Iraq 2.0
why dont you do some basic ass reading first
what bizzaro world do you live in?
the 2002 iraq war was a military victory
Desert Storm was a straight forward conventional fight against a substandard military, while the Iraq War was a counter insurgency campaign. The latter was far more contingent on political considerations than on military ones. Ultimately, the US had no end state for Iraq and only handed the country (and the whole region) over to Iran. This could have been avoided shortly after toppling Saddam, but those decisions weren't made and US commanders couldn't change that fact.
The US failed in desert storm though, Iraq continued to exist with sadam as it's leader after all.
The allies also lost WW2 because Germany, Italy and Japan still exist.
they won cold war though
America is only really at absolutely obliterating a country.
They suck at anything beyond that.
Want to tear down a regime? Call America.
Want to build the country back better? Call literally anyone else.
>Want to build the country back better? Call literally anyone else.
Well, this worked out quite well for South Korea, Japan, and Germany. But frankly the US was working with much more unified and high IQ people than anything in Iraq or Afghanistan.
>Want to build the country back better? Call literally anyone else.
Call who? What nation has succeeded here?
Desert Storm was a conventional war
13 years later was an occupation
War =/= Occupation
The occupation was additionally hampered by the arrogance, ignorance, and incompetence of the Neocons
Rumsfeld wanted to occupy with just 100,000 troops and believed they could be out in six weeks
Oh yes and they also fired every government employee for being a member of the Ba'athist Party + dissolved the Army
>I told you fuckers, but nooooo, you didn't believe me.
He did he told Rumsfeld he would need 500,000 troops
America toppled Saddam so Iranians could take over Iraq
Wasn't it speculated that one of the "alternative sources" the Neocons turned to when they were rejecting CIA analysis was a double agent working for Iran?
Some exile council or something like that
>Iran is in charge
That’s why their front man quit last year?
He was wrong about everything, including hats and whatever Army of One meant.
Iraqis were dumb enough to fight against America on a leveled playing field and oh they though trenches were effective until they got their asses buried
Fighting insurgents is different than fighting a military, it's like taking out roach nests but they keep popping up and you have to trace the little shits to find the next one and it feels futile. US already knew exactly where to strike Iraq from day 0 to cripple the opposition before they could even figure out what was going on.
US lost Desert Storm. Were unable to destroy the Republican Guard, just blew up a bunch of civilians. Knew that if they invaded Iraq proper they'd be in for an insurgency, so they cucked out.
In retrospect what's striking about the war is how unnecessary it was. It's like Bush and co were just dying to use their toys.
It's glowmorons play.
Saudia Arabia together with CIA organized 911. CIA got their """"Patriot""" Act, Saudi Arabia got Sadam removed as payment.
>It's like Bush and co were just dying to use their toys.
This played a large part of it. After the cold war the west had these huge militaries and no one to fight against. It's why there was such decisive and overwhelming force against Serbia during the War in Yugoslavia. If that happened just a decade earlier the response would have been finger wagging at UN meetings.
Another big factor leading to Iraq was the feeling of invincibility brought up over the huge success of the Gulf War and the 90s peacekeeping missions.
The first Iraq war was WAR. The second was a nation building quagmire for a people who didn't want to do what it takes to BE a nation - the policing and protection of individual rights and property, infrastructure building, and forging a national identity. Instead they just did what muslims always do without a dictator or colonial power to govern them - degenerate to tribal and sectarian warfare, hot and cold.
And the nation building wasn't helped that it was ran by retarded civilians. Rumsfeld halfed the US troop numbers in country after the war was won even though by the book you should double or triple numbers if you plan to occupy a conquered country.
>How was the US able to win so handedly in Desert storm
We focused entirely on what we're good at. Blowing up infrastructure and armored units with air power. Then we fucked off and got out of there.
Didn't tell Iran in 1991 that they're gonna be invaded next. Didn't hang around long enough in 1991 for an uprising to form against them.
I like how suddenly everyone pretends to be retarded and thinks the US had completely earnest blue eyed intentions for invading like making Iraq the next Sweden etc. because its the only way to spin the Iraq war as a loss instead of a boon for the US sphere of influence and US corporations
Literally any way to make the US look bad, even if it ironically makes them look better
>Well that could have gone better
Brown people on the internet:
>TOTAL CATASTROPHIC DEFEAT FALL IF THE WEST 6 GORZILLION DEAD AMERICANS FAILED STATE CHINA INFLUENCE.
American KIA In Iraq for the duration is like 2k.
>Well that could have gone better
Again, you seem to not understand the difference between actual battles and nation building. The actual invasion of Iraq lasted little of a month and was an overwhelming US/coalition victory, shortly after which the president landed on a god damn aircraft carrier and literally announced the objective was accomplished. The next 10 years is where it gets tricky, and more equivalent to the British's Empires various excursions. The US didn't fail at their goal, because there was no goal apart from "we rocked em baby!" and testing our hardware out in the desert.
If we had left it at that and just blew up a bunch of shit and left we’d have become the largest villains in the planet. We HAD to build it back up in order to justify the ass whopping we delivered on the world stage. Obviously it failed, but the truth is we never needed to succeed. If we earnest gave it the old college try then no one would REALLY question US supremacy.
They did it because they were pissed at 9/11 and we're lashing out.
And who better to lash out at than some asshole dictator who is destabilising the entire region?
They honestly believed they could do Nation-Building in Iraq, failing to realize it would always be a backwards corrupt shithole.
1 SINGULAR T34
>another raq war thread where OP wont accept any answer other than 'america has fallen'
Armatard sucks donkey dicks.
He's been real active lately.
Imagine not realising that the whole world holds arabs in contempt and trying to clutch at gnomish straws
50 year blue balling being released at once.
Why do people say 2003 Iraq was an American failure when our puppet Government is in control of Iraq?
It sells more oil to China, literally chinks are the ones capitalizing on it
>country ran by Iran and its militias
>burn the amerishart embassy every weekend
>ran by iran
Nothing says "ran by iran" like letting your supposed puppet house enemy bases and target your military with impunity. Is this the power of iran, a country so shit that they claim a country is under their control despite the contrary? If iraq was truly under iran's control, they would have not let the Americans house bases there.
>12 ballistic missiles fired
>best you can do is give a bunch of people concussions
>Iran is able to bomb one of the three american bases still in the country (used to be 30+) in the Kurdistan not even Iraq proper and get away with it
>America reduces its forced by %60 in response
another glorious american victory
Iran did more damage to Ukraine than America that week by letting its air defense crews spergout
>kills your best general
>fire some shitty ballistics missiles
>literally no Americans died
>Americans reduce forces some years later
>Iran did that
KEK. you will always be an unstable ineffectual shithole.
Ok i actually got a laugh out of that.
Does this mean that Nazi Germany won WW2 since Germany's government is now opposed to the government of Russia?
They've always been opposed since ever
No it means you don't understand the situation to the point you are comparing apples to cardboard boxes and parading your idiocy though it were a victory
>Battle of Baghdad
>April 3–9, 2003 (6 days)
While in the Gulf War, the Iraqis were allowed to conditionally surrender early on and Baghdad wasn't even taken
>rejects the Iraqi surrender three times
>goes in to take baghdad
>get assraped by republican guards upon entering the country (actual soldiers not conscripts this time)
>immediately accepts the ceasefire
>fast forward decade of sanction
>goes in again to finish the job
>get assraped by republican guards upon entering the country
Meanwhile in reality:
>190 coalition troops were killed by Iraqi combatants, the rest of the 379 coalition deaths were from friendly fire or accidents. This number was much lower than expected.
As a reminder Wagner loses that many in 2 or 3 days in Kekhmut alone.
The US is really, really good at blowing shit up but not very good at putting things back together, so the "collapse the Iraqi government" part worked perfectly but the "rebuild Iraq" part didn't.
See also: Afghanistan, Libya
1 was USA protecting it's oil suppliers gold by catching a desert bandit in the act across open desert.
2 was a half-assed heist at the bandit's own house. It became a sloppy murder job.
the end goals were different in desert storm the coalition objective was to liberate Kuwait and destroy Iraqs ability to wage war which it did with prejudice, the goal in the iraq war was to overthrow Sadams government and occupy the country and a laundry list of unachievable goals after the fact which is why the war lasted as long as it did.
which is the main difference in this case in desert storm we didnt stay in country we wiped out their forces so handedly they came crawling to the negotiating table when George H Bush called for a cease fire and announced kuwaits liberation, which to be fair other than the nation building project of the Iraq War Sadams remaining forces folded worse than they did during Desert Storm.
So yeah you see a lot of cope posting similar to Vietnam that has some merit, the whole 'it was a military victory but a political defeat'. In my opinion its more a case of it doesnt matter how good your military is if your going to war for the wrong reasons or you have no achievable end goal in mind you are simply wasting time money and lives for nothing. Makes me wonder if George H Bush knew Iraq would have been a colossal disaster of an occupation and gave Sadam an out in the form of a ceasefire that his son and the US congress were too dumb enough to leave well enough alone.
The US invasion went fine you stupid moron.
The occupation was far more problematic but you knew this before you posted.
The US didn't fail but it was necessary for ISIL to slaughter the fuck out of Iraqis so they'd at least attempt a functioning government which remains a US client. Fortunately US casualties were trivial and no one else of value died.
The moral is occupy nothing but facilitate fratricide which is the superior strategy because the locals prefer severing each others heads to food, sex or oxygen.
Is that why you can't do shit since the war? You can't even send troops to garden gnomekraine lmao
all you did since then was ran from Afghanistan like you did with Iraq
Certified scizo ramble
>throwing in an arabic word from google makes me an expert
do they really?
اگول عرابي السفلي. انت كلش متخلف. پ.س. گوگل ما يعرف عراقي بس MSA
>using google translate makes me an expert
Studying Iraq 6 days a week 10+ hours a day makes me an expert
>But 13 years later fail so badly in the Iraq war?
I'm sorry what? Taking a capital and destroying the government in less then a month is failure? Then proceeding to crush every insurrection and turning the country over to the still ruling government.
We destroyed them in a matter of a few weeks in both instances, choad-face.
If you "destroyed them in a few weeks", why were you there for ten years?
>your next post will move the goalposts to "that didn't count because toppling Saddam was the 'real war' and losing the war that came afterwards was irrelevant"
Americans seem to only win wars where the population refuses to fight back. Once they do, America is helpless.
lol this thread is str8 sus fr no cap
the (you)s are uber poggers lol xd roflcopter
What has thirdies and tankies so mad latel-
OH NONONONONONONONO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
BROWNBROS NOT LIKE THIS
The invasion went fine. Infact, America obliterated both conventional armies faster than any of its other previous adversaries in war. It's just that Arabs are incapable of running any sort of modern civilization worth a damn. There's a reason why the invasion and occupation of Germany and Japan turned out fine, but Iraq and Afghanistan continue to be shitholes. It's not America's responsibility to civilize your shithole. Its on you. Its what brownshitstains do is to blame other countries around them instead of themselves.
>But 13 years later fail so badly in the Iraq war?
what the fuck are you talking about, the US stomped Iraq in 2003 harder than in Desert storm. Iraq's military was entirely depleted. If you're talking about insurgents, they didn't hand anyone's ass to anyone. Fucking idiot, read wikipedia