How likely is it that Ukrainian pilots will be able to SEAD or DEAD with f-16s?
Maybe there pilots are talented enough and trained to do it in their old planes but I have gotten the impression that it’s such a difficult task that it would take very long to learn it on a new plane even if you’re already good with another plane.
They've been training for like year now
There's basically no F-16 pilots left on here to tell you authoritatively, there used to be but they all got run off in the 2016 to 2020 period. But, long story short is that they probably can do SEAD, DEAD may be harder. I wouldn't want to be within maybe 30 nmi of a S-300 battery senpai.
Russian SAAMs were ineffective against F-16s in Iraq. Why would they do any better now?
you're a dumbass
That doesn’t mean it isn’t very dangerous to be close to them. Also if the Ukrainian air force uses some American planes, that doesn’t make them the US air force + navy
A lot of fighters and other aircraft have been downed in this war, most of them were early on, before the arrival of Patriots and IRIS-T. That means the bulk of shootdowns was coming from S-300s and assorted SHORAD systems, practically all of them some Soviet or Soviet-derived systems.
They may be dogshit relative to their pre-war hype but they're still capable enough to not be anywhere near complacent around.
F-16s may as well be alien spaceships compared to the eastern bloc trash we've seen in theater so far
This is also true, to be fair.
and yet the little green Black folk still got shot down over Roswell. never get complacent, your giving them a chance for no reason
I wouldn't go that far; The block 20 Falcons Ukraine received still use the original F100 24'000lb/t engine and the AN/APG-68 radar which doesn't have the range to take advantage of newer AIM-120 variants. Though it does carry a few more recent bits & bobs like the DTS and EWMS which will help it perform over Ukraine. I would argue it's around the same level as the later Russian aircraft such as the Su-35, being better in some ways and worse in others. The real strength of the plane has more to do with the fact that it can carry storm shadow, SDBs, (to a limited extent) AARGMs and other precision ordinance guided via SNIPER pod, all while being easy to maintain and having a functionally endless supply of spare parts by virtue of being the world's most common fast jet. It's a kickass plane that'll definitely help make life interesting for bridges, supply depots and command posts over the next few months, but it won't be enough to win air superiority.
And frankly, labelling every piece of western equipment as unbeatable leads not only to shills like
claiming that western weapons can't turn the tide, but to complacency and neglect here at home. It's in no small part thanks to this attitude that Ukraine hasn't gotten the aid it needs to defeat the Russian military at a strategic level, and why more broadly so many useful weapons programs like the Raptor and XM2001 were cancelled early. Because as helpful as vipers will be, ultimately sending them in particular was the wrong choice; the F-35B would help a lot more.
>Russian SAAMs were ineffective against F-16s in Iraq
Just because one guy managed to dodge half a dozen SAMs in a run doesn't mean he wasn't shitting himself the entire time or that he would have survived if he made even the slightest error.
His counter measures weren't even working. The f16 is one nimble little beast.
It is, but the dude probably bent the hell out of the airframe
>It is, but the dude probably bent the hell out of the airframe
Better bent than exploded, I never heard that he got any shit for it.
The military released it as heroic propaganda though granted that certainly doesn't exclude being written up for it by his immediate superiors.
>Some of you guys are alright
>Don't go to the S-300 battery tomorrow
>How likely is it that Ukrainian pilots will be able to SEAD or DEAD with f-16s?
Extremely. They already have HARMs and most likely when they get F-16s they'll get newer, far more capable variants than the HARM-B's they've been flinging. Most likely though they F-16s will be used as cruise missile slingers more than anything. I'd genuinely be shocked if they're used in CAP or even CAS role any time soon.
dunno but I'd be extremely disappointed if Ukrainians can literally shoot down AWACS but Russians cant even manage to shoot down fighters
It's not mid 60's with A-6s and F-105s making it up as they go anymore.
Using HARM in basic SEAD tactics is a very simplified process, as evident that they have been doing it with MiG-29 and Su-27 aircraft that doesn't even have specific targeting hardware for it, operating on GPS guidance and passive target selection only.
Effective DEAD? Remains to be seen, but considering they already use Stormshadow and similar weapons to take out AD systems because the Russians are practically moronic with how they group their systems i think they will have some effect at least.
Just the suppression might allow a bunch of destruction by other weapons too.
I am intentionally huffing hopium in this thread because it’s fun to think about what might be achieved.
Maybe there won’t be a lot of direct combat between the f16s and Russias air force but if they end up getting a decent amount of kills with a great kd ratio (which is a real possibility) it would be a very kino crowning achievement at the end of a long and successful service.
>How likely is it that Ukrainian pilots will be able to SEAD or DEAD with f-16s
No at all. SEAD/DEAD is dependent on which weapons systems get delivered. No late model HARM with MMW and MALD-J, = no SEAD/DEAD. Sneedy Hoe blocked MiG-29s and F-16s initially and has slow rolled aid because the DoD wants to keeps stocks for the brewing SCS cook off. This is a largely yuro intiative and will be dependent on yuro weapon stocks
Vipers can still operate on the deck and sling glide bombs like MiG-29s are doing now. The main upgrade will be the addition of AIM-120D which be able to be used in look up ambushes against Russian fighter deploying glide weapons. D is lock on after launch so they can loft a couple in the general direction of the attacking aircraft and turn on active homing after entering the NEZ.
Don’t overhype them.
1. First step is replace and phase out Soviet jets which are falling apart from overuse.
2. They will mostly be used for delivering NATO bombs and do a bit better job and fire a few more kinds of them.
3. If they get enough and enough patriots they can slowly push back Russian air power.
>Don’t overhype them.
I’m avoiding that but I’m still curious about how well it could go.
I think that these two results aren’t too unlikely:
1
Russia becomes a lot more careful with its planes, either after a few losses with few or 0 dead f16s or shortly after the f16s start flying because they see the new risk. This means fewer bombs dropped on the Ukrainian front.
2
Ukraine either has a few big high profile wins against Russian AD or Russia uses its AD more sparingly right away because they account for the new risk. This means more Ukrainian drones or rockets reaching Russian targets.
Both of these effects seem pretty realistic to me and would be a decent increase in Ukraines chances of survival.
There’s a small chance that it does even more than this. For example if Russia tries a big offensive which usually means a lot of risky sorties, there’s a decent chance of shooting down a lot of planes like what happened the last few weeks.
The simple fact that the f16 is different from Russian/soviet planes means that lessons they learnt from the many recent losses might not be fully applicable when it’s f16s that are defending and they end up losing as much or more than the last few weeks before adapting to the presence of the f16.
It could be like HIMARS that got a bunch of great hits against Russian logistics and Russia had to adapt by changing their logistics in ways that made it less effective, like keeping warehouses smaller and further from the front.
>I’m avoiding that but I’m still curious about how well it could go.
Well for one thing, how exactly would Russia deal with this scenario?
A concentrated campaign of special forces and partisans and stormshadow/scalps to degrade air defences around coastal Crimea towards the straight, then a pair of F16s fly just above waves, possibly from Bulgaria or Romania, and head for the bridge, then toss-bomb a handful of JDAM-ERs configured for INS and maybe some fancy target recognition into the bridge, they don't get within 20km of the bridge themselves but probably still have to defend against a SAM or two and then get back down to surface level and GTFO.
I've always wondered how vulnerable nap-of-the-earth is over water, at a minimum, I think land based SAMs might not track them well.
Are those bombs accurate enough to hit a relatively small target like that while in an operation like that? It’s thin and a near miss is worthless.
I know it can hit a target with the diameter of the bridges width but do you get that accuracy in such a difficult mission where they have to be very careful to survive?
Pretty sure JDAMs can have some very fancy guidance beyond just lasing something.
Though it's not out of the question that Ukies could sneak a designator onto the bridge or something either.
Isn’t a big lamp placed on the bridge easily detectable? Would that be how a planted designator works? Even if it’s not in the visual spectrum I’d except Russia to have cameras for seeing laser designations and the bridge feels like an obvious place to keep watch for designations.
Putting laser warning receivers around the bridge would make lots of sense and Russia apparently has put inventive people in charge of that, witness how the bridge gets smoked when anything anywhere around Crimea explodes. They're clearly trying to anticipate and mitigate threats.
However, if you put a device that was a laser with a timer and a battery somewhere on the bridge, it might only activate until the last few seconds before the JDAM-ERs arrive.
Yes, that's a Bondesque plot but we're talking about the Kirch Bridge and Budanov and the third greatest propaganda move Ukraine will pull in this war before victory (after Kyiv surviving and the Kharkiv collapse).
something tells me they will excel at DEAD no worries
taking off from Romania or Poland, operating in UA airspace and returning to PL/RO, russia will be pissing blood. but we all know that. expect nuclear exchange, maintain operational capability as is.
The latest wunderwaffen will win it, just like all the previous ones.
But enough about the Kinzhal, S-400, or Armata.
>Ukraine gets weapon
>Russia claims to have destroyed them all before they even arrive
>weapon makes a significant impact
>Ukraine successfully survives the SMO a while longer
“I thought you hohols said that NATO wunderwaffe would defeat Russia but the SMO is still happening. Clearly it was useless”
A lot of DEAD.