>also apparently the Tesla system replaces canbus with a more Ethernet like protocol
which should have happened 20 years ago. i hate diagnosing can bus issues, where one bad device takes down the whole bus.
>karen spills her pumpkin spice down the center console >power seat module shorts out >sends either constant 12v or noise down the bus >ecm throws 17 codes for every module losing communication >have to disconnect each module until i find the one that restores the bus
ethernet will make this much less likely to occur.
You could do point to point CAN links as well, cost cutting is why they don't (and it would be an insane protocol to use, but I digress). I don't do automotive stuff but having point to point 100 base ethernet to every single seat module or light module or wherever you would need CAN sounds expensive.
This article makes no sense.
Teslas run around 350 volts.
The rest is inconsequential support electronics
There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
They have no idea about cars, but they had some linux weenies which is why it uses ethernet. Also so they can ssh into your car and disable it when they decide to make left turns a subscription service.
The tesla basically uses technology lifted from PCs, of which billions of them… including the GPUs run on 12 V now.
I’m guessing musk is even dumber than than what he’s already proven.
How will Ethernet make that less likely? If you run it as a shared media network with a hub, one noisy device can sure as hell frick everything up. If you use switching, you have another device (or devices) in the middle of communications that can fail in any number of ways.
5 months ago
Anonymous
do they still use ethernet in bus topology in vehicles?
5 months ago
Anonymous
CANbus speeds are in the 1Mbit/s range. Ethernet is over 1Gbit/s. Even with the added overhead of tcp/ip transmission layers you are far ahead with Ethernet. CANbus has the advantage of being a two wire system and being more robust for the application, but you should remove yourself for the gene pool. Your posts are less than worthless.
Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module. They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
At least one guy here knows about media segments and topology, and immediately grasped the same issue.
You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked.
I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
5 months ago
Anonymous
> ethernet like
He’s probably going to “invent” either token ring or atm. Again.
[...] > faster is always better
I need OC-768 redundant fiber links to each brake because I’m a performance driver and have Z rated tires.
Next year, every sensor will have it’s own battery and communicate over WiMax using XML. Progress!
Name 3 consumer cars that have CANbus wheel speed sensors frickwits. Not everything has to be part of your IoT.
Yeah and I wonder what happens when the CANbus master goes bad? Ever heard of economy of scale? An Ethernet interface is produced thousands of times more than any CANbus interface is produced.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module.
Ethernet is down compatible, the brake module can have an ancient 10Mbit/s link, hell you can bitbang that thru GPIO in firmware if you have to, no dedicated hardware needed.
>They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
Canbus wouldn't be able to talk to the 10 gig ethernet switch at the core of the system.
>You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked. >I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
Yeah cause redundant routing in networking hasn't been a thing for literal decades with available, cheap and reliable hard&software. OH WAIT.
You're so low IQ you cause me physical pain.
Tesla is leveraging their vertical integration to completely sidestep suppliers being morons to save costs on a scale everyone else in the business can only dream about.
Tesla and the chinks will be the only EV makers capable of building cheap mass market vehicles for 10-15 years until the rest of the industry catches up.
And god knows where tesla will be then since they show no signs of slowing down their insane rate of improvement.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>ring topology isn't redundant enough for this guy
You.made.most.of.my own points though. Yes ethernet is robust and cheap, so is whatever the frick they're using. The reason it sucks now is because everything that can possibly be on the bus is, and it's implemented badly so your brake light fails which causes everything else to fail because they didnsuch a shit job implementing their ring/bus/whatever.
Which wouldn't change just because it's ethernet, they'd frick that up too
5 months ago
Anonymous
Take your ADHD meds and shut the frick up.
[...]
No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino and other homegamer grade shit. These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use. No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about, and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything.
t. renesas
>No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino
ESP32 is a SoC family.
Arduino is an italian company as well as a name for a family of µC boards using microcontrollers from atmel to build a DIY ecosystem.
>and other homegamer grade shit.
Both ESP32's and Atmels AVRs have been used extensively for decades in professional products.
>These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips
Nobody, absolutely fricking nobody, produces chips specifically for DIY. The market is way too tiny and a dedicated mask set and production run with validation would be prohibitively expensive.
No, the DIY people get whatever is made for industry applications.
>and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use.
There are plenty of automotive chips with ethernet, and the chip does not necessarily need to be exposed directly to a dirty powerbus. A couple external SMD caps and diodes won't exactly be prohibitive.
>No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about
Until now.
>and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything. >t. renesas
I can already tell you work in marketing.
t. EE at R&S
5 months ago
Anonymous
>EE
Stop beingnsonshit at your job. Legendary hardware from the 90s is still here because you're highly dishonorable. Great shame to you and your damoly.
5 months ago
Anonymous
niqqa i don't know what you've been told but i don't speak klingon
5 months ago
Anonymous
> ESPs and Ardiunos used in professional products.
We’re talking about cars with systems that could cause death, or worse if they malfunction. Not breadmakers. > Until now
Looking at the cybertruck crash test, I fully expect to open up a new tesla and find it full of chinese knockoff bluepills running micropython.
I thought all the Radio Shacks had closed.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Thanks for being one of the few other sensible people in this discussion. Ethernet is a great protocol for networking between computers, and can be made redundant with additional cabling and complexity (all of which can still fail), but the underlying problem is that the current bus network in cars is overloaded with shit that doesn't need to be on there. Using Ethernet as the layer 1/2 standard for communication wouldn't fix that.
>ethernet will make this much less likely to occur.
no it wont
Ethernet is not tcp/ip. Most common industrial buses are ethernet these days, with real-time and priority, even the safety stuff goes over ethernet-ip/profinet/ethercat
>Ethernet is not tcp/ip
it basically is > and priority
no they cant
5 months ago
Anonymous
>it basically is
how?
5 months ago
Anonymous
is not tcp/ip >it basically is
No it isn't. t. journeyman data tech
>it basically is
Search Wikipedia Ethernet article for TCP. No hits. Search IP; one hit as an example of what can be done over Ethernet.
So, it basically is not, unless you choose for it to be.
what protocols can you use over ethernet then?
1) tcp
2) udp
fieldbus ip is basically udp
modbus ip is basically tcp
5 months ago
Anonymous
>what protocols can you use over ethernet then?
TCP and UDP are layer 4, Ethernet is layer 1 or 2. So neither TCP or UDP are used over Ethernet.
5 months ago
Anonymous
lol
Priority is handled by QoS in the router idiot. Nothing is wrong with TCP/UDT. Rockwell Automation does CIP safety over Ethernet just fine. Noise rejection from cat6 cable is good enough for nearly any application. That being said CANbus is fully fleshed out for automotive applications and I could give a frick less what other information they need to pump over to the iPad they strapped to my dash. Give me my voltage, temp and oil pressure gauges back.
yeah having a bunch of switches to negate collision domain sounds like a good idea, what you want in rts is to add latency wherever you can. can bus priority is inherent in address signalling. thats one of the reasons its so widely adopted.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Rockwell Automation and Cisco Converged Plant wide Ethernet guide has latency added from 8 to 16 switches measured in usec. >He thinks more than one central switch would be needed in a single car.
Please please have a nice day.
5 months ago
Anonymous
CANbus speeds are in the 1Mbit/s range. Ethernet is over 1Gbit/s. Even with the added overhead of tcp/ip transmission layers you are far ahead with Ethernet. CANbus has the advantage of being a two wire system and being more robust for the application, but you should remove yourself for the gene pool. Your posts are less than worthless.
5 months ago
Anonymous
is not tcp/ip >it basically is
No it isn't. t. journeyman data tech
5 months ago
Anonymous
>it basically is
Search Wikipedia Ethernet article for TCP. No hits. Search IP; one hit as an example of what can be done over Ethernet.
So, it basically is not, unless you choose for it to be.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Priority is handled by QoS in the router idiot. Nothing is wrong with TCP/UDT. Rockwell Automation does CIP safety over Ethernet just fine. Noise rejection from cat6 cable is good enough for nearly any application. That being said CANbus is fully fleshed out for automotive applications and I could give a frick less what other information they need to pump over to the iPad they strapped to my dash. Give me my voltage, temp and oil pressure gauges back.
Ethernet is not tcp/ip. Most common industrial buses are ethernet these days, with real-time and priority, even the safety stuff goes over ethernet-ip/profinet/ethercat
> ethernet
I’m sure there’s other guys like you that never heard of RS422 and RS485 but have a 3D printer and assume they’re an “industrial manufacturer” because you made some figurines for your D&D buddies.
The point is, CAN is already built into all the microprocessors used in teslas, and virtually all cars, there’s nothing that can be improved on that purpose built standard. I understand you’re gaming pee cee uses ethernet, and that’s what you understand, but it’s not really appropriate for cars.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>The point is, CAN is already built into all the microprocessors used in teslas, and virtually all cars,
Yeah and it's so hard to find µCs with build in ethernet.... OH WAIT.
>there’s nothing that can be improved on that purpose built standard.
The initial CAN spec is from 1986.
The latest CAN spec is from 1991.
Max speed is 1MBit/s.
Chips for 100Mbit/s Ethernet cost single digit cents if bought in bulk.
Microcontrollers already containing 100Mbit/s or 1GBit/s Ethernet controllers cost double digit cent, the same as µCs with CAN inside, while being 100 to 1000x faster.
CAN is too slow for multiple applications inside a tesla, so next to a CAN bus there are various other connections.
Now all these connections have been replaced and run over ethernet, and CAN is also just routed over ethernet.
Ethernet is ancient, robust, and ubiquitous. Chips that can do Ethernet are the default.
>I understand you’re gaming pee cee uses ethernet, and that’s what you understand, but it’s not really appropriate for cars.
I understand that you should go unclog toilets instead of discussing things way above your paygrade.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module.
Ethernet is down compatible, the brake module can have an ancient 10Mbit/s link, hell you can bitbang that thru GPIO in firmware if you have to, no dedicated hardware needed.
>They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
Canbus wouldn't be able to talk to the 10 gig ethernet switch at the core of the system.
>You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked. >I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
Yeah cause redundant routing in networking hasn't been a thing for literal decades with available, cheap and reliable hard&software. OH WAIT.
You're so low IQ you cause me physical pain.
Tesla is leveraging their vertical integration to completely sidestep suppliers being morons to save costs on a scale everyone else in the business can only dream about.
Tesla and the chinks will be the only EV makers capable of building cheap mass market vehicles for 10-15 years until the rest of the industry catches up.
And god knows where tesla will be then since they show no signs of slowing down their insane rate of improvement.
No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino and other homegamer grade shit. These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use. No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about, and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything.
t. renesas
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module.
Ethernet is down compatible, the brake module can have an ancient 10Mbit/s link, hell you can bitbang that thru GPIO in firmware if you have to, no dedicated hardware needed.
>They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
Canbus wouldn't be able to talk to the 10 gig ethernet switch at the core of the system.
>You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked. >I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
Yeah cause redundant routing in networking hasn't been a thing for literal decades with available, cheap and reliable hard&software. OH WAIT.
You're so low IQ you cause me physical pain.
Tesla is leveraging their vertical integration to completely sidestep suppliers being morons to save costs on a scale everyone else in the business can only dream about.
Tesla and the chinks will be the only EV makers capable of building cheap mass market vehicles for 10-15 years until the rest of the industry catches up.
And god knows where tesla will be then since they show no signs of slowing down their insane rate of improvement.
>ring topology isn't redundant enough for this guy
You.made.most.of.my own points though. Yes ethernet is robust and cheap, so is whatever the frick they're using. The reason it sucks now is because everything that can possibly be on the bus is, and it's implemented badly so your brake light fails which causes everything else to fail because they didnsuch a shit job implementing their ring/bus/whatever.
Which wouldn't change just because it's ethernet, they'd frick that up too
Take your ADHD meds and shut the frick up.
[...] >No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino
ESP32 is a SoC family.
Arduino is an italian company as well as a name for a family of µC boards using microcontrollers from atmel to build a DIY ecosystem.
>and other homegamer grade shit.
Both ESP32's and Atmels AVRs have been used extensively for decades in professional products.
>These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips
Nobody, absolutely fricking nobody, produces chips specifically for DIY. The market is way too tiny and a dedicated mask set and production run with validation would be prohibitively expensive.
No, the DIY people get whatever is made for industry applications.
>and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use.
There are plenty of automotive chips with ethernet, and the chip does not necessarily need to be exposed directly to a dirty powerbus. A couple external SMD caps and diodes won't exactly be prohibitive.
>No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about
Until now.
>and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything. >t. renesas
I can already tell you work in marketing.
t. EE at R&S
holy frick you guys are idiots >redundant routing paths on real time systems lmao u suck enjoy your 2+ seconds convergence >no clue what ethernet is or how it works with automation
Thanks for being one of the few other sensible people in this discussion. Ethernet is a great protocol for networking between computers, and can be made redundant with additional cabling and complexity (all of which can still fail), but the underlying problem is that the current bus network in cars is overloaded with shit that doesn't need to be on there. Using Ethernet as the layer 1/2 standard for communication wouldn't fix that.
then theres this guy with his armchair bullshit drivel (ethernet is a protocol hurr durr canbus is too saturated ethernet cant fix it holy shit lol)
meanwhile in reality we use hundreds of devices, in real time, for safety applications, on ethernet but not using tcp. its called ethercat. we also use hsr on ring topologies for 0ms convergence where we use tcp/udp protocols. these are 17000hp mining hoists, people carriers, drives, cncs etc. no one in serious industry uses arduino. its trash and so is the community for anything production or industrial. good for hs kids and small uni projects, and of course unsecured smart plugs lmao. avr products have a better rep but not with arduino libs lmao.
not only are you guys pendantic morons but you feed off eachothers misunderstanding of such communication technologies meant for controls and real time applications. your not gonna find socs running micropython in a tesla, youre gonna find sbcs and gpus running python in a tesla which is far, far worse you fricking idiots.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>no one in serious industry uses arduino
Kek, there are a lot more arduinos being used by "engineers" to fix problems in factories and other jobsites around the world than anyone will ever admit.
When you see an arduino being used in someones thesis project, it means that they will be grabbing it as a crutch the first time they need to solve a problem in the real world.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah, cheap hacks. I hope they put their name on them so we can come and find them when it fails and the real engineers show up.
Tesla often uses the modern version of the legendary motorola 68HC12, a cross between a 6808 and a 6809 (from your Tandy CoCo computer)
5 months ago
Anonymous
hc12s were also used on space shuttles. theres nothing wrong with microcontrollers. its the implementation thats critical. micros should never run scripts and need to be engineered properly to be successful. scripts are easy but generally unstable as well as terrible practice. the problem is zoomers and webdevs who wouldn't know what an exception or an interlock is if it fricked them in the ass, just like how boeing killed all those people with shitty instrumentation programming.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Don't forget that it was the FAA who allowed Boeing to SELF-CERTIFY their new MCAS system, and that many of the highest administrative positions in the FAA have been filled by retired Boeing C-suite executives and managers. There's more than just bad software and hardware engineering going into those crashes; it was complete bureaucratic failure of multiple organizations at every level of the safety review process, by both the government and Boeing's own internal vetting system. The corruption involved eclipses even the Deepwater Horizon BP Gulf oil spill incident.
5 months ago
Anonymous
arduino is software not hw. arduino libs SUCK BALLS and are useless outside of blink examples. if youve ever programmed one youd know this. there is nothing wrong with using an avr but frick you if you use any of those shit libs outside of a proven example. why? because those fricking hippy wanna be programmers made a shitton of libs but never reported the resources they used, completely negating any actual usefulness outside an example. arduino is about as educational as a crackerjack box and is by no means a crutch more of a false sense of intelligence. we actually use avrs and pics to count gamma rays reliably but arduino should be eradicated outside of a classroom.
5 months ago
Anonymous
You are full of a particularly repugnant form of bullshit.
5 months ago
Anonymous
go on then
5 months ago
Anonymous
im an EE at a company that makes egg sorting machines. > new machine, some newbie straight out of school tries to convince the oldgay to use an Arduino for a few tasks, instead of one of
the two SPARTAN's onboard > oldgay points to me > "he can do that analog for half the cost and a quarter of the real estate on the PCB"
now im to do a bunch of analog sensor processing, schaling and log to lin conversion and re-schaling, filtering because an embedded engineer was making a point.
my opinion on arduino is also somewhat low, its like a normal micro controller with down syndrome.
5 months ago
Anonymous
> arduino
They’re begging us to but a ‘t’ in front of it aren’t they?
The ‘A’ in AVR stands for ‘Alf’ the master’s sudent thet came up with the architecture. They should have called it FVR so that ‘F’ refers to the grade he got on it.
This article makes no sense.
Teslas run around 350 volts.
The rest is inconsequential support electronics
There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
They have no idea about cars, but they had some linux weenies which is why it uses ethernet. Also so they can ssh into your car and disable it when they decide to make left turns a subscription service.
The tesla basically uses technology lifted from PCs, of which billions of them… including the GPUs run on 12 V now.
I’m guessing musk is even dumber than than what he’s already proven.
all current electric cars use 12v for the non high voltage electronics. So a current Tesla has a 12v battery in the frunk. Car manufacturers have wanted to go to higher voltage buses for years as 12v vastly increases their wiring costs.
> vastly
Most savings would be realized by putting the 12 V battery closer to the main current draws, namely the main computer. Everything else, like sensors, is bugger all and uses 28 AWG. The savings going to 48 V is miniscule. The losses incurred by re-standardizing would be enormous.
The germans tried to change the standard to 48 V decades ago in order to monopolize boutique batteries instead of getting a standard one for 1/10 the the cost from 100s of manufacturers. The math was done, and we b***hslapped that idea back to whence it came so fast it was like Nebuchadnezzar came back to life.
City busses are 24 V. On larger scales it make more sense, on tesla, it doesn’t. Look into the physics of why they can’t make a tesla “jet” plane.
As I said, like all musk’s ideas, this scam is nothing new, he just copied it from history. He’s probably knows less about manufacturing than anybody alive right now.
>have no knowledge about anything related to cars or electronics whatsoever >don't even read the article you're responding to >act like a smartass anyway
>This article makes no sense. >Teslas run around 350 volts. >The rest is inconsequential support electronics
inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
>There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
Electric seat heating
Electric Window heating
Electric Fans
Electric Steering assist
Electric AC compressor motor
And, new in cybertruck, electric drive by wire steering (5 HP motors)
77% reduction in cabling thanks to moving from 12V to 48V.
You're dumb as frick.
> inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
Lol, the battery we’re talking about in the tesla is a separate 400 Wh lead acid battery and you’re talking about the traction motors which are served by the main battery pack. You’re not even playing the same game let alone being in the same ballpark.
At 200 A, the 12 V battery would kill itself after a few minutes, and the newer 12 V batteries in teslas are only rated at around 7 A max draw.
So yes, saving 77% of .0001% of the cost of the vehicle. In fact the new 12 V batteries in teslas are specialized li-ion already, and are impossible to source from anywhere but tesla.
Now they’re starting the “more volts, more better” scam just like power tools did. Dewalt is up to 60 V now, up from 12 V about 20 years ago.
>Teslas run around 350 volts. >The rest is inconsequential support electronics
inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
>There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
Electric seat heating
Electric Window heating
Electric Fans
Electric Steering assist
Electric AC compressor motor
And, new in cybertruck, electric drive by wire steering (5 HP motors)
77% reduction in cabling thanks to moving from 12V to 48V.
You're dumb as frick. >> inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps. >Lol, the battery we’re talking about in the tesla is a separate 400 Wh lead acid battery and you’re talking about the traction motors which are served by the main battery pack. You’re not even playing the same game let alone being in the same ballpark. >At 200 A, the 12 V battery would kill itself after a few minutes, and the newer 12 V batteries in teslas are only rated at around 7 A max draw.
The main pack provides 400V / 800V, which is not routed around the car for steering motors or seat heaters for safety reasons.
Not all 12V consumers are feed from the tiny 12V battery, main pack voltage is converted down to 12V. This requires hundreds of meters of wiring, which has to transfer 200-300A in total to various components.
You seem quite clueless in general mixing up terms you don't understand, nobody was talking about traction motors.
>So yes, saving 77% of .0001% of the cost of the vehicle.
No, these are very substancial savings.
>In fact the new 12 V batteries in teslas are specialized li-ion already, and are impossible to source from anywhere but tesla.
These batteries are also completely irrelevant to the ongoing conversation.
>Now they’re starting the “more volts, more better” scam just like power tools did. Dewalt is up to 60 V now, up from 12 V about 20 years ago.
You do not understand the most basic law of electric systems, stop parttaking in this discussion.
Depends on what you consider a starter. There's a huge relay that disengages the high voltage system when the vehicle is off. In order to start the vehicle, that relay must be flipped, which requires a 12v power supply. You can have a full high voltage battery pack and not be able to go anywhere because the 12v battery is too weak to flip the relay.
>because the 12v battery is too weak to flip the relay.
Which should seldom if ever happen, at least not like ICE batteries. Even though the relay is "huge", the whole point of a relay is that it requires very little current to drive the coil.
Those “relays” have tiny 28 AWG wires, they use small motors and nothing like the 200 cranking amp starter motors.
True but they still exist and if your 12V battery is dead, you're still fricked. Funny thing is you could probably use a cell phone battery to flip the relay if you could get the current to the right place. I'd be extra funny if they hid a crank in the frunk for such situations.
except that telas doesnt use the voltage converter to charge the battery all that often, resulting in most of the electronics in the car running off the battery for extended periods of time which actually fricking shreads shit ass lead acid batteries that are mostly designed to start and thats it and also fail in 1.1 years
lead acid, like li-ion, will not last long on deep discharge. It sounds like tesla is just stupid, and possibly malfeasant.
you are also talking about batteries for starting cars—almost certainly tesla is smart enough to use “deep cycle” lead acid batteries instead of regular starting batteries? ok, maybe they’re not that smart.
lead acid in backup systems, alarms, and cars easily last 10+ years if charged properly.
they also do much better in cold weather than li-ion. Ni-Cd also does better in cold weather.
tesla probably has ‘all the world is california’ syndrome.
>you are also talking about batteries for starting cars
do you have the faintest idea what tesla is
5 months ago
Anonymous
> what’s a tesla?
we’re talking about the other battery system that drives some of the electronics and sensors, it’s traditionally 12 V. Its not the traction motor supply, which is 300 to 400 V on a tesla.
Note that some other car mfgs use an 800 V standard for traction, which actually saves money by like a factor of 100×. Tesla is looking for something—setting the stage—that they can blame when they start to go under.
apparently tesla discovered that if you put 4 times as many cells with a quarter of the capacity it will be 4 times the voltage when connected in series.
The fact that they did this is hilarious. And yes, part of the reason was so they can ‘daisy chain’ everything together. Good for reliability. Now all they have to do is invent Aluminum wire to complete their Xification of Tesla.
>almost certainly tesla is smart enough to use “deep cycle” lead acid batteries
let me tell you a little problem.
currently in the US, there is only two competing lead acid battery manufacturers. They make grade A batteries and they make grade B batteries.
Both are not traditional deep cycle, grade B is made with thinner leaded plates using a cheap process that damages the battery slowly
grade A less so because it's built better. If you see a 5 year warranty on a battery, it is almost always the grade A variant, because the grade B lasts only 2 years.
between both factories, none of them make deep cycle batteries in automotive sizes.
none
the batteries you are buying that say marine/deep cycle are just lying, the only difference between them and a normal one next to them is they have a marine style terminal.
Tesla came from a startup that just cowboyed shit. they went down to the local auto parts store and bought a honda civic battery for their first prototypes because it was the smallest one on the shelves. This was the size battery they stuck with out to production and through many years of manufacturing.
this battery size is unavailable as a real deep cycle, and I have my suspicion starting 2017 that they started using grade B in their model 3 because they are rather notorious for failing in around a year.
It's all a moot point because Tesla has worked very hard in the last 5 years to uncowboy their shit up and go back into these things and re-engineer shit properly. Now all the cars have LiFePO4 batteries and they pushed an update to the older cars to rework how it charges and discharges the lead acid batteries to make them last longer.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Good info.
Although, to go to 48 V, is easy, everything already has DC/DC buck converters on it, some can even handle multiple voltages already, so that’s possibly a non-issue.
Second, all they have to do battery-wise is use 4 of picrel (which are as common as dirt) and problem solved.
My APC already uses 4 of these, it’s a rack-mount jobbie.
Moving to 48 V can (and should have) been done silently without all the ‘look at me, I invented 48 V’ talk, and ‘48 V is better’ talk.
For those not convinced they were a scam company yet, this will definitely leave no room for doubt.
The fact that they didn’t realize this was a non-issue (engineering wise) drives home the fact that the company is run by Marketing MBA types, and that engineering is secondary, or, more likely, tertiary.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Expect the first three years of Cybertruck to be just as bad (or worse) as the first three of every other model. Tesla treats its early adopters as buy-in beta testers, not customers getting a finished product.
In some ways.
Michael Moore put out his alleged documentary in 1989 and he forgot to mention a couple things. Like the union had negotiated salaries so high the company actually LOST 2 thousand dollars on every car produced. They had to shut down and reopen in Mexico.
Of course it didnt help that execs were paying themselves multimillion dollar bonuses the entire time the company lost money. Which is also shitty and dangerously greedy.
well, kinda. Even without the executive bonus, even if the executives did not get paid, the union salaries were costing the company 2000 dollars per car, and by that I mean they were LOSING 2000 dollars on every car they produced.
Because of supply/demand/equilibrium you cannot sell a product for more than a customer is willing to pay for it. And GM cant just charge whatever it takes to make a profit. At some point they hit peak sale price and they have to produce a product for under that or they dont make ANY money. What usually happens when prices get to that point and stay there is a supplier goes out of business, or another way of saying a player leaves the market. Now you have much less supply, the prices shoots up for a little while. If prices get too high and stay there a bunch of people try to enter the market, supply increases and prices come down and most of the little guys cant compete so they disappear right away. I cant think of too many periods when the American automobile market was perfectly balanced.
If you mean 80's toyota keep in mind they were making a superior product for less money, so, you cannot say they never had issues, since they stayed in business and did not have mass layoffs we can guess they RESOLVED their issues instead of ass fricking their own company. I heard stories the executives never take bonuses and the workers occasionally take pay cuts in order to save the business. Maybe Japan is just not as fricked up as America.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>I heard stories the executives never take bonuses and the workers occasionally take pay cuts in order to save the business. Maybe Japan is just not as fricked up as America.
Japanese business culture is much much different than America. Personally I think it is superior. The japs aim to have near 100% employment even at the detriment of not having work to do.
Their businesses regularly will give employees the option of leaving or accepting a pay cut. Many employees very much take pay cuts for obvious reasons.
In America, business schools very commonly say that employee pay cuts are worse than lay offs because employees get lazy. Japan clearly isn't having this problem but no one asks why the likes at Harvard business school say this shit.
Japan has its problems but looking out for their people isn't one of them.
No point. Thats why internal combustion gasoline engines are the only viable option. There are enough stations. Hydrogen internal combustion engines are, likewise, not viable because there are not enough hydrogen stations.
In addtion, there is not even enough electricity generation now, or planned, to charge the equivalent number of electric vehicles now served by gasoline combustion engines.
You completely missed the point, which is the norm here on stupidchan.
Human civilization existed for approximately 30 thousand years before we had gasoline stations. They did not become necessary until the gasoline internal combustion engine arrived. They are only about 130 years old, barely. And because we are burning up crude oil at a ridiculous rate, they also will not be around much longer. People had to install giant tanks in the ground then build pumps above them. It was expensive and a huge pain in the ass.
People will have to figure out some other solution when we run out of petroleum. If it isnt electric cars it will be something else.
> demand creates supply
Your argument ignores the fact that we don’t even need cars since all the hyperloops went live in 2020… oh wait.. that got pushed back to “never”
You can have a manual charge setup like those crank phone chargers but you can't shit out petrol
I bet if they had a pedal setup under every seat four people going at it could charge this thing in an hour or two
Have you ever tried pushing a car on the street? Even with four people, it's not easy. Now add a 1000 lbs battery. Imagine going around the block a few times, or even going at highway speeds, getting it up a ramp... That is the amount of energy required to charge the battery.
yeah four people can easily push a car they can't bring it up to highway speeds because they themselves can't go highway speed >add a 1000lb battery
you also subtract the combustion engine and it's fuel tank
>easily
Bullshit. On the flattest of surfaces, you could fast walk while pushing, but you could not even reach jogging speeds. The slightest of inclines will get at you. You would be unable to get it up a curb.
>Engine weight
Fair point but an engine is not close to 1000 lbs and the gas tank is insignificant.
pretty sure i've pushed a small hatchback on tarred flat surface to walking speeds you benefit from inertia too
but it doesn't matter because it's like you've stored all the pushing you need now you just use it not like pushing it in real time
5 months ago
Anonymous
The keyword is walking speed. Then you let go of the car and it coasts for 100m before stopping. You might as well just park the car and walk, you'll get where you want faster and less exhausted.
5 months ago
Anonymous
i doubt it >stored energy of 4 people in a reservoir that can be deployed at will to conquer climbs etc >wheels which are efficient at motion rather than legs which are inefficient and can't make use of inertia and downhill
5 months ago
Anonymous
So you're going to have four people sitting awkwardly in a car, pedalling to charge the battery barely enough to get it to walking speed, minus conversion losses, and you will claim that it beats walking? Dude. You can't go faster than ~30 kph on a bike that weighs a fraction of your body weight. What makes you think you could go as fast in a contraption that weighs several times the combined weight of for adults?
5 months ago
Anonymous
it's only awkward for creature comfort types and we're also not going to have none of that bs it's going to be lean and mean just what you need
you can go much faster on a bike >inb4 not for fit person
well you're gonna have to get fit under this new regime >What makes you think you could go as fast
stored energy
5 months ago
Anonymous
>only awkward for creature comfort types
You mean "everybody".
It's more reasonable to say that you can charge it with solar or wind or hydro, or a petrol generator at worst. An average human can put out maybe 150W, athletes around 300-400W. The car battery is 60-90kWh, with a Tesla model 3's consumption around 15kWh/100km, one hour of pedal charging by the average human gets you about 1km range. 4 average people pedaling gets you 4km range in an hour. I guess it's better than nothing, but it's not exactly a great solution.
lets say there is a 20km downhill slope you think tesla could produce 20km worth of it's needed power just cruising downhill
i must be silly for thinking electric power just in terms of angular velocity of the coil moving inside the generator
Forgot to mention the 48 are cranapples and the 12 are big granny smith, so you’re getting way less in weight with the 48 apples.
But I think 3 year olds wouldn’t care. Neither would elon musk fans.
At 4, you realize that a dime is worth more than a nickel, despite the size difference.
Availability of a parts ecosystem. The automotive world has wanted to move to 48V for a long time but no one wanted to bite the bullet and retool for it, much less deal with all the supplier headaches. Tesla has far less legacy infrastructure and does lots of their part manufacturing inhouse, so they're better positioned to make the change.
> ethernet like
He’s probably going to “invent” either token ring or atm. Again.
CANbus speeds are in the 1Mbit/s range. Ethernet is over 1Gbit/s. Even with the added overhead of tcp/ip transmission layers you are far ahead with Ethernet. CANbus has the advantage of being a two wire system and being more robust for the application, but you should remove yourself for the gene pool. Your posts are less than worthless.
> faster is always better
I need OC-768 redundant fiber links to each brake because I’m a performance driver and have Z rated tires.
Next year, every sensor will have it’s own battery and communicate over WiMax using XML. Progress!
I know, but the Leaf can do highway speeds and only has 1 motor.
I can do 4 motors; I really dont wanna do voltages that could easily kill people.
A lower cruise would be acceptable too. as long as I could get around town without lines of traffic forming behind me. Most roads here are 35-40mph speed limit
In aviation they use an Ethernet based bus for avionics just fine. It's a deterministic version.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics_Full-Duplex_Switched_Ethernet
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTEthernet
These replaced stuff similar to CAN and serial so it's funny you acting all tough boy over them.
> ARNIC
That’s quite unlike consumer ethernet.
Also, the needs of an Airbus A380 are quite different from that of a haphazardly assembled electric car.
They also used aluminum wiring, and we know how that cheap-out faired in vehicles already.
I remember when I was a kid, we were looking under the hood of our car and I asked my dad “why did they make that hose out of paper?”
He replied, “if they can save 25 cents, they will”
>phoneposter
opinion discarded
but what do they use it for?
until relatively recently i understood most planes operated with cables and pulleys under the floor it wasnt computers controlling the surfaces at all.
can is very simple which is why it was used so much for cars, old car ecus dont need to be ghz 64 bit often 8 bit mhz is plenty to do the simple tasks ecus are assigned. the cpu in the ugly new dashboard ipads probably have 10x the processing power as the rest of the car. ethernet here would be overkill. in a tesla where it needs to be online to drive it, it makes sense.
as cars move towards self driving and every node is a supercomputer doing ai vision or lidar rather than a potato measuring the temperature then ethernet is a no brainer. (i personally have no interest in such a car, i expect a few people feel similarly)
> every node is a supercomputer
This means even lower bandwidth is necessary because it doesn’t need to send all the raw sensor and image data to a main computer over a high bandwidth link… it just needs to say “idiot on a bike detected on the left at 24.3 yds” which is code 1187,24.3.
IIRC, some German automobiles already have a hybrid 48v/12v system.
>12v anywhere
dumb
also apparently the Tesla system replaces canbus with a more Ethernet like protocol.
>also apparently the Tesla system replaces canbus with a more Ethernet like protocol
which should have happened 20 years ago. i hate diagnosing can bus issues, where one bad device takes down the whole bus.
wtf are they doing poe or something? jesus
a bad node is independant of the protocol?
canbus is nice for realtime priority comms, ethernet cant do that.
>karen spills her pumpkin spice down the center console
>power seat module shorts out
>sends either constant 12v or noise down the bus
>ecm throws 17 codes for every module losing communication
>have to disconnect each module until i find the one that restores the bus
ethernet will make this much less likely to occur.
You could do point to point CAN links as well, cost cutting is why they don't (and it would be an insane protocol to use, but I digress). I don't do automotive stuff but having point to point 100 base ethernet to every single seat module or light module or wherever you would need CAN sounds expensive.
More volts = more better, don't question it
How will Ethernet make that less likely? If you run it as a shared media network with a hub, one noisy device can sure as hell frick everything up. If you use switching, you have another device (or devices) in the middle of communications that can fail in any number of ways.
do they still use ethernet in bus topology in vehicles?
Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module. They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
At least one guy here knows about media segments and topology, and immediately grasped the same issue.
You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked.
I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
Name 3 consumer cars that have CANbus wheel speed sensors frickwits. Not everything has to be part of your IoT.
Yeah and I wonder what happens when the CANbus master goes bad? Ever heard of economy of scale? An Ethernet interface is produced thousands of times more than any CANbus interface is produced.
>Why the frick wpuld they install a fricking gig or 10 gig NIC in your brake module.
Ethernet is down compatible, the brake module can have an ancient 10Mbit/s link, hell you can bitbang that thru GPIO in firmware if you have to, no dedicated hardware needed.
>They would do like 10mbit transmit and receive shit over whatever wires they always used and oh look it's fricking canbus.
Canbus wouldn't be able to talk to the 10 gig ethernet switch at the core of the system.
>You either have a ring where any one node can fail/and or inject noise into the ring because they are building everything as cheap as possible on purpose, or you have a better ring that won't fricking do that and maybe it can throw a severe error code and run the ring backwards to keep data going when a node is bad, or finally you can put a switch in and every node is on its own media segment... but now if the switch goes bad you're fricked.
>I dunno, switch is probably best but they'd want to charge $5000 to replace it and they'd bury it somewhere stupid like behind the timing chain beca7se they're modern car engineers. Press F to spit on them.
Yeah cause redundant routing in networking hasn't been a thing for literal decades with available, cheap and reliable hard&software. OH WAIT.
You're so low IQ you cause me physical pain.
Tesla is leveraging their vertical integration to completely sidestep suppliers being morons to save costs on a scale everyone else in the business can only dream about.
Tesla and the chinks will be the only EV makers capable of building cheap mass market vehicles for 10-15 years until the rest of the industry catches up.
And god knows where tesla will be then since they show no signs of slowing down their insane rate of improvement.
>ring topology isn't redundant enough for this guy
You.made.most.of.my own points though. Yes ethernet is robust and cheap, so is whatever the frick they're using. The reason it sucks now is because everything that can possibly be on the bus is, and it's implemented badly so your brake light fails which causes everything else to fail because they didnsuch a shit job implementing their ring/bus/whatever.
Which wouldn't change just because it's ethernet, they'd frick that up too
Take your ADHD meds and shut the frick up.
>No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino
ESP32 is a SoC family.
Arduino is an italian company as well as a name for a family of µC boards using microcontrollers from atmel to build a DIY ecosystem.
>and other homegamer grade shit.
Both ESP32's and Atmels AVRs have been used extensively for decades in professional products.
>These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips
Nobody, absolutely fricking nobody, produces chips specifically for DIY. The market is way too tiny and a dedicated mask set and production run with validation would be prohibitively expensive.
No, the DIY people get whatever is made for industry applications.
>and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use.
There are plenty of automotive chips with ethernet, and the chip does not necessarily need to be exposed directly to a dirty powerbus. A couple external SMD caps and diodes won't exactly be prohibitive.
>No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about
Until now.
>and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything.
>t. renesas
I can already tell you work in marketing.
t. EE at R&S
>EE
Stop beingnsonshit at your job. Legendary hardware from the 90s is still here because you're highly dishonorable. Great shame to you and your damoly.
niqqa i don't know what you've been told but i don't speak klingon
> ESPs and Ardiunos used in professional products.
We’re talking about cars with systems that could cause death, or worse if they malfunction. Not breadmakers.
> Until now
Looking at the cybertruck crash test, I fully expect to open up a new tesla and find it full of chinese knockoff bluepills running micropython.
I thought all the Radio Shacks had closed.
Thanks for being one of the few other sensible people in this discussion. Ethernet is a great protocol for networking between computers, and can be made redundant with additional cabling and complexity (all of which can still fail), but the underlying problem is that the current bus network in cars is overloaded with shit that doesn't need to be on there. Using Ethernet as the layer 1/2 standard for communication wouldn't fix that.
>ethernet will make this much less likely to occur.
no it wont
>Ethernet is not tcp/ip
it basically is
> and priority
no they cant
>it basically is
how?
what protocols can you use over ethernet then?
1) tcp
2) udp
fieldbus ip is basically udp
modbus ip is basically tcp
>what protocols can you use over ethernet then?
TCP and UDP are layer 4, Ethernet is layer 1 or 2. So neither TCP or UDP are used over Ethernet.
lol
yeah having a bunch of switches to negate collision domain sounds like a good idea, what you want in rts is to add latency wherever you can. can bus priority is inherent in address signalling. thats one of the reasons its so widely adopted.
>Rockwell Automation and Cisco Converged Plant wide Ethernet guide has latency added from 8 to 16 switches measured in usec.
>He thinks more than one central switch would be needed in a single car.
Please please have a nice day.
CANbus speeds are in the 1Mbit/s range. Ethernet is over 1Gbit/s. Even with the added overhead of tcp/ip transmission layers you are far ahead with Ethernet. CANbus has the advantage of being a two wire system and being more robust for the application, but you should remove yourself for the gene pool. Your posts are less than worthless.
is not tcp/ip
>it basically is
No it isn't. t. journeyman data tech
>it basically is
Search Wikipedia Ethernet article for TCP. No hits. Search IP; one hit as an example of what can be done over Ethernet.
So, it basically is not, unless you choose for it to be.
Priority is handled by QoS in the router idiot. Nothing is wrong with TCP/UDT. Rockwell Automation does CIP safety over Ethernet just fine. Noise rejection from cat6 cable is good enough for nearly any application. That being said CANbus is fully fleshed out for automotive applications and I could give a frick less what other information they need to pump over to the iPad they strapped to my dash. Give me my voltage, temp and oil pressure gauges back.
Ethernet is not tcp/ip. Most common industrial buses are ethernet these days, with real-time and priority, even the safety stuff goes over ethernet-ip/profinet/ethercat
> ethernet
I’m sure there’s other guys like you that never heard of RS422 and RS485 but have a 3D printer and assume they’re an “industrial manufacturer” because you made some figurines for your D&D buddies.
The point is, CAN is already built into all the microprocessors used in teslas, and virtually all cars, there’s nothing that can be improved on that purpose built standard. I understand you’re gaming pee cee uses ethernet, and that’s what you understand, but it’s not really appropriate for cars.
>The point is, CAN is already built into all the microprocessors used in teslas, and virtually all cars,
Yeah and it's so hard to find µCs with build in ethernet.... OH WAIT.
>there’s nothing that can be improved on that purpose built standard.
The initial CAN spec is from 1986.
The latest CAN spec is from 1991.
Max speed is 1MBit/s.
Chips for 100Mbit/s Ethernet cost single digit cents if bought in bulk.
Microcontrollers already containing 100Mbit/s or 1GBit/s Ethernet controllers cost double digit cent, the same as µCs with CAN inside, while being 100 to 1000x faster.
CAN is too slow for multiple applications inside a tesla, so next to a CAN bus there are various other connections.
Now all these connections have been replaced and run over ethernet, and CAN is also just routed over ethernet.
Ethernet is ancient, robust, and ubiquitous. Chips that can do Ethernet are the default.
>I understand you’re gaming pee cee uses ethernet, and that’s what you understand, but it’s not really appropriate for cars.
I understand that you should go unclog toilets instead of discussing things way above your paygrade.
No, you’re talking about things like ESP32 and Arduino and other homegamer grade shit. These are not used in cars, there’s high-reliability versions of of these chips and they all come with CANbus because they are specifically designed and hardened for automotive use. No car has ever used the things you’re blathering on about, and will never be ‘bit banging’ anything.
t. renesas
holy frick you guys are idiots
>redundant routing paths on real time systems lmao u suck enjoy your 2+ seconds convergence
>no clue what ethernet is or how it works with automation
then theres this guy with his armchair bullshit drivel (ethernet is a protocol hurr durr canbus is too saturated ethernet cant fix it holy shit lol)
meanwhile in reality we use hundreds of devices, in real time, for safety applications, on ethernet but not using tcp. its called ethercat. we also use hsr on ring topologies for 0ms convergence where we use tcp/udp protocols. these are 17000hp mining hoists, people carriers, drives, cncs etc. no one in serious industry uses arduino. its trash and so is the community for anything production or industrial. good for hs kids and small uni projects, and of course unsecured smart plugs lmao. avr products have a better rep but not with arduino libs lmao.
not only are you guys pendantic morons but you feed off eachothers misunderstanding of such communication technologies meant for controls and real time applications. your not gonna find socs running micropython in a tesla, youre gonna find sbcs and gpus running python in a tesla which is far, far worse you fricking idiots.
>no one in serious industry uses arduino
Kek, there are a lot more arduinos being used by "engineers" to fix problems in factories and other jobsites around the world than anyone will ever admit.
When you see an arduino being used in someones thesis project, it means that they will be grabbing it as a crutch the first time they need to solve a problem in the real world.
Yeah, cheap hacks. I hope they put their name on them so we can come and find them when it fails and the real engineers show up.
Tesla often uses the modern version of the legendary motorola 68HC12, a cross between a 6808 and a 6809 (from your Tandy CoCo computer)
hc12s were also used on space shuttles. theres nothing wrong with microcontrollers. its the implementation thats critical. micros should never run scripts and need to be engineered properly to be successful. scripts are easy but generally unstable as well as terrible practice. the problem is zoomers and webdevs who wouldn't know what an exception or an interlock is if it fricked them in the ass, just like how boeing killed all those people with shitty instrumentation programming.
Don't forget that it was the FAA who allowed Boeing to SELF-CERTIFY their new MCAS system, and that many of the highest administrative positions in the FAA have been filled by retired Boeing C-suite executives and managers. There's more than just bad software and hardware engineering going into those crashes; it was complete bureaucratic failure of multiple organizations at every level of the safety review process, by both the government and Boeing's own internal vetting system. The corruption involved eclipses even the Deepwater Horizon BP Gulf oil spill incident.
arduino is software not hw. arduino libs SUCK BALLS and are useless outside of blink examples. if youve ever programmed one youd know this. there is nothing wrong with using an avr but frick you if you use any of those shit libs outside of a proven example. why? because those fricking hippy wanna be programmers made a shitton of libs but never reported the resources they used, completely negating any actual usefulness outside an example. arduino is about as educational as a crackerjack box and is by no means a crutch more of a false sense of intelligence. we actually use avrs and pics to count gamma rays reliably but arduino should be eradicated outside of a classroom.
You are full of a particularly repugnant form of bullshit.
go on then
im an EE at a company that makes egg sorting machines.
> new machine, some newbie straight out of school tries to convince the oldgay to use an Arduino for a few tasks, instead of one of
the two SPARTAN's onboard
> oldgay points to me
> "he can do that analog for half the cost and a quarter of the real estate on the PCB"
now im to do a bunch of analog sensor processing, schaling and log to lin conversion and re-schaling, filtering because an embedded engineer was making a point.
my opinion on arduino is also somewhat low, its like a normal micro controller with down syndrome.
> arduino
They’re begging us to but a ‘t’ in front of it aren’t they?
The ‘A’ in AVR stands for ‘Alf’ the master’s sudent thet came up with the architecture. They should have called it FVR so that ‘F’ refers to the grade he got on it.
Just build a Geoff.
This article makes no sense.
Teslas run around 350 volts.
The rest is inconsequential support electronics
There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
They have no idea about cars, but they had some linux weenies which is why it uses ethernet. Also so they can ssh into your car and disable it when they decide to make left turns a subscription service.
The tesla basically uses technology lifted from PCs, of which billions of them… including the GPUs run on 12 V now.
I’m guessing musk is even dumber than than what he’s already proven.
all current electric cars use 12v for the non high voltage electronics. So a current Tesla has a 12v battery in the frunk. Car manufacturers have wanted to go to higher voltage buses for years as 12v vastly increases their wiring costs.
pic related
> vastly
Most savings would be realized by putting the 12 V battery closer to the main current draws, namely the main computer. Everything else, like sensors, is bugger all and uses 28 AWG. The savings going to 48 V is miniscule. The losses incurred by re-standardizing would be enormous.
The germans tried to change the standard to 48 V decades ago in order to monopolize boutique batteries instead of getting a standard one for 1/10 the the cost from 100s of manufacturers. The math was done, and we b***hslapped that idea back to whence it came so fast it was like Nebuchadnezzar came back to life.
City busses are 24 V. On larger scales it make more sense, on tesla, it doesn’t. Look into the physics of why they can’t make a tesla “jet” plane.
As I said, like all musk’s ideas, this scam is nothing new, he just copied it from history. He’s probably knows less about manufacturing than anybody alive right now.
tslaQ delusion really is flat-earther tier
>have no knowledge about anything related to cars or electronics whatsoever
>don't even read the article you're responding to
>act like a smartass anyway
>This article makes no sense.
>Teslas run around 350 volts.
>The rest is inconsequential support electronics
inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
>There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
Electric seat heating
Electric Window heating
Electric Fans
Electric Steering assist
Electric AC compressor motor
And, new in cybertruck, electric drive by wire steering (5 HP motors)
77% reduction in cabling thanks to moving from 12V to 48V.
You're dumb as frick.
> inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
Lol, the battery we’re talking about in the tesla is a separate 400 Wh lead acid battery and you’re talking about the traction motors which are served by the main battery pack. You’re not even playing the same game let alone being in the same ballpark.
At 200 A, the 12 V battery would kill itself after a few minutes, and the newer 12 V batteries in teslas are only rated at around 7 A max draw.
So yes, saving 77% of .0001% of the cost of the vehicle. In fact the new 12 V batteries in teslas are specialized li-ion already, and are impossible to source from anywhere but tesla.
Now they’re starting the “more volts, more better” scam just like power tools did. Dewalt is up to 60 V now, up from 12 V about 20 years ago.
>
>Teslas run around 350 volts.
>The rest is inconsequential support electronics
inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
>There’s no starter motor required, which is 12 volts.
Electric seat heating
Electric Window heating
Electric Fans
Electric Steering assist
Electric AC compressor motor
And, new in cybertruck, electric drive by wire steering (5 HP motors)
77% reduction in cabling thanks to moving from 12V to 48V.
You're dumb as frick.
>> inconsequential electronics which draw 200-300 Amps.
>Lol, the battery we’re talking about in the tesla is a separate 400 Wh lead acid battery and you’re talking about the traction motors which are served by the main battery pack. You’re not even playing the same game let alone being in the same ballpark.
>At 200 A, the 12 V battery would kill itself after a few minutes, and the newer 12 V batteries in teslas are only rated at around 7 A max draw.
The main pack provides 400V / 800V, which is not routed around the car for steering motors or seat heaters for safety reasons.
Not all 12V consumers are feed from the tiny 12V battery, main pack voltage is converted down to 12V. This requires hundreds of meters of wiring, which has to transfer 200-300A in total to various components.
You seem quite clueless in general mixing up terms you don't understand, nobody was talking about traction motors.
>So yes, saving 77% of .0001% of the cost of the vehicle.
No, these are very substancial savings.
>In fact the new 12 V batteries in teslas are specialized li-ion already, and are impossible to source from anywhere but tesla.
These batteries are also completely irrelevant to the ongoing conversation.
>Now they’re starting the “more volts, more better” scam just like power tools did. Dewalt is up to 60 V now, up from 12 V about 20 years ago.
You do not understand the most basic law of electric systems, stop parttaking in this discussion.
Depends on what you consider a starter. There's a huge relay that disengages the high voltage system when the vehicle is off. In order to start the vehicle, that relay must be flipped, which requires a 12v power supply. You can have a full high voltage battery pack and not be able to go anywhere because the 12v battery is too weak to flip the relay.
>because the 12v battery is too weak to flip the relay.
Which should seldom if ever happen, at least not like ICE batteries. Even though the relay is "huge", the whole point of a relay is that it requires very little current to drive the coil.
True but they still exist and if your 12V battery is dead, you're still fricked. Funny thing is you could probably use a cell phone battery to flip the relay if you could get the current to the right place. I'd be extra funny if they hid a crank in the frunk for such situations.
Those “relays” have tiny 28 AWG wires, they use small motors and nothing like the 200 cranking amp starter motors.
except that telas doesnt use the voltage converter to charge the battery all that often, resulting in most of the electronics in the car running off the battery for extended periods of time which actually fricking shreads shit ass lead acid batteries that are mostly designed to start and thats it and also fail in 1.1 years
lead acid, like li-ion, will not last long on deep discharge. It sounds like tesla is just stupid, and possibly malfeasant.
you are also talking about batteries for starting cars—almost certainly tesla is smart enough to use “deep cycle” lead acid batteries instead of regular starting batteries? ok, maybe they’re not that smart.
lead acid in backup systems, alarms, and cars easily last 10+ years if charged properly.
they also do much better in cold weather than li-ion. Ni-Cd also does better in cold weather.
tesla probably has ‘all the world is california’ syndrome.
>you are also talking about batteries for starting cars
do you have the faintest idea what tesla is
> what’s a tesla?
we’re talking about the other battery system that drives some of the electronics and sensors, it’s traditionally 12 V. Its not the traction motor supply, which is 300 to 400 V on a tesla.
Note that some other car mfgs use an 800 V standard for traction, which actually saves money by like a factor of 100×. Tesla is looking for something—setting the stage—that they can blame when they start to go under.
apparently tesla discovered that if you put 4 times as many cells with a quarter of the capacity it will be 4 times the voltage when connected in series.
The fact that they did this is hilarious. And yes, part of the reason was so they can ‘daisy chain’ everything together. Good for reliability. Now all they have to do is invent Aluminum wire to complete their Xification of Tesla.
>almost certainly tesla is smart enough to use “deep cycle” lead acid batteries
let me tell you a little problem.
currently in the US, there is only two competing lead acid battery manufacturers. They make grade A batteries and they make grade B batteries.
Both are not traditional deep cycle, grade B is made with thinner leaded plates using a cheap process that damages the battery slowly
grade A less so because it's built better. If you see a 5 year warranty on a battery, it is almost always the grade A variant, because the grade B lasts only 2 years.
between both factories, none of them make deep cycle batteries in automotive sizes.
none
the batteries you are buying that say marine/deep cycle are just lying, the only difference between them and a normal one next to them is they have a marine style terminal.
Tesla came from a startup that just cowboyed shit. they went down to the local auto parts store and bought a honda civic battery for their first prototypes because it was the smallest one on the shelves. This was the size battery they stuck with out to production and through many years of manufacturing.
this battery size is unavailable as a real deep cycle, and I have my suspicion starting 2017 that they started using grade B in their model 3 because they are rather notorious for failing in around a year.
It's all a moot point because Tesla has worked very hard in the last 5 years to uncowboy their shit up and go back into these things and re-engineer shit properly. Now all the cars have LiFePO4 batteries and they pushed an update to the older cars to rework how it charges and discharges the lead acid batteries to make them last longer.
Good info.
Although, to go to 48 V, is easy, everything already has DC/DC buck converters on it, some can even handle multiple voltages already, so that’s possibly a non-issue.
Second, all they have to do battery-wise is use 4 of picrel (which are as common as dirt) and problem solved.
My APC already uses 4 of these, it’s a rack-mount jobbie.
Moving to 48 V can (and should have) been done silently without all the ‘look at me, I invented 48 V’ talk, and ‘48 V is better’ talk.
For those not convinced they were a scam company yet, this will definitely leave no room for doubt.
The fact that they didn’t realize this was a non-issue (engineering wise) drives home the fact that the company is run by Marketing MBA types, and that engineering is secondary, or, more likely, tertiary.
Expect the first three years of Cybertruck to be just as bad (or worse) as the first three of every other model. Tesla treats its early adopters as buy-in beta testers, not customers getting a finished product.
its fear and posturing. if they were secure they wouldn't need to flex.
See Also: Donald Trump
Rent free
deep thoughts
>that giant title worded like a guide for dummies book
i bet its written in a very condescending language too
>your boss will never give you the task of rewriting your manuals in a snarky, sarcastic tone to send to competitors
why even have a job
How's the mission to mars coming along, Ellen?
Auto unions have ruined American car manufacturing
In some ways.
Michael Moore put out his alleged documentary in 1989 and he forgot to mention a couple things. Like the union had negotiated salaries so high the company actually LOST 2 thousand dollars on every car produced. They had to shut down and reopen in Mexico.
Of course it didnt help that execs were paying themselves multimillion dollar bonuses the entire time the company lost money. Which is also shitty and dangerously greedy.
It's almost like the execs were taking way too much pay and blaming it on the unions.
well, kinda. Even without the executive bonus, even if the executives did not get paid, the union salaries were costing the company 2000 dollars per car, and by that I mean they were LOSING 2000 dollars on every car they produced.
Because of supply/demand/equilibrium you cannot sell a product for more than a customer is willing to pay for it. And GM cant just charge whatever it takes to make a profit. At some point they hit peak sale price and they have to produce a product for under that or they dont make ANY money. What usually happens when prices get to that point and stay there is a supplier goes out of business, or another way of saying a player leaves the market. Now you have much less supply, the prices shoots up for a little while. If prices get too high and stay there a bunch of people try to enter the market, supply increases and prices come down and most of the little guys cant compete so they disappear right away. I cant think of too many periods when the American automobile market was perfectly balanced.
Yet Toyota had no such issues.
If you mean 80's toyota keep in mind they were making a superior product for less money, so, you cannot say they never had issues, since they stayed in business and did not have mass layoffs we can guess they RESOLVED their issues instead of ass fricking their own company. I heard stories the executives never take bonuses and the workers occasionally take pay cuts in order to save the business. Maybe Japan is just not as fricked up as America.
>I heard stories the executives never take bonuses and the workers occasionally take pay cuts in order to save the business. Maybe Japan is just not as fricked up as America.
Japanese business culture is much much different than America. Personally I think it is superior. The japs aim to have near 100% employment even at the detriment of not having work to do.
Their businesses regularly will give employees the option of leaving or accepting a pay cut. Many employees very much take pay cuts for obvious reasons.
In America, business schools very commonly say that employee pay cuts are worse than lay offs because employees get lazy. Japan clearly isn't having this problem but no one asks why the likes at Harvard business school say this shit.
Japan has its problems but looking out for their people isn't one of them.
Nobody who thinks that angular abomination is a good idea is worth listening to about engineering.
What's the fricking point if there's not enough charging stations?
whats the point of internal combustion if theres not enough gasoline stations?
No point. Thats why internal combustion gasoline engines are the only viable option. There are enough stations. Hydrogen internal combustion engines are, likewise, not viable because there are not enough hydrogen stations.
In addtion, there is not even enough electricity generation now, or planned, to charge the equivalent number of electric vehicles now served by gasoline combustion engines.
You completely missed the point, which is the norm here on stupidchan.
Human civilization existed for approximately 30 thousand years before we had gasoline stations. They did not become necessary until the gasoline internal combustion engine arrived. They are only about 130 years old, barely. And because we are burning up crude oil at a ridiculous rate, they also will not be around much longer. People had to install giant tanks in the ground then build pumps above them. It was expensive and a huge pain in the ass.
People will have to figure out some other solution when we run out of petroleum. If it isnt electric cars it will be something else.
> demand creates supply
Your argument ignores the fact that we don’t even need cars since all the hyperloops went live in 2020… oh wait.. that got pushed back to “never”
You can have a manual charge setup like those crank phone chargers but you can't shit out petrol
I bet if they had a pedal setup under every seat four people going at it could charge this thing in an hour or two
>I bet if they had a pedal setup under every seat four people going at it could charge this thing in an hour or two
Lmao what? I'm not sure if this is bait or what.
Have you ever tried pushing a car on the street? Even with four people, it's not easy. Now add a 1000 lbs battery. Imagine going around the block a few times, or even going at highway speeds, getting it up a ramp... That is the amount of energy required to charge the battery.
yeah four people can easily push a car they can't bring it up to highway speeds because they themselves can't go highway speed
>add a 1000lb battery
you also subtract the combustion engine and it's fuel tank
>easily
Bullshit. On the flattest of surfaces, you could fast walk while pushing, but you could not even reach jogging speeds. The slightest of inclines will get at you. You would be unable to get it up a curb.
>Engine weight
Fair point but an engine is not close to 1000 lbs and the gas tank is insignificant.
pretty sure i've pushed a small hatchback on tarred flat surface to walking speeds you benefit from inertia too
but it doesn't matter because it's like you've stored all the pushing you need now you just use it not like pushing it in real time
The keyword is walking speed. Then you let go of the car and it coasts for 100m before stopping. You might as well just park the car and walk, you'll get where you want faster and less exhausted.
i doubt it
>stored energy of 4 people in a reservoir that can be deployed at will to conquer climbs etc
>wheels which are efficient at motion rather than legs which are inefficient and can't make use of inertia and downhill
So you're going to have four people sitting awkwardly in a car, pedalling to charge the battery barely enough to get it to walking speed, minus conversion losses, and you will claim that it beats walking? Dude. You can't go faster than ~30 kph on a bike that weighs a fraction of your body weight. What makes you think you could go as fast in a contraption that weighs several times the combined weight of for adults?
it's only awkward for creature comfort types and we're also not going to have none of that bs it's going to be lean and mean just what you need
you can go much faster on a bike
>inb4 not for fit person
well you're gonna have to get fit under this new regime
>What makes you think you could go as fast
stored energy
>only awkward for creature comfort types
You mean "everybody".
A passenger car drive train and fuel tank is significantly lighter than an equivalent electric vehicle dude.
It's more reasonable to say that you can charge it with solar or wind or hydro, or a petrol generator at worst. An average human can put out maybe 150W, athletes around 300-400W. The car battery is 60-90kWh, with a Tesla model 3's consumption around 15kWh/100km, one hour of pedal charging by the average human gets you about 1km range. 4 average people pedaling gets you 4km range in an hour. I guess it's better than nothing, but it's not exactly a great solution.
lets say there is a 20km downhill slope you think tesla could produce 20km worth of it's needed power just cruising downhill
i must be silly for thinking electric power just in terms of angular velocity of the coil moving inside the generator
Tesla's thing isn't really new or innovative.
Their cybertruck is a death trap though, elon is tarded.
It's crystal clear that body design is a cost cutting method for production
why would you want 12V when you could have literally 4 times that many volts
More is better!
yes. would you rather have 12 apples or 48 apples?
If coffee bad for you?
Forgot to mention the 48 are cranapples and the 12 are big granny smith, so you’re getting way less in weight with the 48 apples.
But I think 3 year olds wouldn’t care. Neither would elon musk fans.
At 4, you realize that a dime is worth more than a nickel, despite the size difference.
Is this really what you want powering your car? 9V here, not much different than 12V.
Availability of a parts ecosystem. The automotive world has wanted to move to 48V for a long time but no one wanted to bite the bullet and retool for it, much less deal with all the supplier headaches. Tesla has far less legacy infrastructure and does lots of their part manufacturing inhouse, so they're better positioned to make the change.
parts? that’s a bigger loss to switch away from 12 V. unless you Twitter ‘FY’ math were loosing is ‘winning’
The processors run at 5, 3.3 and 1.1 V and it costs about the same to DC/DC convert it down from 12, 24 or 48 V.
48v>12v
simple as
even delusional whole house DC shills know 12v is ancient garbage
keep in mind Elon said "Ethernet like" so it could mean literally anything
Probably in the idea that it might be using POE, something commonly used for wifi APs, VOIP phones, and security cams.
> ethernet like
He’s probably going to “invent” either token ring or atm. Again.
> faster is always better
I need OC-768 redundant fiber links to each brake because I’m a performance driver and have Z rated tires.
Next year, every sensor will have it’s own battery and communicate over WiMax using XML. Progress!
Munro mentioned it's a ring network, it probably is token ring like. Normally shitty but good in this situation if there's a break in the ring.
I was thinking of building an electric Suzuki Samurai, and using 2x 48V motors for safety reasons. 2 main questions:
1 - will dual 48V be enough for side roads? Would like to comfortably cruise at maybe 45mph / 75kph
2 - could I maintain a high level of safety and use a slightly higher voltage?
For comparison, the Nissan Leaf’s motor is 350 V.
Probably where Tesla stol…. acquired the plans.
I know, but the Leaf can do highway speeds and only has 1 motor.
I can do 4 motors; I really dont wanna do voltages that could easily kill people.
A lower cruise would be acceptable too. as long as I could get around town without lines of traffic forming behind me. Most roads here are 35-40mph speed limit
It's finally happening.
In aviation they use an Ethernet based bus for avionics just fine. It's a deterministic version.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics_Full-Duplex_Switched_Ethernet
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTEthernet
These replaced stuff similar to CAN and serial so it's funny you acting all tough boy over them.
> ARNIC
That’s quite unlike consumer ethernet.
Also, the needs of an Airbus A380 are quite different from that of a haphazardly assembled electric car.
They also used aluminum wiring, and we know how that cheap-out faired in vehicles already.
I remember when I was a kid, we were looking under the hood of our car and I asked my dad “why did they make that hose out of paper?”
He replied, “if they can save 25 cents, they will”
>phoneposter
opinion discarded
but what do they use it for?
until relatively recently i understood most planes operated with cables and pulleys under the floor it wasnt computers controlling the surfaces at all.
can is very simple which is why it was used so much for cars, old car ecus dont need to be ghz 64 bit often 8 bit mhz is plenty to do the simple tasks ecus are assigned. the cpu in the ugly new dashboard ipads probably have 10x the processing power as the rest of the car. ethernet here would be overkill. in a tesla where it needs to be online to drive it, it makes sense.
as cars move towards self driving and every node is a supercomputer doing ai vision or lidar rather than a potato measuring the temperature then ethernet is a no brainer. (i personally have no interest in such a car, i expect a few people feel similarly)
> every node is a supercomputer
This means even lower bandwidth is necessary because it doesn’t need to send all the raw sensor and image data to a main computer over a high bandwidth link… it just needs to say “idiot on a bike detected on the left at 24.3 yds” which is code 1187,24.3.